I don't know what they expected out of simple, normal human beings..
I think God gave us a memory for a few good reasons.
The attitude is also tinged with arrogance – assuming people who review experiences have such a lowly status and recommend they move on to another level.
Maybe the person criticizing has a lot of hurt and pain from having to deal with similar memories. Maybe the one recommending moving on is the one who has not "moved on" like they thought they have..
The worst "just move along" fellows seem to be SOME ex-clergy in SOME offshoots.
Yeah, the teaching was related to "remember Lot's wife" who looked back and turned into a pillar of salt.
Teaching people to forget the past is a great way to leave them open to not just a single instance of abuse, but REPEATED instances of abuse. Afterall, if we were to forget the past, then the fact that this person once lied to you, hit you, raped you, whatever, well it no longer counts because it was in the past, right? So if they do it again, you can't say there's a pattern because there is no past.
So what if the person TWI is asking you to entrust your children with was once a pedophile, that's in his/her PAST, so we can't dwell on that!
So what if TWI is now teaching something that contradicts what you heard two weeks ago, that's in the PAST!
And yes, it does prevent us from learning from our mistakes, from growing, from gaining wisdom.
Certainly, one can become so obsessed with dwelling on their past that they get stuck there and never move forward. But it is healthy to look at what has occured in the past with a view toward learning and growing from it, and then moving foward with wisdom gained.
lol. Something along this line was in the Lion King. My memory is vague. One whacks another on the head. The other objects. The first responds, "Forget it. It's in the past."
i'm not saying i agree, but it's not like there's no biblical precedent. the first thing i thought of (and i've forgotten more about the bible than i ever knew) was Philippians 3: 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing , forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
lol. Something along this line was in the Lion King. My memory is vague. One whacks another on the head. The other objects. The first responds, "Forget it. It's in the past."
Simba: Going back means I'll have to face my past. I've been hiding from it for so long...
(Rafiki whacks Simba on the head with his stick)
Simba: OW! Geez, what was that for?!
Rafiki: It doesn't matter! It's in the past! [chuckles]
Simba: Yeah, but it still hurts.
Rafiki: Oh, yes, the past can hurt. But the way I see it, you can either run from it, or... learn from it.
(Rafiki swings his stick, but Simba ducks)
Rafiki: Aha! You see? So what are you going to do?
Phil 3:13. Check out the context. The past he is referring to is specific, not general. Along the lines of live for today because sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. Can’t control the past. That concept is again something added to the context. It is true in a sense, but it doesn’t mean you can’t learn from it. Just another way to compartmentalize and not think. One of those little mental boxes. Yeah I skrewed up yesterday, now I’m going to ignore it. Not dealing with things on the basis of it’s in the past is a lifestyle of either denial or sweeping things under the rug. Sweeping things under the rug has a way of coming back to bite you later. I’d rather live in the present with the wisdom I’ve gained from the past, alert to things from my past adversely affecting my present. Sometimes I look to the past to refine my present and improve it. I think it is taking responsibility for my own actions as best I can.
LCM used to teach you don’t learn from doing things wrong, you learn from doing things right. I beg to differ. If you don’t recognize and understand the wrong, how do you recognize fully the right? I think both are needed.
Who was it that said, "Those who refuse to learn from the past are destined to repeat it"?
George Santayana.
"He is perhaps best known for the oft-misquoted remark, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it," from Reason in Common Sense, the first volume of his The Life of Reason."
yeah i was just reading some stuff about that..... you can't live your life in reverse, that kind of thing
i was just thinking it doesn't say forgetting all things, wipe out your memory :)
.
.
.
kind of a cool translation follows:
I'm not saying that I have this all together, that I have it made. But I am well on my way, reaching out for Christ, who has so wondrously reached out for me. Friends, don't get me wrong: By no means do I count myself an expert in all of this, but I've got my eye on the goal, where God is beckoning us onward—to Jesus. I'm off and running, and I'm not turning back.
i'm not saying i agree, but it's not like there's no biblical precedent. the first thing i thought of (and i've forgotten more about the bible than i ever knew) was Philippians 3: 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing , forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
isn't that saying "don't dwell on the past?"
Maybe.......some of us (me too -- at times) are stuck in black/white thinking? I don't see anything in those verses about DWELLING ON THE PAST......I might just have to look into that word "forgetting" a little closer. Seems more like "moving away from the things in the past" and REACHING FORTH....
