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Life is complex. PFAL tried to narrow everything down to a formula that somehow need never change. If you believe, you will receive. If you don't, you won't. If you speak in tongues correctly, you will be in perfect fellowship with God. If you don't, you won't. If you give 15%, your life will be blessed. If you don't, you won't. On and on and on. We were guaranteed that operating these principles would always give the desired results - after all we are talking about God, and if one wasn't getting the desired result, then one had only themselves to blame. PFAL gave easy answers to complex questions. But let's face it, things didn't always work out. I got hit in the face with the insanity of the beliefs relatively early in my time with TWI. I pulled back to a more comfortable level and was able to be in some sort of TWI-style belief system until early 2005. The only reason why I was able to have any involvement was because I had limited involvement, which kept me on the outside. I struggled with doubt (still do), lack of faith (still do), and some guilt (still do), but it was manageable because I didn't have people in my face all the time over what I was or wasn't doing. That was my choice. It turned out to be the right choice for me. When I finally pulled away completely, I felt nothing but relief and have had no regrets - not even the regret of not having done it sooner. I was reading today where doubt can be healthy. It, along with guilt, can be a sign that something is not quite right. These things are not necessarily triggered due to a failure on your part. People who tell you that your failure causes fear, doubt, and guilt are being self-serving. I don't know how many people who read this site are still engulfed in these belief systems and stay due to guilt, fear, and doubt. My question to you is this: Will you consider that God may be trying to reach you and free you from these belief systems? Isn't God bigger than your fear? Your guilt? Your doubt? It really is ok for you to take a step back and work through doubt, guilt, and fear - and do so on your terms. TWI (and splinters) seem to have a low threshold for exploring these things and that is not in your best interest. God will remain God regardless of what you do. TWI (and splinters) may not, but that's really not your problem. Your "problem" is whether you want to remain tethered to a system that causes you to live in fear and guilt, and won't let you honestly explore your doubt. It really is up to you.

Dear Catcup, your post nicely covers one of the things that changed for me since I got to the GSC. I heard a long time ago many credible stories about Wierwille defending folks from oppressive, jerkwater leadership, family, or community based influences. And if that had been the whole story I think it is a fair statement to say that I would be happy still to feel a little love and/or loyalty for the man. But since I came to the GSC another side of Wierwille has been portaid with even more credible testimony than that which served to secure a measure of love for the man. And for the sake of brevity I will use the same "father in the word" analogy that Wierwille used to cause people to become willingly subject to him. It turns out the the supposed "father in the Word" took some of his young daughters and raped them after he drugged them and ripped their clothes off. And that testimony is just as credible and more so than that which I heard from the first. And because some of his sons had the bonds of real marriage and fatherhood with these now raped daughters he relished destroying his sons' lives' if they showed any indication of rejecting his so-called "fatherly guidance." And he only allowed the sons and daughters close to him that participated or at least enabled the systematic rape and/or abuse of his own daughters, causing his own sons and daughters to have blood on their hands too. I don't think highly of the man so much anymore. (Insert your own sarcasm) His love and support only served to hide his lewdness from the rest of us.

I listened to Paw interview Belle this morning. Just makes you wonder where and when God gives revelation to a person that is supposed to be so high and mighty. Just listening to how Belle(joe believer) did things to make twi have to go interview maybe a thousand or so people to try and catch her. Talk about a puppy(twi) chasing its' tail. If you have not listened to the interview, you should Maybe someone can tell me how twi (Gods Ministry :blink: ) could miss so much revelation. Look what happened to the place. It is a shell of what it used to be and really not doing anything to grow. Yes a new class so they can rake in some more money but that is about it. The new pfal class could not have been revelation. They just needed to get craggers face away from twi and now that vpw has been exposed I guess it would not be a good idea to blow the dust off of the tapes. I guess my question to you. How did they miss so much revelation even over the easy things that went on muchless anything big time. Maybe it's as Radar once told me. Things are not nearly as spiritual as twi teaches.

Breaking news from an Innie friend: Great new announcement for followers of The Way: The in-residence Way Corps had the privilege of taking a witnessing and undershepherding class taught by Rev Chavisty. Now on the field, all foundational class grads can take it free of charge. It is a 3 hour class with a break for lunch and 1 hour of witnessing. In addition, there is a new class coming out next year, "The Renewed Mind, Your Key to Power." Dress it up anyway you want, looks a way to get more people and more money. Way disciple and Way Corps numbers are down. Faithful grads are not into witnessing, and lots of fellowships have seen no growth. Classes are hard to run, even though a small branch can run a class with only 3 new people and a medium-sized branch with only 5 new people. What a far cry from the minimum required 7 new people for PFAL - and a branch might run 2-3 classes a year! With numbers falling and income drying up, what a great plan - give people a free taste of Way Corps training. No yelling or browbeating, just a free class to get people to go witness. And once they have taken the class, why would they not want to apply it every week?

