BillyD, thank for your response, but honestly, the non-profit label means absolutely nothing to me and is actually laughable, imo. The groups who claim to not be making any money because of their non-profit status seem to be the ones abusing the privileges the most.
Maybe the actual workers aren't getting rich, but I'd wager my whole paycheck that someone is. TWI has used those same arguments that you posted, and, while the actual worker bees live in dorms, make less than minimum wage after figuring in how much work they did and they do all that work without benefits. Meanwhile, down on the ranch, the leaders have personal assistants who do everything from ironing their sheets, chauffeuring their kids, cooking dinners and giving them obscene amounts of 'petty cash' to spend on themselves.
Usually, in my experience, the ones who are really helping people don't ask for money. Hence, the examples in my previous post. Even Paw shells out money every month to keep the cafe open and has never asked for a penny from anyone. He didn't even have a way for people to donate money till people bugged him about it. THOSE are the kind of folks I tend to trust, respect and believe really want to help folks.
Sorry, I just don't buy that money isn't being abused by those who are claiming to 'work for God' at STFI. <_<
About the 'sales' stuff - yeah, I do think 'sales' is an appropriate term & more honest way of saying things. Maybe Jeff took care of the 'bookstore' and I'm sure he's a nice guy. I only know him from his posts here and they really only seem to be advertisements for CES.
I will not go into great detail here but KAG has been more or less the type of person described in the letter from JAL's second wife since she was in the in-rez kork. We'uns in the 6ckpphhtt kork had to listen to a loony-tunes tape of her experiences of an "Exorcist, Legion-style" spirit possessed individual on her interim year and the chief spirit named(drum roll, please, give it up for....) SWATRATTRA!! She was a case, she is a case; nuff said, I believe.......
There is a paper going around from the Graeser's and Resner's as to why Mark should not step down as President before the Board of Director's meeting / their position paper.
I don't have a copy of it but I know it starts off with:
We (the majority) of the Ordained community of Spirit & Truth.....
Just so anyone knows that might get this e-mail / letter, the "majority" spoken of there is:
Mark Graeser
Karen Graeser
Tom Resner
Susan Resner (a VERY close friend of Karen Ann)
Nancy Berwid (another VERY close friend of Karen Ann)
That makes 5 of the ordained community.
The other folks are:
John Schoenheit
Dan Gallagher
Gary Theisen
Karen Theisen
So it's the same basic Board of Directors split of 4 / 2. They (Mark Graeser and Tom Resner) just add in their wifes and dear friend Nancy so they can say the "majority of the ordained community of Spirit & Truth."
Well, you can't say politics without saying "tic". (socks 24:2, Open Standard Version, Revised) It's got 'em by the bag full.
If GS had a Prophetic Coucnil, I'd say it has spoken. Let it be written, verified, ratified and Stamped Approved this day of December 17, in the Year of Our Spouse, by All They Who Thus Speak and They Who Nod, by Proxy: CES is in a mess.
This whole thing is almost laughable. It's like watching a weird movie about weirdoes thinking they're gonna take over the world by convincing everyone that they have powers to contact the ALL MIGHTY... who happens to live on Pluto and grows hemp for a living...
where does it end???
these people sure do like to complicate their lives... holy schmoly..
my advice to them: go see a good concert, have a few brews and enjoy the tunes!!
Yes. Swatratra. "We" (including me n alfa n others) called BS on that back then. I guess as a show of utter disrespect of just plain nuttiness, we named our little corps twig "Swatratra".
Well, you can't say politics without saying "tic". (socks 24:2, Open Standard Version, Revised) It's got 'em by the bag full.
If GS had a Prophetic Coucnil, I'd say it has spoken. Let it be written, verified, ratified and Stamped Approved this day of December 17, in the Year of Our Spouse, by All They Who Thus Speak and They Who Nod, by Proxy: CES is in a mess.
The Scripture according to Socks ----
(Cough!!!) My fiddle calls, and my guitar gently weeps.
Re:"This whole thing is almost laughable. It's like watching a weird movie about weirdoes thinking they're gonna take over the world by convincing everyone that they have powers to contact the ALL MIGHTY... "
Yeah, but the suckers from one cult (TWI) are ripe pickings for an offshoot, huh? And the Shiites and Sunni's are murdering each other over in Iraq over which is the true religion. CES is running on personal dreams and revelations? Well.. how does *THAT* make them *any* different from any other religion?
Jeff, you mentioned you were part of this prophecy circle at one time. I'm curious as to how this practice got its start. It sounds like, from people who knew KAG back in the Corps days, that she was into "spiritual" stuff back then. We all were to some extent, I suppose, but some of us were a little more enamored of it than others.
