I am so thankful to the people who "were there" who tell what went on regarding things that good little followers such as I would never know for sure, but the sin and filth made for a situation that just didn't fit with the believer babble we were fed.
The Greasespot Cafe has been a forum for people who have been so very instrumental in helping me know the truth and it has helped my soul become so much more free.
I can't remember how to spell his last name. If anybody still has our graduating corps list (polar bear? Keynote? Cacoon chuckers?) it was be on there. But I it's Jan Henriksen.
I can't remember how to spell his last name. If anybody still has our graduating corps list (polar bear? Keynote? Cacoon chuckers?) it was be on there. But I it's Jan Henriksen.
I told you, Ex10, that I would update you as I have information, and I will. I've contact the Norwegian authorities, and while much information prior to 1990 is held on microfiche and in paper form, they have been very kind and will be sending a snail-mail packet to me.
When that arrives, I'll scan and copy what they send. As you know, my concern was not having enough information upon which to proceed and didn't want to waste time, but, your information was particularly helpful. Jan Henriksen is the name on record, and whether or not twi was referenced in particular, I have no information at present.
The only information I will receive is that which is considered public record. My Norwegian is not as strong as my Danish, but, a qualified translator will look over everything before I post it, just to be sure it's accurate.
I knew Jan. Actually, there were two Norwegians at HQ when I was there and if I'm not mistaken they were both named "Jan." They were translating various materials into Norwegian.
What would Jan's victims, if they could speak, want us to know?
Or would they prefer to be forgotten - just as if they'd never lived at all? Forgotten, as if never loved, as if never having been loved. As if their two lives amounted to nothing. Forgotten, as if nothing achieved, as if no priceless promise gone unfulfilled. Neither even ashes to ashes, nor dust to dust. Just dust. "Dust" that took itself far too seriously for a short while, before being made to remember its place. Dust must be swept away.
Is that how they should (not) be remembered? It happened so far away, and so long ago. Agree they never lived, and we won't need to consider what it means to have lived, and then to have been murdered by the ministry-appointed "man of God." So far away, so long ago. It's tiring to remember the dead. "Let the dead bury their dead," aren't we commanded to go and preach?
--
Of course, somebody must remember them. Relatives, siblings, their old friends? The ones we would count on too. Not "believers." Believers move on. Friendships, love, family, they endure. If the best you can do is "believe," then you'll be leaving. We can see right through you.
If they still survive, the aging parents must carry that grief, as fresh and bitter as the telephone call that gave them the inconceivable truth. (Should they have been spared the truth too, as we were?)
--
24 years ago...
"That bible teacher you've been hearing about, from your child, the bible teacher, the same bible teacher has unfortunately slain your child. You know, murdered? (Well, we don't know the whole story, but obviously he was really off the Word that day - old and new testaments. He was not in fellowship. Daddy's cookie jar was closed, and the "trap door" wide open.) But that isn't all. Both victims were born again. (Both, yes, there was another.) So it's okay, not senses-wise but spiritually. They'll be at the bema some day! It's too bad they didn't have more time to earn those rewards, but well... Believing is receiving, that's what they always told me.
"One other thing. You know of course the Way International, Inc, USA, as a 501c3 non-profit corporation [?], bears no liability, criminal or civil, in this matter, under all the pertinent laws and statutes. The murderer's association with The Way Ministry was purely coincidental, purely conjecture, and pure fabrication. They've never even heard of him. This is why they'll have some papers for you to sign.
"Do you hear that? The attorneys are knocking at the side door. Go answer it. Let them in. Offer them coffee and something to eat, and they will explain how it is. They have an envelope for you, to defray the costs. Take it. You'll need it. All you have to do is sign."
--
Sheep will return to eating as soon as they feel they are out of immediate danger. Not far off, one that was too slow, one of them, is ripped limb from limb. They study the grass, it fills their eyes, it fills their stomachs, and they hear only the sounds of their own chewing, their comrade's purchase and sacrifice unappreciated and already forgotten, except, for as long they feed upon him, by wolves.
