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(Hope OK to do this; don't want the discussion to be buried in the old way tapes!) A few quotes from the Old Way Tapes thread that are on this excellent needed topic IMO, and my thankful reply: He was grooming us to extend our bounderies of acceptance. (Sorry, the belows didn't copy well) [Waysider posted: He was grooming us to extend our bounderies of acceptance.] [T-Bone posted: I agree. Wierwille’s modus operandi was in developing an undercurrent that grew stronger as one became more involved with the organization (like joining programs and staff). Undercurrent: an underlying feeling or influence, especially one that is contrary to the prevailing atmosphere and is not expressed openly; a current of water below the surface and moving in a different direction from any surface current…teachings available to the general public were seemingly benign promoting study of the Bible, offering keys to overcoming adversity and finding fulfilment in life. All that supposedly wholesome sounding Bible stuff on the surface hides the undertow. You'll find it's all about wierwille's skewed interpretation of the Bible commingled with lies... Your hopes and dreams become entangled with the busy work of the ministry. Any false sense of happiness and fulfillment really depends on how much you commit to an organization. Christian, beware these are treacherous waters! The deeper you go the more you find wierwille’s influence leading you further and further away from the simple and honest life of a Christian. Wierwille was like Captain Nemo and my experience in TWI was like twenty thousand (or more) lies under the sea.] Me, Annio now: Well expressed and Ah YES, THANK YOU!!! These posts are extremely helpful to me for several reasons- 1) Am still recovering from various way ministry abuses and they give needed big picture context 2) Have had discussions with an old friend recently who still connects to/with Chris Geer folks; now I can see more clearly the reasons for her continued adulation of vpw and inability/ unwillingness to accept the trauma that I went through. 3) I can see parallels betw the modus operandi of vpw and Harvey Weinsten, Jeffrey Epstein, Catholic priests, et al. Weinstein was a bully in general, several ppl testified, so naturally this can extend to a man's sexual relationships with women who need his support/connection to advance their careers. A male assistant said working for him was like "being in a cult". Vpw was a bully with power in general, and used sex as a way to bring "privileged" young women into his inner circle using his false mog persona. There are numerous parallels between all of these predators, the normalizing cultures around them, the addictions they had, the sense that they were untouchable re: the law/consequences, etc. 4) All of this is building up my desire to DO something. Since I left the way in '88 and transitioned with others into Chris Geer's fold for a good while, and since CG led me to the motor coach in '80, I did research and found his home address: 13 Casselton Rd, Raymond, ME, 4071-6727. Maybe I will write him a letter... Maybe I will write Kris Skedgell about how much her wonderful book Losing the Way meant to me; she was at the family camp where I took PFAL in '74 (and where a young man just about seduced me)... Maybe I will contact the young leader who helped himself to me during my way corps interim year (so ironic that vpw taught [oh so benignly as has been said] that 1 Cor 7:1 could read "a man should not help himself to a woman"... Talk about reverse undercurrents...). We shall see... Maybe CFF folks would give a listening ear? That would be helpful. They have alot of my trust in other areas; DWBH's sharing about his conversation with Kevin Gigou and I think Sarah, confirmed my positive regard for them. 5) And all of this is building up my desire to find some closure, as much as is possible here on this earth. We shall see! Yep, I have been able to process alot by posting here; apologies if I share too much info... So good to know you all are here!! And maybe I can support others on their journeys from time to time. Cheers, and best to you all!!