After being "outof twi"they did do alot of silly things,y2k,pope buys aircraft, myth of 6 million,hoax of 20th century,the last two being hurtful,as well as decietful. Putting down others so we could be superior.Remember?Whats the profit?It was sensational so it brought monies in.How could I have believed that crap?

I think the following quote is a competent statement about questions that have arisen in this thread. (From “Common Grace,” by Cornelius Van Til) Van Til thus distinguishes between those who are "epistemologically fully self-conscious" "in their rejection of God" and others who have not passed beyond the possibility of redemption. The former have come to be only hated by God, while the latter still reside under a general love God has for his creatures -- a love that God expresses most excellently to them in the general call of the gospel. I would add, however, that, although it is true that God is loving and merciful to his creatures that have not passed beyond the possibility of redemption, is is also true that God never extended his love to fallen angels or reprobate men in his predestining decrees (see Romans 9:11-16). Scripture makes reference to elect angels as well as making reference to elect humans.

One minute, I'm 16, 17 thinking . . . can't wait till I'm 18 and don't have to go to stupid fellowships anymore. WTF's so special about PFAL and twi anyway? Next minute I'm stuck in a white minivan at 3 am on cold January nights. Didn't anyone read my file? *Bolshevik* "Hates going to fellowship and thinks Dr. Ws books contradict each other" maybe it was a punishment, or a scare tactic I got to chase people. That was fun. a few coons weren't so lucky

Step away from the class.

Fellowship, kinda like folks at the local watering hole . . . or an opium house.

Pfal"it was a disgrace for me to ever been in this service."Hey wait vper said he never preached a negative then proceeded to mouth quite a few. One time a tcs kid got married,to a luthern kid,it was a luthern service,I was not personally there wife was, she told this to me.The preacher had the girl deny her service to the way!Then become a luthern! Couple things went on in my mind when I heard it,One ida either rolled on the floor laughing saying,hey tc aint ya gonna say somthing?Or I would have jumped up and told the minister to go f hisself. Since I was not there one will never know,but the tc and his wife had to eat shi@ that day.How do ya raise a kid then have em do that?I lost all respect to the tc and his wife,at least I would have said somthing!

Men in Rainbow Tights Doing the Hot Married Chick in Red Tights Dressed Up in the Devil Outfit? And then all of us got to show it to our kids so they could see what a star he was too? Looking back this stuff is so funny you couldn't put together a comedy routine that would do it justice....

One of the last times I remember WC going "with us" was a gray and very rainy day on the Left Coast when the wonderful BL and his pregnant wife took a bunch of us to this apartment complex and told us in no uncertain terms to go win one for TWI. Of course, this being at that time the least religious city in the country, we got lots of door slammed in our faces. However, the BL and wifey found some sweet little old lady who invited the mommy-to-be in for tea, out of pity for her standing in the rain, and they cozily ensconced themselves around this woman's dining room table, the BL only reappearing from time to time to yell at those of us who were still out stumbling around in the downpour. Such love! Because they were comfortable, we got to witness to everybody in the whole complex, then stand around for an hour waiting to be given permission to go home. When I was on my WOW year our WC BL never went witnessing with us, not even when she told us each twig was to get a class together in one week or leave the field. WG

