Leaderboard

Or perhaps old puke from last night's bad drunk. It's still fun to make fun of memories of them worshiping over the porcelain god and speaking in liquid screams. Shot 'o Drambuie anyone?

What happened to all my prayers? Ya know, before I ever heard of The Way, I had no idea my prayers were second rate. Then I got witnessed to and found out I had it all wrong. See, you can't actually talk to God like you talk to everyone else. You have to have this special language, that they speak in the land of Lo Shanta, or God won't have a clue what you're talking about.And, God can't talk back to you either unless you talk to yourself in this new language lots and lots every day. And you have to make a real effort to expand your vocabulary, too, or God will just keep telling you the same stuff over and over again. Heck, I've even heard people say they prayed to God for answers (without the Lo Shanta stuff) and, presto, someone from TWI appeared to invite them to Twig and sign them up for PLAF. But, how can that be if God can't understand your prayers in the first place? So then my question is this: What happened to all those prayers I said before I heard of TWI?

In my former splinter group (River Road Fellowship as led by V. Barnard) we did the whole, "We are a whole world unto ourselves, isolated in a rural area" thing and it $ucked bigtime. Every perception of truth was tightly controlled by the supposed Apostle. It seemed to me like over time things just got more and more warped. Eventually it was heresy to even question such "apostolic" blunders as him teaching the Lord would return in 1997, 2000, uh er...2001, 2002, 2003, 2005, and even the latest that I've heard on the grapevine 2011. Not to mention the oppressive atmosphere which led to such unfortunate things as teenage girls announcing in fellowship that,"I am married to the Christ in Victor." So while they constantly congradulate themselves among themselves it seems pretty obvious to me that they only grew more dangerous and absurd as time went on. And I really don't think they'd openly come around GSC to state their case either, but they'd say it was because of all they "unbelief" here at GSC I'm sure. But I am certain it is because that even though they imagine themselves to be winners that they would simply be confronted for what they really are. I feel justified in my concerns for Caleb and his fellows.

So without further response from Caleb is this how we are to see this exchange end? One young man takes a small step out of the Mississipi swamp and into a place where all his beliefs he must knew may be challeged. He gives an aggressive post with a direct threat while claiming he will be handling questions and conversations for months to come. And as soon as a teany little bit of heat arrives he steps out, omly to never be heard from again. OMG I would like to believe the young man is o.k., but nobody that knows anything is saying! Is he being shut in with a bunch of faithful for a patented TWI style "healing". Are they mad at us enough to foolishly desire to carry out the feelings of anger in the initial post? Is the young man strong enough to realize that our intentions were for his own good and it may be that his "manoGod" is the real villain? But even though v2p2 may well be carrying out that role I do personally feel compassion for a young man who himself has been indoctrinated into his supposed life's purpose. TOO MANY QUESTIONS, TOO FEW ANSWERS. IMO

Maybe irrelevant.

Its not old news for all of us that gave our time & money for a rot hole place called THE WAY INTERNATIONAL that claimed to be a place of god. It wont be old news until no one is standing for or preaching their crap and that land in ohio is washed away . and only then will it be old news !!

Oh for Pete's sake, Oldies..........quit SPINNING and DANCING around the room. Wierwille BETRAYED his committed followers......most notably, the WOWs and the Corps. As a young and naive WOW, catcup's sister came face-to-face with wierwille's sexual motorcoach lusts and, when she refused, she was kicked off the WOW field. And, its well documented on the forums how wierwille went after the Corps women..!!!!! Can't you see the snare...??? With no accountability for his actions......and being in a well-protected, multi-tiered yes-men hierarchy, wierwille's TRUE COLORS CAME FORTH. What he was.......behind closed doors..... was his TRUE CHARACTER. Those public appearances were just showmanship......no more, no less. Wierwille BETRAYED "his" corps........he sold many of us down the river. He couldn't even keep his commitment to us regarding THE CORPS CHALET. He gave it to his top yes-boy......craig. There is a HUGE chasm between............freely serving God without compulsion as opposed to being manipulated by a con-man who winks with his eyes and speaks with his fingers (Proverbs reference). But hey.........if you, Oldies, want to stay deceived about "the good ole way-daze" have at it. Doesn't look like too many folks here are buying what you are attempting to sell.