Mornin' y'all, I was born into this ministry about 21 years ago to two Way Corps(e? lol) ministers who worked at HQ from I don't know when to 2013. That means- yes, your logical inferences are correct- I had to spend my entire childhood living in f*cking New Knoxville, OH. There were, I think, only two other kids my age who were born in '98 and stayed through '13; certainly there were none whose parents were fired in '13. So I'm sure whatever poor guy they've got monitoring this has already deductively identified me- but I don't care, I've already put my name to a review on Google Maps. 2 stars, I have only good memories of the food, especially that dope foot split pea soup. To give you an idea of the enduring psychological pain I've got, just writing that opener means my arms have started shaking and my mind has sorta gone blank. The shrink at my college told me I've got PTSD, though she was a PHD student so that's no official diagnosis. In the few years I've been out, I've managed to forget a lot, but I see that y'all are curious for what goes on past 2000, and I think it'll be a good exercise for me to try and remember. So any questions you've got about HQ, or even through R&R- my parents still keep up with that- I'm right here. I'll just use the rest of this post to detail the circumstances of our leaving, since I think they're pretty emblematic of the, uh, dank authoritarian vibes leadership has kept up past the Martindale era. In the 2011-2012 school year I was in eighth grade and I developed this illness which was pretty bad- kept me out of school almost every day in April of that year. My attendance freshman year was even worse; I think I missed close to 1/3 of all school days. What was this illness, you ask? The main symptom was very intense physical stomach pain- which doctors couldn't explain after 2 endoscopes and a colonoscopy. My personal theory is that it was literally a physical incarnation of the stress I was under, since it sort of magically disappeared about 6 months after my family left NK. Correlation =/= causation and all that, but whatever. So anyway, I go into sophomore year and rack up like 7 absences in 3 weeks and NKHS tells my parents look, ya kid is a straight-A student who easily passes his tests without attending class but we just can't do this relationship anymore because we're unwilling to bend our absence policy. So I'm politely shown the door to this alternative online high school. That's all it took, folks. See, Rivenbark apparently does not believe that online school is a place that good Way Corps should send their kids. So two weeks after my parents make this decision, she gets Phil to summarily fire them from their severely underpaid HQ jobs. (Thank god, maybe they still have time to save for retirement.) Then about a year later, they're booted from the core. It was my dream to be a Way Corps member through 9th grade, guys I was 100% sold. Now I flinch when I hear church music- I heard Rise and Shine a couple months ago and had a full-on mental breakdown. My parents have gone from making me speak in tongues to pleading with me to not give up on God. My honest response to that is that whatever God I believed in in childhood is 6 feet under, the new meme is judging people based on their actions and words instead of automatically hating gay people. I think I love them too much to ever say that, especially since sometimes I think otherwise about the first part. Anyway, thanks for reading, peace.

I like the total of 1 comment at the very bottom of their web page. But I must say...I really like the comment. LOL

Something I missed before, but caught my eye now...... twi is still teaching to "hate gay people"? Is it really true that nobody knows that rosalie rivenbark- expresident and current power-behind-the-throne- that same rosalie fox rivenbark is gay? This was an open secret in certain circles once upon a time. Has that become a complete secret now?

I agree. Wierwille’s modus operandi was in developing an undercurrent that grew stronger as one became more involved with the organization (like joining programs and staff). Undercurrent: an underlying feeling or influence, especially one that is contrary to the prevailing atmosphere and is not expressed openly; a current of water below the surface and moving in a different direction from any surface current…teachings available to the general public were seemingly benign promoting study of the Bible, offering keys to overcoming adversity and finding fulfilment in life. All that supposedly wholesome sounding Bible stuff on the surface hides the undertow. You'll find it's all about wierwille's skewed interpretation of the Bible commingled with lies... Your hopes and dreams become entangled with the busy work of the ministry. Any false sense of happiness and fulfillment really depends on how much you commit to an organization. Christian, beware these are treacherous waters! The deeper you go the more you find wierwille’s influence leading you further and further away from the simple and honest life of a Christian. Wierwille was like Captain Nemo and my experience in TWI was like twenty thousand (or more) lies under the sea.