This got me thinking so here it goes, For what it is worth here is my opinion. I agree with what Twinky wrote about the lack of enthusiasm for way-bots to actually want to witness. Here is what I have seen in the last 10-15 years. This is my opinion of what I have seen and expiernced. Rewind time back to mid 1990’s, P.F.A.L. is going the way of the dinosaur and we have a new hope, a new class for the times. Captain Forehead is in full power. Look at him wrong or question anything and he yells, rants and spits for hours. New light declares there is a devil spirit behind every door and Sh!t can’t just happen because Sh!t happens, it’s because of weakness.. SO confront, confront , confront. People cheer the madness of Captain Forehead and love is lost and replaced with fear. The constant diet of barf, I mean teachings give us an ever-changing doctrine to follow. The hoops we were jumping thru to find grace and favor in Gods eyes keep getting harder. Confrontation is expected on EVERY LEVEL. Everyone was required to open up there lives to leaders. Small infractions are made into mountains. People were hurt, marked and avoided. People who just wanted the love of God, his word and fellowship with like-minded believers were tossed aside and their reputations were tarnished. Because any weakness was unacceptable. Captain Forehead was taking us to the promised land of the prevailing word, there would be causalities weakness and fear was not acceptable. The machine kept turning and people were chewed up and spit out. Friends for years turned against each all in the name of God. People who stood up to the madness and fought for truth were quickly shown the door. This example taught followers of the way to turn off their emotions and let there brothers and sisters in Christ be abused. After all, we were the chosen group of God and if they could not be meek to the NEW LIGHT and REVELATION Captain Forehead was getting directly from God. It was their loss, and at least it was not me called to that meeting where you had the privilege and honor to be yelled at and spit on for hours. The new class that CONFRONTS the illogic of the world with the logic of the word rolls out. People see the monster for what he is, a yelling screaming mad man. No debt Homo purge Y2K conspiracy Eve is a lesbian and if you don’t see it in the Word like I do just trust me. His word is law The Pope wants an aircraft carrier? Everyone is seed Everyone in the Way is safe from the devil (just not way corp. they will get you) Weakness always brings down strength Be an advanced class grad or your dirt All is not well in way world. Lots of questions but no answers just way corp. in your life. People afraid of everything, fear take over peoples lives. Things people are afraid of, Getting yelled at Missing a meeting Not witnessing No one new at fellowship Debt Any form of weakness Asking a question or questiong any thing A friend or spouse rating you out to leadership There is no more cheering Captain Forehead only fear of him and his way-corp. Nazis. There is no where to run and hide, you have tossed all your friends family and coworkers Aside for the Way International and you have no support except the Way. The problem is the Way stole your life, freewill, heart, money, time and love has been replaced with fear. Your life is filled with fellowships three times a week, one night to witness, a leaders meeting and my favorite the meeting where you or someone you love is confronted. The one day off is spent moving or cleaning or setting up something. Your ready to snap. You just want some time for you and the family, but your vacation has to be approved by leadership. You wonder how you got in this mess. What happened to the love? Where is God? How can I be so unworthy? Why can I not have it together Like Captain Forehead or my way corp. leadership? Why was I called to this great household of God? Why am I not meek to change. Why do I do not believe big enough or give enough? This is what I am being told by leaders and every STS. Then the unspeakable happens, Captain Forehead gets busted. The Fox is now in charge. When they confirm her as Prez ,it is said in manifestations she is to be the healer of people’s hearts. Don’t yell at me, I am just reporting facts. Fellowships are cut back to twice a week and people are encouraged to get involved in their communities. Way corp. are told that they are to serve the people not be served. The burden of all your time being consumed by the way is gone. People can take a breath. Rules are still there but, your not getting smacked as hard or as often. The evil is still there but not publicly enforced. The Way goes in to self-preservation mode. Captain Forehead is gone and instead of a taskmaster, we have an old witch. She is evil but wants to keep people around so she can live off the ABS. She realized LCM was a paranoid freak who thought everyone was out to get him and just about killed the cash cow. Love is still not there but at least people are not getting there a$$ kicked everyday. Freedom is still not there but at least people feel like they have some. The hippie days are gone and people are so brain washed on VP kool-aid. No other doctrine fits their beliefs so they must stay. 10- 20 -30-40 year service awards for faithfulness are handed out. Life was so bad at one time in the Way, but we as a household made it. People are happy to stay because it’s different now. People are content playing church. Because they fit in nowhere else. Backbiting and tattle telling is over and brainwashed people stick to gather again Fast forward, a few years and people chose to remeberthe past but will not speak of it. The internet has pages devoted to all the dirty little secrets about The Way. People have stayed In the way but have doubts and fears. Trust is an issue with leadership. Since life is not so bad anymore with a taskmaster, they get lulled to sleep again. They know its far from perfect like the good old VP days but hey its there little cult, I mean household. Witnessing is definitely out in most older grads minds. They have been thru hell and back and are embarrassed to bring people to fellowship. Everyone knows what is on the internet about the Way, and if a new person finds it and wants to talk about it, what defense do they have? None. They will be exposed as the village idiot for staying with the wacky cult for so long. Therefore, you see the old witch has to drum up something new to keep the money rolling in. Numbers are down, people leave, kids grow up and run like hell. This is my take on things an I am sorry its so long. Copenhagen