BESIDES.........How many times does God bring into remembrance Moses and THE Exodus out of Egypt? IIRC its like 40 times (lots!)..??? Yeah.....REMEMBER Moses, the Pharoah, the taskmasters, the toil, the grievances, the Red sea, and GOD'S DELIVERANCE OF HIS PEOPLE..!!!!!
Hmmmmm......Am I "dwelling on the past" when I come to Greasespot about 4 hours a week to talk about twi and help undo the heavy burdens???
Or..................Am I "visiting some past experiences" to understand how I was deceived and the manner in which I was deceived and, in turn, help others?? Gee.....I've gone WEEKS without posting on GS and rarily gave twi a second thought. Not quite sure I'd call that DWELLING..??
It seems to me that we can learn from our mistakes of the past without dwelling on them to an unhealthy extent. After all, we can't change the mistakes of yesterday, nor can we change the mistakes of tomorrow; all that is directly under our control is today, and specifically now, this minute. I made a serious mistake with my son two days ago that hurt his heart. I walked into an argument halfway through and jumped to the erroneous conclusion that he was at fault. I cannot change what happened, but I can, and should, learn from it, while moving on.
For me it's simple. Maybe I simplify it too much but I like to live in the present. I enjoy looking back at memories and learning from my past experiences. If you haven't lived through it you can't learn from it. And what good are memories if we are not supposed to think back on them and learn from them. God gave us a brain and the ability to remember. So use it. But I don't believe in dwelling on it so much that your forget you living in present day not the past.
Someone once said it is ok to occasionally look back but never get caught staring.
I am not the same person I was 10, 20 or 30 years ago, and were I to run into someone from back then, we might share a few laughs reminiscing, but I would want them to take me for the person I am NOW and not the person I was then.
Well I used the words *dwelling on the past* because many times, that teaching is used as an excuse to pretend that the past doesn`t matter...
We were trained to ignore the past ... using this catch phrase to condition ourselves to push these things from our minds....people are uncomfortable when we examine the activities of the minitry and it`s leaders....
I think that in light of what we now know, that it is in the consideration of our past difficulties, we can grow and learn.
LOL...my personal mantra for some time now has been to endeavor to avoid making the mistakes today that I will be kicking myself for in 5 years...:)
Jonny, did you read tbones post that I pasted?
I wonder...is not the bible and Jesus, and all he taught in the past? Are these past events not relevent to our present lives? will the accounts of people rising and falling in God`s grace not aid us in our future choices and decisions??? Are they not relevent to dwell on?
I think that we can learn from our past, how to be sharper in the future.
Great topic. I agree there is a difference between dwelling and reflecting on the past.
Paul in Phil 3 was referring to his ability to not be hindered by his wretched past. He never said he didn't think about it.I like what someone said about our memory-if God didn't want us to remember the past we wouldn't have one.
I think the big thing we were conned into thinking by twi was to forget everything in the past as a blanket statement for getting out of taking responsibility for our actions. It was an easy way out. Just renew your mind and forget about it. Rather than thinking through situations and figuring out an honest way to work out an answere to a problem.
God good , we may have realized that we were in a cult and our leadership could be wrong at times.
Great topic. I agree there is a difference between dwelling and reflecting on the past.
Paul in Phil 3 was referring to his ability to not be hindered by his wretched past. He never said he didn't think about it.I like what someone said about our memory-if God didn't want us to remember the past we wouldn't have one.
I think the big thing we were conned into thinking by twi was to forget everything in the past as a blanket statement for getting out of taking responsibility for our actions. It was an easy way out. Just renew your mind and forget about it. Rather than thinking through situations and figuring out an honest way to work out an answere to a problem. ...
Great point, Polar Bear – that’s my take on Paul in Philippians 3 also!... In TWI, I got it mixed up so many times: ignoring things in my past that were within my control, that would have made a difference if I responded this way or that - while believing I had power over things beyond my control…just spinning my wheels…I like what Another Spot said on the Spiritual Abuse thread: Your experiences don’t define you – but your response to them does…In Philippians 3, I see that Paul didn’t let his past control him – his response to Christ changed his focus.
Exactly polar Bear...I think that is what chaps my bu tt ...is that this whole idea eliminates the need for repentance and the required seeking of forgivness and making restitution and amends where ever possible...