It happened again yesterday. I came across another person who took the pfal class......and stayed with twi for almost three years. Yep, back in the early 80s, she took pfal and even attended the roa one year. Her comments were....."It was a good experience and I learned alot." Yet.......some things came up in her life and she left twi. BUT.......holds some good memories. This story seems to repeat itself over and over and over again. The local twig had some fun-loving, caring people who really loved God. Young-hearted and youthful energy was abounding. The music was God-inspiring and hearts were affixed on God's power to heal and deliver. It seems obvious that the longer one stayed, the INDOCTRINATION PROCESS overran the feel-good comaraderie of the local fellowships. The longer one stayed..........the more one was required to DO. The manipulation and micro-management of twi followers was exponentially increased when one became an "advanced class" grad. Yet, the corps program contained some of the ultimate experiences of an isolation cult training wherein the controlling, intimidating scream-fest leaders followed wierwille's lead. Yeah...........I stayed too long. And therefore, I have lots of BAD Memories.

ohmygod that was so funny

Actually, he's gotten worse. His earlier stuff at least scores "good" in a couple of areas.

(((takes a bow))) I wish I could post the ones I know about in detail, I truly do, because they're amazing. I just don't want the attention and I don't want it on my friends. I'm more concerned about the impact on them. someday I'll write my memoirs, though :)

Mark wa22ace,You are a smuck,Since when is lying acceptable?Do your research,in the old t it was probably some kind idiom God is not a liar duh,Remember if it aint true to fact it is a figure?In your case go figure.

LOL @ excie

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha hahaha ha ha ha ha haand i'm still thinking about that other groucho remark about her ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ahah aha ha ha

I think you're doing just fine. we all process this stuff differently. I myself had to take a "total immersion" approach and embrace my anger... I guess one could say I'd cut part of myself off and locked it away in my head, and all the hurt and anger with it, and reintegrating was really hard and has taken years and I'm still not done. after years of therapy, I think I managed to get to a place where I'm as mentally healthy as I was before I got tangled up in twi, and thanks to some recent developments I'm looking forward to growing beyond that. when I first got here, it was the people who described things in strong terms that helped me the most to realize how bad it actually was, and that I'd better stop excusing what was done to me. that realization helped me leave twi when I was too scared to. the kindness of people like excathedra, doojable, bowtwi, belle, dmiller, rumrunner, and many others were so vital to my survival that I'm not sure I can actually describe how indebted I am to them. I was a right mess back then :) but that's why I'm not so concerned with the good times in twi. every memory of twi has pain associated with it. maybe someday it won't, but that doesn't really matter... I just I hope I don't ever lull myself into forgetting the bad and idealizing the good so that I can't hear a brother or sister's pain.

I am trying to understand what you are saying. It is rather cryptic to my ears, but maybe it is just me. Yes, TWI was and is made up of people. My point exactly. The people that post here are former members of TWI. I would guess that out of all the posters registered here. . . the majority are good people. Even some of the grumpy ones have a heart of gold. :) I imagine that there is at least one redeemable quality present in them today that was present during their time in TWI. Kindness, honesty, generosity, caring. . . selflessness. . . something?? I saw all those qualities exhibited at one time or another. People are flawed, and people get tricked. . . we did lose some of ourselves in TWI. . . no doubt. . . but, not all tossed humanity out the window. Some, yes. . . not all. So, if we accept the premise that people are flawed, and we accept the reality that we were tricked. . . together. . . theoretically, we can have some room in our hearts and fondness for the good people we lived with, worked with, and loved. Not perfect people. . . but people with at least "some" good qualities. Not everyone raped and pillaged. And Lord knows I wasn't in it for the money. . . I owned and rode in enough junkers to realize that not many WERE in it for the money. If you talk to me about the doctrine or sheep being led astray. . . you will get a whole different response. But, the people. . . . as flawed and broken as some were. . . were not all bad. Remember, we actually ARE those people. I really hope you understand that does not diminish the bad. I have more than my share of horror stories. . . but this thread posed the question of "good times". If I had my life to live over again. . . this converation would be moot. I would run. . . not walk the other way. . . but I don't . . . so. . . . it still is what it is. There are just too many human beings I can't regret.