OMG, THANK YOU Rejoice!!!!!!! Nicely said! Sadly, this will NEVER occur to them. Too bad they hide in their little controlled WayWeirdWorld, nobody can see their "greatness." What a bunch of freaks. JT

all 3 are now on CD. Ithink TWI, CFFM, S&TF, etc. focus more on doctrine and will mention SIT/glossalia which might upset some CCM fans of which some will and others don't speak in tongues. Always thought it gutsy and arrogant to imply do it or you ain't a true Christian. How do I compare Rueben Morgan's My Redeemer Lives to Good Seed's God resurrected Christ his Son? Both are fine until the line I speak in tongues. Again Eagle's Wings(Hillsongs or Michael Joncas) as oppossed to Pressed Down's version. That line SIT, bit off standish/smug. Sorry Ralph, Paul and Joe but the above mentioned sentiment is true.

as long as the stank and file can sit around pretending they are the light of the earth and they can look down on everyone else, judging our every decision, they will keep doing it.

Satan causes constipation?...and I though it was that block of cheese I ate.

i hate to pull up Godwins Law but that strategy IS directly from the Third Reich. "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it" Joseph Goebbels

Eighty percent, eh? Wonder where they come up with that statistic. They never say, they just make the claim. No scientific backup, no footnotes, just make the claim big enough, loud enough, long enough, people will believe you.

This reminds me of a room mate on shrooms once Stoned Little Kid After Dentist Visit - Watch more Funny Videos

LOL This is so cute and sad at the same time and yes little kid it is forever you are on the internets HEhehehe

Dear Mom & Dad, Our Scoutmaster told us to write to our parents in case you saw the flood on TV and are worried. We are okay. Only one of our tents and 2 sleeping bags got washed away. Luckily, none of us got drowned because we were all up on the mountain looking for Adam when it happened. Oh yes, please call Adam's mother and tell her he is okay. He can't write because of the cast. I got to ride in one of the search and rescue jeeps. It was neat. We never would have found Adam in the dark if it hadn't been for the lightning. Scoutmaster Ted got mad at Adam for going on a hike alone without telling anyone. Adam said he did tell him, but it was during the fire so he probably didn't hear him. Did you know that if you put gas on a fire, the gas will blow up? The wet wood didn't burn, but one of the tents did and also some of our clothes. Matthew is going to look weird until his hair grows back. We will be home on Saturday if Scoutmaster Ted gets the bus fixed. It wasn't his fault about the wreck. The brakes worked okay when we left. Scoutmaster Ted said that with a bus that old, you have to expect something to break down; that's probably why he can't get insurance. We think it's a neat bus. He doesn't care if we get it dirty, and if it's hot, sometimes he lets us ride on the fenders. It gets pretty hot with 45 people in a bus made for 24. He let us take turns riding in the trailer until the highway patrol man stopped and talked to us. Scoutmaster Ted is a neat guy. Don't worry, he is a good driver. In fact, he is teaching Jessie how to drive on the mountain roads where there aren't any cops. All we ever see up there are logging trucks. This morning all of the guys were diving off the rocks and swimming out to the rapids. Scoutmaster Ted wouldn't let me because I can't swim, and Adam was afraid he would sink because of his cast (it's concrete because we didn't have any plaster), so he let us take the canoe out. It was great. You can still see some of the trees under the water from the flood. Scoutmaster Ted isn't crabby like some scoutmasters. He didn't even get mad about the life jackets. He has to spend a lot of time working on the bus so we are trying not to cause him any trouble. Guess what? We have all passed our first aid merit badges. When Andrew dove into the lake and cut his arm, we got to see how a tourniquet works. Steven and I threw up, but Scoutmaster Ted said it probably was just food poisoning from the left-over chicken. He said they got sick that way with food they ate in prison. I'm so glad he got out and became our scoutmaster. He said he sure figured out how to get things done better while he was doing his time. By the way, what is a pedal-file? I have to go now. We are going to town to mail our letters & buy some more beer and ammo. Don't worry about anything. We are fine and tonight it's my turn to sleep in the Scoutmaster's tent. Love, Jimmie

a lot of empty rooms.. yep.. may they never be filled..

No, I don't think they're really thinking when they do this. That attachment is to twi is still lodged in their minds. But I think many of the much more sane one's still feel that attachment. "spiritual home" may be a correct description, whether the "spiritual" exists or not.

My first one was 1975...a lot of hippies doing their own thing...unstructured, free for all...it was fun. Of course, they changed all that...the creepy little control freaks started regulating everything...it went down the toilet fast.