And further..... As a charlatan and sexual predator, wierwille preemptively set "scriptural ground rules" by moving boundary lines. In teaching his "Christian Family and Sex" class (1975)..... wierwille instructed this class as if he had professional expertise in this area. Yet, in effect..... wierwille was setting the foundation for future, sexual predation as many of these women would go on staff or corps. In teaching the "casual nature of sex," vpw was minimizing/eliminating precious boundaries and protocols found in scripture. By illustrating and describing genitalia in this context and class, wierwille was advocating pre-marital sex. At no time in this class, or throughout wierwille's teachings.....does wierwille EVER teach on the sin of adultery! ~~~~~~~~~ Therefore....... Anyone who was involved in wierwille's advanced teaching series (or corps training)........ were vulnerable and susceptible to sexual targeting. It has been well-documented that some of wierwille's victims *groomed* other women to his lair, the motor coach. Still others...... were blindsided when they entered his motor coach and saw the implications of this "invite" to be with him. And others...... were given alcohol or drugged so that wierwille could have his way with them. The trustees and emeritus knew the dark secrets and crimes!! that were perpetrated in the servitude of "the man of God." Don, Howard, Craig, Donna, Rosalie and wierwille's valets, bodyguards, bus drivers, pimps, etc...... were all enablers in this seduction. An inner circle of zealots and opportunists were **in on the game that was being played**......and then, poof........they, too, disappeared. Hiding in Plain Sight........it is ALL so obvious now. Yet, many of us were so busy jumping thru hoops..... we were not privy to it. Plus....... we were indoctrinated to NOT even consider (Eve's downfall was that she considered) that *The Teacher* was a sex pervert [pfal]. ~~~~~~~~~ Concluding.... Greasespot Café has been shouting from the rooftops for nearly 20 years to expose twi's manipulation and exploitation. When Wierwille died......Chris Geer stepped forward to protect and RESTORE the "legacy of victor paul wierwille." When Craig Martindale was ousted for "extra marital affairs"......that should have been THE END of twi. Yet........Rosalie rallied the corps to stand with her and RESTORE the ministry. Another 16 years of "rebuilding"....??? Today....more splinter groups have risen from the ashes to claim the mantle of "Revival and Restoration." Huh? Why is it?........these newly-exited clergy and corps censor anyone who declares or asks the hard questions of the past? Why is it?........none of these splinter cult leaders have addressed the moral depravity and criminal nature in vpw/twi? Why is it?........that, even to this day, there are those who claim to have been a part of something that was great? Great????........when EVERTHING in wierwille's cult.....classes, programs, campuses, legacy......has burned to the ground.

I think this thread is also another reminder to those who have already been seduced by TWI and may feel they have some vague inkling they have been duped. I left in 86’ and looking back on my somewhat lengthy exit experience – I’ve come to the conclusion my decision to leave was ultimately more about the methods of TWI to shore up their doctrine and practices rather than about any particular doctrine itself. Rocky and Word Wolf have made excellent points about regret; we are only human – imperfect and unfortunately without a time machine – so we can’t go back and re-do situations where we screwed up, failed or were taken advantage of by others. Rather, I believe being human and imperfect we are nonetheless endowed by our Creator with some kind of “indomitable machine” that enables us to bounce back from failures and overcome obstacles. Regret is to feel sad, repentant, or disappointed over something that has happened or been done, especially a loss or missed opportunity; to feel sorry or unhappy about something you did or were unable to do…There will always be regrets - - but if we never felt sad, repentant or disappointed over something that happened where would the impetus come from to decide to change our course of action? I also tend to think the stronger the regret, the stronger is the stimulus that drives us to change something. We may not yet know what that something is – but we still may find that the gears are already in motion in our head – to question, to challenge, to modify how we look at something. After a while – I think you may find the baby steps you’ve taken and what you’ve achieved and have to be thankful for will by far outweigh the regrets. I said leaving TWI was a long and slow process for me. It was a series of baby steps. Doing something – even something small - is better than doing nothing. Back then there was no Grease Spot …Penworks had not yet written “Undertow”. I did my own research on doctrine and practice – even looked at books outside of those promoted by TWI, did a lot of thinking…questioning…challenging… talking to others who had left TWI or were thinking about leaving. I Thessalonians 5:21 was my motto during these baby steps times “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good”. You may want to spend more effort in scrutinizing the methods and practices of TWI rather than fretting over a particular doctrine. In other words, look at how they reinforced their teachings and way of doing things. Perhaps you'll notice some of the hindrances they've put in place to frustrate clear or critical thinking. "Prove all things" applies to methods and practices too. In the end, maybe regrets can be just one chapter in the book of your life – a chapter that is a lot shorter than the chapters on baby steps and the chapter on what you’re grateful for. So dear TWI follower, what is stopping you from considering the ideas on this thread? here's Penworks' book "Undertow"

