I cannot give you specific advice because I don't know all the details of the situation and I am not trained in this field. I am sure that there is someone on the greasespot forum who has some related experience and I hope that they will come forward and offer you their help.
However, my own general advice would be, don't blame yourself for the situation and try to stay peaceful within yourself. Do not be anxious to resolve the issue but have patience and be prepared to stand away from the front-line when you are out of your depth.
At that time, let God comfort you and know that he has not abandoned you.
Do not act hastily, be patient and get as much advice as you can before taking action.
It is alright to seek Justice, but it is wrong to seek Vengeance. Justice is for ALL. Even those who are in the wrong need the opportunity to be forgiven and to start on a different path from the one they have followed.
Christ tells us that we must love our enemies. But if people do not want your help, that's their problem.
Don't misunderstand me: the law must still be applied to people, even after you have personally forgiven them and if appropriate they must still answer for their crimes to the state.
Always try to stay calm and respectful towards others and be prepared to walk away from situations where you find yourself feeling aggressive. No point you having to justify your own mistakes if you let things get out of control. You need to stay composed and confident in what you are doing.
Mr G@@r apparently says that he is not responsible for the actions of his licensees. Well, of course, he is right: how can anyone be responsible for another person's actions. However, he is responsible for his OWN actions, and he should consider very carefully what HIS actions are going to be as a result of your complaint. Is the man totally out of touch with reality, that his response seems so offhand! Seems to me that someone is hiding behind semantics. Not a surprise at all. Some people have a great deal of experience in hiding things behind semantics. So it should be no surprise.
There are obviously things that are more important to Mr G@@r than investigating your complaint, one of which, I imagine, is his own bank balance. Of course, that's just my opinion based on years of experience.
If my opinion is wrong, show me why!
Added: Sorry folks, this is getting a bit off topic - will mail you direct, PL.
You can add Pat Powell in Tampa, Fl as a splinter group following Chris Geer.
Just curious...does anyone else know anything about these people/groups??? Pat Powell in Tampa with The Word Centered Felowship, or Jerry Carr in New Jersey with Harbour Lights??? If these are splinter groups, there must be some ex TWI people who know about them or have heard of them. HopeR or IGotOut, what do you know about the Tampa group? Seems someone who also knows about these people could be a help to pinklady.
Uppity - I PT'd you... Pinklady & I are old friends...
This group has been around here for a while. It's made up of mostly ex-TWI people (surprise!) and doesn't have very many new recruits.
I know several people from our old TWI days who are involved with them. They aren't very friendly when I run into them - some are downright standoffish.
Back when LCM fallen from grace because of first lawsuit, I ran into one of of these folks at the mall. I was glad to see him. He was a bit cold, but that was his personality - so I blew it off. Then I shared about what had happened in TWI with LCM - told him to check out Waydale and a few other Ex-Way sites - that it was really eye-opening, etc. His reply was something like "I don't waste my time on that stuff... it isn't profitable." Ugh. I told him it was nice to see him - kept going and didn't look back.
That's the general "line" you'll get from most of them. They don't want to talk about anything that isn't "profitable" - which is everything they know nothing about! :blink:
Ya know, Hope, it never occurred to me that they (offshoots and TWI) have a totally different definition of "profitable" than the rest of us do. Theirs is always (all without exception) about money - ours isn't.
Amazing what one begins to see when the kool-aid starts to leave the body...
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't paying yourself an income in contradiction of the Articles of Association of the Company?
Not at all. The individual paid is an employee of the company. Just look at any small businessman who trades as PlumberInYourTown Ltd, the boss is the no.1 shareholder with 99 shares, his wife owns 1 share and he is the sole employee. Just limiting the individual's personal liability in case anything goes wrong.
Back when LCM fallen from grace because of first lawsuit, I ran into one of of these folks at the mall. I was glad to see him. He was a bit cold, but that was his personality - so I blew it off. Then I shared about what had happened in TWI with LCM - told him to check out Waydale and a few other Ex-Way sites - that it was really eye-opening, etc. His reply was something like "I don't waste my time on that stuff... it isn't profitable." Ugh. I told him it was nice to see him - kept going and didn't look back.
That's the general "line" you'll get from most of them. They don't want to talk about anything that isn't "profitable" - which is everything they know nothing about! :blink:
I, too, have gotten this response...."it isn't profitable"....on a couple of situations.
