I think some of the "biblical" expectations in marriage set people up for failure.
There is a small problem giving the power of mog to one of the parties..
what if the guy isn't QUALIFIED to make the decision in question? Ah, but he's sure he's right..
from what I've seen in practice, God doesn't just "bless" somebody for going along with it..
I don't know whether or not God blesses somebody for just going along with something they think is wrong, but sometimes you have to allow your husband (or wife) to learn from their mistakes if you can't talk him out of it.
Ephesians 5:33 Nevertheless each of you must also love his own wife even as himself; and let the wife see that she respects her husband.
This speaks to the individual. Each individual does their part. It's not my job to stand over my wife and decide whether or not she's carrying this out. And vica versa.
?
That's the exact point I was trying to get at. Thanks, Bolshevik.
BTW, how old is your son, and do you have other children?
After we were kicked out of FWC 20 we went to WA state and we were told I was not completely submissive enough and was not always without exception totally, absolutely, completely, completely absolutely totally COMPLETELY completely likeminded with my husband. Both of us had the same reaction: HUH? We always talked things over and made a mutual decision.
However, I am now scared to death to make a decision. My husband makes suggestions and I take them as God's Law, then he is shocked and somewhat defensive when I'm unhappy with the results. I honestly feel I place an undue and inappropriate burden on him. But I'm trying to do better. The reason for the minivacation thread on the open forum was to get ideas - he asked me to plan a minivacation and I just can't do it. What if I mess something up? It's something I deal with every day, like an addiction or something.
WG
Someone who was pretty wise once told me that there was a lot of freedom in the Bible, which I guess I used for an excuse whenever I thought I saw something in my marriage that didn't quite agree with TWI's version of what they thought my marriage shoud be. So what if I'm better at car mechanics than John is. It doesn't make me unfeminine in his book or him less masculine in mine. I wouldn't worry if you mess something up or not. Almost none of our family vacations turn out according to plan, and it's an open question who does more to mess them up; him or me. We've learned to stay flexible and change plans as need be. Last year I reserved a motel room that sounded really good on paper and when we got there it was grossly inadequate for our family. We found an ad in the newspaper for a one bedroom condo on the beach that only cost $10 more a night than the motel room. We ended up having a great time and are still laughing about it. The moral is: Don't worry about messing up so much, stay spontaneous and flexible, and have a good time.
Great topic JJ-What a bunch of crap we were put through.
Our marriage was headed the way of the Dodo when I finally woke up and said "let's get outta here". Twi had pitted us against each other. Especially when we started to question them. Wow the sparks flew. It was, you need to get on top of your wife (not that way).
Yet the marriages in top twi leadership were the worst examples I"ve ever seen, for the most part. And they were the ones who were telling you how to do it.
I now think, for God's sake why didn't I see it earlier. It has taken us time to sort through many things. But I must say our marriage is much better now (go figure).
(Yes, Watered Garden, I survived F20 too. Remember me?)
Tale #1
Bus Stop Fellowship was a seven-minute mandatory daily gathering of the kids at the Indiana Campus, as they waited for the school bus. There was a prayer, a song, and a short teaching. The adults took turns coordinating this week-by-week. One particular week, when we had this assignment, I found myself writing the teachings for my husband, because he had been over-scheduled with chicken-butchering, bless patrol, and other absurd duties, and literaly had not slept for days. He taught the teachings that I wrote for him, and then I taught other teachings that I wrote for myself. At the end of the week, MY teachings were harshly criticized, and I was told to go to my husband and ask him to show me how to put together a quality teaching, because HIS teachings were so good.
Tale #2
Our third child, then in high school, hated Family Corps and gradually became a very rebellious young man while we were in residence. I seriously don't think this would have happened, except that the rules and regs for teens were so outrageously strict there. My husband and I were called into Mosquito's office, where he boiled the whole situation down to one absolute truth: "If I, the wife, were obedient to my husband, then all of our children would be obedient to TWI leadership". My son, his dad, the Corps ... not one of these entities were to blame. Just me.