Of course, somebody must remember them. Relatives, siblings, their old friends? The ones we would count on too. Not "believers." Believers move on. Friendships, love, family, they endure.
tragic.... tears.....
just like the proud corps grad locked up in the mental hospital
just like my friend turned on to coke and more by her spiritual leader
just like art poling's daughter
just like that poor husband who committed suicide over martindale and his wife
just like rochelle weinberg
let's keep it quiet lest the precious ministry be blamed or sued
[size="3"]I detest the Way International corporation more and more every day. Reading this makes me angry that I supported this corporation for 19 years with my money and my life.
I am not perfect and have done many things wrong in my life, but I have confessed my sins to God and asked for forgiveness. I wonder if Jan has ever done that?
God bless the families of those murdered 'believers'.[/size]
I have no other information than what I've already posted--which is merely the details I've learned here that are the sum of recollections. Again, I await information from Norway.
If anyone else knows...? On that I have no information at all.
One of the gals was in the (I)international 15th corps and her name was Irene. I can't remember her last name even though she was my roomie in residence. She was beautiful with white blonde hair and a perfect complexion. She was great friends with Gru Christiansen.
Any other (former) 13th or 15th corps out there remember her?
What would Jan's victims, if they could speak, want us to know?
Or would they prefer to be forgotten - just as if they'd never lived at all? Forgotten, as if never loved, as if never having been loved. As if their two lives amounted to nothing. Forgotten, as if nothing achieved, as if no priceless promise gone unfulfilled. Neither even ashes to ashes, nor dust to dust. Just dust. "Dust" that took itself far too seriously for a short while, before being made to remember its place. Dust must be swept away.
Is that how they should (not) be remembered? It happened so far away, and so long ago. Agree they never lived, and we won't need to consider what it means to have lived, and then to have been murdered by the ministry-appointed "man of God." So far away, so long ago. It's tiring to remember the dead. "Let the dead bury their dead," aren't we commanded to go and preach?
--
Of course, somebody must remember them. Relatives, siblings, their old friends? The ones we would count on too. Not "believers." Believers move on. Friendships, love, family, they endure. If the best you can do is "believe," then you'll be leaving. We can see right through you.
If they still survive, the aging parents must carry that grief, as fresh and bitter as the telephone call that gave them the inconceivable truth. (Should they have been spared the truth too, as we were?)
--
24 years ago...
"That bible teacher you've been hearing about, from your child, the bible teacher, the same bible teacher has unfortunately slain your child. You know, murdered? (Well, we don't know the whole story, but obviously he was really off the Word that day - old and new testaments. He was not in fellowship. Daddy's cookie jar was closed, and the "trap door" wide open.) But that isn't all. Both victims were born again. (Both, yes, there was another.) So it's okay, not senses-wise but spiritually. They'll be at the bema some day! It's too bad they didn't have more time to earn those rewards, but well... Believing is receiving, that's what they always told me.
"One other thing. You know of course the Way International, Inc, USA, as a 501c3 non-profit corporation [?], bears no liability, criminal or civil, in this matter, under all the pertinent laws and statutes. The murderer's association with The Way Ministry was purely coincidental, purely conjecture, and pure fabrication. They've never even heard of him. This is why they'll have some papers for you to sign.
"Do you hear that? The attorneys are knocking at the side door. Go answer it. Let them in. Offer them coffee and something to eat, and they will explain how it is. They have an envelope for you, to defray the costs. Take it. You'll need it. All you have to do is sign."
--
Sheep will return to eating as soon as they feel they are out of immediate danger. Not far off, one that was too slow, one of them, is ripped limb from limb. They study the grass, it fills their eyes, it fills their stomachs, and they hear only the sounds of their own chewing, their comrade's purchase and sacrifice unappreciated and already forgotten, except, for as long they feed upon him, by wolves.
I have to respond to this man's heart so late here in Africa after reading so many times his response. Don't any of you see what he is saying? Please do not respond to me. But this person understands. I am tired of being attacked. Others have paid a much higher price for being involved in this game of twi. Whatever the police reports reveal, it's PRESS reports that are most important. Really, it's late at night for me now and I'm tired. But listen to his heart!
Speaking only for myself, my main interest is in seeing what, if any, involvement the organization (ie: The Way) had in these events and subsequent events.
I don't mean to sound like I am defending TWI, but did this individual act soley on his own?