"I used to think that the human brain was the most fascinating part of the body. Then I realized, 'Well, look what's telling me that.' "- Emo Phillips. Seriously, though... The good news is that we're not exceptions- everybody does this to some degree, whether a little or a lot, so it's not just us that can be fools at times. Furthermore, we can get better, and we can keep getting better, if we put some work into it. We won't "arrive"- there's no "destination". It's a little like Zeno's Paradox. We can eliminate 1/2 our faulty thinking and bad habits, then we can eliminate 1/2 of what remains, then 1/2 of what remains still, and so on. The effort is worthwhile, IMHO.

I used to think I was a critical thinker. The more I think of it, the more I question that. Learning logical fallacies and recognizing when you've employed them is humbling.

I'd never heard of this before. However, I think it's a good thing, The possibility of learning so many things for free online is, IMHO, one of the most fantastic things about the internet.

Hi Ghosted, I just saw your post and want to respond even if kinda late... (I post here irregularly but read posts more often to keep me balanced in my own PTSD recovery from the way, among other things.) Wow, you have been through a lot, but I am very glad that you have some good support, and are able to put these unimaginable things into words so well. Yes, I too trigger when I hear certain songs, and just reading about your story sent me to the kitchen for some comforting hot tea and a break... The motherly side of me comes out when I hear of these very difficult things that we parents have unintentionally exposed our children to. I send heartfelt thoughts, wishes, prayers (take your pick) for your recovery. My own daughter had attendance problems due to stomach issues in 7th grade (my h and I had left the way in Indiana in '88, but I had "trained my children in the way they should go" very stridently so that they would not have to go thru all of the childhood trauma or hippie years I went thru; when things started to fall apart in those early years, my h and I ended up divorcing; was extremely hard on my daughter and all of us) After being dismissed from public school, my daughter had a really tough time in several not-good schools. She still has some struggles these 7 years later, but has some good counseling (EMDR is helping her alot with PTSD if you want to explore something like that) and is doing much better. Anyway, thank you for sharing your story here, and for offering your perspective on what has happened recently at HQ! The very best to you! (Sending a virtual emoticon with a raised glass to celebrate YOU!)

I can't cite a specific place where he taught this, but he taught that when the Bible talks about adultery, it's talking about spiritual adultery (worshipping other gods) and not about physical intercourse. He went on to imply that if someone still thinks it's about intercourse, it's an indication that person is not spiritually mature enough to understand the deep meanings involved in scripture...whatever the hell that's supposed to mean.

