They overestimate themselves..

[Ham]

Really.

The practical demise of CES et al, and I didn't see even a murmer in the press.

Reporters were NOT anxiously waiting outside of the board room, waiting for the announcement..

no press releases..

"(ahem) little known cult in Indiana today fired its CEO, after suffering a fit of arachnaphobia.."

Nothing.

Of course it has some relevance to us, because of our ties to CES's parent organization, and to those involved..

Edited January 17, 2007 by Mr. Hammeroni

[cman]

ha! yeah, i suspect a judge would toss the whole lot of them out of the court room.

They all defamed their own character by their own actions.

Those guys are just hacked off cause we all know about their character by what they have done and not done.

[Ham]

I dunno.. it seems the only bit of press they can manage to muster up is HERE, at GSC.

Not to minimize our concerns or interests, but that does speak to me of the failure of the CES as an organization.

They've had over twenty years to make their mark..

Their last ditch effort with the personal prophecy gambit didn't stir up enough muck to get them mentioned in the local town news..

Well.. the matter MIGHT be fodder for Judge Joe Brown, or Judge Judy..

I usually don't watch TV court. But for that one, I'd make an exception..

[GrouchoMarxJr]

Over estimating themselves is an understatement...

...This whole charade has ALWAYS been about them and their egotistical sense of self importance. It's nothing more than an extension of Wierwille's "one true ministry" concept. When they "threw out the bathwater", they didn't keep the "baby"...they kept an ugly little green monster that is full of himself.

[doojable]

Over estimating themselves is an understatement...

...This whole charade has ALWAYS been about them and their egotistical sense of self importance. It's nothing more than an extension of Wierwille's "one true ministry" concept. When they "threw out the bathwater", they didn't keep the "baby"...they kept an ugly little green monster that is full of himself.

Even worse, Groucho - they've been making sure for years that they had a paycheck. They took the "CYA' concept and mastered it to the point that there was always a hoard of folks ready to cover their's. I've heard my fair share of quotes like, "Work smarter, not harder." this always indicated to me that these guys were only concerned with how to make a buck and have someone else do the work.

Can't you just feel the love?

[Tzaia]

I dunno.. it seems the only bit of press they can manage to muster up is HERE, at GSC.

Not to minimize our concerns or interests, but that does speak to me of the failure of the CES as an organization.

They've had over twenty years to make their mark..

Their last ditch effort with the personal prophecy gambit didn't stir up enough muck to get them mentioned in the local town news..

Well.. the matter MIGHT be fodder for Judge Joe Brown, or Judge Judy..

I usually don't watch TV court. But for that one, I'd make an exception..

It was because of the music - or lack thereof. I kept telling them to rent a school and get a great band and a tremendous worship leader and have praise and worship with a light message. They looked at me like I was nucking futs.

Any growing ministry puts a great deal of emphasis on music. Hillsong Church in Australia started out with about 130 people in 1988. It's in the UK and Kiev and has conferences that use about 5000 VOLUNTEERS for 25,000 attendees. It remained relatively small until they made Darlene Zchech the worship pastor.

[potato]

I have to call you out on using the word tremendous like that.

[Radar OReilly]

T.......

You obviously don't know the history of TWI very well.

ror

[excathedra]

as the STFI turns....

Statement of Values

#7.

We value the ministry that every believer has been given by God, whether apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher, administrator, encourager, minstrel, etc., and seek both to help people grow in their abilities and to provide opportunities for them to serve.

i see minstrel in there

[GrouchoMarxJr]

Maybe the reason these guys never really hit the big time (or the big bucks), is that they never had a good enough gimmick...the spiders in the nose bit wasn't graphic enough...maybe they should have taken a cue from Robert Tilton.

Tilton used to spread the prayer requests on the floor, get on his hands and knees and begin to crawl over them. He would then start rooting through them like a pig sniffing for truffles...all the while he would squint his eyes in contemplation...ever see an echidna? It's an animal from Austrailia that looks like a cross between an anteater and a porcupine...and it looks like it has venereal warts around it's eyes. When Tilton squinted, he looked like an echidna....the guy landed his own tv show and raked in millions...that is, until they caught him throwing the unread prayer requests into the dumpster out back. But the point is...ya gotta have a good gimmick to provide entertainment for people...the CES guys were always minor leaguers when it came to providing a good show.

Personal prohesy, spider dreams, etc just wasn't enough to get most people's attention...

[dmiller]

I have to call you out on using the word tremendous like that.

Darlene Zschech is Tremendous.

Allan W. (our resident Hillsong member), is the one qualified to speak about them --

but my observations (from the preceeding post by Tzaia) are:

1988 --- Hillsong had 130 people (I'm guessing -- as members).

