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Or perhaps old puke from last night's bad drunk. It's still fun to make fun of memories of them worshiping over the porcelain god and speaking in liquid screams. Shot 'o Drambuie anyone?

What happened to all my prayers? Ya know, before I ever heard of The Way, I had no idea my prayers were second rate. Then I got witnessed to and found out I had it all wrong. See, you can't actually talk to God like you talk to everyone else. You have to have this special language, that they speak in the land of Lo Shanta, or God won't have a clue what you're talking about.And, God can't talk back to you either unless you talk to yourself in this new language lots and lots every day. And you have to make a real effort to expand your vocabulary, too, or God will just keep telling you the same stuff over and over again. Heck, I've even heard people say they prayed to God for answers (without the Lo Shanta stuff) and, presto, someone from TWI appeared to invite them to Twig and sign them up for PLAF. But, how can that be if God can't understand your prayers in the first place? So then my question is this: What happened to all those prayers I said before I heard of TWI?

In my former splinter group (River Road Fellowship as led by V. Barnard) we did the whole, "We are a whole world unto ourselves, isolated in a rural area" thing and it $ucked bigtime. Every perception of truth was tightly controlled by the supposed Apostle. It seemed to me like over time things just got more and more warped. Eventually it was heresy to even question such "apostolic" blunders as him teaching the Lord would return in 1997, 2000, uh er...2001, 2002, 2003, 2005, and even the latest that I've heard on the grapevine 2011. Not to mention the oppressive atmosphere which led to such unfortunate things as teenage girls announcing in fellowship that,"I am married to the Christ in Victor." So while they constantly congradulate themselves among themselves it seems pretty obvious to me that they only grew more dangerous and absurd as time went on. And I really don't think they'd openly come around GSC to state their case either, but they'd say it was because of all they "unbelief" here at GSC I'm sure. But I am certain it is because that even though they imagine themselves to be winners that they would simply be confronted for what they really are. I feel justified in my concerns for Caleb and his fellows.

So without further response from Caleb is this how we are to see this exchange end? One young man takes a small step out of the Mississipi swamp and into a place where all his beliefs he must knew may be challeged. He gives an aggressive post with a direct threat while claiming he will be handling questions and conversations for months to come. And as soon as a teany little bit of heat arrives he steps out, omly to never be heard from again. OMG I would like to believe the young man is o.k., but nobody that knows anything is saying! Is he being shut in with a bunch of faithful for a patented TWI style "healing". Are they mad at us enough to foolishly desire to carry out the feelings of anger in the initial post? Is the young man strong enough to realize that our intentions were for his own good and it may be that his "manoGod" is the real villain? But even though v2p2 may well be carrying out that role I do personally feel compassion for a young man who himself has been indoctrinated into his supposed life's purpose. TOO MANY QUESTIONS, TOO FEW ANSWERS. IMO

Maybe irrelevant.

Its not old news for all of us that gave our time & money for a rot hole place called THE WAY INTERNATIONAL that claimed to be a place of god. It wont be old news until no one is standing for or preaching their crap and that land in ohio is washed away . and only then will it be old news !!

Oh for Pete's sake, Oldies..........quit SPINNING and DANCING around the room. Wierwille BETRAYED his committed followers......most notably, the WOWs and the Corps. As a young and naive WOW, catcup's sister came face-to-face with wierwille's sexual motorcoach lusts and, when she refused, she was kicked off the WOW field. And, its well documented on the forums how wierwille went after the Corps women..!!!!! Can't you see the snare...??? With no accountability for his actions......and being in a well-protected, multi-tiered yes-men hierarchy, wierwille's TRUE COLORS CAME FORTH. What he was.......behind closed doors..... was his TRUE CHARACTER. Those public appearances were just showmanship......no more, no less. Wierwille BETRAYED "his" corps........he sold many of us down the river. He couldn't even keep his commitment to us regarding THE CORPS CHALET. He gave it to his top yes-boy......craig. There is a HUGE chasm between............freely serving God without compulsion as opposed to being manipulated by a con-man who winks with his eyes and speaks with his fingers (Proverbs reference). But hey.........if you, Oldies, want to stay deceived about "the good ole way-daze" have at it. Doesn't look like too many folks here are buying what you are attempting to sell.

That last pic, ... is he doing a rendition of The Flying Nun? :B)

RumRunner had a point...... Somehow I'd sorta like to imagine pouring a different kind of ac id on him!

What happened to all your prayers after you heard of twi. I have a feeling the former were more successful than the latter. I'm sure your needs and wants were parallel!

