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What I would like to know is, do they operate the same way twi did? Do they Mark and Avoid when someone doesn't toe the line? Do they require attendance at all ministry functions? Do they require 10 percent of your income for God to spit on you? Do the teachers spit when they teach? Do they shun anyone who isn't in the ministry? What if a class is being run and you can't go because of your job, do they "suggest" you quit your job to "put God first"? How different are they really from twi? Or are they pretty much the same?

Well you have to admit. . . all this lovely history brought to light. . . . concerning the Wierwille's from Ohio and now Mud Hole Mississippi . . . . cannot be good for business. Curious. . . . most groups like TWI are built around one central charismatic figure. . . cult 101. . . the big guy dies. . . the thing falls apart . . . . unless there is someone equally charismatic to step in. . . . rally the troops. . . and hold it together. Pretty common way for a cult to go away. . . the big dog dies. Armstrong and the COG are a good example. . . it splintered. I think his son leads an offshoot as he could not hold the empire together. Now that the Wierwille's splinter have a new charismatic figure. . . they are ramping it up and at it again. I just find that diabolical. I really do.

oh it can indeed. the key is remembering to hate the right people when it gets chilly in the night. my ex for instance. or lcm. I get real warm fuzzies thinking about his fall from power and it puts me right to sleep, all cozy. vpw I somehow can't derive the same warmth from, unless I remember he died possessed by a devil, but somehow that doesn't seem like enough. hehe, I forgot I had that listed in my interests :)

Absolutely correct. I can disagree with someone and still not hate them.

Post anyway you please. I don't recall saying you're embarrassing yourself. I don't want you to alter anything on my account. I do, however recall a proverb about people who speak their whole mind. When did you start believing that someone wanted to invalidate your opinions? Just how is that done, anyhow? Opinions fly back and forth rather quickly here. The comments you're referring to happened this morning - time and comments have come and gone since then. You felt like they needed to be brought up again. That's your right. It's also my right to answer you if you address me. When would you like this to end?

And spoil everyone's fun? He is a young whippersnapper who doesn't know sh!t from shinola. You know, like most of us when we were his age, only most of us didn't know it then, either. But that's different - well, at least for some of us. Linda Z, you are entirely too rational at times. I love it, but it'll cause your "reputation" to suffer.

Wow I'm heavily struck, here, with how unpredictable can be the human condition and the oft strong desire to be right, to be sure to get the last word in, to be sure to one-up another. Not exactly the vision Pawtucket had, I'm sure, when he said something like "lets tell the other side of the story and maybe have some fun doing it". If someone pi$ses me off and I just can't stand it, I fail to see the good in not standing it so publically; I guess I'll never understand that and I'm glad I don't get it. Caleb, in his youthful "I was just kidding" approach and tone after his original approach of "I'll show up on your stoop"..........I think that those of us that have children that are older than 22 might understand that silliness quicker and yes, he did deserve to have explained to him the better way to frame things here. But my question, then, is whether or not like bahavior isn't happening amongst those that were comfy to tell him straighten up and fly right. The bully on the playground that barges into the new playground, making comments that he later states were "just kidding" then gets to sit back and watch as those he is presumed to have bullied go at each other. I think we too often have no idea of another's intentions, and of course we lack eye contact and body language and general knowledge of someone that is merely known to us on a computer screen. Then I've known of two or more people getting together on the phone or an IM and prod each other against another. "you post this and I'll follow with this" and so it goes. For what? To show someone how tough we are, how much more we know than them, we're big, they're small and by God we are going to make sure they remember it? Sad and our new friend Caleb, bless his heart and pass the peas, sees only the bickering and spitting and why the hell wouldn't he feel comfortable to come back with more of his own goodies. I don't know the man called Caleb but I do understand young people that age and I do understand having connections to people of note and just those two combined make for a powerful mix of "pffffttttt" Is that his intent? I'm not sure I care, but as is the original idea of the forum, too, he has the right to express it and yes, the responsibility to accept the consequences of a strong group of people. I looked at his posts through the lens of a mama and more fun, the mama of a 20 something kid that is forever making statements that she might have to swallow whole in a short time, sometimes all the time. She'll get it and so will Caleb, I pray. I know I did when as I matured and understood and got off my '10 foot tall and bulletproof' ladder. But to go at each other in such a public manner...........nah. Sad. Caleb, say what you need to say, just do heed alot of the posters sage wisdom of caution, whatever that is for you.