That's the same time frame CES got *up and running*,

though not with that name, and with considerably more people.

Here Hillsong is (almost 20 years later), with 5,000 volunteers,

for an event that draws 25,000 folks.

That says something to me -- they are doing something right.

'Nother words --- folks are willing to volunteer,

and folks willingly come to the events.

I was at the Chicago conference in '86 or '87 (I forget the exact year now),

when JAL, Dubofsky, Belt, and others were there *explaining* the twi doings.

I remember that NO one wanted to sing songs.

While that seemed *cool* at the time -- the focus was on hang-ups of men.

Specifically docvic, and lcm.

And the focus also (Bullinger), was on what was said from the podium.

Now --- there are probably others here, who were also (Bullinger) there.

Mabey their concept of the meeting is different than mine ---

but from what I remember -- it was an *I'm right* and *Docvic was wrong* atmosphere.

Didn't hear a whole lot about Jesus or the Word in that meeting.

It was all about *we versus them*.

I'm not trying to *rag* on anybody, since I was a zombie back then as well.

I guess my point is -- had we sung some songs, not focused on the folks on stage,

and pointed our interest to where it should have been directed in the first place --

things might have turned out different.

But sadly -- we didn't, and they have not.

Music is a wonderful thing to get your mind off of whomever is at the podium,

and put your thoughts/ prayers/ etc., in proper perspective.

[doojable]

Just enough to manipulate, and not enough to cause a blip on the radar of most folks.

[Tom Strange]

...there were a lot of "volunteers" at the ROA as well... a lot.

[dmiller]

Tom --- you're right. Like I said --- Allan W. is the only one qualified (AFAIK),

to the Hillsong thing -- since he is a part of it.

:)

[VeganXTC]

I have never been to any offshoot meetings of any kind, but I do have family and friends who do, any they aren't shy about telling me all about them.

One I was told about, many years ago, was a meeting with JAL and B0 Re@h@rd. And the thing they talked about the most was the beautiful praise and worship music that was sung. Was this an early CES meeting, or since B0 was involved, was it something completely different? Does anyone know?

[GrouchoMarxJr]

Not sure Vegan...but I believe that JAL (a number of years ago), traveled around to the other splinter groups in an effort to unite them all into some sort of conglomeration...Bo included. I heard that Vince F nearly threw JAL out of his office physically.

[Kevlar2000]

I was at the Chicago conference in '86 or '87 (I forget the exact year now), when JAL, Dubofsky, Belt, and others were there *explaining* the twi doings.

I remember that NO one wanted to sing songs.

While that seemed *cool* at the time -- the focus was on hang-ups of men.

Specifically docvic, and lcm.

And the focus also (Bullinger), was on what was said from the podium.

Now --- there are probably others here, who were also (Bullinger) there.

Mabey their concept of the meeting is different than mine ---

but from what I remember -- it was an *I'm right* and *Docvic was wrong* atmosphere.

Didn't hear a whole lot about Jesus or the Word in that meeting.

It was all about *we versus them*.

I'm not trying to *rag* on anybody, since I was a zombie back then as well.

I guess my point is -- had we sung some songs, not focused on the folks on stage,

and pointed our interest to where it should have been directed in the first place --

things might have turned out different.

d,

I was at some of those type of meetings with RD and JAL in the MD/DC area around that time, and frankly, with the information they were presenting, I would not have been in the mood for music (even though I love to sing).

I was still wandering around in a state of shock. The information they were presenting was flooring me. Even though I had quit the Way by early 1987 (20 years ago! Woo-Hoo!), I was still ignorant about much that had happened to decimate "The Ministry". I was sad, depressed, angry...and I'm just not sure what kind of music they could have presented that would have brought me "up".

Of course, you're correct that had they "pointed our interest to where it should have been directed in the first place --

things might have turned out different."

But the information we were getting at that time from them was far better than the information we were getting from TWI...which was nothing.

[TrustAndObey]

Music?!! Is that what is missing from CES?! Hehe.. Weird how the emphasis of helping and serving others turned into how we can best "entertain" others.

Either entertaining them with PP, or entertaining them with music, or entertaining them with your great liturgical or research skills. Gee, when will people wake up and realize entertaining one another as a ministry is not the emphasis Christ nor Paul nor Peter nor any of those of the early church died for..

[doojable]

OK - One more time - this time with feeling...

Who here really gives a tiny little rat's chafed behind about the CES "God machine?" Isn't this really about the people it devoured. Music; amazing, healing, foot-stomping music, would not have saved that machine - It only would have lured more folks in to feed the beast.