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."-George Santayana. As long as there's one person suffering from twi (an insider, a family member outside cut off from an insider, and so on), twi is relevant to someone. twi is making a lot FEWER people suffer- and was never a large organization to begin with- but to have ONE person suffer is still too many. On the other hand, twi's legacy is an excellent source of suffering, if one wishes to find more modern, up-to-date suffering. Some of its successors have taken "the best" of the tools for suffering still available, and have started over, without apology and without concern they won't end up the same way as the group they left.

for me it really was. instead of hiding from the cult experience, I was then able to start dissecting it and disentangling myself from it. once I got past that, I was then able to start recovering from the damage done by my marriage and my upbringing. still a work in progress :)

The W@ll@ces make it a practice of lying or witholding the truth whenever it serves their purposes. J0:)sephine remained silent in a meeting when M@rk made an accusation against me she knew to be false. However, for her to contradict him in this meeting would have exposed a serious communication flaw between them, so despite me staring at her and waiting for her to speak up, she refused to look at me and remained silent while her husband's false accusations flew. So typical of their behavior. So typical of TWI. Yeah, real quality folks doing a quality job for their god.

victatorship fit in here ?

I think twi even qualifies as a fascist dictatorship.

First off brainfixed I have to tell you. . . I tapped my daughter once on a very padded nappy and promptly burst into tears. She in turn just looked at me then continued on her way. That was our one and only experience with the wooden spoon. I truly never saw anyone beat their child with a wooden spoon or belittle them in a public setting. I was around many parents and children. That is not to say it didn't happen, but not anywhere I ever lived. . . . that I witnessed. . . . You know, TWI wasn't a church, or a social group, or a nice little bible ministry gone bad. . . it was actually a cult. There are some interesting studies done about what happened to those of us involved in TWI. In fact, there is a thread around here called. . . TWI-induced SNAPPING, Detrimental, abrupt personality & self-image change If I knew how to link to it I would, but you can do a search on "Snapping" and easily find it. I think that Waysider brought it up once on another thread called Snapping. It might help you to understand that your mom. . . was actually a victim too. It may seem like she made all her own choices. . . it might be an interesting consideration to learn what might have happened to her in TWI. I am not so sure your mom would have been the same had she joined another church or participated in another ministry. It is quite a reaction to talk about hurling. . . or vomiting out your eyes. . . or beating Jesus in the face. . . it really might be helpful to get some more information on what took place in your Mom's head. Maybe it will help you look at her with a bit more understanding. . . and work through some of your anger. I read your responses to Roy in the doctrinal forum. . . seems you have great capacity for understanding the human condition. . . . Check out those threads!! :)

i don't get what "it" is and what is the deal with "it" anyway?

thank you for your post, THW. I know people who survived the 90's and lcm's fall from grace and who are disillusioned with leaders but who will not leave. some labor under the misapprehension that twi has special revelation, that vpw was an apostle. some believe they have no where else to go. some will not leave their friends. I think some also believe they should stay just because they invested so much and want to keep an eye on their investment. I was disillusioned, completely, when lcm sent out the tape that he'd had "consensual sex" with another man's wife. from that moment on, I waited for real change and only found more corruption as I watched people excuse sin after sin. it still took me until 2006 to be able to leave, because of the hold leaders had on my life. leaving twi, in spite of how I'd come to loathe it, was more terrifying than kicking my ex out after 15 years of marriage and I think it was this website, as well as some innies who talked openly about the corruption and lies of leadership, that made it possible for me to find the strength to leave because left on my own I probably would not have been brave enough.

who knows who cares i know i'm not supposed to say that kind of thing not trying to diminish you. you might be doing a research paper and if you're really trying to figure something out, i'm sorry

This might be true. So was lcm ever under cult mind control?

I think that sums it up nicely...It would appear to some that Whitedove deliberately hijacks threads and leads them into his cul de sac of illogic. It's the same argument over and over...I think this kind of disruption should be unwelcome here.

Ok, you call yourself a "victim" of a horrible crime while in the way (I'm assuming TWI) by a member of leadership. You pressed charges; he went to jail, and then you were marked (I assume M&A) because he went to jail. Then you said you weren't a victim. Which is it? You go on to say that you had no idea what kind of man he was and that they (TWI) didn't know what type man he was, but that didn't stop them for M&A YOU because apparently YOU were upsetting the calm. What did they do with him? Was he tossed out? Was he publicly rebuked? If he didn't get tossed, then I would have to say that they preferred him over someone who was willing to do the right thing at great personal cost and they knew full well what kind of man he was. According to some here, men were trained to be abusers of women, and at the very least women were expected to be willing comforters of men - but in case one wasn't willing - that didn't matter. So you don't think you should have been hurt? You don't think the handling of your situation wasn't even remotely inappropriate? You didn't cause the drama. Do you not get that? He acted inappropriately. You did what you had to do, and your closest friends and confidantes are exhorted not to take sides as the "best" response to this outrage? Well, if this is nothing more than a "tale" to show us all how you would have reacted to being attacked by a leader, and how you would have been treated by people you thought were the closest thing to a family in this world, you've given us all a very good reason for the forum to keep on talking. As such, you talk in riddles and contradict yourself. Please don't accuse people of twisting your words. We're only trying to make sense of what you are saying.

