I don't know that there is anybody who posts here, who has been really involved with CES. I was unaware of a "prophetic counsel," but that's not surprising since I haven't been involved for many years. It must have come to be after my involvement.
My husband and I have been invited to become a part of this group over the years, but have always politely declined, being quite content with our church/bible study participation here where we live.
I attended the CES meeting in Munich, to reconnect with some old friends. That week-end was really fun for me, and I enjoyed it immensely. If I hadn't already been in Europe when it happened, I wouldn't have gone. Other than that, I have nothing really to add here. All this stuff is quite frankly, pretty shocking to me. :blink:
Some of the characters in this soap opera, my husband and I have known since our teens, and college days. I have endeavored to keep up friendships, but that's about it.
As I said, I really don't think that there is anybody who posts here that has been a part of CES. At least, not to my knowledge.
The exitance of a Prophetic Council was announced - people knew it existed. But as far as its inner workings and any publication of its prophecies I must say that only a few at the top ever were privy to those, unless of course you were an unlucky one who was on the receiving end of its insights.
It has seemed like a very bad idea in practice for a long time. Time to shut it down.
I was (sorta) involved with CES from early 1995 - ~ early 2000, and in that time I never heard about this 'Prophetic Council'. At the time they were big into Personal Prophecy, and have started to fade out Momentus. My fade out point with them culminated with them shutting down their message board that I was rather active on (and about the time Raf's infamous THE threads started )
Looking back, I'm glad I dropped those bozos for good. <_<
I would be absolutely shocked that anyone who ever had anything to do with TWI, would continue to stay in CES after hearing this. I could understand it if you were not aware of this going on, but now that it has been made public, come on, this is crazy stuff. I mean there was some over the top stuff at TWI, but this crap is just down right spooky. Gosh when will people ever learn that Jesus Christ was our intercessor and that we do not need to follow another man..............
I am really shocked that John Lynn would buy into this and the Momentum thing, especially when he seemed so right on about leaving TWI. How did it come to this??
Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus
Once Jesus is out of the picture the only thing it can come to is this...confusion, fear, accusation (hmmm...Jesus is our mediator before God and satan is our accuser before God....hmmmm), sorrow, shame, etc.
Knowing the bible, knowing how to research the bible, knowing how to teach the bible, making the bible your center reference for truth, the bible the bible the bible the bible the bible blah de blah de blah blah blah...
Ever learning and never coming to the knowledge of the truth...
It's the word, the word and nothing but the word...
But it's not God's Word Jesus.
Buy a vowel (not you outofdafog...people in general).
Pick a different door.
The sand upon which CES (and all other offshoots) is built was shifting quicksand in the first place...could never be made into solid rock.
Why the hell do people STILL...after all these years of trancenet, WayDale, GSC, etc...STILL think that just a little tweaking here and there and twi would have been just fine???????????????
Why the hell are people STILL SURPRISED when SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT comes out of the sewer??????????
It took me years to finally see this stuff...even when I was being banned from the odd list for going 'round and 'round with JAL over this crap years ago...I still had a friggin' way tree growing in my eye.
So I'm not ranting AT anybody...but ABOUT the crap that keeps floating to the top and calling itself cream.
It came to this as it comes to all of us.....through deception.
Everyone is subject to that fog..and most of us have been in it.
Deception is ...... quite deceitful.
Our enemy is an accuser, tempter and deceiver. We know when we are tempted...we know when we are accused...but we don't know when we are deceived.
It takes others to help us see that one.
If you are not deceived in the way that I am, you can see clearly what I cannot.
Although none of my tiny steps seemed like a problem at the time.....you who took none of those steps can clearly see that the culmination of them all is quite a big problem.
So how will I too see the light?
I must be humble. I must be willing to consider something other than what I already think.
Yet most of us have had it drilled into us that considering something other than what "THE Ministry" has taught us is actuallly the road TO deception!
Humility is the key.
And humility is something we all need to continue to increase in. Therefore, as the un-deceived in this particular case, we certainly should be able to pray for these brothers and sisters in Christ to increase in humility so as to be able to see the deception under which they have walked...and into which they have led others.
Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
......Which is why I say, there but for the grace of God go any of us.
......Which is why I say, there but for the grace of God go any of us.