I mean, we have all heard of tragic incidents that have involved Postal workers, but they were acting as individuals.
Anyone know how the "ministry" factored into the events or legal proceedings?
Bolshevic--------If you are reading this post, perhaps it sheds some light on the "spiritual scanner" question.
Bumpy--------I have no intention of "attacking" you. In fact, let me say "thank you" for opening this line of discussion
Even TWI didn't endorse murder, even behind closed doors (and YES, I know what I am talking about, and YES, in this one statement, I know I am correct )
One of the benefits of a thread like this is to expose TWI and it's inner workings in the following light:
Twi ROUTINELY put(s) it's followers at risk by putting immature, ill advised and improperly trained people in leadership positions.....from the bot/bod down to the twig/fellowship and wow family unit levels. As stated earlier in this thread, there was an early corps grad that murdered his parents, there were NUMEROUS corps grads that tragically commited suicide as well as this tragic situation in Norway (God knows how many situations were kept completely silent.)
For example, while in residence in 1983 I had been assigned to hitchhike from KS to HQ with another 13th corps person, he was "the guy," I was "the girl." During the early days of Waydale, I found out that before this guy and I went into the WC, he had murdered his wife with a shotgun after finding her in bed with another man. In the state he lived at the time (before he took pfal) had a "heat of passion" law on the books so he had done a VERY minimal amount of time in the pokey.
He eventually became a region coordinator I was quite close to he and his wife, I worked in the twi trunk office....but learning that info makes my blood run like ice. He had a horrific temper and to this day, I can recall events that worry me about him having oversight of God's people, or ANY people for that matter. This topic is difficult, and it is uncomfortable........but it is something that needs to be brought back up periodically so that as each new generation of twi follower breaks free, and as each "innie" reads this thread.........they realize the type of organization they are / were a part of.
Did The Way condone the commission of murder? That question hasn't been seriously asked, not here, anyway.
They need not sink to the level of approving murder to be found guilty of gross negligence, depraved indifference, to the lives of men and women who trusted their leadership as stewards of a Christian ministry.
As Radar points out, The Way had little taste for calculating or recognizing risks. Oh, I'm sure they took out proper insurance on the ministry's material assets, but people were cast like bread upon the waters, and whether they sank or swam was attributable only to their own "believing," and not the relative distance from shore or the possibility of sharks, and certainly not the decision that put them in harm's way.
Why is there no public memorial to the victims on TWI's grounds? There ought to be. A tribute of some kind, at the very least. But to name Jan H's victims would have led to the questions that might expose them, and they knew that. So they covered it up, like a corpse in a casket.
TWI means to keep the scandal hidden, but there's more to it. They truly see the victims as losers, failures, "cop outs." Certainly no glory to God. An embarrassment, really. After all, by TWI's 5th grade theology, it was their believing that allowed them to be murdered. In fact, TWI's official, corporate sympathy probably lies with Jan H, who never would have killed them had his (virtually) nameless and forgotten victims' believing been up to par. Poor Jan H. They tempted him with their unbelief. It wasn't his fault. That's how they think.
This would have been under Martindale's watch, would it not? (Nothing was Martindale's fault, either.) Wierwille was in decline, he died in '85. Somewhere around then he was dishing the "POOP" (passing of our patriarch) to the patron saint of toadies for posthumous release - it would be VP's last will and excrement, so to speak.
Even TWI didn't endorse murder, even behind closed doors (and YES, I know what I am talking about, and YES, in this one statement, I know I am correct )
But I do recall an episode described in one of those early CES Way-expose tapes - where leaders gathered about "St. Victoronius" actually discussed hiring a hitman to knock off some critic or opponent (or were they joking? I don't know) - which provoked a gruff reaction from the old Patriarch, who arose from his seat and hobbled out of the room.
Or something to that effect. Someone else here must have that tape.
I had wondered if the US Way didn't know of these murders because, well, not being Americans, it didn't really matter (not starting a fight here, but sometimes some Americans have limited knowledge of what's going on outside the USA (ducking for cover)).
But in fact it probably was more to do with the very limited permission to know anything outside TWI unless it boosted the image in the distorting mirror that made TWI seem bigger than it was.