Tale #3
In one of those dreadful show-downs between leadership and a married couple at Gunnison, TWI wanted to keep the wife and kick out the husband. We knew this young couple, very newly married, very much in love. They had worked briefly at Rome City, and had won our hearts. This dynamic of splitting spouses was common then. This couple was not mature enough to fight the monsters, and so the husband was sent on his way, marked and avoided. A few years later, he met up with some other people who had also been kicked out. They told him they were so sorry for the loss of his wife. At first he thought they were referring to the divorce. But no, they were referring to her fatal accident. He still loved this woman deeply. And nobody had ever made contact to let him know she had died shortly after he left. He will never be the same.
It is beyond me why people still cling to this outfit. I'm so thankful to not in any way be associated with such despicable people. To take something as perfect and beautiful as marriage and poison it like this ... it's unforgivable.
I don't know whether or not God blesses somebody for just going along with something they think is wrong, but sometimes you have to allow your husband (or wife) to learn from their mistakes if you can't talk him out of it.
I still think mini-moghood is way to much power for an individual. I have only seen destruction result when it is invoked.
I think that it asks the other party to abandon if not their intellect, their individuality and self respect.
I think that it asks the other party to abandon if not their intellect, their individuality and self respect.
Amen Mr. Hamm!!!
It was humiliating and degrading, and it is something that followed us for nearly a decade after we left. I was incapable/not allowed to making a decision without his permission....and on the other hand...my husband received no balance or help from his partner.
He laments his lost *god hood* status when joking....when serious, he acknowledges that it is nicer to have a partner than being married to a bobble headed doll that just nods her head idiotically at every stupid thing that comes out of his mouth.
He says that he is glad that the spiritual/physically/mentally responsible for the entire well being of each and every member of our family no longer rests entirely on HIS shoulders........lol
Shifra, I wish that I had stood up for myself.
I was given to understand that with him being corpes, if I twitched one eye lash out of line, it would reflect on his spirituality.
It would forever cast doubt on his ability or leadership potential.
I never wanted him to suffer consequences for having loved and married me. I never wanted him to look bad because of me not doing every thing just right.
I have to admit - I did try really really hard for a while to be a good obedient submissive wife who does everything her husband says, but my husband would not have it.
He likes a good fight... probably one of the reasons I married him.
We got into a long discussion one night about why my personality had changed since we got married - why did I seem like such a wimp?
See, when we met, he pretty much decided almost immediately that I was going to be his wife... I told him he was full of it, and that basically, he didn't stand a chance in hell. He grew on me when I saw how he didn't allow people to push him around, but when he saw that he was wrong in a situation, he changed. He's a very good man... and he loved me even though I was a bitch to him at first. He liked that I didn't back down easily, either.
Anyway, why was I such a wimp? I told him that I thought I was supposed to be submissive and obey him. He said - "OK. Then obey this - I WANT you to DISAGREE with me. I command it as you husband!"
Ever since then we've been fine. We fight. We make up. We fight. We make up. It's all good... and as we get more and more used to each other, we fight less...
He likes independant smart women... For you Tolkien folks, I knew he was the guy for me when he thought Eowyn was the woman he would want out of the Lord of the Rings - not Arwen. He wanted the woman who would fight!
I have to admit - I did try really really hard for a while to be a good obedient submissive wife who does everything her husband says, but my husband would not have it.
He likes a good fight... probably one of the reasons I married him.
We got into a long discussion one night about why my personality had changed since we got married - why did I seem like such a wimp?
See, when we met, he pretty much decided almost immediately that I was going to be his wife... I told him he was full of it, and that basically, he didn't stand a chance in hell. He grew on me when I saw how he didn't allow people to push him around, but when he saw that he was wrong in a situation, he changed. He's a very good man... and he loved me even though I was a bitch to him at first. He liked that I didn't back down easily, either.
Anyway, why was I such a wimp? I told him that I thought I was supposed to be submissive and obey him. He said - "OK. Then obey this - I WANT you to DISAGREE with me. I command it as you husband!"
Ever since then we've been fine. We fight. We make up. We fight. We make up. It's all good... and as we get more and more used to each other, we fight less...
He likes independant smart women... For you Tolkien folks, I knew he was the guy for me when he thought Eowyn was the woman he would want out of the Lord of the Rings - not Arwen. He wanted the woman who would fight!
