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I'll probably go along the lines of what a lot of folks have already said, like taking it slow and allowing them to make their own decision. And another thing - taking a cue from Skyrider - I'd take into account the innie's experience AND their current level of involvement.... but something just as critical - perhaps even a prerequisite, is that THEY would be the one to initiate the dialogue - whether it would be an old way-friend contacting me or a new member on Grease Spot - I think it is appropriate for THEM to make the first move in expressing some interest in why l left or why there is Grease Spot. If they blew me off or blew off Grease Spot after what I had to say - I promise I'd keep it short and (bitter)-sweet ...then oh well, I'd wish them the best on their journey. However - if they stick around and give any indication that there is some doubt gnawing at that back of their mind - I would want to know more about their experience and level of involvement with TWI. I'd give a good listen and find something of all that I could relate to and then maybe share something of my own experience - that hopefully would resonate with them. The last thing I would ever want to do is talk them out of or into anything! I think if the person is really wanting to figure out where TWI is at ....or wierwille, way doctrine & practice....or whatever it is that's been sitting on the back burner in their craw - perhaps someone honestly speaking the truth on a particular matter may actually crank up the heat on that. I think they have to come to some type of realization THEMSELVES - that they figure it out - or else they will torture themselves with fear they've been entertaining devil spirits , tricked by the devil, playing with Fire, thinking worldly, etc....yes this is perhaps the loneliest part - the most scariest part of the whole ordeal - THEY have to decide for themselves.

What is the one, or two things that you would tell an "innie" so that they could decide for themselves if they were being deceived or not. How could they really "Know". Keep in mind we have all talked about the "Past" here. And even if they have read some things, or even a lot of things, it was what happened BACK then and not NOW. The goal here is to give them something to help them make a decision on their own, to come to their own conclusions, not make the decision for them...and to not belittle them for being in. I would say to them, you really have to start trusting yourself and what you think.

Sorry, I don't usually follow zombie stuff. I liked "Shawn of the Dead", but that's about it. I saw the first few episodes of "TWD", but lost interest around when it was becoming clear it was a planet-wide disaster. I don't follow movies/shows that are guaranteed downers-I want some hope and some chance for a happy ending of some kind. I don't need to turn on a TV if I want something depressing.

I wonder what it would take to convert the thing into a high security prison?

If they still have The House of His Healing Presence in storage somewhere, they could reconstruct it and turn it into a BBQ smoke shack. That's where Wierwille got his pork pulled.

It would be a good site for The Museum of Human Gullibility. but I'd prefer to see it made into low income or senior housing for the folks who spent most of their lives there and have nothing to show for it-

Perhaps the state of Ohio will buy it and turn it into a maximum security prison for sex offenders. ...I think that would be fitting. ...make the sex perverts mow the grass and dig the ditches... ...instead of them ordering others to do it.

I agree 100% with Sunesis...I think Wierwille was a master con man...it's questionable whether he was even a Christian. He certainly fits the biblical description of a false prophet A drunkard, a liar and a womanizer...he had absolutely no regard for anyone except himself.

You know, I feel VP didn't really believe the Bible and I don't believe he ever in his life had an original thought about it. All of his classes, books, characters (Johnny Jump up, etc.), and even incidents were taken from someone else. Remember, we didn't have internet back then and I think he had no idea how he would be found out in the future. I think he read and memorized a lot - he learned his lines, so to speak, as an actor would - so he could play the "preacher/teacher part" beloved by the gullible little kiddies as he laughed all the way to the bank on whatever his most recent Harley was. So, that book has some topics I've heard VP touch on - like the Deborah section. You know, it wouldn't surprise me at all if he took things out of there for teachings. People used to ooh and ahhh about his "knowledge" - today, its all out there to find if you dig hard enough. As I said, that looks like it would have been a good book for him to use.

Here's something that maybe a bit of a tangential thought. In about 1978-1980, there was a big push for believers who owned companies to hire other believers. Now, along with that, the owners were "encouraged" to pay their employees on a "needs" basis. How exactly do you determine those needs without sticking your nose into private financial matters where it doesn't belong? When I first heard about this, I knew people who were on both sides of the deal. (employer/employee) From the very start, I thought it was a load of cr@p. And, I was not at all reluctant to tell my wife (now ex-wife) exactly how I felt. She, on the other hand, was sure it must be right because it was coming from "on high", so to speak. We had some heated discussions on the matter, which led to heated discussions/disagreements on various other Way doctrine. Did that lead to our split? Probably not. It surely didn't promote "harmony in the home", though.