Btw, I don't watch commercial television either, but do watch YouTube, Hulu, Amazon Prime video and PBS online. I just ran into an Associated Press news story about this recently released (in France, and in French) book about an adult woman detailing her experience as a young teen (13-15 years old) having had a sexual relationship with a much older man who happens to be still alive and previously a celebrated literary star in that country. While twi excuses sexual misconduct by its clergy with adult (sometimes married) women, the interpersonal dynamics at work in the power relationships in twi weren't different from what this French author describes... at least according to what I've read in English. Here's one of the book reviews on Amazon translated into English: In 1993, Gabriel Matzneff published a book in which he recounts his adventures with young V., 13 years old when he was 50. V., this is Vanessa Springora, the very one who publishes today The Consent... The very one that, from 1986 to 1987, was Gabriel Matzneff's little victim under the complacent gaze of much of the intellectual world of the time. Bernard Pivot will shamelessly say to Matzneff during one of his shows: “You are still a kitty collector”... Here you go. Everyone knew very well that Matzneff only touched very young virgin girls or young boys aged 11 or 12... Here you go. Everyone knew he was a criminal pedo who went to Manila regularly to satisfy his little boy fantasies... Here you go. Everyone knew it, even the President of the Republic of the day... Even Vanessa Springora's own mother. Here you go. Yeah, but Gabriel Matzneff was an author, so it changed everything. Because Matzneff knew how to manipulate and seduce with words. Because he made young Vanessa believe that there was nothing wrong with the fact that a 50-year-old man had sex with a 13-year-old child. Springora uncomplacently recounts how Matzneff spotted her, seduced, isolated, submissive and ransacked her. That's the predator. Then she tells the story of how she tried to escape this grip. She tells the story of a 13-year-old girl, caught in the clutches of a most fearsome narcissistic pervert. She tells how this predator himself has carefully recounted in books published by major publishers his sexual adventures with minors... without shocking anyone, without justice interfering with them... without anyone worrying about the fate of the young victims... At my humble level, I thank Vanessa Springora for publishing this book. I thank her on behalf of all of us: the abused young girls, the hookers, the “who did not dare to speak”, the “who spoke but who were rebarred”, the “who survived”, the “who did not survive”, the “who drove away”, the “who were annihilated by a narcissistic pervert”, the “who believed” that it was all their fault ”... In short, I thank her from the bottom of my heart.

This video is NOT about the political spectrum, in either direction. The value of this Megyn Kelly moderated discussion is expanding on the dynamics of workplace power that leads to sexual harassment/abuse. I believe it also illuminates points WordWolf made in the quote I cited in this comment. Though Kelly's interview doesn't suggest Ailes drugged anyone to commit rape or obtain sexual favors. But she and the others do dramatically show how power dynamics can play out... and much of that kind of thing DID happen in twi with vpw and lcm. A key difference between what Kelly and her colleagues experienced is that what happened in twi was self-justifying rationalizations twisting bible verses and claiming it was "God's will." It probably took a long time for a woman who submitted to figure out that it wasn't necessarily in harmony with what God really intended for her... I don't think God ever told women to be thankful that they got emotionally manipulated and sexually abused as a matter of course.

Hello. The short of it is that they way didn't "go" bad because vpw set it up "bad" behind the curtain, and just hid it from his audience. From the beginning, vpw knew to tell the public one thing from Scripture, and wait until he was in private to pervert its contents and say the opposite. (Like how God was OK with ORGIES.) lcm was a well-meaning, earnest student in college when he heard of vpw, which led eventually to lcm's life being destroyed. vpw KNEW he was conning us, so he knew who to tell WHAT. lcm thought vpw was really hearing from God, so he was sincere- which is why he got caught. vpw was the one who taught lcm that he was supposed to cheat on his wife- that he had to "loosen up" on the subject of marital fidelity, and that lust was a "need" and that, when he traveled, he needed to find women to "meet his needs" locally, and so on. lcm was carefully groomed to seek out sex outside his marriage, just as vpw carefully identified more vulnerable women and groomed them to be ok with extramarital sex. Nobody put a physical gun to lcm's heads or their heads, but there was YEARS of manipulation by vpw to set it all up. vpw started because HE was fine with cheating on his wife, so he set things up to make it easier to cheat on his wife. He taught lcm to imitate him, so he also taught him to cheat on his wife. So, yes, lcm was an a-hole, but he didn't start out that way. He was also one of vpw's victims, which is why he victimized others. So, yes, lcm and the women were adults, but it wasn't QUITE as simple as a firm "no" to a blunt request or offer of sexual relations. vpw set up locations, and doctrines, to make it all easy- places to contrive comfort and privacy, doctrines to make it OK with God and to put himself above questioning. etc. I'm sure a few women wanted the attention of the star- vpw WANTED more of those women in twi- but the majority were COERCED into things, some of them by being drugged unconscious. If all of this helped you see that it was possible to cheat on a marriage, and for you to decide NEVER to do it, then good for you, that's a good conclusion to draw, and to be commended, IMHO. Please save a little compassion for the women who just wanted a class on the Bible and ended up told that they needed to please God by just going along with this leader and letting him do sexual things to her.