Were at least the WC told at the time?
Looks like a tailor made teaching opportunity just got overlooked...
I remember in rez when a staff member died suddenly. The news was quite kindly broken to the in-rez WC by the BCs. I guess there was an announcement at lunch, but don't recall. There was a little weeping among some of the in-rez. LCM was proud that the staff member (a WC grad of several years, from memory) had "died with his boots on," ie, "in fellowship" and busy working at HQ (out on night patrol or something, body wasn't found for a while). I don't remember any public grieving of the sort that Full Circle mentioned in another thread.
I wonder how widely that death got reported? The obvious place was an obit in The Way Mag, but then it might have been construed as a "negative". In a smallish community like TWI, many would have known but who knows how widely the news would have been reported.
Come to think of it - did Caroline Rawlins' death make it into the Obits in the Way Mag (hint, hint, to anybody there reading this)?
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act2
[size="3"]I detest the Way International corporation more and more every day. Reading this makes me angry that I supported this corporation for 19 years with my money and my life. I am not perfect a
excathedra
my heartfelt condolences to bumpy and everyone close to this
love,ex
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Kit Sober
I am so thankful to the people who "were there" who tell what went on regarding things that good little followers such as I would never know for sure, but the sin and filth made for a situation that just didn't fit with the believer babble we were fed.
The Greasespot Cafe has been a forum for people who have been so very instrumental in helping me know the truth and it has helped my soul become so much more free.
Thankfully, very thankfully,
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ex10
I can't remember how to spell his last name. If anybody still has our graduating corps list (polar bear? Keynote? Cacoon chuckers?) it was be on there. But I it's Jan Henriksen.
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QuietThinker
I told you, Ex10, that I would update you as I have information, and I will. I've contact the Norwegian authorities, and while much information prior to 1990 is held on microfiche and in paper form, they have been very kind and will be sending a snail-mail packet to me.
When that arrives, I'll scan and copy what they send. As you know, my concern was not having enough information upon which to proceed and didn't want to waste time, but, your information was particularly helpful. Jan Henriksen is the name on record, and whether or not twi was referenced in particular, I have no information at present.
The only information I will receive is that which is considered public record. My Norwegian is not as strong as my Danish, but, a qualified translator will look over everything before I post it, just to be sure it's accurate.
Until then,
~QT
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doojable
I knew Jan. Actually, there were two Norwegians at HQ when I was there and if I'm not mistaken they were both named "Jan." They were translating various materials into Norwegian.
Sad, very sad.
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ex10
Thanks QT. I couldn't remember if I had spelled his name correctly.
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vickles
Jan, I knew Jan, well, I wonder if he was the one I knew. It doesn't seem possible that he would have killed someone but then ya never know.
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satori001
What would Jan's victims, if they could speak, want us to know?
Or would they prefer to be forgotten - just as if they'd never lived at all? Forgotten, as if never loved, as if never having been loved. As if their two lives amounted to nothing. Forgotten, as if nothing achieved, as if no priceless promise gone unfulfilled. Neither even ashes to ashes, nor dust to dust. Just dust. "Dust" that took itself far too seriously for a short while, before being made to remember its place. Dust must be swept away.
Is that how they should (not) be remembered? It happened so far away, and so long ago. Agree they never lived, and we won't need to consider what it means to have lived, and then to have been murdered by the ministry-appointed "man of God." So far away, so long ago. It's tiring to remember the dead. "Let the dead bury their dead," aren't we commanded to go and preach?
--
Of course, somebody must remember them. Relatives, siblings, their old friends? The ones we would count on too. Not "believers." Believers move on. Friendships, love, family, they endure. If the best you can do is "believe," then you'll be leaving. We can see right through you.
If they still survive, the aging parents must carry that grief, as fresh and bitter as the telephone call that gave them the inconceivable truth. (Should they have been spared the truth too, as we were?)
--
24 years ago...
"That bible teacher you've been hearing about, from your child, the bible teacher, the same bible teacher has unfortunately slain your child. You know, murdered? (Well, we don't know the whole story, but obviously he was really off the Word that day - old and new testaments. He was not in fellowship. Daddy's cookie jar was closed, and the "trap door" wide open.) But that isn't all. Both victims were born again. (Both, yes, there was another.) So it's okay, not senses-wise but spiritually. They'll be at the bema some day! It's too bad they didn't have more time to earn those rewards, but well... Believing is receiving, that's what they always told me.
