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Or perhaps old puke from last night's bad drunk. It's still fun to make fun of memories of them worshiping over the porcelain god and speaking in liquid screams. Shot 'o Drambuie anyone?

What happened to all my prayers? Ya know, before I ever heard of The Way, I had no idea my prayers were second rate. Then I got witnessed to and found out I had it all wrong. See, you can't actually talk to God like you talk to everyone else. You have to have this special language, that they speak in the land of Lo Shanta, or God won't have a clue what you're talking about.And, God can't talk back to you either unless you talk to yourself in this new language lots and lots every day. And you have to make a real effort to expand your vocabulary, too, or God will just keep telling you the same stuff over and over again. Heck, I've even heard people say they prayed to God for answers (without the Lo Shanta stuff) and, presto, someone from TWI appeared to invite them to Twig and sign them up for PLAF. But, how can that be if God can't understand your prayers in the first place? So then my question is this: What happened to all those prayers I said before I heard of TWI?

In my former splinter group (River Road Fellowship as led by V. Barnard) we did the whole, "We are a whole world unto ourselves, isolated in a rural area" thing and it $ucked bigtime. Every perception of truth was tightly controlled by the supposed Apostle. It seemed to me like over time things just got more and more warped. Eventually it was heresy to even question such "apostolic" blunders as him teaching the Lord would return in 1997, 2000, uh er...2001, 2002, 2003, 2005, and even the latest that I've heard on the grapevine 2011. Not to mention the oppressive atmosphere which led to such unfortunate things as teenage girls announcing in fellowship that,"I am married to the Christ in Victor." So while they constantly congradulate themselves among themselves it seems pretty obvious to me that they only grew more dangerous and absurd as time went on. And I really don't think they'd openly come around GSC to state their case either, but they'd say it was because of all they "unbelief" here at GSC I'm sure. But I am certain it is because that even though they imagine themselves to be winners that they would simply be confronted for what they really are. I feel justified in my concerns for Caleb and his fellows.

So without further response from Caleb is this how we are to see this exchange end? One young man takes a small step out of the Mississipi swamp and into a place where all his beliefs he must knew may be challeged. He gives an aggressive post with a direct threat while claiming he will be handling questions and conversations for months to come. And as soon as a teany little bit of heat arrives he steps out, omly to never be heard from again. OMG I would like to believe the young man is o.k., but nobody that knows anything is saying! Is he being shut in with a bunch of faithful for a patented TWI style "healing". Are they mad at us enough to foolishly desire to carry out the feelings of anger in the initial post? Is the young man strong enough to realize that our intentions were for his own good and it may be that his "manoGod" is the real villain? But even though v2p2 may well be carrying out that role I do personally feel compassion for a young man who himself has been indoctrinated into his supposed life's purpose. TOO MANY QUESTIONS, TOO FEW ANSWERS. IMO

Maybe irrelevant.

Its not old news for all of us that gave our time & money for a rot hole place called THE WAY INTERNATIONAL that claimed to be a place of god. It wont be old news until no one is standing for or preaching their crap and that land in ohio is washed away . and only then will it be old news !!

Oh for Pete's sake, Oldies..........quit SPINNING and DANCING around the room. Wierwille BETRAYED his committed followers......most notably, the WOWs and the Corps. As a young and naive WOW, catcup's sister came face-to-face with wierwille's sexual motorcoach lusts and, when she refused, she was kicked off the WOW field. And, its well documented on the forums how wierwille went after the Corps women..!!!!! Can't you see the snare...??? With no accountability for his actions......and being in a well-protected, multi-tiered yes-men hierarchy, wierwille's TRUE COLORS CAME FORTH. What he was.......behind closed doors..... was his TRUE CHARACTER. Those public appearances were just showmanship......no more, no less. Wierwille BETRAYED "his" corps........he sold many of us down the river. He couldn't even keep his commitment to us regarding THE CORPS CHALET. He gave it to his top yes-boy......craig. There is a HUGE chasm between............freely serving God without compulsion as opposed to being manipulated by a con-man who winks with his eyes and speaks with his fingers (Proverbs reference). But hey.........if you, Oldies, want to stay deceived about "the good ole way-daze" have at it. Doesn't look like too many folks here are buying what you are attempting to sell.

ohmygod that was so funny

Actually, he's gotten worse. His earlier stuff at least scores "good" in a couple of areas.