JavaJane - That's how my current husband is - he says I'm a B.A. and threatens people with me if he runs into a snag with something - like a customer service issue - "Don't make me put my wife on the phone with you!" He loves it that I'm a scrapper and supports me and my interests...
I think the big thing now for me is seeing how I'm so much truer to myself now than I ever was before. I have a business, hobbies, and do things without him - and don't have to ask permission or submit a schedule first. I just do it - and he's totally cool with it. I joke that we're more like roommates sometimes than husband and wife - but it works for us.
Maybe that's what it's really all about - you're happier when you figure out what works for you and stop trying to live up the standards others set for you or your marriage...
Some of those WC who thought they were hot poop on a paper plate in the marriage department have marriages that have gone down the crapper - Donna & LCM, anyone?
I still think mini-moghood is way to much power for an individual. I have only seen destruction result when it is invoked.
I think that it asks the other party to abandon if not their intellect, their individuality and self respect.
I wasn't implying that I don't tell John when I think he's wrong. I do (sometimes at great length). Sometimes he changes his mind and comes to agree with me; sometimes I change my mind and come to agree with him, and sometimes one or the other throws up our hands in disgust and says 'Okay, learn from your mistakes then". It very rarely comes down to John saying 'I'm the head of this family and we're going to do it my way'. I think John (or any other husband) is obligated to LISTEN to his wife's point of view. I don't think he's obligated to agree with her every time, and on those occasions there needs to be a person to act as tie-breaker.
quote: To take something as perfect and beautiful as marriage and poison it like this ... it's unforgivable.
I think it's an 'inalienable right' of both spouses to protect their marriage from outside predators. We left twi because they tried to split us apart.
Ironic about Donna M. I remember roa '81; during one afternoon she taught about what it is to be a woman believer and she actually addressed some of the stuff said on this thread. She said she had seen women who, when single, were dynamic, bold, enthusiastic about life, etc. but after they married, they lost their fizz and became like Stepford wives or non persons, as stated on this thread. DM was not happy about this; said it was wrong.
Remember the movie 'Footloose'? John Lithgow played a minister who used his influence in the small town he lived in to get a law passed that outlawed dances. Years earlier a fatality occurred which was blamed on a school dance. As the movie progresses it becomes clear that this minister is stuck in a rut. He says the same "profound" things to every group of people he talks to, his own daughter is mentally unstable, and he bullheadedly can't see his way out of a paper bag. All this time his wife says nothing.
Finally, the kids, led by Kevin Bacon's character, find a place to have a dance that's not subject to the aforementioned law. For a time the minister is frantic, but then his wife softly reminds him of their youth. She doesn't say a whole lot. So the minister got together with his congragation and prayed for God to give the kids the wisdom to not let the dance get out of control, or something. His wife kept it inside all that time because she had to wait until he was ready to hear her.
Not the solution for every situation, but worthy of consideration.
Yeah, that is a made up story...to bad life isn`t as clean and nice as a hollywood movie. We are talking real life of trying to live rediculous standards imposed on us by lunatics. The little woman sitting by quietly biding waiting for the right time for our Godly man to be in the right frame of mind to hear us didn`t save very many of our marriages.
That didn`t help the wives and children of the alcoholics or the bullies who simply enjoyed throwing their weight around.
There isn`t any minister getting an epiphany in our story to make it all right in the end.
I don`t think you could possibly understand the ignominy of having to completely disregard yourself, your insight, your intelligence .... yes even your spiritual awareness...to stand by helplessly while a spouse with the twi given (notice I don`t say God given) right to make stupid decision after stupid decision that negatively impacted you and your children.
To have NO say so, when you knew that they were dead wrong, or their judgement clouded by alcohol or arrogance, their abuse biblically acceptable, according to twi doctrines.
To have the only recourse of a virtuous woman be considered prayer, placation, and quiet acceptance of the inevitable consequences was very cruel.
It was so bad that I once told my husband I`d rather my girls didn`t marry a christian if it meant giving up their identity and freedom of will.
Course I can understand now that my understanding of a Christian man and woman and marriage was at that time completely
Ironic about Donna M. I remember roa '81; during one afternoon she taught about what it is to be a woman believer and she actually addressed some of the stuff said on this thread. She said she had seen women who, when single, were dynamic, bold, enthusiastic about life, etc. but after they married, they lost their fizz and became like Stepford wives or non persons, as stated on this thread. DM was not happy about this; said it was wrong.