Was "personal prophesy" something that started with K getting into being a prophet, and then others got on board with it?
How does this jive with what was taught in TWI, that God would speak first with the individual?
This thing just reminds me so much of the Salem witch hunts, people pointing fingers at one another in the name of God, with no defense possible.
Evan. You named your twig "Swattrattra"? I just read that post to my 7th Corps wife (she knew what a drama queen KAG was), and Mrs Lingo burst out laughing. She said that that kind of humor in the Corps is reminiscent of the day when Anthony Patch prayed up in the Ambassador Room for "poor little Clarita who at this moment is being bitten by devils......." Such irreverence! :)
Dot, she was in the 7th Corps. All I remember about her (didn't know her all that well) was that she talked nonstop. When she got engaged, some of my friends and I figured that maybe her incessant talking was caused by horniness and that when she got married, it would stop. Sounds like we were wrong.
I'd be curious where they got the personal prrophecy bit, too. I'd only seen this doctrine once before, long ago, when I heard CES was into it.
When I was hanging out with some hippie Christians in California in the late 60s, they were really into this stuff, and we were urged to write down the "prophecies" so we could refer to them again. The way it "worked" (it didn't really work!) was we'd sit in a circle and Susie would say, "Joe, would you prophecy for me?" Then Joe would "bring forth" words meant specifically for Susie. Usually the "messages" would be like, "Susie, I've called you to be my handmaiden for all time. Follow my path and reach out to others, and I will bless your way." Then the specific guidance crap crept in.
People (whether intentionally or subconsciously) started to speak things that were coming from their own noggins (they probably did all along, really).
I don't believe we have the right to demand prophetic messages from God. Nor do I see any scriptural basis for that. Do these people think God Almighty, the Creator, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, is their lap dog, who jumps to do their bidding? I don't see life/God working that way, and like I said before, it can be hurtful and even dangerous.
There is a paper going around from the Graeser's and Resner's as to why Mark should not step down as President before the Board of Director's meeting / their position paper.
I don't have a copy of it but I know it starts off with:
We (the majority) of the Ordained community of Spirit & Truth.....
Just so anyone knows that might get this e-mail / letter, the "majority" spoken of there is:
Mark Graeser
Karen Graeser
Tom Resner
Susan Resner (a VERY close friend of Karen Ann)
Nancy Berwid (another VERY close friend of Karen Ann)
That makes 5 of the ordained community.
The other folks are:
John Schoenheit
Dan Gallagher
Gary Theisen
Karen Theisen
So it's the same basic Board of Directors split of 4 / 2. They (Mark Graeser and Tom Resner) just add in their wifes and dear friend Nancy so they can say the "majority of the ordained community of Spirit & Truth."
Bless ya!
Jeff
IMHO, the whole damn lot of them ought to "step down" and let such folks here such as Jeff, Billy D, and Captain Crunch take the helm.
Evan... I still don't get the Swartratra bit? Is that a reference to something? Or is it just a strangeoid name to go with the strangeoid person who made it up?
I knew KA's brother. He was in the 8th Corps... a real arsenehole.
He's still in and says he sees the problems in TWI but can't leave since he employs so many TWIers for his business. (more like slave labour).
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notinKansasanymore
Well, then let's PRAY for them. If they're having troubles, and if their original intention was to serve God and help His people (and we can all recall that this is not a goal without natural obsta
Sushi
I'm not exactly sure of the quote, but someone once said, "All organizations have the seeds of death planted in them at their beginning", or something to that effect. You can be sure, whatever organiz
Whatsgoingon
I am very discouraged with my present involvement with STFI. If Mark G causes more issues with SFTI after he is removed from office next week we will probably cease our involvement with that organizat
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Belle
BillyD, thank for your response, but honestly, the non-profit label means absolutely nothing to me and is actually laughable, imo. The groups who claim to not be making any money because of their non-profit status seem to be the ones abusing the privileges the most.
Maybe the actual workers aren't getting rich, but I'd wager my whole paycheck that someone is. TWI has used those same arguments that you posted, and, while the actual worker bees live in dorms, make less than minimum wage after figuring in how much work they did and they do all that work without benefits. Meanwhile, down on the ranch, the leaders have personal assistants who do everything from ironing their sheets, chauffeuring their kids, cooking dinners and giving them obscene amounts of 'petty cash' to spend on themselves.
Usually, in my experience, the ones who are really helping people don't ask for money. Hence, the examples in my previous post. Even Paw shells out money every month to keep the cafe open and has never asked for a penny from anyone. He didn't even have a way for people to donate money till people bugged him about it. THOSE are the kind of folks I tend to trust, respect and believe really want to help folks.