Mark wa22ace,You are a smuck,Since when is lying acceptable?Do your research,in the old t it was probably some kind idiom God is not a liar duh,Remember if it aint true to fact it is a figure?In your case go figure.

LOL @ excie

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha hahaha ha ha ha ha haand i'm still thinking about that other groucho remark about her ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ahah aha ha ha

I think you're doing just fine. we all process this stuff differently. I myself had to take a "total immersion" approach and embrace my anger... I guess one could say I'd cut part of myself off and locked it away in my head, and all the hurt and anger with it, and reintegrating was really hard and has taken years and I'm still not done. after years of therapy, I think I managed to get to a place where I'm as mentally healthy as I was before I got tangled up in twi, and thanks to some recent developments I'm looking forward to growing beyond that. when I first got here, it was the people who described things in strong terms that helped me the most to realize how bad it actually was, and that I'd better stop excusing what was done to me. that realization helped me leave twi when I was too scared to. the kindness of people like excathedra, doojable, bowtwi, belle, dmiller, rumrunner, and many others were so vital to my survival that I'm not sure I can actually describe how indebted I am to them. I was a right mess back then :) but that's why I'm not so concerned with the good times in twi. every memory of twi has pain associated with it. maybe someday it won't, but that doesn't really matter... I just I hope I don't ever lull myself into forgetting the bad and idealizing the good so that I can't hear a brother or sister's pain.

LCM a victim?!?! Isn't that like calling Goebbels, Goering, Mendele, Eichmann victims because Hitler ran the thousand year Reich?!?!?! CRIMINALS - ALL OF THEM! LCM is a criminal too; as are others of the depraved Vic's henchmen - as is most any one else whether in TWI, the local street corner, or on GSC who still follows and propounds the depraved Nazi's "teachings" rather than debunk his debaucherous and nefarious mythologies.

I'm not sure what you mean. How are they different?

Not at all unlike cleaning out a septic tank with a soda straw...Don't know how those "defenders" can stand the taste of that cr@p any longer

that appears to be the real problem. if it wasn't stolen, then whoever has it can do what they want with it. if it was stolen, then twi must have made a report of the theft, or they decided to just let it go. but, it would look pretty stupid to file a report that they gave some tapes to someone and the someone didn't give them back. ok, provide proof that the tapes don't belong to the person presently in possession. can't do it? too bad. I heard all about the "stolen" materials for years. but the bottom line is, if materials were provided to employees so they could do their jobs, then you've got to prove you still have a right to the property. you gonna demand they give back every pen, notebook, whatever that you provided? that's not going to fly. you give them a manual or a book to help them do their job then you'd better make them sign an agreement to give it back. I'm sure plenty of people didn't feel obligated to give stuff back on a verbal agreement when twi didn't keep their promises. so what? I don't see that as being too big a deal. I own syllabi. we were told they were "for our eyes only" and lcm made a big deal out of people selling them, saying it was stolen property. whatever. from where I sit, all twi materials in my possession belong to me and I'll do what I want with them. I didn't sneak onto grounds and shoplift copies. they were handed to me. they're mine.

was there a signed contract, though? the arrangement you're describing has not stood up in court. you cannot print in the materials any limitations on transfer after "first sale" (which actually means the transfer from distributor to customer, and includes gifts) and expect that to hold up in court. if there isn't a signed lease, the tapes weren't leased. if there isn't a signed rental agreement, the tapes weren't rented. if there isn't a signed lending agreement, the tapes weren't loaned. if twi did not meet the conditions of licensing their tapes, then they had no legal right to show up on anyone's doorstep and demand them back, regardless of what their records say. in fact, they shouldn't have been allowed to reclaim their property without a warrant and a sheriff in attendance, after proving in court that they had a claim on the tapes. you think that I think I'm an attorney? how do you know I think that? I asked how you know the tapes belong to twi and how they're avoiding the first sale doctrine. they can claim ownership all they want, but without a contractual agreement, copyright law prevails over twi's delusional ideas of ownership.

Never - just as long as people can take as well as they can give.

Pure fabrication ,never stated such what I said was I'm not by the way seeing many here posting. You seem to be claiming guilt exactly how many rapes did you witness? I thought so you read an opinion and decided you like it. Strawman--------I never claimed to have witnessed a rape. Do you have a vested interest in the controversy you incite?