To me, I took it to mean....."it isn't in our favor (offshoots' agenda) to discuss those things." Like so many things.....if they cannot CONTROL the conversation, they want no part of it. Any indepth discussion of Geer's slickery is to be avoided in the bluntest of responses.
Under the bright lights of logic and scrutiny......Geer's track record and actions doesn't hold the mogship mantle either. Maybe a franchise mog-con, but not a spirit-filled man of god.
I think the G**r group is still elevating Dr's position of "Our Father in the Word" to the extent that they do not want to hear of any blight on his reputation, resulting in "negative confession and thinking", and think such information is beyond the "pay grade" of the average joe believer's responsibility.
Remember how often G**r in the POP mentioned that his intention was to handle the problems of twi strictly with the BOT first, then information leaked at HQ, so they had to be brought in, then the Clergy, then the Corps, then the believer, in that order because each group did not "return to the Word".
He also repeatedly mentions he didn't want anyone but the trustees to know.
I think the veil is still up and in operation with the G**r group, certain things have never been identified nor addressed, and that is why many of their fellowship are stale and stagnant to this day, they are in the house but with all the windows closed and the drapes drawn, someone needs to open a window and let some light in. They have never moved beyond the day of the reading of POP, and have not cleaned the house thoroughly enough.
Discussion of the former transgressions of twi and BOT is discouraged, and so most do not even know of the widespread adultery or of Dr's lifestyle and G**r's involvement in such practices. If you approached them on such subject matter, they probably would accuse you of harshing their believing buzz, to say the least.
I think the G**r group is still elevating Dr's position of "Our Father in the Word" to the extent that they do not want to hear of any blight on his reputation, resulting in "negative confession and thinking", and think such information is beyond the "pay grade" of the average joe believer's responsibility.
Remember how often G**r in the POP mentioned that his intention was to handle the problems of twi strictly with the BOT first, then information leaked at HQ, so they had to be brought in, then the Clergy, then the Corps, then the believer, in that order because each group did not "return to the Word".
He also repeatedly mentions he didn't want anyone but the trustees to know.
I think the veil is still up and in operation with the G**r group, certain things have never been identified nor addressed, and that is why many of their fellowship are stale and stagnant to this day, they are in the house but with all the windows closed and the drapes drawn, someone needs to open a window and let some light in. They have never moved beyond the day of the reading of POP, and have not cleaned the house thoroughly enough.
Discussion of the former transgressions of twi and BOT is discouraged, and so most do not even know of the widespread adultery or of Dr's lifestyle and G**r's involvement in such practices. If you approached them on such subject matter, they probably would accuse you of harshing their believing buzz, to say the least.
quote: I think the veil is still up and in operation with the G**r group, certain things have never been identified nor addressed, and that is why many of their fellowship are stale and stagnant to this day, they are in the house but with all the windows closed and the drapes drawn, someone needs to open a window and let some light in. They have never moved beyond the day of the reading of POP, and have not cleaned the house thoroughly enough.
Discussion of the former transgressions of twi and BOT is discouraged, and so most do not even know of the widespread adultery or of Dr's lifestyle and G**r's involvement in such practices. If you approached them on such subject matter, they probably would accuse you of harshing their believing buzz, to say the least.
You don't have a clue what you're talking about. I go to a CG fellowship. There's plenty of agape there. But who needs the love of God when you can talk about VPs dick. Oh. What's the matter? Am I harshing your VP bashing buzz?
seriously, johniam, is the "veil" down in cg fellowships? do they/you talk about the transgressions? are they/you VP worshippers? why do you suppose so many people here have had negative experiences with people involved with a cg fellowship? i'd really like to hear from you on this. my only experience was with cg himself via the mail in 1987, and it wasn't positive. so i'd like to hear about your experience with a cg group.
I'm real glad to hear that there's some love in your fellowship. We need a lot of love, my friend.
Maybe we should also be sure that our love permeates beyond our meetings and into our lives in general, even when we're posting on Greasespot. Wish I could really get the hang of it.
Anyway, I seem to remember reading somewhere that love is supposed to be "without dissimulation"?
So it's not surprising that people are concerned about this. Because some people have proved themselves to be hypocrites, because they preach one thing but practice another.
And that can't be healthy, can it?
Not accusing you, my friend, not at all. But if people are gong to be hypocrites, you don't want to keep that a secret, do you? So why the need for sooooooo many secrets. I seem to remember JC calling a few people hypocrites. Wonder why he didn't brush it under the carpet. Hmmmmm, makes you think, doesn't it?