What an example of how what was preached was not practiced!
The moment when I knew something was really wrong in this category was when I had done a very hot teaching about loving God - so hot that people after fellowship didn't get up for a while because we were all talking about the teaching with smiles (real ones) on their faces - I got pulled aside moments later and told that I needed to get some help on my teaching skills, because I really came across as being bossy.
What response are you supposed to have for something like this? People were blessed, excited, and happy. I did my job. I did not teach something that was wrong doctrine (I did ask) - nope, my "tone" wasn't submissive enough.
Well... There's how "women who, when single, were dynamic, bold, enthusiastic about life, etc. but after they married, they lost their fizz and became like Stepford wives or non persons" - they get beat down and conditioned to respond like Stepford wives.
Don't get excited about God or His Word and show it - and God help you as a woman if you can get a spark out of a room full of people who have been bored out of their minds for weeks on end!
Maybe that's what it's really all about - you're happier when you figure out what works for you and stop trying to live up the standards others set for you or your marriage...
I wasn't implying that I don't tell John when I think he's wrong. I do (sometimes at great length). Sometimes he changes his mind and comes to agree with me; sometimes I change my mind and come to agree with him, and sometimes one or the other throws up our hands in disgust and says 'Okay, learn from your mistakes then". It very rarely comes down to John saying 'I'm the head of this family and we're going to do it my way'. I think John (or any other husband) is obligated to LISTEN to his wife's point of view. I don't think he's obligated to agree with her every time, and on those occasions there needs to be a person to act as tie-breaker.
I bet he NEVER really pulled out the wild card..
I have seen other guys do it.. "by God, we're gonna do it THIS way.."
Call me weak, or whatever.. I couldn't do it.
I think some decisions are really not that important. Why even make one? Sometimes a "non decision" is the real answer..
I have seen other guys do it.. "by God, we're gonna do it THIS way.."
Call me weak, or whatever.. I couldn't do it.
I think some decisions are really not that important. Why even make one? Sometimes a "non decision" is the real answer..
:)
Oh, once or twice, but on those occasions his decisions turned out to be the right thing to do, and it became obvious that he was fulfilling his duty to look out for his family to the best of his ability, not just being an arbitrary jerk. I learned a lot about trusting his judgment on those occasions.
Ladies and Gentlemen...My heart goes out to you. I was never married while in TWI. With all that you have said here, I am really glad that I wasn't. I managed to get myself into enough pickles because of my "attitude" I cannot imagine how fast they would have started the fire under the vat of boiling oil if they had actually expected me to "submit" to anyone! Ha! I can see that happening in my lifetime...NOT!
God Bless all your beautiful hearts for putting up with such cr@p.
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Jeaniam
I don't know whether or not God blesses somebody for just going along with something they think is wrong, but sometimes you have to allow your husband (or wife) to learn from their mistakes if you can't talk him out of it.
That's the exact point I was trying to get at. Thanks, Bolshevik.
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Jeaniam
Someone who was pretty wise once told me that there was a lot of freedom in the Bible, which I guess I used for an excuse whenever I thought I saw something in my marriage that didn't quite agree with TWI's version of what they thought my marriage shoud be. So what if I'm better at car mechanics than John is. It doesn't make me unfeminine in his book or him less masculine in mine. I wouldn't worry if you mess something up or not. Almost none of our family vacations turn out according to plan, and it's an open question who does more to mess them up; him or me. We've learned to stay flexible and change plans as need be. Last year I reserved a motel room that sounded really good on paper and when we got there it was grossly inadequate for our family. We found an ad in the newspaper for a one bedroom condo on the beach that only cost $10 more a night than the motel room. We ended up having a great time and are still laughing about it. The moral is: Don't worry about messing up so much, stay spontaneous and flexible, and have a good time.
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polar bear
Great topic JJ-What a bunch of crap we were put through.
Our marriage was headed the way of the Dodo when I finally woke up and said "let's get outta here". Twi had pitted us against each other. Especially when we started to question them. Wow the sparks flew. It was, you need to get on top of your wife (not that way).
Yet the marriages in top twi leadership were the worst examples I"ve ever seen, for the most part. And they were the ones who were telling you how to do it.