I went there...in twi...and all the reasoning, all the 'think no evil', all the 'pull a brother out of the fire', all the trite cliches that kept me in twi even years and years after I was physically out...all that whole insanity I am seeing repeated right here on this thread.
What I finally had to learn is that as long as that damned tree was in my eye, I couldn't even fathom the mote in anybody else's eye.
IT IS NOT A HELP OR EVEN CHRISTIAN WISDOM TO SAVE SOMEBODY ELSE WHILE ONE IS FLOATING ON TURDS.
People don't change...organizations don't get better...when crap is mistaken for cream.
And how many times can one make such a mistake before it is evident that one prefers the crap to the cream?
Thanks for speaking those words. Some of the people involved in this mess, I've known for decades, and really care about. Thanks for the balance in your perspective.
I would really like to see healing and restoration in this situation but there is so much water over the dam - sometimes when a million people can see someone is messed up that one person can still refuse to listen. History tells us that our TWI leadership had to be pulled away from their practical errors and ways of hurting people with chains and tanks and some never did repent. I wish some of those involved in this would look in the mirror and say "my God what have I done to people I profess to love?" A simple "I am sorry for my part" would be a good start.
But as far as holding my breath.....My wife wrote Craig in 1986-87 several times the kindest heartfelt letters looking for his repentance. Looks like based on his actions in the 90's that it didn't take. I told her she was wasting her time.
In the next few months people will have the opportunity to show if they are a good fountain or a bad fountain, or perhaps - a chance at being a bad fountain asking Jesus for help to become a good fountain.
Strange, though, that this group's idea of "trying to find its feet" is to look for other classes and groups from which to patch together a program, and even a theology. Almost like the Bible isn't enough, there have got to be thrills....
Hmmmmmm - you know, the frog that finds itself in a pot of water that is about to boil says the same thing.......
I'd say that when it come to religious matters, folks are way too easily lulled to sleep. They find something that is working for them and then they fold their hands, press "Auto-Pilot" and let someone or something else take to wheel.
Moral of the story - take care of you and yours. Keep YOUR eyes and ears open. Don't wait for someone to tell you "what the Lord is saying." ASK HIM YOURSELF AND LISTEN. If you smell a rat - go looking for a rat and stop telling yourself that perhaps you're mistaken and that smell is really some roses that need some watering.
Have I mixed up enough metaphors for all of you English majors...?
The "prophetic council"...sounds impressive to me. Wasn't Obi Wan Kanobi an original member?
It has a ring of importance to it...a deep spiritual understanding...those to whom God makes known the things that the rest of us can't handle...the important people...those who work closely with the Lord...the "prophetic council"...I like it....
Strange, though, that this group's idea of "trying to find its feet" is to look for other classes and groups from which to patch together a program, and even a theology. Almost like the Bible isn't enough, there have got to be thrills....
Shaz
Exactly shaz.........thanks for putting it into better words than I.........
Why not just hang at each other's houses and have some hot bible and visit and help each other etc etc. People really don't seem to get out of the "box" that TWI had them in in the first place, they just went to a different box. Really, not here to judge, I just love to see deliverance in peoples lives, not sorrow, guilt, disappointment, pain etc. caused by the over inflated ego of others.
The "prophetic council"...sounds impressive to me. Wasn't Obi Wan Kanobi an original member?
They used to do those jousting and sword fighting role playing things every weekend by where I lived for years ... forget what it is called renaissance something... but I'm wonderin' ... in this dreamland fantasy game these stiffy guys are playing, do people wear Star Wars costumes and all? Or does the prophetess dress like princess Leah?
Thanks for sharing what is going on with CES. However, I know Dan Gallagher personally. I think he is very bright and extremely loyal. I think anyone (male or female) that fires him is crazy, crazy, crazy, crazy. Jeff, in the Way denomination to much of an empahasis was placed on revelation versus simply following the wisdom that God brings to each and every heart that seeks him. If you are still hearing voices in order to make major decisions rather that letting the full counsel of God come to your heart then you are headed down a slippery slope. If God is going to tell me something I am not just going to hear one faint voice. God is going to tell me to the end that my entire logic and reasoning system is persuaded beyond doubt. If not then the voices could be anything and I have to be honest with myself and recognize that. The voices may be the man on the moon for all I know.