You don't have a clue what you're talking about. I go to a CG fellowship. There's plenty of agape there.
Well........
Some of us here remember the postings (two or three years ago?) from the european corps girl who spent her inresidence years at Gartmore under Geer's "leadership." The verbal abuse and degradation that she described was frekking unreal.
But yeah..........you go to a CG fellowship...........and Geer stays away, hiding in the shadows, collecting his franchise money. A sick system of lording over people (and exploiting them) if you ask me.
johniam, just to clarify my comments about the G**r group was in the context and in respect to information dealing with the bad stuff at twi, ie., Dr's transgressions, the BOT's problems, the adultery and abuses etc. All my comments were appointed to that topic. From what I've seen, it's accross the board, the old way of thinking that the ministry be not blamed runs from the top (G**r) down, no public discourse of the details of VPW and TWI's demise is likely tolerated and is not encouraged.
Since you mentioned it, I think there are some great G**r fellowships, and some really bad ones. It all depends on the felllowship coordinator. There are some real neaderthol FC's and LC's that have their feet cememted in the old ways of doing things and haven't quite "got it" enough to rid themselves of the old ways.
JOhniam, I went to a Geer group for 12 years and I have had more than 3 correspondeces with him, so I think i can qualify as a expert on this topic. Geer does not care about people, families or who gets hurt by whom, he only cares about his bank account!! He never counsels or pastors anyone. What does he do to deserve that money? He promises the golden advanced class for 15 years dah, why are people so blind?? I can tell you from experience there is no true love of God. Some have innocent hearts but the leaders decieve the hearts of the simple, for what? To feed their own belly. That's what Gods word says.
God's word is not a business and people are to be loved not used!! I lost 2 of my kids and a husband who beat me for not submitting to Geer. Where's the love in that?
People here have true stories from the heart to tell and there is nothing negative about that. I am not the only victim of family marking and avoiding, thinking they are doing the word. The heart of the word is the family. they separate and divide them. Wake up for you sake and those you love. With respect P.L.
PinkLady, I agree with you that G**r really doesn't get involved with anyone except his lisenced class coordinators, his research people, and a select group of upper eschalon ex-twi associates.
From what I know, he is not available for counseling at large, doesn't do guest appearances, but does do a lot of research.
He has his own home fellowship, of which I actually know of someone who goes there, and there are no complaints from that person.
I personally don't attend a G**r fellowship, and haven't for years.
.....quite the picture of a Christian minister in that job description, but now I see....he sounds like some medieval monk more than one of the servants of Christ.....you all CG freaks can have your classes, and your seminars and your this and your that...I'll take freedom in Christ ANY OLD DAY......
Alfa....sorry to cut across your doctrine...just telling what I saw and know, and to reiterate, I'm not attending G**r fellowships, there are many flaws out in G**rland. No question about that.
quote: seriously, johniam, is the "veil" down in cg fellowships? do they/you talk about the transgressions? are they/you VP worshippers? why do you suppose so many people here have had negative experiences with people involved with a cg fellowship? i'd really like to hear from you on this. my only experience was with cg himself via the mail in 1987, and it wasn't positive. so i'd like to hear about your experience with a cg group.
Sprawled, I didn't used to believe there was any truth to the accusations of adultery I'd heard simply because all the women who came forward didn't do so until after VP fell asleep. The accusations all seemed a little too convenient. I went to a John Hendricks fellowship for awhile and JH, who was in the 4th corps (trained at HQ), said it was true but that he felt this did not invalidate the word VP taught.
Couple years ago I had a falling out with leadership in the JH group. At first I was going to have my family join a church, but a CG guy I've known for 25 years happened to call me about something unrelated to the word and one thing led to another and now my family goes to the CG fellowship. It was awkward at first because I heard nothing but bad things about CG from LCM, from JH, and from GSC. But so far it's been great.
To answer your questions, the leaders of the fellowshiip don't discuss the transgressions during fellowships, but they know about them (don't deny them) and acknowledge them. This struck me as weird because there was a poster who went ballistic a year or so ago over the things said about VP who once went to the same fellowship I currently go to. I don't think he can post anymore. But the people I fellowship with feel as I do and as JH did, that whatever VP did doesn't invalidate the word he taught.