I'm sure a number of us would cheerfully pass the hat if it came to that.

the snowstorm thread branches yet again... my question is: is it necessary in life to have one sole source for your rule of faith and practice? Mike seems to contend that everyone needs to have one, and only one. I disagree and would like to start a discussion on this topic. and I do believe that this falls under "about the way" and not doctine, because it's something that vpw pushed hard, leading us to give up all outside points of reference by which to judge whether something is right or wrong.

Testimony is not proof of anything?? Except it is admissable in a court of law as evidence. That is what testimony is. . . . proof!!!!!! This is just getting beyond ridiculous now. What court in the country does not accept testimony as evidence to prove guilt. No court says it is an undocumented collection of words. .. . until proven. . . OMGosh. . . that is why people TESTIFY under oath and the penalty of perjury. Get a clue. You don't testify an accusation, you testify to information relating TO the accusation as PROOF of guilt or innocence. Occasionaly testimony is all a Judge has to make a decision. . . guess what? It ends up. . . . based on testimony. . .

"The context was VPW." 'Nother words----It's all about upholding the innocence of VPW. WD doesn't seem to really be concerned about you, me, or the poor kids in Alaska who suffered at the hands of a known pedophile due to the negligence of TWI. What he is concerned about (IMO) is maintaining the image of VP Wierwille in an unblemished state.

Who exactly rants and raves day after day about what they haven`t witnessed? Who accuses others of crimes? The one I see doing that consistantly is the fellow that insists on calling folks here liars without any personal knowledge of the individuals on EITHER side of the issue.

Well said Ham, *not caring what their actions produce*. TWI doctrine made it excusable and acceptable when vp was drugging and raping....on the leaders when preying on and stealing from and then turning their backs on the very people they promised to help....and now decades later in the tactics engaged in the attempted cover up of the sins and crimes committed....The doctrine even gives them God`s seal of approval. What a legacy.

That is calling me a liar when referring to my experiences and testimony. Your silly word games don`t make it any less an insult to those of us whom have shared our experiences. Though your word games are a little more clever now, the loop holes that you find in the rules to obfuscate and call into question a persons honesty and integrity are not any less offensive. Some of us actually got a life and developed some character after leaving the snake pit of twi. I don`t give a darn whether you approve of my pronouncing the criminals of twi guilty or not...I know who I am I know what happened to me, what happened to my friends...I know that many of the accounts here of abuse have been corroborated ...and these are given by people with a whole heck of a lot more credibility than one who never left the safety of their protected little cocoon.

I assume that YOUR interaction WITH people here at gs where YOU said what your actual experience was in twi was true and factual. I think you are playing word games because you don`tlike being reminded that most of the knowledge that you base your facts on was 2nd and 3rd hand. ...and hows come.... if YOU talk to a person it is *going to a source* but if I talk to a person, it is second hand information that needs documentation?

probably depends on where you are, but plenty of A's are still tolerated and in fact are in key leadership positions. I just left in 2006, so I saw it with my own eyes and heard it with my own ears. it's still the same "ministry" as it was when lcm took it over, it's just that now the upper echelon doesn't care as much about what people do because they have all the abs they need to have a comfy retirement. twi is a big joke, especially from the pov of "research ministry".

Well ...aside from being sickened and offended at drugging, seduction, rape, child abuse, families destroyed and death of people at the hands of this man and the men he trained...being laid at the feet of God...that these people had it coming as a matter of course...whew I guess that I am amazed at the evil that can be excused, condoned and ignored in this man in order for ones theology to have any credibility. All in all, the callousness required to believe this makes me very very sad.

Ya know, I'm just curious. What does PFAL say we should expect of our ministers and teachers? Seems like we ought to go there and see if it's going to be our "only rule---".

Okay, now we are getting somewhere. Fair enough answer, thank-you. You do understand though, that what you are claiming is something that must be true for ALL if it is truth. Further, because you see it as truth, you are using this perception to espouse your definition of truth. . . . PFAL. If it is in fact the "Right" understanding that has been buried. . . . it is the right understanding for everyone. . . . no? Mike, who are you? A prophet? Have you ever seen "The Passion"? Mel Gibson did a fine job showing us all what Jesus went through for you. . . in detail. . . and living color. By your reasoning. . . Mel Gibson could be the one who got "It". . . .No? Yes? Maybe? VP wasn't the middleman. . . at least according to scripture. He drank like a fish and felt all women belonged to the king. What if he was just drunk when he thought he heard God?