Yes a disservice was done to us,was it unique?Mother in law told me it happened when her church spilt over an issue. Vic was not unique in what he did to us the "woodstock"generation. Bottom line is you cannot follow a man.

...and I won't deny you the right to believe it...or any other baloney that Vic taught...was ANY of it true?...probably not but if it was, he did a disservice to the truth by his lifestyle and track record of stealing and lying...no credibility.

Another one was the apostles prophets pastors evangilists and teachers,how supposedly "they" held the body of christ together.No one is"spiritually responsible" for me. Control factor 101.

When I took it, it was recommended we don't take notes, but that was not mandatory. The idea was that whoever thought that rule up was incapable of focusing on a class while taking notes. Some of us, however, were excellent at doing that- and retained material BETTER if we took notes. At the end of the first segment, someone recommended I take my notes directly into the syllabus rather than in a separate book. This made sense- I was juggling a syllabus, Bible and a notebook. Taking notes into the syllabus meant I could put down the notebook. Writing down questions was something else-I didn't have any of those written down.

!!! C[_]

The aforementioned information that was applied to many brains across the world has been recalled. The information has been proven to be fundamentally defective. Application and ingestion has been discovered to be harmful and even toxic. Do not apply or take internally under any circumstances. Keep out of reach of children. If accidentally ingested, immediately flush with the light of day and several gallons of Greasespotcafe "foglifter" brand, strong, black coffee, straight from the forums. Follow with a liberal application of free thought.

My personal experience with VPW? Two very, very different people. While in residence in 1975, I discovered my sister had suddenly been sent home from the WOW field. My parents had to go pick her up. She was silent the entire trip home from S.Carolina to Indiana. Cried for weeks, would not eat, could not sleep. Parents called me wondering what happened, and what to do for her-- she wouldn't tell them what happened. I figured I'd ask VP personally, since he would be at Emporia, and had just visited my sister prior to her being sent home. The conversation between "Me & VP"? Very terse, curt. I asked him what happened to her on the field, since she was so vibrant and happy when my parents had visited several weeks before. "She just couldn't handle the WOW field" was the sharp reply. Very intimidating. I found out what actually happened to her only after leaving TWI several decades later. VPW had behaved in a very sexually inappropriate way towards my 17 year old virgin sister. No wonder VP didn't want to talk about it. Fast forward to 1981. Marital problems and problems with state leadership in IL. I had been approaching state leadership about problems my husband had with drinking. At the time, Geek wasn't owning up to his problem and was saying I had an "aversion" to alcohol. State leadership took his side. Long story short, at what was supposed to be a Thanksgiving dinner for the Corps in IL, I was singled out by the Limb leader and area leaders and and blamed for "ruining" Geek's ministry. Geek was embarassed cuz I stared at him the whoie time, and he knew the truth. I got up in the middle of the meeting, told them "F*** you. I don't want anything to do with you or your ministry" and I walked out. Geek walked out with me and apologized all the way home. We ceased going to any local or state functions for TWI, and sent our ABS straight to HQ, bypassing the state. We went to HQ a couple months later for a research meeting and while there I made an appointment with VPW to discuss our problems with each other and with the State leadership in IL. While recounting the Thanksgiving incident and describing all the things the Limb leader was accusing me of in this Thanksgiving "ambush", before I could finish, VPW said "Aw, honey, I woulda said 'F*** you' and walked out!" I burst into tears. VPW looked at Geek and said, "What's the matter with her?" With great pride, Geek said, "Sir, that's exactly what she did!" VPW laughed and said "That's my girl!" After kicking Geek's behind and giving him some directives, VPW built us a fire in his study, told us to stay there as long as we wanted, and was off to a meeting. Then, VPW called the limb coordinator of IL and told him to meet him in Rome City. The limb coordinator got a good @$$ kicking there, and nearly lost his job. Those two incidents comprise the most important personal contact I ever had with VPW and illustrate how he could be cruel and cold on one hand, and warm and responsive on the other. I think it is also why you get polarized views regarding VPW. Some people only saw the "warm fuzzy" side to VPW (I'm talking emotionally here) and so vehemently defend him. Other people only saw the cruel side, and vehemently condemn him. I saw both. He could be patient, loving, understanding, and kind, when he wanted to be. But he could also be calculating and cold. He used people for his own pleasure, not considering the damage that he might be doing to them, and the repurcussions to those women for the rest of their lives. You will find many incidents of both nice and nasty when it comes to VPW. He could help repair marriages and mend hearts. He could also dash them to pieces, and did, frequently.