As to whether we are "VP worshippers", Many here on GSC would say yes, but I don't see it that way. People who worshipped pagan gods in the OT did so expecting them to give the increase. Baal was a weather god and the baal worshippers did their song and dance to get it to rain, remember? Dagon was a fish god the Philistines worshipped. Their chief cities were Mediterranian ports so they expected Dagon to cause them to catch a lot of fish.
I never expected VP to give the increase in my life. Or any of the rock bands I've been accused of worshipping. God's the one who does that. If you think the fact that I still respect VPs teaching constitutes worship, then so be it. I just don't see it that way.
Just like with VP, I can't say that just because my own experience with VP/CG has been good that others did not have bad experiences. Pinklady's story sounds very, uh, combustible. I don't speak for those people and they don't speak for me. My CG fellowship experience has been good.
quote: Not accusing you, my friend, not at all. But if people are gong to be hypocrites, you don't want to keep that a secret, do you? So why the need for sooooooo many secrets. I seem to remember JC calling a few people hypocrites. Wonder why he didn't brush it under the carpet. Hmmmmm, makes you think, doesn't it?
Hypocrisy is no secret. Everybody is capable of it (Romans 7:15-25). Did JC expose EVERY act of hypocrisy? My experience with a CG fellowship has been good.
quote: Since you mentioned it, I think there are some great G**r fellowships, and some really bad ones. It all depends on the felllowship coordinator.
I agree. That's kind of what I meant when I said CG wasn't trying to be the MOG. I never see him. Never met him. He does not lord over me. I'm told that only 15% of abs goes to him as opposed to the 85% that went to HQ in TWI. Every time we have a class, or a big fellowship abs money pays for the food, room rental, whatever. Isn't that how it should be?
John, take a look at the threads involving Jim Doop, Steve Heefner and the Jesus movement, those accounts give an entirely different picture of VPW and twi than most are aware of.
Also, read the threads regarding BG Leonard's classes and how similar they are to what VP's later foundational class, clear down to the charts. Might shed more light on what needs to be unveiled.
Also, I'm not so sure most G**r fellowships know about G**r mixing the drinks w/the rape drugs that were given to the girls that he solicited for the boss. It seems as though many of them who spoke up were run off quickly.
I agree. That's kind of what I meant when I said CG wasn't trying to be the MOG. I never see him. Never met him. He does not lord over me. I'm told that only 15% of abs goes to him as opposed to the 85% that went to HQ in TWI. Every time we have a class, or a big fellowship abs money pays for the food, room rental, whatever. Isn't that how it should be?
15% of ABS goes to Geer...?? :blink:
Relatively, no overhead expenses. Any staff salaries?? equipment? machinery? fleet cars?
No traveling expenses, no counseling fees, no pastoral work............no programs, no outreach.
Just sitting in an office re-re-researching scriptures and COLLECTING 15% abs and thousands from those franchise contracts. Sorry, it just strikes me as exploiting the simple and weak.
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sprawled out
gee, now i understand, tom. i didn't realize you were nobly defending a couple of nice guys. i thought you were just being an a**hole. thanks for clearing that up.
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Pete
Pinklady
I cannot give you specific advice because I don't know all the details of the situation and I am not trained in this field. I am sure that there is someone on the greasespot forum who has some related experience and I hope that they will come forward and offer you their help.
However, my own general advice would be, don't blame yourself for the situation and try to stay peaceful within yourself. Do not be anxious to resolve the issue but have patience and be prepared to stand away from the front-line when you are out of your depth.
At that time, let God comfort you and know that he has not abandoned you.
Do not act hastily, be patient and get as much advice as you can before taking action.
It is alright to seek Justice, but it is wrong to seek Vengeance. Justice is for ALL. Even those who are in the wrong need the opportunity to be forgiven and to start on a different path from the one they have followed.
Christ tells us that we must love our enemies. But if people do not want your help, that's their problem.
Don't misunderstand me: the law must still be applied to people, even after you have personally forgiven them and if appropriate they must still answer for their crimes to the state.
Always try to stay calm and respectful towards others and be prepared to walk away from situations where you find yourself feeling aggressive. No point you having to justify your own mistakes if you let things get out of control. You need to stay composed and confident in what you are doing.
Mr G@@r apparently says that he is not responsible for the actions of his licensees. Well, of course, he is right: how can anyone be responsible for another person's actions. However, he is responsible for his OWN actions, and he should consider very carefully what HIS actions are going to be as a result of your complaint. Is the man totally out of touch with reality, that his response seems so offhand! Seems to me that someone is hiding behind semantics. Not a surprise at all. Some people have a great deal of experience in hiding things behind semantics. So it should be no surprise.