You say no one here was present during the commission of a crime. That assumption is in error. Exposing children to pornography is a crime in Ohio. People have testified that they were personally present when Wierwille did so. Providing alcohol to minors is a crime in Ohio. Same deal. Transporting people across state lines for the purpose of debauchery is a federal crime. People have given first hand testimony. It is against the law to drug a person and then have sex with them. People have given first hand testimony. These are crimes. People here were personally present. All this is moot anyway because Wierwille is dead. The people who you are insinuating to be liars are alive. You are the accuser, not them. As such, it's up to you to prove they are lying. Oh, yes, I know you never directly called them liars. Irrelevant. That's your implication. Now do a little tap dance and sing a song about how you are really a noble freedom fighter protecting the world from injustices. Riiiight. Here's what I would like to know. Are you engaged in any sort of business activity that might experience a revenue decrease (or increase) if Wierwille's true nature was exposed? Oh, wait. That would call for some speculative thinking on your part. Are you engaged in any sort of business that receives revenue from the sale of Way materials?

Would that be apistia or apeitheia?

I only watched high country caravan on video. I didn't like them, but I never like hee-haw either, and they seemed like a direct rip off of the whole idea. yeah, like the SERMONS? those were just like side-show performances. talk about ego.

Just to put this in perspective (not that I disagree with what happened in TWI), it is common to think of musicians as ego-centric by Christian organizations. There are people who make a living at driving the aspect of "performance" out of musicians and singers. The idea is that performance takes the worship aspect out of music and puts too much emphasis on the musician/singer. In TWI world, anything beyond singing songs would register as performance.

LOL I wonder how this one has managed to stay out of soap opera

It isn`t liable if what we say is true. I have yet to see any of the *consequences* you refer to in ten years of people reporting the abuses that would indicate that the experiences related, the books written, the broadcasts taped, were not factual and truthful. I`ll bet there are a good many of us that wish it all were a lie...that the mistreatment never happened :(

.you said it when you said their testimonies were non-factual. if they are non-factual, then they are fantasy, so must be fabrications or hallucinations. weird, this is what it says when I look it up: naturally synonyms for "convicted" would be of interest here if the word "convicted" was relevant.

For starters, I am not the one here who has claimed that PFAL is the only rule of faith and practice. Since it was you who made that claim, the burden is on you to prove it. Using your methodology, feel free to demonstrate why Wierwille was not in error when he stated on page 77 of Volume III, Studies In Abundant Living: "When Israel disobeyed and married Cain's progeny, they brought disaster to themselves." As Ham has pointed out,Cain's progeny was wiped out in the flood. Wierwille also stated, "And Ahab, Jeroboam's' son..." Again, as Ham has pointed out, Ahab was the son of Omri, not Jeroboam. I really doubt there are many places in the entire PFAL series that these names are even mentioned. There is no trick. Simply use your methodology to demonstrate why this is not erroneous. If it is erroneous, it certainly can't be considered a reliable source as our only rule of faith and practice.

Advise from a man who had no clue, whatsoever, how to honor his own marriage vows. His marriage would be the absolute last prototype I would ever try to use as a pattern for my own.

rascal, I went back and read seaspray's posts from 5 years ago and the most offensive thing I found about him was his troll behavior and his insults to you and Raf. he's a vpw-worshipper and he's made that abundantly (in fact, MORE THAN abundantly) clear.

yeah, it sure was a turn-around, and I do feel that it was a PR move: "see how christian we are? we teach our people that it's not ok to be promiscuous or to commit adultery. sex before marriage???? no way!!!!!! craig martindale? excuse me, can you repeat the question??? I've never heard of any craig martindale, but look at how edifying this class is!!!!!"