I, for one, would be interested in hearing about the mechanics of the program. What was an average day like? How was it scheduled? Did you have free time to just relax? What were mealtimes like? What sort of food program did you have? What were the housing arrangements? Did you have group work projects? What was offered in the way of academic study? Are these questions general enough to keep things neutral?

:o Lingo?? -------------------- I dunno--- why would anyone bother? are people really that bored? But I suppose you could be right--- I can believe almost anyone anywhere but when anyone speaks in the name of "truth" the details always seem to be at least a little bit sketchy and suspect. I hope he tells us why young Victor is such a "great man of God" --enough of us have asked already-- Im expecting something Gandhi like, a dash of St. Patrick with a little Mother Theresa mixed in. After the big buildup anything less than ending world hunger and brokering a lasting peace in the Mideast and I'll be sorely disapointed. I can hardly wait for 'the truth' to be shown....

vpw's thing about making changes in the work of other as suited him and conveniently forgetting to mention their names came into play here again. Remember this poem "written by vpw"? "God has no hands but our hands with which to give His people bread. God has no feet but our feet with which to walk amoung the almost dead. We say that we are His,and He is ours. Deeds are the proof of this, not words, And these are the proving hours." Well, if you knew about the FOURTEENTH-CENTURY St Teresa of Avila, this poem might have sounded oddly familiar. After all, she said === ""God has no hands but our hands to do his work today; God has no feet but our feet to lead others in his way; God has no voice but our voice to tell others how he died; and God has no help but our help to lead them to his side." " === If the average person did this, I might be open to possibilities like "they wrote this having never seen the work of the other person" or "they forgot they ever read this from another person" However, vpw had QUITE the track record on dropping labels off off things he liked, whether they were entire books of Christians, poems, etc.

So they were at Rome City.. I thought they got shipped off far west or something.. anybody else know anything?

anybody seen ilda recinto recently? I think she and her husband moved to new bremen ohio.

hey eagle 709: if you really knew what was going on as you claim, then you probably owe apologies to some people. this is the ideal place to make that happen.

It was the fear in the heart of the life of that man...

I dunno. I keep coming back to the thought.. they've sent a boy to do a man's job.. why is this.. confront us "vindictive" god rejectors with da "love of god".. it's just my impression.. looks like the same thing, all over again..

Hi, crystalclearblue Yes, it is sad. The Way promised to deliver a pie-in-the-sky utopia (via what they claimed was "God's Word") that defies the reality of how real life works. Maybe we were all just too young and naive to see it (The Way) for what it really was, a money making scheme for VPW & Co. Anyway, welcome to GSC. Have a latte on the house.

YOU SAID: It's a constant battle for approval from them and I don't feel like any of my efforts matter. I always have to be on my best behavior so they can see why she fell for a guy like me. It's the same with her friends. I have to second what Tzaia said! What can be so wonderful and remarkable about this girl that makes you put up with being treated like this? This isn't the first incident. This isn't a mis-understanding. This is an active campaign by this girl's friends and family to drive a wedge between the two of you and SHE is LETTING THEM do it. Sorry, but if this is how she is behaving now, it ain't gonna get any better!

I've found that works really well. Every time I think about that nasty scumbag wench I.... Wow, I feel nice and warm already!

WORSE. they said mashed.

I'm sure we can get into a nice cat fight over some issue or another. . . she is an adversarial wench. . . I think I qualify as well. . . if for no other reason than to keep you amused!! :)

Well now who doesn`t have a sense of humor? FYI, I didn`t call YOU stupid, I called the statement you made saying I didn`t like Grouch Stupid :) Either you were mistaken or you deliberately lied...shrug either way it was not accurate.