There are obviously things that are more important to Mr G@@r than investigating your complaint, one of which, I imagine, is his own bank balance. Of course, that's just my opinion based on years of experience.
If my opinion is wrong, show me why!
Added: Sorry folks, this is getting a bit off topic - will mail you direct, PL.
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Lifted Up
Just curious...does anyone else know anything about these people/groups??? Pat Powell in Tampa with The Word Centered Felowship, or Jerry Carr in New Jersey with Harbour Lights??? If these are splinter groups, there must be some ex TWI people who know about them or have heard of them. HopeR or IGotOut, what do you know about the Tampa group? Seems someone who also knows about these people could be a help to pinklady.
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Hope R.
Uppity - I PT'd you... Pinklady & I are old friends...
This group has been around here for a while. It's made up of mostly ex-TWI people (surprise!) and doesn't have very many new recruits.
I know several people from our old TWI days who are involved with them. They aren't very friendly when I run into them - some are downright standoffish.
Back when LCM fallen from grace because of first lawsuit, I ran into one of of these folks at the mall. I was glad to see him. He was a bit cold, but that was his personality - so I blew it off. Then I shared about what had happened in TWI with LCM - told him to check out Waydale and a few other Ex-Way sites - that it was really eye-opening, etc. His reply was something like "I don't waste my time on that stuff... it isn't profitable." Ugh. I told him it was nice to see him - kept going and didn't look back.
That's the general "line" you'll get from most of them. They don't want to talk about anything that isn't "profitable" - which is everything they know nothing about! :blink:
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Belle
Ya know, Hope, it never occurred to me that they (offshoots and TWI) have a totally different definition of "profitable" than the rest of us do. Theirs is always (all without exception) about money - ours isn't.
Amazing what one begins to see when the kool-aid starts to leave the body...
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Twinky
Pete:
Not at all. The individual paid is an employee of the company. Just look at any small businessman who trades as PlumberInYourTown Ltd, the boss is the no.1 shareholder with 99 shares, his wife owns 1 share and he is the sole employee. Just limiting the individual's personal liability in case anything goes wrong.
Sending you a PM.
Twinky
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skyrider
I, too, have gotten this response...."it isn't profitable"....on a couple of situations.
To me, I took it to mean....."it isn't in our favor (offshoots' agenda) to discuss those things." Like so many things.....if they cannot CONTROL the conversation, they want no part of it. Any indepth discussion of Geer's slickery is to be avoided in the bluntest of responses.
Under the bright lights of logic and scrutiny......Geer's track record and actions doesn't hold the mogship mantle either. Maybe a franchise mog-con, but not a spirit-filled man of god.
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now I see
I think the G**r group is still elevating Dr's position of "Our Father in the Word" to the extent that they do not want to hear of any blight on his reputation, resulting in "negative confession and thinking", and think such information is beyond the "pay grade" of the average joe believer's responsibility.
Remember how often G**r in the POP mentioned that his intention was to handle the problems of twi strictly with the BOT first, then information leaked at HQ, so they had to be brought in, then the Clergy, then the Corps, then the believer, in that order because each group did not "return to the Word".
He also repeatedly mentions he didn't want anyone but the trustees to know.
I think the veil is still up and in operation with the G**r group, certain things have never been identified nor addressed, and that is why many of their fellowship are stale and stagnant to this day, they are in the house but with all the windows closed and the drapes drawn, someone needs to open a window and let some light in. They have never moved beyond the day of the reading of POP, and have not cleaned the house thoroughly enough.
Discussion of the former transgressions of twi and BOT is discouraged, and so most do not even know of the widespread adultery or of Dr's lifestyle and G**r's involvement in such practices. If you approached them on such subject matter, they probably would accuse you of harshing their believing buzz, to say the least.
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WordWolf
Nicely put.
I can't see any way to phrase this any better. :)
BTW, welcome to the GSC. :)
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now I see
Thanks for the welcome WordWolf, interesting web site ya'll got here. :P
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dmiller
Bnis -- Welcome to our corner of cyber-space.
We (all) do our *best* to keep it interesting. ;)
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johniam
quote: I think the veil is still up and in operation with the G**r group, certain things have never been identified nor addressed, and that is why many of their fellowship are stale and stagnant to this day, they are in the house but with all the windows closed and the drapes drawn, someone needs to open a window and let some light in. They have never moved beyond the day of the reading of POP, and have not cleaned the house thoroughly enough.