"One other thing. You know of course the Way International, Inc, USA, as a 501c3 non-profit corporation [?], bears no liability, criminal or civil, in this matter, under all the pertinent laws and statutes. The murderer's association with The Way Ministry was purely coincidental, purely conjecture, and pure fabrication. They've never even heard of him. This is why they'll have some papers for you to sign.
"Do you hear that? The attorneys are knocking at the side door. Go answer it. Let them in. Offer them coffee and something to eat, and they will explain how it is. They have an envelope for you, to defray the costs. Take it. You'll need it. All you have to do is sign."
--
Sheep will return to eating as soon as they feel they are out of immediate danger. Not far off, one that was too slow, one of them, is ripped limb from limb. They study the grass, it fills their eyes, it fills their stomachs, and they hear only the sounds of their own chewing, their comrade's purchase and sacrifice unappreciated and already forgotten, except, for as long they feed upon him, by wolves.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Does anyone know the names of the victims?
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excathedra
tragic.... tears.....
just like the proud corps grad locked up in the mental hospital
just like my friend turned on to coke and more by her spiritual leader
just like art poling's daughter
just like that poor husband who committed suicide over martindale and his wife
just like rochelle weinberg
let's keep it quiet lest the precious ministry be blamed or sued
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act2
[size="3"]I detest the Way International corporation more and more every day. Reading this makes me angry that I supported this corporation for 19 years with my money and my life.
I am not perfect and have done many things wrong in my life, but I have confessed my sins to God and asked for forgiveness. I wonder if Jan has ever done that?
God bless the families of those murdered 'believers'.[/size]
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QuietThinker
I do not, Groucho.
I have no other information than what I've already posted--which is merely the details I've learned here that are the sum of recollections. Again, I await information from Norway.
If anyone else knows...? On that I have no information at all.
Respectfully,
QT
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Radar OReilly
One of the gals was in the (I)international 15th corps and her name was Irene. I can't remember her last name even though she was my roomie in residence. She was beautiful with white blonde hair and a perfect complexion. She was great friends with Gru Christiansen.
Any other (former) 13th or 15th corps out there remember her?
Radar
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likeaneagle
My apologies to those I may affended...this is truly a disaster.
OMG
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Bumpy
I have to respond to this man's heart so late here in Africa after reading so many times his response. Don't any of you see what he is saying? Please do not respond to me. But this person understands. I am tired of being attacked. Others have paid a much higher price for being involved in this game of twi. Whatever the police reports reveal, it's PRESS reports that are most important. Really, it's late at night for me now and I'm tired. But listen to his heart!
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waysider
Speaking only for myself, my main interest is in seeing what, if any, involvement the organization (ie: The Way) had in these events and subsequent events.
I don't mean to sound like I am defending TWI, but did this individual act soley on his own?
I mean, we have all heard of tragic incidents that have involved Postal workers, but they were acting as individuals.
Anyone know how the "ministry" factored into the events or legal proceedings?
Bolshevic--------If you are reading this post, perhaps it sheds some light on the "spiritual scanner" question.
Bumpy--------I have no intention of "attacking" you. In fact, let me say "thank you" for opening this line of discussion
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excathedra
amen and amen listen to satori
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Radar OReilly
Waysider,
Even TWI didn't endorse murder, even behind closed doors (and YES, I know what I am talking about, and YES, in this one statement, I know I am correct
)
One of the benefits of a thread like this is to expose TWI and it's inner workings in the following light:
Twi ROUTINELY put(s) it's followers at risk by putting immature, ill advised and improperly trained people in leadership positions.....from the bot/bod down to the twig/fellowship and wow family unit levels. As stated earlier in this thread, there was an early corps grad that murdered his parents, there were NUMEROUS corps grads that tragically commited suicide as well as this tragic situation in Norway (God knows how many situations were kept completely silent.)