LCM a victim?!?! Isn't that like calling Goebbels, Goering, Mendele, Eichmann victims because Hitler ran the thousand year Reich?!?!?! CRIMINALS - ALL OF THEM! LCM is a criminal too; as are others of the depraved Vic's henchmen - as is most any one else whether in TWI, the local street corner, or on GSC who still follows and propounds the depraved Nazi's "teachings" rather than debunk his debaucherous and nefarious mythologies.

I'm not sure what you mean. How are they different?

no, ain't doing a research paper maybe it's a moral dilemma, maybe not, i dunno maybe "who cares" is the best answer

Not at all unlike cleaning out a septic tank with a soda straw...Don't know how those "defenders" can stand the taste of that cr@p any longer

was there a signed contract, though? the arrangement you're describing has not stood up in court. you cannot print in the materials any limitations on transfer after "first sale" (which actually means the transfer from distributor to customer, and includes gifts) and expect that to hold up in court. if there isn't a signed lease, the tapes weren't leased. if there isn't a signed rental agreement, the tapes weren't rented. if there isn't a signed lending agreement, the tapes weren't loaned. if twi did not meet the conditions of licensing their tapes, then they had no legal right to show up on anyone's doorstep and demand them back, regardless of what their records say. in fact, they shouldn't have been allowed to reclaim their property without a warrant and a sheriff in attendance, after proving in court that they had a claim on the tapes. you think that I think I'm an attorney? how do you know I think that? I asked how you know the tapes belong to twi and how they're avoiding the first sale doctrine. they can claim ownership all they want, but without a contractual agreement, copyright law prevails over twi's delusional ideas of ownership.

Never - just as long as people can take as well as they can give.

Pure fabrication ,never stated such what I said was I'm not by the way seeing many here posting. You seem to be claiming guilt exactly how many rapes did you witness? I thought so you read an opinion and decided you like it. Strawman--------I never claimed to have witnessed a rape. Do you have a vested interest in the controversy you incite?

Would that be apistia or apeitheia?

I only watched high country caravan on video. I didn't like them, but I never like hee-haw either, and they seemed like a direct rip off of the whole idea. yeah, like the SERMONS? those were just like side-show performances. talk about ego.

thank you, WG. I didn't remember that as being part of PFAL, but it certainly explains some things. it was a deeply engrained part of twi culture. I wonder how Bathsheba, as Uriah's wife, reacted. no one said no to the king, so her cooperation was most certainly coerced because of his position of power, unless he took the time to seduce her. was she afraid? did she cry afterward? was what David did essentially RAPE? I think it probably was. Bathsheba didn't have a choice. looking at Nathan's confrontation, it would certainly seem that god equated David's rape of Bathsheba to destroying something precious. in the parable, the beloved lamb was sacrificed for a feast. that implies greed and lust and a disregard for others. nice qualities in a king! since the MOG was the modern-day spiritual equivalent of David, it must have been easy to overlook the effect on the women who were used if David's only crime was murder. from what Nathan said, though, God saw it differently.

LOL I wonder how this one has managed to stay out of soap opera

It isn`t liable if what we say is true. I have yet to see any of the *consequences* you refer to in ten years of people reporting the abuses that would indicate that the experiences related, the books written, the broadcasts taped, were not factual and truthful. I`ll bet there are a good many of us that wish it all were a lie...that the mistreatment never happened :(

.you said it when you said their testimonies were non-factual. if they are non-factual, then they are fantasy, so must be fabrications or hallucinations. weird, this is what it says when I look it up: naturally synonyms for "convicted" would be of interest here if the word "convicted" was relevant.