Discussion of the former transgressions of twi and BOT is discouraged, and so most do not even know of the widespread adultery or of Dr's lifestyle and G**r's involvement in such practices. If you approached them on such subject matter, they probably would accuse you of harshing their believing buzz, to say the least.
You don't have a clue what you're talking about. I go to a CG fellowship. There's plenty of agape there. But who needs the love of God when you can talk about VPs dick. Oh. What's the matter? Am I harshing your VP bashing buzz?
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sprawled out
hehe--you said "dick!" :lol:
seriously, johniam, is the "veil" down in cg fellowships? do they/you talk about the transgressions? are they/you VP worshippers? why do you suppose so many people here have had negative experiences with people involved with a cg fellowship? i'd really like to hear from you on this. my only experience was with cg himself via the mail in 1987, and it wasn't positive. so i'd like to hear about your experience with a cg group.
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Pete
Hi there JohnIam
I'm real glad to hear that there's some love in your fellowship. We need a lot of love, my friend.
Maybe we should also be sure that our love permeates beyond our meetings and into our lives in general, even when we're posting on Greasespot. Wish I could really get the hang of it.
Anyway, I seem to remember reading somewhere that love is supposed to be "without dissimulation"?
So it's not surprising that people are concerned about this. Because some people have proved themselves to be hypocrites, because they preach one thing but practice another.
And that can't be healthy, can it?
Not accusing you, my friend, not at all. But if people are gong to be hypocrites, you don't want to keep that a secret, do you? So why the need for sooooooo many secrets. I seem to remember JC calling a few people hypocrites. Wonder why he didn't brush it under the carpet. Hmmmmm, makes you think, doesn't it?
Well, it makes me think, anyway.
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skyrider
Well........
Some of us here remember the postings (two or three years ago?) from the european corps girl who spent her inresidence years at Gartmore under Geer's "leadership." The verbal abuse and degradation that she described was frekking unreal.
But yeah..........you go to a CG fellowship...........and Geer stays away, hiding in the shadows, collecting his franchise money. A sick system of lording over people (and exploiting them) if you ask me.
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now I see
johniam, just to clarify my comments about the G**r group was in the context and in respect to information dealing with the bad stuff at twi, ie., Dr's transgressions, the BOT's problems, the adultery and abuses etc. All my comments were appointed to that topic. From what I've seen, it's accross the board, the old way of thinking that the ministry be not blamed runs from the top (G**r) down, no public discourse of the details of VPW and TWI's demise is likely tolerated and is not encouraged.
Since you mentioned it, I think there are some great G**r fellowships, and some really bad ones. It all depends on the felllowship coordinator. There are some real neaderthol FC's and LC's that have their feet cememted in the old ways of doing things and haven't quite "got it" enough to rid themselves of the old ways.
Just my opinion.....
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pinklady
JOhniam, I went to a Geer group for 12 years and I have had more than 3 correspondeces with him, so I think i can qualify as a expert on this topic. Geer does not care about people, families or who gets hurt by whom, he only cares about his bank account!! He never counsels or pastors anyone. What does he do to deserve that money? He promises the golden advanced class for 15 years dah, why are people so blind?? I can tell you from experience there is no true love of God. Some have innocent hearts but the leaders decieve the hearts of the simple, for what? To feed their own belly. That's what Gods word says.
God's word is not a business and people are to be loved not used!! I lost 2 of my kids and a husband who beat me for not submitting to Geer. Where's the love in that?
People here have true stories from the heart to tell and there is nothing negative about that. I am not the only victim of family marking and avoiding, thinking they are doing the word. The heart of the word is the family. they separate and divide them. Wake up for you sake and those you love. With respect P.L.
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now I see
PinkLady, I agree with you that G**r really doesn't get involved with anyone except his lisenced class coordinators, his research people, and a select group of upper eschalon ex-twi associates.
From what I know, he is not available for counseling at large, doesn't do guest appearances, but does do a lot of research.
He has his own home fellowship, of which I actually know of someone who goes there, and there are no complaints from that person.
I personally don't attend a G**r fellowship, and haven't for years.
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alfakat
.....quite the picture of a Christian minister in that job description, but now I see....he sounds like some medieval monk more than one of the servants of Christ.....you all CG freaks can have your classes, and your seminars and your this and your that...I'll take freedom in Christ ANY OLD DAY......