Well now that really IS stupid..I LIKE Groucho and enjoy his posts ...lol :) I guess I don`t think much of a teacher of any kind of style that propounds that kind of crap. I have competed in open tournaments as have my kiddoes. The tae kwon do students big dramatic movements are generally able to be countered by the shorter more direct karate techniques...shrug... Either way, The martial arts students around these parts have mutual admiration, respect and understanding of one another and their specific styles, as well as what makes each of them unique and effective. Dooj, lead with my chin or not, I post what I think, and in spite of your numerous assertions of embarrassing myself, it would be less than honest to alter my posts or opinions or style to suit you. Why not let me post my thoughts? Can we limit our comments to our opinions to the subject at hand rather than why one anothers points or opinions should be invalidated?

Naw her reputation won't suffer. She really is a nice person in RL...well she was 25 years ago anyway. For all of her occasional Sister Linda Theresa can't we all be friends kind of thing there really is nothing you can do to tarnish her reputation. If there is anyone on GSC who is still clean - it's probably LindaZ. ...now (rubbing hands together with evil grin on face)...what bad things can I say about Linda Z...

Rascal - I'm surprised that after all this time you still lead with your chin. Why not lighten up and see humor when it's right in front of you. Notice this post: Sometimes fun and banter can lighten a conversation, especially a conversation that is essentially a bunch of folks sitting around and waiting on someone to come answer questions he invited. Linda - I repeat - the kid knew what he was walking into. Feel like? Good lord! This is the internet, not the Spanish Inquisition. There are no torture chambers here (though I think GT should consider installing some ;) ) If someone doesn't like what is written they can get up from the computer and live life. If you'll look closely at the thread - only about 2 1/2 pages have been devoted to questions. The rest of the posts have been us discussing how we discuss, questions, and how we don't always get along. The kid knew the job was dangerous when he took it.

Rummy - you know I can dish it back with the best of them. In this case I believe the young man was being flippant - nothing more. I feel the same as you about someone coming to my house acting that way, but this is a "public" place, and as such I believe it's best to diffuse rather than respond in kind.

That seems to be a problem at greasespot,anytime someone posts that is new,with new information,they are bombarded quickly with a barage of crap.Had that happened to me when I first started posting,I would have left rather quickly."New stuff" is what originally kept me coming back here.Now it seems it is boring,and any new stuff if any soon disappears. I think people of twi are scared to death of this place. Hey Caleb,If you are out there come back,At least I promise to yreat you civil.

I don't foresee there ever being a healthy dialogue with any leader or member of any offshoot on this board. I can only imagine what it must feel like. Probably a lot like slathering oneself with honey and standing on a hill of red ants. I've never been to a CFF meeting and have no interest in going to one. I have no stake whatsover in SOWERS and no current relationship with any of its board or staff. In other words, I have no interest in defending anything except everyone's right to express themselves here without being treated with disdain and having every word picked apart right out of the gate.

I have been known to on occasion, but I am not so sure it counts anymore. . . . you see, I actually believe Jesus Christ IS God! :) Rascal, please don't be sorry. . . I really enjoy what you say and am glad you have such a compassionate voice. It is always a pleasure. . . even when we disagree. :) I like that you mean what you say!!

He's revealed his name. So he knew what he was walking into. He also expected disagreement and said he didn't mind it. Here it is, folks. He didn't want to fight, he wanted to keep things respectful and decent. He wanted to defend v2p2.. I won't repeat the threat - he apologized for that faux pas. *added - He did show his near worship of v2p2 and was willing to fight over defending the guy.

You know... when I was 22 I was enthusiastic. I went in the worst parts of town and witnessed. BUT I never threatened anyone. I never defended vp as if he were some diamond-studded-gawd-on-a-stick. It never even crossed my mind to consider insults about twi, der victoid, gawd, geezus, or pfal as FIGHTING WORDS. And if I recall correctly, we were taught to behave ourselves with dignity 'so the ministry be not blamed.' We were supposed to have some class. All that is beside the point that I was taught better by my parents. So what does this say about the 'present truth' being sown in Mississippi? Nothing good I'd say.

What?

Go baby go!!!

Didn't read the thread...but still has an opinion...

Cue the theme song from Jeopardy... I'm with the folks who say this whole thing sounds contrived. There was a poster for some time who called himself Roy (I think) who was a big VPW booster. Maybe it's him? <_< JT

Honestly ...I am not thinking about it all that much,I like to take people at there word but,I should know better now after we all got screwed over by dr.fat rat.