Ever so much easier to blow it all off and accuse those whom have been wronged of dwelling in the past. It helps the one who did the wronging to ignore responsibility.
If we don`t look and consider the implications of the past...how the heck are we going to figure out where it all went wrong, why, and most importantly how to prevent it from ocuring again?
In my opinion, one of the most beneficial functions of the mind - reflection - was discouraged in PFAL and of course in TWI. There’s something about the mindset of PFAL that gets people to sever their connection with reality – TWI folks don’t like to dwell on the past…thoughts that tend toward introspection are suppressed.
What is the practical consequence of such a mindset? It doesn’t see any relation between past thoughts/actions and current conditions. Adrift toward some future – awash in confusing details of past and present…It is shallow thinking – incapable of mining personal history for self-improvement, for lessons learned, for understanding how we got where we are now, the direction we’re likely to head, and what adjustments we need to make in our course heading. It breeds impatience – demanding that those who reflect should move on. The attitude is also tinged with arrogance – assuming people who review experiences have such a lowly status and recommend they move on to another level.
I also appreciated TBone's post on the other thread. Paul's "forgetting those things which are behind" cannot mean that he truly forgot, nor failed to reflect on his past, especially his former persecution of the Church, which he cites as the reason he was "least of the apostles." That is in 1Corinthians. Interestingly, as time went on, it appears that his humility increases. In one of the prison epistles (written later) (Eph 3) he writes:
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ
Then at the end of his writings, if not his life, he has this to say:
1Tim1:12ff: And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
From "least of the apostles" to "LESS than the LEAST of all saints" to "chief sinner"!
Rascal points out that the reflection TBone speaks about is necessary for proper repentance. This goes back to the idea of "sin consciousness" that was so promoted by the Way. We cited Romans 8:1, but our consciences were not purged from sin, truly, by the sacrifice of Christ, but by "forgetting" about them!
Another good point was made, namely, that Paul's relation to his past (his laurels as well as his shame) did not get in the way of his action to "press toward the mark," his affirmative action, which I also think is his point in the Phillipians quote.
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, [what] clearing of yourselves, yea, [what] indignation, yea, [what] fear, yea, [what] vehement desire, yea, [what] zeal, yea, [what] revenge! In all [things] ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
"Sin consciousness" per se, is a good thing. Having our consciences purified by the blood of Christ, is likewise good.
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of [our] faith without wavering; (for he [is] faithful that promised;)
Recommended Posts
cinderpelt
Exactly, Rascal~
Who was it that said, "Those who refuse to learn from the past are destined to repeat it"?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
I don't know what they expected out of simple, normal human beings..
I think God gave us a memory for a few good reasons.
Maybe the person criticizing has a lot of hurt and pain from having to deal with similar memories. Maybe the one recommending moving on is the one who has not "moved on" like they thought they have..
The worst "just move along" fellows seem to be SOME ex-clergy in SOME offshoots.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
Yeah, the teaching was related to "remember Lot's wife" who looked back and turned into a pillar of salt.
Teaching people to forget the past is a great way to leave them open to not just a single instance of abuse, but REPEATED instances of abuse. Afterall, if we were to forget the past, then the fact that this person once lied to you, hit you, raped you, whatever, well it no longer counts because it was in the past, right? So if they do it again, you can't say there's a pattern because there is no past.
So what if the person TWI is asking you to entrust your children with was once a pedophile, that's in his/her PAST, so we can't dwell on that!
So what if TWI is now teaching something that contradicts what you heard two weeks ago, that's in the PAST!
And yes, it does prevent us from learning from our mistakes, from growing, from gaining wisdom.
Certainly, one can become so obsessed with dwelling on their past that they get stuck there and never move forward. But it is healthy to look at what has occured in the past with a view toward learning and growing from it, and then moving foward with wisdom gained.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
another spot
lol. Something along this line was in the Lion King. My memory is vague. One whacks another on the head. The other objects. The first responds, "Forget it. It's in the past."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
sprawled out
i'm not saying i agree, but it's not like there's no biblical precedent. the first thing i thought of (and i've forgotten more about the bible than i ever knew) was Philippians 3: 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing , forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
isn't that saying "don't dwell on the past?"
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Simba: Going back means I'll have to face my past. I've been hiding from it for so long...
(Rafiki whacks Simba on the head with his stick)
Simba: OW! Geez, what was that for?!