The part that I found most disturbing was the fact that people were REQUIRED to disclose their personal financial situation to twi. Teach what they may, they had no right to stick their noses in people's private business. How many other churches do this? I left before this "policy" became strict law...but while I was in, I always told twi leadership that my personal financial situation was none of their business.

Nor did they ever have to move themselves. If they ever did, they would have had someone do it for them.

yes i would concur i think god is very loving

The biggest lie is that walking away from TWI is walking away from God. LIE Every step away from TWI is a step toward God.

Been out for 23 years and so my mind has straightened out considerably. So hearing this, my first thought was, That is just crazy.....that people would believe something like people looking like VP because of a familiar spirit. So, it just is so "far out there", my mind can't wrap itself around the idea....which tells me, my mind must be in pretty good shape!

I'm a little more blunt than some... I would tell them of my twi "credentials"...how I was a part of this organization for 13 years... I would tell them how I went out wow and then into the corps...I would tell them how I personally knew VPW and LCM...and I would tell them that they are involved with an abusive cult and that they should run like hell.

newlife.....for me, it all depends on who "an innie" is? 1) a staff person? 2) an innie on the field? 3) corps? adv class grad? newbie? 4) what experiences has this innie had with twi? Giving broad-stroke suggestions or advice is of little value. Each person has a unique set of experiences that interlace with a backdrop of family, friends, education, social and spiritual networks, etc. There are plenty of scriptural references that give us understanding towards "a word fitly spoken." Someone on the field, depending on their experiences, classes taken, local leadership......the opportunity to share your suggestions or advice is far greater. But if the local corps goes on a yelling spree, it would be a safe bet that they might be giving you a phone call first. (hahaha) In my opinion, the hq-staffer is ensnared more than any other "innie." Once again though, depending on the number of years on staff, level of involvement, degree of commitment, job satisfaction, your relationship with the staffer, etc.....it seems fair to say that few would listen you out. Unless.....you see it firsthand, and exit.

I'm thankful I was on Staff. Had I not been, I wouldn't have seen the top leadership in action. It was while I was on Staff that I realized there really isn't a MOG. Anyone claiming that title is full of $h!t because they put their shoes on and think the same way anyone else does. I saw LCM's limitations, flaws, and eccentricities. They weren't pretty the majority of the time. Then Rozilla isn't so great either. She does not go out of her way to be friendly, and her lack of public appearance lead me to believe she was full of $h!t as well. Then when she personally chewed my arse, I knew she was no better than LCM. My time at HQ and the leadership wanting to take control of my life once I left Staff made me realize I didn't want any part of them ever again.

I like the way you think newlife. Speaking of which... I doubt the average member of the Way of average intelligence and education, y'know, the average guy or gal, feels they've given up their free will or is brainwashed or secretly wonders about their fellowships shrinking. If they're involved in the day to day's they know what's going on in their immediate realm. If they accept it, they're fine with it. If they wonder "why" this or that they would only need to ask and if they're rebuffed in a manner they find offensive or dishonest, well there you go, process started. I always recommend to people in general and it would apply here - it's healthy to remain somewhat independent from the influence of others, while allowing open range for relationships and learning. I've always been that way. It works - you can be as tight as blink in an eye with someone else and still be your own person. I do agree, if I read you right - telling them someone else did something 30, 20, 10, 1 year ago may have little or no impact. Whatever matters to people most is what matters most - they're immediate affairs and what impacts them and those close to them. I'm a big fan of leaving people alone - something that Americans have a hard time doing despite our death-grip on what we loosely call "freedom". It can be hard as hail though to actually find people who will do that. We all think it's in everyone's best interests to be bugging the crap out of each other, for our own good. We mean well, we want the "best" for everyone but isn't that.....well, doesn't it sound familiar in a reverse kind of way? ..... "This is in your best interests because if you only knew better you'd be better off. Like me." The idea of making a decision "on their own" - they already have. If they're happy they're happy. You're right (li'l joke there) - it's completely useless to impose a bunch of moral issues in a theoretical vacuum and hope anyone's going to care. Some maybe, to some extent but really, there's no solid outcome you can expect from it and if there is it's accidental. Try asking the person what their own impressions are and their own feelings and thoughts about their participation. Then respond to that. If they're within the laws of the land and accceptable social norm's for the society we live in and aren't harming small animals, I don't get into other people's shorts unless - important caveat - I feel they're/our/mine health and safety is at risk. I concede there's some subjectivity to that call. That being the case I proceed respectfully, as you are, remembering to not impose my own highly enlightened and obviously superior ideas on them. Well, not at first anyway. I wait till they like me, than I bomb them. :biglaugh:

When I was still in, my family was made mark and avoid. They pressured me to get out... told me horrible stories about the abuses in TWI. Told me I was brainwashed, controlled, etc... I would try and explain that I believed them, but that where I was was a nice place (which was true!) My mother told me that I wasn't speaking for myself, that I was only speaking what The Way told me to speak. She told me that I was being controlled. This is one of the things that led to me cutting off all contact with them when it was suggested I do so by my leadership... I felt like my mother and father DIDN'T RESPECT ME. That they thought I was an idiot. That they didn't believe I was capable of thinking for myself. I was over at my mom's recently, and was talking about someone I know who is still in. My mom told me, "Wayfers are stupid. They have no brain. They are incapable of thinking for themselves!" It still hurt to hear her say that. And then I realized something... I LEFT OF MY OWN ACCORD. It was my OWN DECISION to leave. I didn't get kicked out or marked and avoided like my parents. I made the decision on my own. Even while in the cult, I HAD FREE WILL. Was I manipulated? Yes. Did I believe a lot of lies? Yes. And when I finally saw it for what it was, I LEFT. I told my mom, "People in the Way still have their own minds. They can still think for themselves. They are just influenced by The Way... If they couldn't think for themselves, if they had 'no brains' then The Way wouldn't be losing followers left and right. People can make up their own minds, and they can see the hypocrisy if they choose to open their eyes." Therein lies the rub - THEY have to CHOOSE for THEMSELVES.... and by telling them that they can't think for themselves you are implying that they are powerless, weakminded people... and it doesn't help them. It only diminishes you in their eyes. Walk carefully with those who are still in. They are condemned enough by the TWI leadership machine. They are guilted enough. They are disrespected enough. The best thing you can do for those who are in is show them there is another way, a way out. Show them that TWI's lies about what happens when you leave are false. Show them that the adversary will not send devil spirits to possess you if you leave. Show them they can be free and happy and blessed, and that God will not desert them. Just give them love without condemnation and conditions. They don't get that within TWI. I realized during that same conversation with my mother that all those conversations where she told me how controlled I was, how brainwashed I was, how weak I was... It helped to drive me away from her and further into TWI. Not that any of that is my mother's fault. It's not... TWI is solely to blame for the schism in my family... but those conversations didn't help heal it.

I would tell them to ask themselves if they are really truly happy with being in twi... Are they living the "more abundant life" and do they know of anyone who is? Is every day sweeter than the one before? Is fellowship a burden or a blessing? Is the love of God evident? Are they learning anything? And, if things have changed for the better, how come no one has ever apologized to those who were hurt? ***edite for spelling.

The difference is...... After LCM graduated from the 2nd corps, he was consistently assigned to hq-staff positions....ie corps director, president-elect, president. At NO interval was LCM sent on the field to run a Limb or Region (maybe Oklahoma, for a short year, ??)....to make his mark (mark off territory) and establish a loyal following like the other splinter guys. Shr0yer...........Florida/Ohio S33d..............California Lynn..............Indiana Finnig@n..........New York C@rr..............New York Geer..............New England area/International S@nn..............Montana/Idaho Many of the splinter guys were Region guys who simply STAYED IN THE REGIONS after Geer's poop paper hit the toilet. No stress, so strain......these guys just assumed "the top position" of new structures, new splinter groups. LCM had NO "base camp" to return to.......he was NEVER on the field in any major position of authority. In many ways, he was an exception to the rule......most all other 'leaders' were sent on field assignments throughout their twi tenure.

The opera ain't over 'til the fat dude in leotards sings.