If you start with garbage, and add sugar and vanilla,bake it in a flaky crust, and serve it a la mode with the finest ice cream in the world -IT'S STILL GARBAGE! Playing music and raising your hands in worship while you serve it won't help either.

And no, this recipe will not end up in the kitchen section.

[uptown1]

I was glad CES didn't try to keep it light.

I recently started going to church in my local area and that's one of the problems I noticed right away - they were feeding the people milk and no meat.

The milk of the word will keep you alive, but it won't help you grow strong.

If CES could manage to turn a corner and get rid of all the cult influence they still wouldn't become very large. The One God and One Lord book alone would keep them on the black list of Christianity.

I would like to see CES survive this and get better. Part of me thinks that could be possible.

Does anyone else here see any hope for them?

[1broken1]

I was glad CES didn't try to keep it light.

I recently started going to church in my local area and that's one of the problems I noticed right away - they were feeding the people milk and no meat.

The milk of the word will keep you alive, but it won't help you grow strong.

If CES could manage to turn a corner and get rid of all the cult influence they still wouldn't become very large. The One God and One Lord book alone would keep them on the black list of Christianity.

I would like to see CES survive this and get better. Part of me thinks that could be possible.

Does anyone else here see any hope for them?

Hi Uptown1. My Opinion for what it's worth.

I think God can redeem anything - in the sense or definition of 'restoration,' to bring something back to it's former condition or to it's full potential. I'll use the word redeem because it caries the sense of restoring by paying a price. I don't think God wants a bunch of westernized robots for Jesus, with twi mustaches, but instead wants to redeem us as we are, including our uniqueness and weakness. Look at all the colorful qualities of the people in the Bible - God didn't turn David "into" a Moses, they were David and Moses, completely different but beloved in God's eyes.

People at CES (like everywhere else) are 'broken' in a broken world and full of weaknesses. But at CES and formerly TWI, I have met some of the most passionate and giving people I've ever met in my life. Yes I know people got screwed in the WOW program, but I've never met anyone outside of that who would jump in a car with $10 or hitchhike across the country to go start a fellowship. I'm not saying I approve of or appreciate the program, I'm just talking about the heart of the people. I still feel that way.

I know people have abused PP, but I know people who haven't. I know church people who don't care and will never try - even though doing it the 'right way' could bring huge deliverance to people, most just really don't care to pursue a life spending the time to even see if it's possible. I know people in CES, CI, AG and other places that go out on a limb to TRY and go where they think the Lord is leading them.

I'm not trying to romanticize the situation, I just have to tell you that there are some people involved in CES that would give you their last dollar, plane ticket, gas money or thanksgiving dinner (you know who you are!) to see someone be blessed and to try and heed God's call. When I put aside the times I've seen wrong done that's what I think of when I think of people I've met through CES. But don't get me wrong, God does not ~NEED~ CES, but I think it is His wonderful heart to take whatever we bring to the table and make it beautiful. If we bring a bucket of dirt He will use it for roses.

There is a website called www.brokenwalls.com run by Christians that are aboriginal people's of the Americas. One of their CD's is drum worship with songs like, "Jesus died that I might live," and, "Holy is Jahweh." God did not "convert" them to look and act like us, but REDEEMED their hearts and culture for him.

I read the quote from the CD and think about the areas I think CES has fallen down in it's philosophy -

"It brings much liberty to those bound in religious thinking when the truth is placed before them. True worship comes from the heart (not the drum, guitar or any instrument) and when this is explained and demonstrated in worship, a wonderful liberty prevails with by products of restoration of self respect and dignity. “They shall know the truth and the truth shall set them free.” I pray that those whose hearts have been tainted by the “colonial gospel” that says, “You must give up your sin stained culture and embrace my sin stained culture in order to know Jesus,” won’t stop you from reaching those out there who are lost and dying."

the “colonial gospel” that says, “You must give up your sin stained culture and embrace my sin stained culture in order to know Jesus,”

It's not BECAUSE of our particular sin stained culture that people are lead to Jesus, it's IN SPITE OF IT by God's mercy and grace.

It's not really just about 'people' or an 'organization' - we're supposed to assemble together, and there's no such thing as an org without people. The hearts of the people together are a community and a community has a culture. People were drawn to CES for good and bad reasons, but I think mainly because they saw a place that looked like it could be home for the kind of person they were, to more fully express their walk with God and explore a lifetime of worship, working together to SUPPORT EACH OTHER to fully manifest their individual call by the Lord and placement into his body.