For example, while in residence in 1983 I had been assigned to hitchhike from KS to HQ with another 13th corps person, he was "the guy," I was "the girl." During the early days of Waydale, I found out that before this guy and I went into the WC, he had murdered his wife with a shotgun after finding her in bed with another man. In the state he lived at the time (before he took pfal) had a "heat of passion" law on the books so he had done a VERY minimal amount of time in the pokey.
He eventually became a region coordinator
I was quite close to he and his wife, I worked in the twi trunk office....but learning that info makes my blood run like ice. He had a horrific temper and to this day, I can recall events that worry me about him having oversight of God's people, or ANY people for that matter. This topic is difficult, and it is uncomfortable........but it is something that needs to be brought back up periodically so that as each new generation of twi follower breaks free, and as each "innie" reads this thread.........they realize the type of organization they are / were a part of.
Radar
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excathedra
what is so sad how we can think of these things as "distant" or not a part of what we were involved in
i'm not explaining myself well
will try later
i apologize for this kind of denial
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satori001
Did The Way condone the commission of murder? That question hasn't been seriously asked, not here, anyway.
They need not sink to the level of approving murder to be found guilty of gross negligence, depraved indifference, to the lives of men and women who trusted their leadership as stewards of a Christian ministry.
As Radar points out, The Way had little taste for calculating or recognizing risks. Oh, I'm sure they took out proper insurance on the ministry's material assets, but people were cast like bread upon the waters, and whether they sank or swam was attributable only to their own "believing," and not the relative distance from shore or the possibility of sharks, and certainly not the decision that put them in harm's way.
Why is there no public memorial to the victims on TWI's grounds? There ought to be. A tribute of some kind, at the very least. But to name Jan H's victims would have led to the questions that might expose them, and they knew that. So they covered it up, like a corpse in a casket.
TWI means to keep the scandal hidden, but there's more to it. They truly see the victims as losers, failures, "cop outs." Certainly no glory to God. An embarrassment, really. After all, by TWI's 5th grade theology, it was their believing that allowed them to be murdered. In fact, TWI's official, corporate sympathy probably lies with Jan H, who never would have killed them had his (virtually) nameless and forgotten victims' believing been up to par. Poor Jan H. They tempted him with their unbelief. It wasn't his fault. That's how they think.
This would have been under Martindale's watch, would it not? (Nothing was Martindale's fault, either.) Wierwille was in decline, he died in '85. Somewhere around then he was dishing the "POOP" (passing of our patriarch) to the patron saint of toadies for posthumous release - it would be VP's last will and excrement, so to speak.
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TheInvisibleDan
But I do recall an episode described in one of those early CES Way-expose tapes - where leaders gathered about "St. Victoronius" actually discussed hiring a hitman to knock off some critic or opponent (or were they joking? I don't know) - which provoked a gruff reaction from the old Patriarch, who arose from his seat and hobbled out of the room.
Or something to that effect. Someone else here must have that tape.
Heard this back circ. '87.
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Twinky
I had wondered if the US Way didn't know of these murders because, well, not being Americans, it didn't really matter (not starting a fight here, but sometimes some Americans have limited knowledge of what's going on outside the USA (ducking for cover)).
But in fact it probably was more to do with the very limited permission to know anything outside TWI unless it boosted the image in the distorting mirror that made TWI seem bigger than it was.
Were at least the WC told at the time?
Looks like a tailor made teaching opportunity just got overlooked...
I remember in rez when a staff member died suddenly. The news was quite kindly broken to the in-rez WC by the BCs. I guess there was an announcement at lunch, but don't recall. There was a little weeping among some of the in-rez. LCM was proud that the staff member (a WC grad of several years, from memory) had "died with his boots on," ie, "in fellowship" and busy working at HQ (out on night patrol or something, body wasn't found for a while). I don't remember any public grieving of the sort that Full Circle mentioned in another thread.
I wonder how widely that death got reported? The obvious place was an obit in The Way Mag, but then it might have been construed as a "negative". In a smallish community like TWI, many would have known but who knows how widely the news would have been reported.
Come to think of it - did Caroline Rawlins' death make it into the Obits in the Way Mag (hint, hint, to anybody there reading this)?
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excathedra
no
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Twinky
No WC?? Does anybody know, was anybody told outside of the BoT?
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