I think Dan Gallagher is a man of vision. I have my doubts about the vision of someone who fires him however. But then again maybe CES is doing him a favor. He is a talented man. I think he will make out just fine. As for CES, I have my doubts.
But thanks for setting the record straight Jeff. We appreciate your candor.
If you are still hearing voices in order to make major decisions rather that letting the full counsel of God come to your heart then you are headed down a slippery slope.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
32
31
40
40
Popular Days
Dec 18
91
Dec 21
90
Dec 20
86
Dec 19
85
Top Posters In This Topic
excathedra 32 posts
Tom Strange 31 posts
dmiller 40 posts
therebutforgrace 40 posts
Popular Days
Dec 18 2006
91 posts
Dec 21 2006
90 posts
Dec 20 2006
86 posts
Dec 19 2006
85 posts
Popular Posts
notinKansasanymore
Well, then let's PRAY for them. If they're having troubles, and if their original intention was to serve God and help His people (and we can all recall that this is not a goal without natural obsta
Sushi
I'm not exactly sure of the quote, but someone once said, "All organizations have the seeds of death planted in them at their beginning", or something to that effect. You can be sure, whatever organiz
Whatsgoingon
I am very discouraged with my present involvement with STFI. If Mark G causes more issues with SFTI after he is removed from office next week we will probably cease our involvement with that organizat
Posted Images
ex10
Tom Strange,
I don't know that there is anybody who posts here, who has been really involved with CES. I was unaware of a "prophetic counsel," but that's not surprising since I haven't been involved for many years. It must have come to be after my involvement.
My husband and I have been invited to become a part of this group over the years, but have always politely declined, being quite content with our church/bible study participation here where we live.
I attended the CES meeting in Munich, to reconnect with some old friends. That week-end was really fun for me, and I enjoyed it immensely. If I hadn't already been in Europe when it happened, I wouldn't have gone. Other than that, I have nothing really to add here. All this stuff is quite frankly, pretty shocking to me. :blink:
Some of the characters in this soap opera, my husband and I have known since our teens, and college days. I have endeavored to keep up friendships, but that's about it.
As I said, I really don't think that there is anybody who posts here that has been a part of CES. At least, not to my knowledge.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Captain Crunch
EX10-
I am sure they are lurking. They need to read the prophesies and letters. :-)
CC
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
Aye, Aye, Captain!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
richnchrispy
Tom Strange
The exitance of a Prophetic Council was announced - people knew it existed. But as far as its inner workings and any publication of its prophecies I must say that only a few at the top ever were privy to those, unless of course you were an unlucky one who was on the receiving end of its insights.
It has seemed like a very bad idea in practice for a long time. Time to shut it down.
Richard
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
I was (sorta) involved with CES from early 1995 - ~ early 2000, and in that time I never heard about this 'Prophetic Council'. At the time they were big into Personal Prophecy, and have started to fade out Momentus. My fade out point with them culminated with them shutting down their message board that I was rather active on (and about the time Raf's infamous THE threads started
)
Looking back, I'm glad I dropped those bozos for good. <_<
Link to comment
Share on other sites
outofdafog
I would be absolutely shocked that anyone who ever had anything to do with TWI, would continue to stay in CES after hearing this. I could understand it if you were not aware of this going on, but now that it has been made public, come on, this is crazy stuff. I mean there was some over the top stuff at TWI, but this crap is just down right spooky. Gosh when will people ever learn that Jesus Christ was our intercessor and that we do not need to follow another man..............
I am really shocked that John Lynn would buy into this and the Momentum thing, especially when he seemed so right on about leaving TWI. How did it come to this??
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus
Once Jesus is out of the picture the only thing it can come to is this...confusion, fear, accusation (hmmm...Jesus is our mediator before God and satan is our accuser before God....hmmmm), sorrow, shame, etc.
Knowing the bible, knowing how to research the bible, knowing how to teach the bible, making the bible your center reference for truth, the bible the bible the bible the bible the bible blah de blah de blah blah blah...
Ever learning and never coming to the knowledge of the truth...
It's the word, the word and nothing but the word...
But it's not God's Word Jesus.