I'm sure there were better ways to spend your time, so I don't disagree. I hope you consider that lives aren't always efficient, and that NOBODY has a life with NO regrets. If you'd lived that way, you'd have been a different person, and perhaps part of what makes you who you are (in a good way) might be missing if you'd lived differently. That doesn't change the reality, but hopefully you'll conclude it was not ALL a waste of time. Me, I've found I learned a lot about compassion after getting hurt and needing compassion. I didn't like learning it that way, but.....

I understand. There are several first hand records on this forum. I suspect there are multiple topics about which adults in twi didn't tell you the whole story... one reason likely was that they didn't get the whole story from "leadership."

IIRC, the Orange Book doesn't have it in print because it wasn't IN the taped PFAL class. I hadn't heard it- which suggests it wasn't in the live class, since I made a fair attempt to memorize it by sitting through it. I read that he HAD said it because I bought TW:LiL and put it on my shelf without reading it. When I read someone criticized him for saying it was the first time I recalled having heard that (after sitting thru pfal a few times.) I was skeptical he HAD said it as such. In pfal, I recall him saying -he'd dedicated his life to God's Word, and saying that -the holy spirit field was what God called him to and that, to me, didn't suggest he was saying he'd heard any audible voice from God Almighty. Lots of us at the local levels sat through pfal, never suspecting he'd claimed he'd heard audibly from God Almighty, and, frankly, the suggestion he'd said it made me uncomfortable as soon as I'd read it. It would have significantly undermined pfal for me if I'd heard it there- so I suspect I didn't simply overlook it several times. A smart con man doesn't put the hook in an obvious place. pfal was the bait, and later came the ridiculous claims. lcm's class failed partly because he mixed his bait- the class- WITH his ridiculous claims. New people saw right away lcm was a nutcase, which killed retention of new people. With everyone expected to take pfal and have the Orange Book, it's not smart con-artistry to put his outrageous claims in either. So, they had Bullinger's work, Stiles' work, and Leonard's work, plus vpw's bad jokes and rambling stories (the homileticist "putting his own personal stamp" on all the plagiarized material, and probably why he partly convinced himself he actually did something with the material. Saying he'd dedicated his life, if sincere, meant he himself made a decision. Saying God called him to something, if sincere, meant he believed God wanted him to work on something long-term. Neither suggests an audible voice from God Almighty. Looking back after knowing he ALSO claimed that- NOW it looks like that's what he was referring to. If you only go by the class, however, you don't get that claim there. That's all as best as I can recall- and that's usually pretty reliable concerning the class' contents.

Philipians 1 (we may have covered this somewhere already but it struck me today, reading) 12 Now I want you to know, brothers and sisters,[b] that what has happened to me has actually served to advance the gospel. 13 As a result, it has become clear throughout the whole palace guard[c] and to everyone else that I am in chains for Christ. And because of my chains, most of the brothers and sisters have become confident in the Lord and dare all the more to proclaim the gospel without fear.15 It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16 The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 1 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice, 19 for I know that through your prayers and God’s provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance.[d] 20 I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. Paul's saying that regardless of the circumstances, if he remains faithful to his beliefs and with their support, his beliefs can be fulfilled. He reached people through his conditions that he would likely not have had he not been there. Rather than complain or be condemned for his conditions, he applied his beliefs to them and - prevailed. This does add layers of texture to the meaning of prevailing too , "more than conqueror". To add: Paul so clearly states that any and all circumstances can be used to serve the "way" he's pursuing, the work, the message of Christ. It's an incredibly powerful section here - even the fact that others use his circumstances as condemnation - I picture people at the Way Nash condemning people who leave their ranks when something goes wrong for them, or their families....."if they'd stood for the Word, if they'd stayed with the ministry that taught them the rightly divided Word (that) wouldn't have happened", but they "gave the adversary opportunity", etc. etc. etc. Paul allowed that even that kind of hatred, "whether from false motives or true", he was happy that Christ is preached. That's a pretty big perspective and not one I tend towards naturally but one that I can learn a great deal from. If the spirit of God lives "in" me then that's the primary turf it will affect. Me - and in many ways I think the understanding that the "pneuma hagion" that is the "Christ in me" is in a relatively ready-state is true. The spirit grows, as "Christ is formed in me". It is a part of "me" now and I'm the driver, with a new instructor with me, that holy spirit that has the character of Christ. Over the years this is how I have come to understand it, this life, of a "new birth". I think it's why the Stoic ideas resonate - that idea of not arguing over what a good man is but rather just "be a good man", puts it all back on me to "do the work" - not to get the spirit but to live this new life and for it to grow and develop "me".