Sorry, I just don't buy that money isn't being abused by those who are claiming to 'work for God' at STFI. <_<
About the 'sales' stuff - yeah, I do think 'sales' is an appropriate term & more honest way of saying things. Maybe Jeff took care of the 'bookstore' and I'm sure he's a nice guy. I only know him from his posts here and they really only seem to be advertisements for CES.
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dmiller
Well --- for the record, I'll reiterate what I've said before about CES/STF.
I'm a partner with them, as I send a small monthly donation to them.
It's always been my choice to do so as I wish -- with no coercion from the *office*.
I have never been to a CES fellowship, with the exception of the first *Fields of Grace*
festival held in Bloomington, since it coincided with a visit I made to my folks there.
Like Raf, I've seen the teaching quality going downhill on the tapes sent out.
Like Raf, I've wondered about the move from what CES was, to a full blown church.
I held my peace about it since I'm so far away, and have never been directly involved.
The only news I get from them is via tapes, or the Sower magazine.
And those two mediums of information don't detail all that is happening.
The TRUTH OR TRADITION and BIBLICAL UNITARIAN sites are something I can support.
But I won't support *dreamology*, or whatever it is called.
Reading those two PDF documents make me sick to think that that's what's going on.
Like I said -- this is the first I have heard of ANY of this, and it's mind boggling.
So Captain Crunch, Billy D, Jeff (the supply guy), thanks for your input.
I also (Bullinger) will be waiting for the election in January.
What is going on now has to be stopped.
David
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J0nny Ling0
Whoa. Way spooky. I don't see anything in that that resembles life in the First Century Church. I say: RUN AWAY.
And, apparently this "Elizabeth" is JALs second wife? I hadn't heard that he'd remarried after he and Pat split up.
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alfakat
I will not go into great detail here but KAG has been more or less the type of person described in the letter from JAL's second wife since she was in the in-rez kork. We'uns in the 6ckpphhtt kork had to listen to a loony-tunes tape of her experiences of an "Exorcist, Legion-style" spirit possessed individual on her interim year and the chief spirit named(drum roll, please, give it up for....) SWATRATTRA!! She was a case, she is a case; nuff said, I believe.......
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Jeff USAF RET
There is a paper going around from the Graeser's and Resner's as to why Mark should not step down as President before the Board of Director's meeting / their position paper.
I don't have a copy of it but I know it starts off with:
We (the majority) of the Ordained community of Spirit & Truth.....
Just so anyone knows that might get this e-mail / letter, the "majority" spoken of there is:
Mark Graeser
Karen Graeser
Tom Resner
Susan Resner (a VERY close friend of Karen Ann)
Nancy Berwid (another VERY close friend of Karen Ann)
That makes 5 of the ordained community.
The other folks are:
John Schoenheit
Dan Gallagher
Gary Theisen
Karen Theisen
So it's the same basic Board of Directors split of 4 / 2. They (Mark Graeser and Tom Resner) just add in their wifes and dear friend Nancy so they can say the "majority of the ordained community of Spirit & Truth."
Bless ya!
Jeff
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rhino
Just curious, if the president can legally fire folks, how is the president legally removed from power over the assets?
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Captain Crunch
If the paper is only about Mark not stepping down before January 15th, what's the point? It's December 17th now. I'd really like to read that one.
I'd like to here public repentance from all of them, or step down. Let's see if the next Sower is genuine or just a bunch of spin.
Jeff, what authority does the ordained clergy have? Can they do anything to keep the Graesers in control?
CC
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socks
Well, you can't say politics without saying "tic". (socks 24:2, Open Standard Version, Revised) It's got 'em by the bag full.
If GS had a Prophetic Coucnil, I'd say it has spoken. Let it be written, verified, ratified and Stamped Approved this day of December 17, in the Year of Our Spouse, by All They Who Thus Speak and They Who Nod, by Proxy: CES is in a mess.
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A la prochaine
Alfie....
Swattratra????? huh?????
Socks....
hahahaha
This whole thing is almost laughable. It's like watching a weird movie about weirdoes thinking they're gonna take over the world by convincing everyone that they have powers to contact the ALL MIGHTY... who happens to live on Pluto and grows hemp for a living...
where does it end???
these people sure do like to complicate their lives... holy schmoly..
my advice to them: go see a good concert, have a few brews and enjoy the tunes!!
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TheEvan
Yes. Swatratra. "We" (including me n alfa n others) called BS on that back then. I guess as a show of utter disrespect of just plain nuttiness, we named our little corps twig "Swatratra".
Okay, so we had problems...
(But I'm telling the truth)
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dmiller
The Scripture according to Socks ----
(Cough!!!) My fiddle calls, and my guitar gently weeps.
I need to *minister* on the home front here.