I now think, for God's sake why didn't I see it earlier. It has taken us time to sort through many things. But I must say our marriage is much better now (go figure).
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WordWolf
This really wasn't so much a "it's the product of the times" or "it's the product of the locals",
as we've already seen.
This was probably more a vpw-specific thing.
All accounts of Old Man Wierwille was that he was a tyrant who kept his boot on his
family's neck. (vpw rebelled by hiding in the forest and shirking his chores, but never went
to his face and risked a beatdown.) He also was rough with anyone OUTSIDE his family
who he disagreed with.
Now, how did vpw view this?
Did he say "I saw this didn't work-I shall be more human with MY family, MY loved ones,
the people I interact with"?
No- he adopted this as his own Modus Operandi.
"He was a mean man."- one of his loved ones at his funeral.
vpw's view of women-by his own words- was deriding and belittling.
vpw, pg-198, TW:LiL...
"'Women never tell the truth.'"
"There aren't going to be any women around when I get the holy spirit.'"
"..turned to his wife and said, 'Honey, I'm going with VP.' She said something to him like, 'How long will you be?'
And he said, 'That's none of your business.' That was it,
and my opinion of him as a man went up 99 percent.
His stature increased in my eyes. just from the way he handled her."
I don't know how wide-spread this kind of thing was at the time.
I don't know how wide-spread this kind of thing is now.
I DO know it's unScriptural, and was wrong THEN, and wrong NOW,
and will continue to be wrong.
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Shifra
Here's a few tales from Family Corps Training.
(Yes, Watered Garden, I survived F20 too. Remember me?)
Tale #1
Bus Stop Fellowship was a seven-minute mandatory daily gathering of the kids at the Indiana Campus, as they waited for the school bus. There was a prayer, a song, and a short teaching. The adults took turns coordinating this week-by-week. One particular week, when we had this assignment, I found myself writing the teachings for my husband, because he had been over-scheduled with chicken-butchering, bless patrol, and other absurd duties, and literaly had not slept for days. He taught the teachings that I wrote for him, and then I taught other teachings that I wrote for myself. At the end of the week, MY teachings were harshly criticized, and I was told to go to my husband and ask him to show me how to put together a quality teaching, because HIS teachings were so good.
Tale #2
Our third child, then in high school, hated Family Corps and gradually became a very rebellious young man while we were in residence. I seriously don't think this would have happened, except that the rules and regs for teens were so outrageously strict there. My husband and I were called into Mosquito's office, where he boiled the whole situation down to one absolute truth: "If I, the wife, were obedient to my husband, then all of our children would be obedient to TWI leadership". My son, his dad, the Corps ... not one of these entities were to blame. Just me.
Tale #3
In one of those dreadful show-downs between leadership and a married couple at Gunnison, TWI wanted to keep the wife and kick out the husband. We knew this young couple, very newly married, very much in love. They had worked briefly at Rome City, and had won our hearts. This dynamic of splitting spouses was common then. This couple was not mature enough to fight the monsters, and so the husband was sent on his way, marked and avoided. A few years later, he met up with some other people who had also been kicked out. They told him they were so sorry for the loss of his wife. At first he thought they were referring to the divorce. But no, they were referring to her fatal accident. He still loved this woman deeply. And nobody had ever made contact to let him know she had died shortly after he left. He will never be the same.
It is beyond me why people still cling to this outfit. I'm so thankful to not in any way be associated with such despicable people. To take something as perfect and beautiful as marriage and poison it like this ... it's unforgivable.
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coolchef
this thread only expounds just how muchTWI sucked and still sucks
cruel heartless bastards and bitches
there i said it!
the most holy rev. dans armweak {stong} was very instaramentel causing the divorce of the mother of my children and me
any know what happened to the low life bastard?
am i bitter?
YES
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Ham
I still think mini-moghood is way to much power for an individual. I have only seen destruction result when it is invoked.
I think that it asks the other party to abandon if not their intellect, their individuality and self respect.
Edited by Mr. HammeroniLink to comment
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rascal
Amen Mr. Hamm!!!
It was humiliating and degrading, and it is something that followed us for nearly a decade after we left. I was incapable/not allowed to making a decision without his permission....and on the other hand...my husband received no balance or help from his partner.