"vpw made it live for me through pfal. because it lives for me, pfal must be true. because pfal is true, it must be god-breathed." very, very subjective judgment. that would be nice. I'm not going to read pfal again. oh, and thanks to those of you who've tried to bring that thread back wherever it wandered off to.

Maybe you could just post a synopsis.

Advise from a man who had no clue, whatsoever, how to honor his own marriage vows. His marriage would be the absolute last prototype I would ever try to use as a pattern for my own.

rascal, I went back and read seaspray's posts from 5 years ago and the most offensive thing I found about him was his troll behavior and his insults to you and Raf. he's a vpw-worshipper and he's made that abundantly (in fact, MORE THAN abundantly) clear.

yeah, it sure was a turn-around, and I do feel that it was a PR move: "see how christian we are? we teach our people that it's not ok to be promiscuous or to commit adultery. sex before marriage???? no way!!!!!! craig martindale? excuse me, can you repeat the question??? I've never heard of any craig martindale, but look at how edifying this class is!!!!!"

Well Mike then you just flunked physics 101. We'll start with the remedial stuff for you. The fact that there is an arithmetic set of equivalences between metric and English does not equate to a single standard by any stretch. History shows that those systems had radically different development for radically different applications. Thus there are two standards for two different reasons. The English system was based on ease of measurement while the metric system was based on ease of computation. However both are arbitrary as I will explain shortly. Considering the fact that both systems were originally developed before there was good instrumentation let us consider. It is easy to divide a pile of green beans into two approximately equal piles while much more difficult two divide it into 10 approximately equal piles. However for computation it is much easier to work with the metric system, eg 1CC of water (pure and at sea level) = 1 gram of weight and requires 1 C(cal) of energy to raise its temperature 1 degree celsius. Very nice for computation. We can't deny that the English system as arbitrary roots, 1 inch = the length of three barley corns side by side, 1 foot is the length of a kings foot etc etc. However the metric system itself was also based on an arbitrary standard. A meter was originally defined as a function of one minute of arc of the earth's circumference (also known as a great circle). If you apply the same function to a great circle on Jupiter the meter will change size based on its original definition not based on how it has been standardized today. Finally you seem to keep drawing some kind of analogy between the metric system and having a single standard for faith and practice (not a quote but the gist is correct). This is not logical. Two arbitrary and man made standards, both subject to change as measurements get finer and finer, cannot make a good analogy to a standard that God would have set down - an immutable standard for truth - and even then not an immutable standard for actions considering things changed when Jesus showed up on the scene. Man's "standards" compared to God's standards?!?! That has been the classic conflict between God and man. I would flunk you at your physics, chemistry and history but instead I will give you a passing grade of "D" for effort. The place where others make mistakes in analyzing your posts is when they insist you are using circular logic. There is no such thing in real logic. You use a lot of circular reasoning but certainly not logic. It's a nice day here in San Diego - perhaps you want to go get some windows cleaned while the sun is out bright and shining.

While I agree Wierwille was quite the accomplished liar I can't really give you that list below potato. Those may be body language things that liars do - but perfectly "normal" people do some of the same things and it is no indication they are lying. I don't know where you got that list - but it is sorely lacking in credibility - a few comments interspersed below based on my interaction with people...BTW my comments are no reflection of you - simply my observations about that list I saw a lot of these in vpw's videos, and even more so in lcm's.

It appears that you're indulging in a bit of projection again. I'm not yearning for much of anything right now, certainly not some sort of explanation for why a disparate collection of old fables doesn't "fit like a hand in a glove". I find religious arguments to be among the most absurd of mankind's endeavors, and yours especially so. Sorry...