Rafiki: It doesn't matter! It's in the past! [chuckles]
Simba: Yeah, but it still hurts.
Rafiki: Oh, yes, the past can hurt. But the way I see it, you can either run from it, or... learn from it.
(Rafiki swings his stick, but Simba ducks)
Rafiki: Aha! You see? So what are you going to do?
Simba: Well first, I'm gonna take your stick.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
another spot
Phil 3:13. Check out the context. The past he is referring to is specific, not general. Along the lines of live for today because sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. Can’t control the past. That concept is again something added to the context. It is true in a sense, but it doesn’t mean you can’t learn from it. Just another way to compartmentalize and not think. One of those little mental boxes. Yeah I skrewed up yesterday, now I’m going to ignore it. Not dealing with things on the basis of it’s in the past is a lifestyle of either denial or sweeping things under the rug. Sweeping things under the rug has a way of coming back to bite you later. I’d rather live in the present with the wisdom I’ve gained from the past, alert to things from my past adversely affecting my present. Sometimes I look to the past to refine my present and improve it. I think it is taking responsibility for my own actions as best I can.
LCM used to teach you don’t learn from doing things wrong, you learn from doing things right. I beg to differ. If you don’t recognize and understand the wrong, how do you recognize fully the right? I think both are needed.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
George Santayana.
"He is perhaps best known for the oft-misquoted remark, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it," from Reason in Common Sense, the first volume of his The Life of Reason."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Santayana
One of our posters' signature reads "The lessons repeat until they are learned," which expresses much the same sentiment.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
ha spot sorry i didnt see your post
yeah i was just reading some stuff about that..... you can't live your life in reverse, that kind of thing
i was just thinking it doesn't say forgetting all things, wipe out your memory :)
.
.
.
kind of a cool translation follows:
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Maybe.......some of us (me too -- at times) are stuck in black/white thinking? I don't see anything in those verses about DWELLING ON THE PAST......I might just have to look into that word "forgetting" a little closer. Seems more like "moving away from the things in the past" and REACHING FORTH....
BESIDES.........How many times does God bring into remembrance Moses and THE Exodus out of Egypt? IIRC its like 40 times (lots!)..??? Yeah.....REMEMBER Moses, the Pharoah, the taskmasters, the toil, the grievances, the Red sea, and GOD'S DELIVERANCE OF HIS PEOPLE..!!!!!
Hmmmmm......Am I "dwelling on the past" when I come to Greasespot about 4 hours a week to talk about twi and help undo the heavy burdens???
Or..................Am I "visiting some past experiences" to understand how I was deceived and the manner in which I was deceived and, in turn, help others?? Gee.....I've gone WEEKS without posting on GS and rarily gave twi a second thought. Not quite sure I'd call that DWELLING..??
Visiting the past.........yes.
Dwelling on the past....no.
Edited by skyriderLink to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
right
i'm still not convinced the teaching was correct regarding "the past"
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Jeaniam
It seems to me that we can learn from our mistakes of the past without dwelling on them to an unhealthy extent. After all, we can't change the mistakes of yesterday, nor can we change the mistakes of tomorrow; all that is directly under our control is today, and specifically now, this minute. I made a serious mistake with my son two days ago that hurt his heart. I walked into an argument halfway through and jumped to the erroneous conclusion that he was at fault. I cannot change what happened, but I can, and should, learn from it, while moving on.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Liv42Day
For me it's simple. Maybe I simplify it too much but I like to live in the present. I enjoy looking back at memories and learning from my past experiences. If you haven't lived through it you can't learn from it. And what good are memories if we are not supposed to think back on them and learn from them. God gave us a brain and the ability to remember. So use it. But I don't believe in dwelling on it so much that your forget you living in present day not the past.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
J0nny Ling0
Yes.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Deciderator
Someone once said it is ok to occasionally look back but never get caught staring.
I am not the same person I was 10, 20 or 30 years ago, and were I to run into someone from back then, we might share a few laughs reminiscing, but I would want them to take me for the person I am NOW and not the person I was then.
Edited by DecideratorLink to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Well I used the words *dwelling on the past* because many times, that teaching is used as an excuse to pretend that the past doesn`t matter...
We were trained to ignore the past ... using this catch phrase to condition ourselves to push these things from our minds....people are uncomfortable when we examine the activities of the minitry and it`s leaders....