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now I see
Alfa....sorry to cut across your doctrine...just telling what I saw and know, and to reiterate, I'm not attending G**r fellowships, there are many flaws out in G**rland. No question about that.
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johniam
quote: seriously, johniam, is the "veil" down in cg fellowships? do they/you talk about the transgressions? are they/you VP worshippers? why do you suppose so many people here have had negative experiences with people involved with a cg fellowship? i'd really like to hear from you on this. my only experience was with cg himself via the mail in 1987, and it wasn't positive. so i'd like to hear about your experience with a cg group.
Sprawled, I didn't used to believe there was any truth to the accusations of adultery I'd heard simply because all the women who came forward didn't do so until after VP fell asleep. The accusations all seemed a little too convenient. I went to a John Hendricks fellowship for awhile and JH, who was in the 4th corps (trained at HQ), said it was true but that he felt this did not invalidate the word VP taught.
Couple years ago I had a falling out with leadership in the JH group. At first I was going to have my family join a church, but a CG guy I've known for 25 years happened to call me about something unrelated to the word and one thing led to another and now my family goes to the CG fellowship. It was awkward at first because I heard nothing but bad things about CG from LCM, from JH, and from GSC. But so far it's been great.
To answer your questions, the leaders of the fellowshiip don't discuss the transgressions during fellowships, but they know about them (don't deny them) and acknowledge them. This struck me as weird because there was a poster who went ballistic a year or so ago over the things said about VP who once went to the same fellowship I currently go to. I don't think he can post anymore. But the people I fellowship with feel as I do and as JH did, that whatever VP did doesn't invalidate the word he taught.
As to whether we are "VP worshippers", Many here on GSC would say yes, but I don't see it that way. People who worshipped pagan gods in the OT did so expecting them to give the increase. Baal was a weather god and the baal worshippers did their song and dance to get it to rain, remember? Dagon was a fish god the Philistines worshipped. Their chief cities were Mediterranian ports so they expected Dagon to cause them to catch a lot of fish.
I never expected VP to give the increase in my life. Or any of the rock bands I've been accused of worshipping. God's the one who does that. If you think the fact that I still respect VPs teaching constitutes worship, then so be it. I just don't see it that way.
Just like with VP, I can't say that just because my own experience with VP/CG has been good that others did not have bad experiences. Pinklady's story sounds very, uh, combustible. I don't speak for those people and they don't speak for me. My CG fellowship experience has been good.
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johniam
quote: Not accusing you, my friend, not at all. But if people are gong to be hypocrites, you don't want to keep that a secret, do you? So why the need for sooooooo many secrets. I seem to remember JC calling a few people hypocrites. Wonder why he didn't brush it under the carpet. Hmmmmm, makes you think, doesn't it?
Hypocrisy is no secret. Everybody is capable of it (Romans 7:15-25). Did JC expose EVERY act of hypocrisy? My experience with a CG fellowship has been good.
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johniam
quote: Since you mentioned it, I think there are some great G**r fellowships, and some really bad ones. It all depends on the felllowship coordinator.
I agree. That's kind of what I meant when I said CG wasn't trying to be the MOG. I never see him. Never met him. He does not lord over me. I'm told that only 15% of abs goes to him as opposed to the 85% that went to HQ in TWI. Every time we have a class, or a big fellowship abs money pays for the food, room rental, whatever. Isn't that how it should be?
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now I see
John, take a look at the threads involving Jim Doop, Steve Heefner and the Jesus movement, those accounts give an entirely different picture of VPW and twi than most are aware of.
Also, read the threads regarding BG Leonard's classes and how similar they are to what VP's later foundational class, clear down to the charts. Might shed more light on what needs to be unveiled.
Also, I'm not so sure most G**r fellowships know about G**r mixing the drinks w/the rape drugs that were given to the girls that he solicited for the boss. It seems as though many of them who spoke up were run off quickly.
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skyrider
15% of ABS goes to Geer...?? :blink:
Relatively, no overhead expenses. Any staff salaries?? equipment? machinery? fleet cars?
No traveling expenses, no counseling fees, no pastoral work............no programs, no outreach.
Just sitting in an office re-re-researching scriptures and COLLECTING 15% abs and thousands from those franchise contracts. Sorry, it just strikes me as exploiting the simple and weak.
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