(taking care of local needs, don't cha know!)
;)
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Captain Crunch
This thread is getting long, but don't forget to read the files attached to my posts on page 2 and 3. Otherwise, it will eventually go off topic.
CC
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Sudo
Ala,
Re:"This whole thing is almost laughable. It's like watching a weird movie about weirdoes thinking they're gonna take over the world by convincing everyone that they have powers to contact the ALL MIGHTY... "
Yeah, but the suckers from one cult (TWI) are ripe pickings for an offshoot, huh? And the Shiites and Sunni's are murdering each other over in Iraq over which is the true religion. CES is running on personal dreams and revelations? Well.. how does *THAT* make them *any* different from any other religion?
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shazdancer
Sheesh, what weirdness!
Jeff, you mentioned you were part of this prophecy circle at one time. I'm curious as to how this practice got its start. It sounds like, from people who knew KAG back in the Corps days, that she was into "spiritual" stuff back then. We all were to some extent, I suppose, but some of us were a little more enamored of it than others.
Was "personal prophesy" something that started with K getting into being a prophet, and then others got on board with it?
How does this jive with what was taught in TWI, that God would speak first with the individual?
This thing just reminds me so much of the Salem witch hunts, people pointing fingers at one another in the name of God, with no defense possible.
Regards,
Shaz
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Bluzeman
QUOTE(socks @ Dec 17 2006, 05:34 PM)
Well, you can't say politics without saying "tic". (socks 24:2, Open Standard Version, Revised) It's got 'em by the bag full.
So you know the definition of politics then! Poli meaning many, and tics meaning "blood sucking parasites" :)
(Yes, I know this is not a real definition, or even accurate...but it's STILL funny!)
Rick
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Captain Crunch
Wasn't Karen Anne Graeser ordained when Mark was? If not, isn't it strange that they would ordain others before the prophetess?
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J0nny Ling0
Evan. You named your twig "Swattrattra"? I just read that post to my 7th Corps wife (she knew what a drama queen KAG was), and Mrs Lingo burst out laughing. She said that that kind of humor in the Corps is reminiscent of the day when Anthony Patch prayed up in the Ambassador Room for "poor little Clarita who at this moment is being bitten by devils......." Such irreverence! :)
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Dot Matrix
I recall JAL talking to me about writing down prophecy that God gives you personally when you are alone.
It sounded odd to me. Then a bit like automatic hand writing.
After reading those notes it is laughable.
Which corps was Karen in? I think I have her confused with some gal in my corps.
Isn't JAL ....ed everyone is pulling his wife apart?
What the hey?
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GarthP2000
Whoa hey! Sounds like my kinda people!
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Linda Z
Dot, she was in the 7th Corps. All I remember about her (didn't know her all that well) was that she talked nonstop. When she got engaged, some of my friends and I figured that maybe her incessant talking was caused by horniness and that when she got married, it would stop. Sounds like we were wrong.
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Linda Z
I'd be curious where they got the personal prrophecy bit, too. I'd only seen this doctrine once before, long ago, when I heard CES was into it.
When I was hanging out with some hippie Christians in California in the late 60s, they were really into this stuff, and we were urged to write down the "prophecies" so we could refer to them again. The way it "worked" (it didn't really work!) was we'd sit in a circle and Susie would say, "Joe, would you prophecy for me?" Then Joe would "bring forth" words meant specifically for Susie. Usually the "messages" would be like, "Susie, I've called you to be my handmaiden for all time. Follow my path and reach out to others, and I will bless your way." Then the specific guidance crap crept in.
People (whether intentionally or subconsciously) started to speak things that were coming from their own noggins (they probably did all along, really).
I don't believe we have the right to demand prophetic messages from God. Nor do I see any scriptural basis for that. Do these people think God Almighty, the Creator, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, is their lap dog, who jumps to do their bidding? I don't see life/God working that way, and like I said before, it can be hurtful and even dangerous.
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TheInvisibleDan
IMHO, the whole damn lot of them ought to "step down" and let such folks here such as Jeff, Billy D, and Captain Crunch take the helm.
Danny
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A la prochaine
Garth....
hee hee hee ... no comment!!
Evan... I still don't get the Swartratra bit? Is that a reference to something? Or is it just a strangeoid name to go with the strangeoid person who made it up?
I knew KA's brother. He was in the 8th Corps... a real arsenehole.
He's still in and says he sees the problems in TWI but can't leave since he employs so many TWIers for his business. (more like slave labour).
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mstar1
If I was going to follow a nutcase, it would be probably be THIS GUY,
I have no idea why folks have chosen a controlling looney tune like KAG or what her allure is... not for me thanks....
Always choose your nuts wisely
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