I know a charismatic Catholic who has been to every denomination and 'get's it' as far as you or I might consider 'right doctrine,' but he found his home in the catholic church as a deacon, lay minister for 'lifer' prisoners, and feeding the poor through catholic missions on his business trips to India. God bless him, and thank God the body is so diverse that there's a home for everyone who seeks the face of God 'early' as it says in Psalms. They will find Him DESPITE the sin stained culture that surrounds them.

I would love to see the culture of CES brought before the altar as a sacrifice - a willingness to give up the whole package to get a better one back.

Sometimes it just feels like being a little kid clutching a penny in our fist and God wants to hand us a fiver but we're just not letting go of our shiny penny. Seems like a lot to let go of before we can get something better, but it really just seems that way. What God offers is always better than what we can scrape together with our little programs.

[Belle]

I was glad CES didn't try to keep it light.

I recently started going to church in my local area and that's one of the problems I noticed right away - they were feeding the people milk and no meat.

The milk of the word will keep you alive, but it won't help you grow strong.

If CES could manage to turn a corner and get rid of all the cult influence they still wouldn't become very large. The One God and One Lord book alone would keep them on the black list of Christianity.

I would like to see CES survive this and get better. Part of me thinks that could be possible.

Does anyone else here see any hope for them?

uptown, most churches use the Sunday services for praise and worship - it's not meant to dig into the nitty gritty of study - and ya know what? That's a lot of what IS missing in TWI and CES, imo. Knowing how to diagram Greek and read Hebrew and memorize Bible verses and throw words like "meat" and "milk of the word" into everyday language is missing the big picture.

If you want those kinds of studies, though, every church I've visited has - gasp! - classes you can sign up for voluntarily - they have focused studies in their different "Sunday School" classes, they offer "outreach" activities and so much more regarding ways to actually "live and give" than these little isolated groups like CES and TWI can.

If you don't like the church you visited.... keep looking. The way CES is holding on to their devilish doctrines, practices and leadership - I wouldn't be holding my breath for them to recover - but then again, their foundation was rotten from the get go, imo.

[uptown1]

1broken1

You mentioned "CES, CI, AG." What are CI and AG?

I agree with the diversity of the body. I don't think of CES as the only "real" thing going. I'm interested in any good stuff I can find anywhere and I think a lot of other people are too.

What I liked about CES was the research they produced and the material that came from it (The Romans tapes, Journey Through the Old Testament, One God and One Lord, etc).

I'm having a hard time finding a lot of good stuff like this out there. Like I said before, I'm finding milk but not a lot of meat. I think the body is better with CES than without as far as this stuff goes. And that is why I want CES to survive and get better.

I see the latest development as a step forward. I think the pp abuse will stop and this incident will serve as a wake up call for many other areas in CES that look like they need attention such as the Christian Psychology push.

I also think CES will probably take a real hard look at the baggage they brought in because of their twi background.

This incident has nearly destroyed CES (and it may still do so). I can’t imagine that it will not wake them from their slumber.

As far as certain people being drawn to CES because it looked like a place where people like them could call home…well, I have some reservations there. I think the ex-wayfer culture has largely stagnated. This is a guess on my part and I could be totally wrong about that.

The WOW people you mentioned were only willing to take these kinds of risks for God when they believed there was an organization standing behind them. Now that the glory days of twi are long gone these same people (not all of them of course) are no longer taking on these types of challenges.

It seems to me that much of the zeal is gone. We were lead to believe in a man and an organization – that is where we put our faith – not in God or Christ. That was supposed to be the big lesson we all learned from the twi experience.

With that lesson learned and our faith put where it belongs – in God and Christ – people should be revved up to go and really do something for God this time. But what I see are a lot of people either reliving the twi glory days like a bunch of has-beens (I didn’t mean for that to sound so harsh) or they seem content to b%ch and complain about the twi ad nauseam.

[uptown1]

Belle,

I did sign up for the bible study. It starts next month and I'm hoping it will be a little deeper than what I've experienced so far.

And I've already found another church to check out. Since I've never actually gone to church before it seemed like a good idea to check several just to see what's out there.

I have a very limited experience with church at this point, so we'll see. I’ll keep you posted.

[WordWolf]

Uptown,

forgive me if I remain cynical that this will result in any changes other than cosmetic

at CES/STFI. Too much work and too much humility needed to truly revamp the

group-they'll need to gut much of the current focus, and that's going to take admitting

their foci were completely wrong.

I think they're going to keep their baggage, make no real changes,

announce an exploratory committee to examine some stuff and be very vague

about what they're doing, maybe announce that a few times,

and that's the last real action you're going to see on that. Ever.

CES/STFI is free to prove me wrong on that-and I hope they will.

However, I'm thinking about a leopard and spots here.