Buy a vowel (not you outofdafog...people in general).
Pick a different door.
The sand upon which CES (and all other offshoots) is built was shifting quicksand in the first place...could never be made into solid rock.
Why the hell do people STILL...after all these years of trancenet, WayDale, GSC, etc...STILL think that just a little tweaking here and there and twi would have been just fine???????????????
Why the hell are people STILL SURPRISED when SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT comes out of the sewer??????????
It took me years to finally see this stuff...even when I was being banned from the odd list for going 'round and 'round with JAL over this crap years ago...I still had a friggin' way tree growing in my eye.
So I'm not ranting AT anybody...but ABOUT the crap that keeps floating to the top and calling itself cream.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
therebutforgrace
It came to this over much time.
It came to this in tiny steps.
It came to this as it comes to all of us.....through deception.
Everyone is subject to that fog..and most of us have been in it.
Deception is ...... quite deceitful.
Our enemy is an accuser, tempter and deceiver. We know when we are tempted...we know when we are accused...but we don't know when we are deceived.
It takes others to help us see that one.
If you are not deceived in the way that I am, you can see clearly what I cannot.
Although none of my tiny steps seemed like a problem at the time.....you who took none of those steps can clearly see that the culmination of them all is quite a big problem.
So how will I too see the light?
I must be humble. I must be willing to consider something other than what I already think.
Yet most of us have had it drilled into us that considering something other than what "THE Ministry" has taught us is actuallly the road TO deception!
Humility is the key.
And humility is something we all need to continue to increase in. Therefore, as the un-deceived in this particular case, we certainly should be able to pray for these brothers and sisters in Christ to increase in humility so as to be able to see the deception under which they have walked...and into which they have led others.
Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
......Which is why I say, there but for the grace of God go any of us.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
I went there...in twi...and all the reasoning, all the 'think no evil', all the 'pull a brother out of the fire', all the trite cliches that kept me in twi even years and years after I was physically out...all that whole insanity I am seeing repeated right here on this thread.
What I finally had to learn is that as long as that damned tree was in my eye, I couldn't even fathom the mote in anybody else's eye.
IT IS NOT A HELP OR EVEN CHRISTIAN WISDOM TO SAVE SOMEBODY ELSE WHILE ONE IS FLOATING ON TURDS.
People don't change...organizations don't get better...when crap is mistaken for cream.
And how many times can one make such a mistake before it is evident that one prefers the crap to the cream?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
Chas -- both yes and no to this (imo).
I see your point, but by the same token they were also testing new waters.
(NOT that I am condoning this latest fiasco).
For what it's worth -- my impression of the folks in CES is one of
"Let's see what other ministries have to offer".
In other words -- breaking out of the twi box we were all in.
Which is a GOOD thing, and given their experimentation/ curiosity --
they found, promoted, and had to reject a few *doctrines* as a result.
Back in the mid to early 1990's, they ran across a guy named Greg Pharis
who promoted the Personal Prophecy thing. He was/ is a staunch Baptist.
Regardless of that, he was willing to travel with JAL (however briefly) to teach about it.
I met him here in Minney-soda at a meeting hosted by Vic Barnard
(Grand daughter can tell you all about vic b.) :(
and he (Greg) was most gracious to all,
even though he thought differently doctrinally speaking.
CES and Greg went separate ways, since Greg couldn't get over the JCING issue.
(that is what I've heard about this one).
Momentus was being abandoned by CES at that time,
since it was determined that it caused more hurt than help.
So --blowing hot, then cold?? Meebe.
But maybe it's like walking too when you're trying to find your feet.
That's how I have seen it.
Trying to find what others have to offer is more than twi ever did.
To be sure -- yer going to get a bad apple from the orchard occassionally,
but at least you are looking for good fruit.
Again -- This new news is disturbing to me.
This transcends the bounds of *trying to find your feet*.
It is entering the field of M & A, and I don't like that.
Edited by dmillerLink to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
therebutforgrace
Thanks for speaking those words. Some of the people involved in this mess, I've known for decades, and really care about. Thanks for the balance in your perspective.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
richnchrispy
I would really like to see healing and restoration in this situation but there is so much water over the dam - sometimes when a million people can see someone is messed up that one person can still refuse to listen. History tells us that our TWI leadership had to be pulled away from their practical errors and ways of hurting people with chains and tanks and some never did repent. I wish some of those involved in this would look in the mirror and say "my God what have I done to people I profess to love?" A simple "I am sorry for my part" would be a good start.