Well Mike then you just flunked physics 101. We'll start with the remedial stuff for you. The fact that there is an arithmetic set of equivalences between metric and English does not equate to a single standard by any stretch. History shows that those systems had radically different development for radically different applications. Thus there are two standards for two different reasons. The English system was based on ease of measurement while the metric system was based on ease of computation. However both are arbitrary as I will explain shortly. Considering the fact that both systems were originally developed before there was good instrumentation let us consider. It is easy to divide a pile of green beans into two approximately equal piles while much more difficult two divide it into 10 approximately equal piles. However for computation it is much easier to work with the metric system, eg 1CC of water (pure and at sea level) = 1 gram of weight and requires 1 C(cal) of energy to raise its temperature 1 degree celsius. Very nice for computation. We can't deny that the English system as arbitrary roots, 1 inch = the length of three barley corns side by side, 1 foot is the length of a kings foot etc etc. However the metric system itself was also based on an arbitrary standard. A meter was originally defined as a function of one minute of arc of the earth's circumference (also known as a great circle). If you apply the same function to a great circle on Jupiter the meter will change size based on its original definition not based on how it has been standardized today. Finally you seem to keep drawing some kind of analogy between the metric system and having a single standard for faith and practice (not a quote but the gist is correct). This is not logical. Two arbitrary and man made standards, both subject to change as measurements get finer and finer, cannot make a good analogy to a standard that God would have set down - an immutable standard for truth - and even then not an immutable standard for actions considering things changed when Jesus showed up on the scene. Man's "standards" compared to God's standards?!?! That has been the classic conflict between God and man. I would flunk you at your physics, chemistry and history but instead I will give you a passing grade of "D" for effort. The place where others make mistakes in analyzing your posts is when they insist you are using circular logic. There is no such thing in real logic. You use a lot of circular reasoning but certainly not logic. It's a nice day here in San Diego - perhaps you want to go get some windows cleaned while the sun is out bright and shining.

While I agree Wierwille was quite the accomplished liar I can't really give you that list below potato. Those may be body language things that liars do - but perfectly "normal" people do some of the same things and it is no indication they are lying. I don't know where you got that list - but it is sorely lacking in credibility - a few comments interspersed below based on my interaction with people...BTW my comments are no reflection of you - simply my observations about that list I saw a lot of these in vpw's videos, and even more so in lcm's.

It appears that you're indulging in a bit of projection again. I'm not yearning for much of anything right now, certainly not some sort of explanation for why a disparate collection of old fables doesn't "fit like a hand in a glove". I find religious arguments to be among the most absurd of mankind's endeavors, and yours especially so. Sorry...

I remember it being Household Holidays in about the mid 1970s. We were well schooled in its pagan origins. I think I must have been gone already (at least mentally) when it was called Ho-Ho. In my opinion, it was kind of a rationalization that made it "o.k." for folks who were on assignments away from home to return and celebrate with their families without actually celebrating the so called pagan nature of it. So it was "household" in a family context rather than the "One True Household" sense. Incidentally, the sowers site has photos of them celebrating "Christmas" for whatever that's worth.

that's what we do, too. my daughter totally loves the game of santa, and I even sign our presents "from santa". my one santa rule was that my kids were not to tell other kids that santa doesn't exist if the kid believes he's real, because that's their parents' job.

Every person is responsible for their own actions...I believe that there's a mental "line of demarcation" where people decide whether to "follow orders" or take the independant action of thinking and acting on their own accord. It took me 13 years to decide on my own that twi was bogus and it was time to move on. It took that long for me to gather the sufficient information to come to that decision. People will choose what they believe is the right thing...they may be right or they may be wrong...but the point is to DECIDE FOR YOURSELF. Too many people delegate that decision to others..."I will do what the mog tells me to do" syndrome...and that was what Wierwille banked on to achieve his "kingdom". He was a conman and we were the conned. Stayed too long?...if you were there for 5 minutes, it was 5 minutes too long.

You are twisted and have too much time on your hands!!! But that was a great slide show. The statue over the harbor I think comes from Rio in Brazil. Well done and thank you!

i don't even know what to say. it seems such a farce to me now i sincerely hope the people who are hurting, get out i know the ones doing the hurting and profiting will not

that's what attracted me as well... ME, read and understand the BIBLE?? WOW! that was the pitch, that was the hook... but it turns out the whole thing was really just about supporting the egos of a few righteous men. it was just a long spiral down to that realization.

I will have to give this some thought.

seriously, using the same logic we can pronounce mrs. wierwille's book a work of fiction because she was recounting things a hell of a lot longer ago and she was quite elderly when she was writing it. obviously it can't be true!

I think that Vic's selection of Martindale was revealing in and of itself... If Vic really believed that his ministry had substance, he would have picked Walter...but he knew it was built on his personality...so he attempted to pick someone with a firey personality...albeit, the guy was an a ** hole. ...and he also had delusions of granduer. Sign a loyalty oath?...kiss my a **.