Mark, give it up. Mike will never change his mind. Stop giving him bigger shovels to dig himself in deeper with.

Jim, could you explain your objective in posting the question? how will it support or undermine the PFAL dogma that we have "one source for faith and practice", without falling into the same trap that Mike's circular reasoning already leads to?

actually I started a thread on it because the snowstorm thread is so long and has branched so many times. http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=19165

are you sure you were with Howard every second of his life so that you can say with accuracy and conviction that he NEVER said that?

Well, seeing as how the emminent "doctor's" WURD's chief fan at this website has come right out and declared that he willfully utilizes a logical falacy in order to ferret out the great truths in the Vicster's written legacy (see "Begging the question" at "skepdic.com"), I guess it's not too hard to completely dismiss his earthshattering "research". Persuing such a depraved agenda eventually HAS to take a toll on one's mental health, though, wouldn't you think? It's so sad when you think about all the wasted effort that has gone down the rat hole. Time could be better spent doing just about anything, grooming roadkill, polishing firehydrants, or maybe making dentures for chickens. ANYTHING else would make more sense...

my mind boggles a bit at the idea that it took so long for a girl like Mary to come along so the messiah could be born, then that boy had to be pure enough to take on his job... just imagine what a disaster it would have been if he'd decided to become a drunkard and rapist like vpw... but god could somehow settle the responsibility of preserving his "word" on a man like vpw... and now apparently not just the preservation of his "word" since it was catestrophically lost, but the responsibility for receiving what is now actually new revelation that would get us back to the "original"... and vpw being constantly out of fellowship while drinking, bullying, preying on innocent girls and living a lavish lifestyle didn't at all stand in his way of carrying out this awesome responsibility.

aw, I wished I'd got one so I could make a voodoo doll out of it!

Someone posted this information about a year ago.

Thank You for that story Wordwolf it really gets to the heart of what everyone was trying to say. :)

You are grossly mistaken. It was made very clear that we were in no way, shape or form to use ABS or money from "love offerings" for postage, money orders, class expenses or anything else at the local level. That was the official Way International policy as stated by limb leadership on numerous occasions as the question was raised at statewide branch/twig area leader meetings. The point here is not the cost of a stamp, etc. The point is that the money traveled down a path of no return. Like a roach motel for personal funds. The money goes in but it never comes back out. Makes no difference whatsoever if we are talking about a nickel or a thousand dollars.

pppfffftttttt

I hope so, Lifted Up.

william, your response was better than mine. when subjected to those screaming sessions (with my then-husband standing by, fully supporting what was being done to me) I crumpled and lost myself. the depression was horrific but I could not leave. if I'd stood up to them and told them off like they rightly deserved, maybe I would have been kicked out and my life would have changed for the better much sooner... but by then I had kids and being put out of the house and leaving my kids is not something I think I could do. it's just sick thinking that they'd verbally abuse someone like that, then effectively steal all their belongings and send them out with nothing. twi is full of bullies and thieves. nothing justifies doing that to someone. maybe we should compile a book of personal stories, like you said it would be of encyclopedic proportions.

Allow me to interpret your response for our viewers at home by slipping on my PFAL-colored-glasses: Mindset = a mental attitude or inclination and believing = what you anticipate receiving, your expectation. Both biases are provided for you free of charge [well…no…they charged for the PFAL Class] by TWI. Yes…that works out quite well for them actually…"We'll tell you what it is and how to enjoy the fellowship and move the Word in the spirit with the love of God. Yes, we will define all that for you." And you think they did this in accordance with Romans 10:14,15? Okay – let's look at that, Romans 10:14,15 14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!" What TWI does is modify that a little - teaching people to call on God and tell Him what they believe He should do for them! And I do understand your viewpoint…from within the confines of this dark cold prison a good way to appease the prisoners is to keep handing out the Kool-Aid…that God-like mindset of telling God what to do and insisting you have an attitude of love and meekness. Yes! Yes! Get this message out to the others, right away, my child…I bid you Godspeed vpwspeed!

in my case, having a child gave me the opportunity to expand my horizons in such a way i can't describe. it's like i found myself in one sense but i know what you mean, Z. i am only talking about me -- not speaking for or about anyone else. i don't think we have to put down anyone, with / without children / in order to be ourselves (not saying you did this) and for the pain inflicted on people for having none, one, or too many, i wish people could mind their own business love,