He laments his lost *god hood* status when joking....when serious, he acknowledges that it is nicer to have a partner than being married to a bobble headed doll that just nods her head idiotically at every stupid thing that comes out of his mouth.
He says that he is glad that the spiritual/physically/mentally responsible for the entire well being of each and every member of our family no longer rests entirely on HIS shoulders........lol
Shifra, I wish that I had stood up for myself.
I was given to understand that with him being corpes, if I twitched one eye lash out of line, it would reflect on his spirituality.
It would forever cast doubt on his ability or leadership potential.
I never wanted him to suffer consequences for having loved and married me. I never wanted him to look bad because of me not doing every thing just right.
I was terrified of bringing shame to him.
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JavaJane
I have to admit - I did try really really hard for a while to be a good obedient submissive wife who does everything her husband says, but my husband would not have it.
He likes a good fight... probably one of the reasons I married him.
We got into a long discussion one night about why my personality had changed since we got married - why did I seem like such a wimp?
See, when we met, he pretty much decided almost immediately that I was going to be his wife... I told him he was full of it, and that basically, he didn't stand a chance in hell. He grew on me when I saw how he didn't allow people to push him around, but when he saw that he was wrong in a situation, he changed. He's a very good man... and he loved me even though I was a bitch to him at first. He liked that I didn't back down easily, either.
Anyway, why was I such a wimp? I told him that I thought I was supposed to be submissive and obey him. He said - "OK. Then obey this - I WANT you to DISAGREE with me. I command it as you husband!"
Ever since then we've been fine. We fight. We make up. We fight. We make up. It's all good... and as we get more and more used to each other, we fight less...
He likes independant smart women... For you Tolkien folks, I knew he was the guy for me when he thought Eowyn was the woman he would want out of the Lord of the Rings - not Arwen. He wanted the woman who would fight!
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ChasUFarley
JavaJane - That's how my current husband is - he says I'm a B.A. and threatens people with me if he runs into a snag with something - like a customer service issue - "Don't make me put my wife on the phone with you!" He loves it that I'm a scrapper and supports me and my interests...
I think the big thing now for me is seeing how I'm so much truer to myself now than I ever was before. I have a business, hobbies, and do things without him - and don't have to ask permission or submit a schedule first. I just do it - and he's totally cool with it. I joke that we're more like roommates sometimes than husband and wife - but it works for us.
Maybe that's what it's really all about - you're happier when you figure out what works for you and stop trying to live up the standards others set for you or your marriage...
Some of those WC who thought they were hot poop on a paper plate in the marriage department have marriages that have gone down the crapper - Donna & LCM, anyone?
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waysider
"Hot poop on a paper plate"
That's right up there with ChattyKathy's "Poop on a stick".
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Jeaniam
I wasn't implying that I don't tell John when I think he's wrong. I do (sometimes at great length). Sometimes he changes his mind and comes to agree with me; sometimes I change my mind and come to agree with him, and sometimes one or the other throws up our hands in disgust and says 'Okay, learn from your mistakes then". It very rarely comes down to John saying 'I'm the head of this family and we're going to do it my way'. I think John (or any other husband) is obligated to LISTEN to his wife's point of view. I don't think he's obligated to agree with her every time, and on those occasions there needs to be a person to act as tie-breaker.
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johniam
quote: To take something as perfect and beautiful as marriage and poison it like this ... it's unforgivable.
I think it's an 'inalienable right' of both spouses to protect their marriage from outside predators. We left twi because they tried to split us apart.
Ironic about Donna M. I remember roa '81; during one afternoon she taught about what it is to be a woman believer and she actually addressed some of the stuff said on this thread. She said she had seen women who, when single, were dynamic, bold, enthusiastic about life, etc. but after they married, they lost their fizz and became like Stepford wives or non persons, as stated on this thread. DM was not happy about this; said it was wrong.
Remember the movie 'Footloose'? John Lithgow played a minister who used his influence in the small town he lived in to get a law passed that outlawed dances. Years earlier a fatality occurred which was blamed on a school dance. As the movie progresses it becomes clear that this minister is stuck in a rut. He says the same "profound" things to every group of people he talks to, his own daughter is mentally unstable, and he bullheadedly can't see his way out of a paper bag. All this time his wife says nothing.