But as far as holding my breath.....My wife wrote Craig in 1986-87 several times the kindest heartfelt letters looking for his repentance. Looks like based on his actions in the 90's that it didn't take. I told her she was wasting her time.
In the next few months people will have the opportunity to show if they are a good fountain or a bad fountain, or perhaps - a chance at being a bad fountain asking Jesus for help to become a good fountain.
Richard
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shazdancer
Strange, though, that this group's idea of "trying to find its feet" is to look for other classes and groups from which to patch together a program, and even a theology. Almost like the Bible isn't enough, there have got to be thrills....
Shaz
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Hmm.. personal prophecies, Jedi (ahem) I mean prophetic councils, etc, etc..
It reminds me more of another thread: "Doing the same old thing expecting different results".
"well, TWI didn't QUITE get it all so right. How about we do it this way.."
No wonder they are in such a mess.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
How did it come to this?
Hmmmmmm - you know, the frog that finds itself in a pot of water that is about to boil says the same thing.......
I'd say that when it come to religious matters, folks are way too easily lulled to sleep. They find something that is working for them and then they fold their hands, press "Auto-Pilot" and let someone or something else take to wheel.
Moral of the story - take care of you and yours. Keep YOUR eyes and ears open. Don't wait for someone to tell you "what the Lord is saying." ASK HIM YOURSELF AND LISTEN. If you smell a rat - go looking for a rat and stop telling yourself that perhaps you're mistaken and that smell is really some roses that need some watering.
Have I mixed up enough metaphors for all of you English majors...?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
alfakat
BINGO! shaz, you are a winnah, winnah, winnah...
seems like itching ears to me....
maybe they should try a KISS approach...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
The "prophetic council"...sounds impressive to me. Wasn't Obi Wan Kanobi an original member?
It has a ring of importance to it...a deep spiritual understanding...those to whom God makes known the things that the rest of us can't handle...the important people...those who work closely with the Lord...the "prophetic council"...I like it....
...may the force be with you.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Groucho, I was thinking of something like that, but thought I would leave at least some of the actual telling
for others
I can see it rather vividly, some poor new "learner" being inducted into the inner sanctum:
"Hide not your emotions, neither your wallet, see through them we can..."
Edited by Mr. HammeroniLink to comment
Share on other sites
outofdafog
Exactly shaz.........thanks for putting it into better words than I.........
Why not just hang at each other's houses and have some hot bible and visit and help each other etc etc. People really don't seem to get out of the "box" that TWI had them in in the first place, they just went to a different box. Really, not here to judge, I just love to see deliverance in peoples lives, not sorrow, guilt, disappointment, pain etc. caused by the over inflated ego of others.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rhino
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Sanguinetti
Dear Jeff:
Thanks for sharing what is going on with CES. However, I know Dan Gallagher personally. I think he is very bright and extremely loyal. I think anyone (male or female) that fires him is crazy, crazy, crazy, crazy. Jeff, in the Way denomination to much of an empahasis was placed on revelation versus simply following the wisdom that God brings to each and every heart that seeks him. If you are still hearing voices in order to make major decisions rather that letting the full counsel of God come to your heart then you are headed down a slippery slope. If God is going to tell me something I am not just going to hear one faint voice. God is going to tell me to the end that my entire logic and reasoning system is persuaded beyond doubt. If not then the voices could be anything and I have to be honest with myself and recognize that. The voices may be the man on the moon for all I know.
I think Dan Gallagher is a man of vision. I have my doubts about the vision of someone who fires him however. But then again maybe CES is doing him a favor. He is a talented man. I think he will make out just fine. As for CES, I have my doubts.
But thanks for setting the record straight Jeff. We appreciate your candor.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
RumRunner
Groucho - didn't you meant to say...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Thomas Loy Bumgarner
And also with you. Oops, that is The Lord be with you(Lutheran/Episcopalian/Catholic)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Sushi
When you pray, it's talking to God.
If God talks back, it's schizophrenia.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.