No laughing here, I admire Chuck Norris and your point is absolutely valid. Now I understand a little better what you were talking about. Thanks for clarifying :) Way WAY off topic: My very favorite CN story is where he was teaching Steve Mqueen privately, and it was decided that attending a yoga class would help loosen tight muscles. The two macho men were required to don leotards, Chuck using his superior speed and agility to snatch the blue ones leaving Steve the pink....Him telling Steve to suck it up as they left the dressing room in their finery only to have Chuck quickly step back into the dressing room slam and lock the door leaving Steve out in the middle of the studio with all of the tittering ladies dressed in pink leotards :)

Rascal - let's look at this for a moment... A lot of questions have been posed - which S-'09 asked for. Some folks swatted him for asking for respect while he gave none out, Granted, Sower explained that and apologized. But ya' gotta admit that's one heck of a way to enter a crowd - and not a good way. I'll give him lack of wisdom because of his youth. But he did apologize - something I'm still deciding came from him or his leaders. And... now that I think of it... his first post said he'd answer questions... then eventually he posted that he was working 60-70 hours a week. What? He didn't know that he'd be busy when he first made the invitation? I'm thinking that something doesn't smell quite right with this thread... As to how folks are responding... You've posted that you take karate. Think about this for a second, if you will. If you were in a sparring match with a young buck, would you soft touch him or her? The way I see it, S-'09 was asking to spar in his first post. I'd like to see him answer some or all of the questions on this thread. More importantly, I'd like to see the thinking process behind the answers. I just happen to think that the point of this thread was never intended to inform us. I have no delusions that S-'09 will be "rescued" from his cult. He didn't come here to find out more - that's our gig. I'm not of a mind to project my intentions onto this young man. He didn't come here as some lost soul looking for answers. He came here with the intent of telling us how it is - and even that hasn't panned out too well. Now - for a page or two or even three - we're waiting. I'm thinking that if he doesn't answer soon, that the point was to see what fur could fly around here among us. I'm going to sit back and wait. I'm still skeptical as whether or not answers are really forthcoming.

Wow - you are one bitter one eh? Jokes? Humor? All escape you unless you are the center of... oh never mind... I confess you are so much fun. I would never want to constrain you - so much fun just reading your posts - makes my early morning hours more interesting than the news - you still afraid of anthrax? Geezuz go to USAAMRID and get some facts. BTW my daughter wears a class 5 containment suit and has less paranoia than you by a long shot. Go fly to Nicaragua for a nice tropical visit. In fact you most certainly do not need my approval to post your thoughts I just find them entertaining

But twinky he did give information. His age, a little bit about his back ground etc. He really doesn`t owe us anything at all. Seems like a nice guy to me. Young idealistic, on fire for God. He reminds me of us 20 years ago, no? Maybe I am wrong..shrug it was just how I saw things at the time. Otherwise kind and caring people who seemed hostile in their posts. I just wanted to remember that we are talking to a young man whom has not the scope or experience to understand the roots and possible pit falls of this group. I know if folks tried to talk to me about the ministry like we just did when I was his age, I`d have been a lot more provoking...lol I just felt like maybe if we were a bit more understanding, a bit less interrogating, he might get to know and appreciate some of our points of view.

Dear Caleb...you seem like a hard worker that wants to do good,have you ever considered joining the military? I hate to see you waste your life getting sucked into the lies of false teachings by someone trying to make a buck from using a bible. The weirwille legacy is blood on there hands,blood on the plow..and spiritually it IS DARK. (save this..print it out and in 3 or 4 years get it out and read it)it seems like people here are being rude and mean to you BUT////we are really looking out for you because(we have all been there done that and never ever going back again) You have the potential to do good things with your life (don't waste it on v2p2 and a little farm is ole miss) If you go in the military you have a better chance at school, and a career and even if you go to war and get shot it will probably hurt less (than what this so called "twi "did to thousands and thousands of people" Think OUTSIDE the box! How much did this s.o.w.e.r.s. class cost you,and how much have you people been fixing the farm for little victor weirwille? This song reminds me of the way farm and the seeds the planted that were rotten. <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value=" name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

I knew them from West Virginia.. anybody know anything?

If it's noble and all.. I mean.. why the secrecy? It took a BLUNDER on the part on one particular poster to leak that mac is involved.. that its really his "baby".. Go ahead and leave a void.. I don't have much problem filling in blanks..