OH YEAH! I'd forgotten about that little sh!t. what do you know.

yeah, solstice comes before christmas, so if we open our presents on solstice we have more time to play with them during the kids' winter break! the real reviews of the book come across as more sincere, by people who actually read the book and weren't just writing a knee-jerk twi-programmed response to someone saying bad things about their "ministry", so I think the average joe isn't going to be fooled by them. I just really loved how easy they made themselves to spot by peppering their reviews with wayspeak.

((((cool chef)))) I am sorry. I hope that someday, somewhere some how there is to be a reconing for people that did these things under the guise of being Godly men.

Lindy, WONDERFUL POST!!!! Many quotables in there~ Cheers buddy!

I was involved with twi for only six years (for a more detailed account of my story, see my post in the "My Story" forum here), from shortly after VPW's death in 1985 to 1991, although most of the last four years I was on active duty in the military with very limited contact with other followers. Mostly I just listened to their tapes and read their publications during my active duty military years. In the years prior to my enlistment, there were good and bad memories, but in hindsight, I'd have to say whether the memories were good or bad, they had little to do with the organization, and a lot to do with the people I was associating with at the time. My fondest memory of my years in twi had nothing to do with the organization, other than I was a WOW at the time it occurred. Shortly after I arrived where I was sent and got settled into an apartment, I was sitting on the couch shortly before "pumpkin hour" reading the Bible when I happened to look up toward the sliding glass door that led to the balcony to see a full moon in the clear night sky with a rainbow completely encircling it. It was a natural phenomenon that I've never seen before or since. I excitedly dragged my two WOW sisters out onto the balcony to see it, and they were as awestruck as I was. My interim corps WOW sister quoted Psalm 19:1, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork." The three of us interpreted this beautiful natural occurance as a sign from God that our WOW year would bring great blessings. Unfortunately, we all left before the year was over, with me being the first to go. After my discharge from the military, my memories of my twi involvement are mostly bad. Things had changed drastically that I didn't notice in the tapes and magazine issues that I received in the mail while I was on active duty. I returned from a combat tour of duty in Kuwait and Iraq to find that most of the caring, loving "leaders" I knew before had become overly critical of those whom they were responsible for "leading" and yelling at them rather than calmly and rationally explaining things with a loving attitude. Since I was recently in a war zone, I was and still am coping with the psychological trauma associated with firsthand experience of war. I came to the conclusion before I even left the Persian Gulf that what my country had done to the people of Iraq was a heinous criminal act, and I was so ashamed of my participation in it that I couldn't find the courage to even talk about what I had experienced until three years ago. The worst memory of my post-military involvement with twi, about 6 months after my discharge, involved a branch coordinator who got in my face and yelled at me like he was some kind of wannabe drill instructor. I don't remember exactly why he was yelling at me, but he said things like, "You better get your head straight with God, mister..." and other miscellaneous "renew your mind" crap. After putting up with 90 minutes or so of his impersonation of Sgt. Hartman in Full Metal Jacket something inside me snapped, and before either of us knew it, I had grabbed him by the larynx and slammed him against a wall. I pinned him there as I screamed a string of obscenities at him, telling him in no uncertain terms that my relationship with God was none of his business. It took three people to pull me off of him. When they got me to sit down, I was an emotional wreck, shaking and crying uncontrollably. I realized that I could have easily killed the guy with my bare hands just by squeezing a little harder on his adam's apple and crushing it. They knew I was a recently discharged veteran, but because of the shame and guilt that kept me from talking about my combat experience, they had no clue what they were dealing with as far as my fragile psyche was concerned. Of course they all thought I was possessed, and tried casting out the devil spirits. When that didn't work, they shunned me and refused to let me in the house I shared with four other followers to collect my personal belongings. I had nowhere to go except hitchhike 170+ miles to my parents house, where I decided to end my involvement with twi once and for all. I think all the factors that influence how those involved with twi (or any other cult for that matter) view the memories they've collected of their involvement could fill an entire volume of an encyclopedia. I was a 17 year old kid when I took the foundational class, and generally speaking, the younger you are, the easier it is for others to manipulate your mind. When twi's brainwashing techniques started to change from the subtle friendly seduction I was subjected to early on, to more overt militaristic brainwashing techniques like "face meltings" it got to a point where it hit a raw nerve in me that triggered an adrenaline induced fight-or-flight response.

gingie lange ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha crimes of the heart cursewords worse crimes editing love, sissy