...and there you have it. I contend that the snow on the gaspumps story was the "hook" in pfal...If you bought THAT story, everything else was swallowed hook, line and sinker...Wierwille could have taught us that Alfred E Newman was one of the 12 disciples and we would have bought it. I mean...God talked to this guy!!! That was the message he delivered and we sucked it up like Cooter Brown and a jug of moonshine...off to see the wizard, the terrible lizard of Oz, New Knoxville... Yes...Wierwille's "snow stories" were definitely the hook in his con.

that's what we do, too. my daughter totally loves the game of santa, and I even sign our presents "from santa". my one santa rule was that my kids were not to tell other kids that santa doesn't exist if the kid believes he's real, because that's their parents' job.

Twi spends alot of time and energy to "dress up" its image..............but spends very little money doing so. Twi spends countless hours practicing songs and dance steps..........but spends none on wardrobe. Twi spends time mandating corps doctrine and discipline.................but spends meagerly at the limb level. Once on the hook, the twi follower is opening his wallet before each class, after each class, during branch meetings, limb functions, advanced class special fees, and guest speaker gifts, and weekly abs, and twig refreshments and supplies, and gasoline for witnessing nights, sts tapes, and mags, and books, etc. etc. At the top.......twi's bod sit smugly in their conference chairs dictating policy. While enjoying the constant adulation, they walk the halls of the OSC in comfort and ease. No stress. No strain. And, at the end of the fiscal year, Rosalie rewards these yes-men with bonuses. On the field.........the lowly "believer" is jumping hoops night and day, neglecting life and livelihood, trying to stand approved of twi leadership policies. Preying on the small guy, twi is relentless. Like any scam, it works best when one is unsuspecting that he is being scammed. "It's the Word, the Word....and nothing but the Word" is a cliche that keeps guilt-ridden followers in a constant state of striving for the unattainable. 55 million and counting............the twi bean-counters are giddy with excitement.

i don't even know what to say. it seems such a farce to me now i sincerely hope the people who are hurting, get out i know the ones doing the hurting and profiting will not

Man, if that don't just hit the nail smack dab on the proverbial head!! They were kind enough to inform us that if we were ever less than completely honest and open to "leadership" inquiries, we would somehow suffer spiritual consequences because it was out of fellowship to disobey a leader. Same thing as disobeying God, really. Heck, they could have gotten the order they fired at you by direct revelation from God Almighty! Doesn't get much heavier than that, now does it? Good gravy! Might even wind up like old Ananais and Saphira. They lied to God and woke up dead the next morning. No siree, even a nickel out of that horn could cost you plenty. And they will know. They'll see it in your failure to manifest positives. Yep, they'll just know.

that's what attracted me as well... ME, read and understand the BIBLE?? WOW! that was the pitch, that was the hook... but it turns out the whole thing was really just about supporting the egos of a few righteous men. it was just a long spiral down to that realization.

I will have to give this some thought.

seriously, using the same logic we can pronounce mrs. wierwille's book a work of fiction because she was recounting things a hell of a lot longer ago and she was quite elderly when she was writing it. obviously it can't be true!

I think that Vic's selection of Martindale was revealing in and of itself... If Vic really believed that his ministry had substance, he would have picked Walter...but he knew it was built on his personality...so he attempted to pick someone with a firey personality...albeit, the guy was an a ** hole. ...and he also had delusions of granduer. Sign a loyalty oath?...kiss my a **.

yeah, solstice comes before christmas, so if we open our presents on solstice we have more time to play with them during the kids' winter break! the real reviews of the book come across as more sincere, by people who actually read the book and weren't just writing a knee-jerk twi-programmed response to someone saying bad things about their "ministry", so I think the average joe isn't going to be fooled by them. I just really loved how easy they made themselves to spot by peppering their reviews with wayspeak.

((((cool chef)))) I am sorry. I hope that someday, somewhere some how there is to be a reconing for people that did these things under the guise of being Godly men.

Lindy, WONDERFUL POST!!!! Many quotables in there~ Cheers buddy!

gingie lange ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha crimes of the heart cursewords worse crimes editing love, sissy