Finally, the kids, led by Kevin Bacon's character, find a place to have a dance that's not subject to the aforementioned law. For a time the minister is frantic, but then his wife softly reminds him of their youth. She doesn't say a whole lot. So the minister got together with his congragation and prayed for God to give the kids the wisdom to not let the dance get out of control, or something. His wife kept it inside all that time because she had to wait until he was ready to hear her.
Not the solution for every situation, but worthy of consideration.
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rascal
Yeah, that is a made up story...to bad life isn`t as clean and nice as a hollywood movie. We are talking real life of trying to live rediculous standards imposed on us by lunatics. The little woman sitting by quietly biding waiting for the right time for our Godly man to be in the right frame of mind to hear us didn`t save very many of our marriages.
That didn`t help the wives and children of the alcoholics or the bullies who simply enjoyed throwing their weight around.
There isn`t any minister getting an epiphany in our story to make it all right in the end.
I don`t think you could possibly understand the ignominy of having to completely disregard yourself, your insight, your intelligence .... yes even your spiritual awareness...to stand by helplessly while a spouse with the twi given (notice I don`t say God given) right to make stupid decision after stupid decision that negatively impacted you and your children.
To have NO say so, when you knew that they were dead wrong, or their judgement clouded by alcohol or arrogance, their abuse biblically acceptable, according to twi doctrines.
To have the only recourse of a virtuous woman be considered prayer, placation, and quiet acceptance of the inevitable consequences was very cruel.
It was so bad that I once told my husband I`d rather my girls didn`t marry a christian if it meant giving up their identity and freedom of will.
Course I can understand now that my understanding of a Christian man and woman and marriage was at that time completely
warped by the insanity of twi.
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JavaJane
What an example of how what was preached was not practiced!
The moment when I knew something was really wrong in this category was when I had done a very hot teaching about loving God - so hot that people after fellowship didn't get up for a while because we were all talking about the teaching with smiles (real ones) on their faces - I got pulled aside moments later and told that I needed to get some help on my teaching skills, because I really came across as being bossy.
What response are you supposed to have for something like this? People were blessed, excited, and happy. I did my job. I did not teach something that was wrong doctrine (I did ask) - nope, my "tone" wasn't submissive enough.
Well... There's how "women who, when single, were dynamic, bold, enthusiastic about life, etc. but after they married, they lost their fizz and became like Stepford wives or non persons" - they get beat down and conditioned to respond like Stepford wives.
Don't get excited about God or His Word and show it - and God help you as a woman if you can get a spark out of a room full of people who have been bored out of their minds for weeks on end!
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doojable
There certainly was a double standard. It's almost painful to go back to those memories.
"Be strong in the Lord! Be a Godly woman!"
"You're too agressive! You intimidate people."
The revolving door got to be too much. I finally just walked through and never looked back.
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JavaJane
Yeah... I know the feeling.
"Don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya!"
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doojable
If Momma ain't happy, ain't no one happy! ;)
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GrouchoMarxJr
Well said Chas...Well said.
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Ham
I bet he NEVER really pulled out the wild card..
I have seen other guys do it.. "by God, we're gonna do it THIS way.."
Call me weak, or whatever.. I couldn't do it.
I think some decisions are really not that important. Why even make one? Sometimes a "non decision" is the real answer..
:)
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ChasUFarley
So, squirrel... are you saying she has you by the nuts? :)
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doojable
NO - she got those stored in her cheeks.....;)
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Jeaniam
Oh, once or twice, but on those occasions his decisions turned out to be the right thing to do, and it became obvious that he was fulfilling his duty to look out for his family to the best of his ability, not just being an arbitrary jerk. I learned a lot about trusting his judgment on those occasions.
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Eyesopen
Ladies and Gentlemen...My heart goes out to you. I was never married while in TWI. With all that you have said here, I am really glad that I wasn't. I managed to get myself into enough pickles because of my "attitude" I cannot imagine how fast they would have started the fire under the vat of boiling oil if they had actually expected me to "submit" to anyone! Ha! I can see that happening in my lifetime...NOT!
God Bless all your beautiful hearts for putting up with such cr@p.
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