Choose freedom aplenty in 2020.

Interesting thing that occurred to me this evening. It seems spookily Orwellian that (or how) twi changed names of holidays and words to songs. Each instance was clearly intended to mark/enhance the image of twi as better or more correct or more right than anyone else. In that regard, it just elevated the narcissistic nature of wierwille's subculture.

"Bless n treat"

The Hobbit, perhaps? George

When you leave twi or splinter groups.........you find out who your real friends are. Twi and splinters .......... group followship masquerading as Christian fellowship.

Welcome to Grease Spot, Ghosted !!! Thanks for sharing your story. Enjoy your visit here. I was in Family Corps 11 and know firsthand how much bondage and stress all that stuff can put on someone – kids as well as adults. Grease Spot is great for encouraging freedom of thought and developing critical thinking skills.

Hello and welcome. PTSD is not uncommon among twi survivors, especially people who grew up in twi who now have to learn how to live all over again. As you no doubt know, differences of opinion are ENCOURAGED here, not simply allowed. So, you'll find posters on opposite sides of most discussions (at least when it's busy here.) That having been said, it's (obviously?) true that religious beliefs here run the gamut, ranging occasionally between "shut down all churches worldwide and arrest all the clergy" (a slight exaggeration, but it's sounded like that here at times) to "Yes, wierwille the plagiarizing rapist did indeed speak directly for God, since God Almighty appointed him out of all the possible spokespeople for 2000 years, and he where he walked, the earth shook." (That was NOT an exaggeration.) So, if you want to hear why atheism is your only sensible course from here on, we've people who can explain that one to you. And, if you want to hear that God Almighty still Loves and answers prayers in spite of evil people, we've people who can explain that one to you as well. No doubt they'll all introduce themselves shortly. Enjoy your stay here. :)

I had a very pleasant splinter group experience and have very little negative to say about it. (It was Vince Finnegan's group) But as I am no longer a believer, I'll just leave it at that.

It's a reflection of 2 things- the demand and the supply. True twi splinters often appeal only to the old-timers of twi, especially when all they offer is nostalgia and no miracles, no effectual prayer, etc. So, the old-timers may want the second verse to be the same as the first. They want what they know, even if it wasn't working for them before. True twi splinters often offer ONLY nostalgia when it's all they have. If they have no effectual prayer, no miracles, no nothing, and no interested and interesting teachers, all they HAVE is nostalgia. So, that's what they sell. (Mind you, there's ex-twi'ers who see new people and have effectual prayers. Those do NOT rely much on nostalgia, if at all.)

Wayfefe

Appreciate it, DWBH. Love you brother. Keep standing tall.

Great post, Sky! Thanks brother!!

I must say that it IS interesting to see the people who promoted "Momentus" having such difficulties themselves now... ...Maybe it's just a coincidence that the folks who were so heavily into this psyco babble crap are seeing visions of spiders coming out of people's noses?...these same folks are now bitterly divided and even suing each other? Yeah, right...sign me up...who do I get to throw out of the lifeboat?