Sowers grad...I read the part in your post about your willingness to answer questions. Well...are you also interested in ASKING questions?...Are you here to learn?...or are you here to teach? Are you interested in learning HOW and WHY the biblical doctrine of Wierwille was/is wrong? When you claim that the young Wierwille is a "great man of God", what do you base this on?...being a nice guy? having a charismatic personality? the "things" that he teaches? What's your criteria?

Do they teach the "law" of believing?

Hello S.O.W.E.R.S Grad 09, Well, quite an introduction. From some of the things you've written, I gather you've read through some of the posts on this site prior to your first post. You would be aware that most of the participants are not here to paint a rosy picture of the Way International. Many were severely abused as direct or indirect result of Victor Wierwille (the first one) and his Way Corps program (which, IMHO, was and is a complete epic failure). Then comes along the S.O.W.E.R.S. program, which on the surface looks and feels a lot like the Way Corps program, right down to its statement of principles and its motto ("It is written"), located on isolated farmland, etc. What do you think people's initial reaction is going to be? Would you like to discuss your experiences with us?

What planet are you from or have you just been missing from planet earth for a while? You have already shown your lack of respect and decency with the alluded to threat of violence...or was that just the redneck in you coming out? Ya see son - I can make any comment I want to about your idol - legally, ethically and morally. If your disagreeing with my comments results in you knockin' on my door then you are fundamentally embracing felonious and violent criminal behavior. But then again that is nothing new to the wierwille family - not new to any one of the wierwille con men gang of thieves.

welcome---I'll bite How old are you? What is your background? What sort of "christian journey" did you have BEFORE entering the sowers program? What is your profession or current job? family? Are they involved in the Sowers program ? are they supportive? Can you define "great man of God" in understandable clear and realistic terms? What is his background, accomplishments, degrees, etc that entitles him to be that title? What changes have occurred to you since your enrollment in the program? Now that you have graduated what are you doing and what have you initiated? and----just curious.....you dont have to answer this one if you dont want--but c'mon now--it was a curious form of introduction.. Why the anger and threat? Whats that all about?

Thank you, Kimberly. I understand that my family was so much not the only one treated poorly when a loved one dies while any involvement with their organization. I was never very surprised at their actions, frankly. I just oft wished they could have given me a little bit of room to breath and adapt to the so new tragedy before they started chewing me up and trashing a man who loved God greatly and was a really good man who wouldn't have purposely left his family for anything. My husbands family and ours have been doing some reconciling lately and just yesterday I had a wonderful surprise lunch with more family and we discussed how wonderful it would have been if twi would have just embraced me and our daughters, loved us, taken care of us. Simply that. There was one man in leadership that did love these family members and embraced them; for that I'm ever thankful. We just happened to be in an area with a leader who chose to be ugly hearted. I'd do a ton of things different if the time were given to me to do over. We've developed a new normal and we're doing great. Alot of what I learned in twi was how NOT to treat people and in the experiences since when I've needed to comfort those who've lost a loved one, I remember well what hurts, damages, crushes. I get angry when I look at the sweet face of my 14 year old and know she doesn't have daddy, but what is the point in staying angry? I get angry when I consider my oldest who was 15 during all that mess and she remembers how she and her mama were treated. But again, anger doesn't serve us well. Someone here told me recently "not forgiving is like me drinking the poison and hoping they die" I understand that.

I found this study (recently published in the L.A. Times) to be rather enlightening: http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/pdf/2005-11.pdf (Don't be intimidated by the apparent length of it, the last half is simply graphs and footnotes) So the question comes to mind, just what is it that those who are religiously disposed actually "get" out of their faith? Does it make you a better person? More at peace? More loving? More productive? More charitable? What? Worshipping as I do, at the altar of pragmatism, I'm not much inclined to study the Bible anymore, or pray, or make any sort of supplications to a being that may well not even exist. It never did anything for me in the past, and I don't see that pattern changing anytime soon so... But the question still lingers, what is it about one's faith that keeps them coming back? From my perspective I can't see as anyone has had anymore dramatic input from The Almighty than I have. But then, this sort of thing is really subjective. So, what is it? What is it about your beliefs that keep you at it?