I think that in light of what we now know, that it is in the consideration of our past difficulties, we can grow and learn.
LOL...my personal mantra for some time now has been to endeavor to avoid making the mistakes today that I will be kicking myself for in 5 years...:)
Jonny, did you read tbones post that I pasted?
I wonder...is not the bible and Jesus, and all he taught in the past? Are these past events not relevent to our present lives? will the accounts of people rising and falling in God`s grace not aid us in our future choices and decisions??? Are they not relevent to dwell on?
I think that we can learn from our past, how to be sharper in the future.
Edited by rascalLink to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
How about this?
Is dwelling on the past comparable to dwelling on vp's class?
Bring up cliches over and over again...........What has God shown you TODAY?
Talking about what vp said here, or taught there........Any new learning TODAY?
When I sat in the class in 1972, blah, blah, blah.........Is The New Dynamic Church STAGNANT..?
Oh, yeah......."the good ole days".....................Or, can one dwell on PAST pleasantries??
Link to comment
Share on other sites
polar bear
Great topic. I agree there is a difference between dwelling and reflecting on the past.
Paul in Phil 3 was referring to his ability to not be hindered by his wretched past. He never said he didn't think about it.I like what someone said about our memory-if God didn't want us to remember the past we wouldn't have one.
I think the big thing we were conned into thinking by twi was to forget everything in the past as a blanket statement for getting out of taking responsibility for our actions. It was an easy way out. Just renew your mind and forget about it. Rather than thinking through situations and figuring out an honest way to work out an answere to a problem.
God good , we may have realized that we were in a cult and our leadership could be wrong at times.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Deciderator
Anyone who brings up that horrid Jethro Tull song gets stabbed in the thigh with a ball point pen.
Just so you know........
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
YOU just did... ;)
I DID post that song a while back in the "Music Lovers" thread. :) I can find it again if you like....
Don't even think about it...!
Edited by doojableLink to comment
Share on other sites
Deciderator
OW!
HEY, THAT HURT!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Great point, Polar Bear – that’s my take on Paul in Philippians 3 also!... In TWI, I got it mixed up so many times: ignoring things in my past that were within my control, that would have made a difference if I responded this way or that - while believing I had power over things beyond my control…just spinning my wheels…I like what Another Spot said on the Spiritual Abuse thread: Your experiences don’t define you – but your response to them does…In Philippians 3, I see that Paul didn’t let his past control him – his response to Christ changed his focus.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Exactly polar Bear...I think that is what chaps my bu tt ...is that this whole idea eliminates the need for repentance and the required seeking of forgivness and making restitution and amends where ever possible...
Ever so much easier to blow it all off and accuse those whom have been wronged of dwelling in the past. It helps the one who did the wronging to ignore responsibility.
If we don`t look and consider the implications of the past...how the heck are we going to figure out where it all went wrong, why, and most importantly how to prevent it from ocuring again?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
anotherDan
I also appreciated TBone's post on the other thread. Paul's "forgetting those things which are behind" cannot mean that he truly forgot, nor failed to reflect on his past, especially his former persecution of the Church, which he cites as the reason he was "least of the apostles." That is in 1Corinthians. Interestingly, as time went on, it appears that his humility increases. In one of the prison epistles (written later) (Eph 3) he writes:
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ
Then at the end of his writings, if not his life, he has this to say:
1Tim1:12ff: And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
From "least of the apostles" to "LESS than the LEAST of all saints" to "chief sinner"!
Rascal points out that the reflection TBone speaks about is necessary for proper repentance. This goes back to the idea of "sin consciousness" that was so promoted by the Way. We cited Romans 8:1, but our consciences were not purged from sin, truly, by the sacrifice of Christ, but by "forgetting" about them!
Another good point was made, namely, that Paul's relation to his past (his laurels as well as his shame) did not get in the way of his action to "press toward the mark," his affirmative action, which I also think is his point in the Phillipians quote.
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, [what] clearing of yourselves, yea, [what] indignation, yea, [what] fear, yea, [what] vehement desire, yea, [what] zeal, yea, [what] revenge! In all [things] ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
"Sin consciousness" per se, is a good thing. Having our consciences purified by the blood of Christ, is likewise good.
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of [our] faith without wavering; (for he [is] faithful that promised;)
Edited by anotherDanLink to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.