Also, I was never subjected to any high-pressure sales technique. I came to Twig for well over a year, and finally someone came up to me and asked if I was ever going to take the class; to which I replied 'What class?' ...
Jean, thanks for sharing. My Mom had a similar experience; she went to twig for a whole year before taking the class. No high pressure sales, and much enjoyment and blessings at twig.
Yep, we had a lady who came to our "twig" for more than a year - I think she had taken the class but never spoke in tongues. She was always helping people, giving of herself and an absolute delight to be around - Loved God - loved her family - loved everyone in fellowship and was best friends with one of the other ladies in our fellowship - they really supported one another and meant a great deal to each other as they had been friends for decades.
THEN Moneyhands moved into town. The lady was told to SIT or leave. Sadly, and reluctantly, she left. :( And a childhood friendship broke up over it. We were forbidden from speaking with her anymore.
That is so sad Belle. I recall something similar happening where I was -- the lady wasn't asked to leave but did not like the pressure and sort of faded out on her own. I was always confused on that because in "the class" it's taught that everyone has a role -- just like your body. The thumb is just as important as the stomach, etc. So, not everyone is a teacher, not everyone does the same thing but I always felt like we were pushed to ALL teach. Some people bless others in little ways. And, they usually turn out to be the biggest ways.
Jean, thanks for sharing. My Mom had a similar experience; she went to twig for a whole year before taking the class. No high pressure sales, and much enjoyment and blessings at twig.
That's great.
Then again, IIRC, she heard during the "best" days/times of twi,
face-to-face from some of the "groovy Christians", the hijacked hippies from the House of Acts.
No surprise THEY weren't high-pressure salesmen- the corps was still in its early development then,
and there was no Dale Carnegie section in it-if they were even IN vpw's corps.
THEY were about enjoyment and blessings.
If twi as a whole had been about that, there'd be no GSC.
Me, I got the later stuff, and my twig was much lower in pressure.
That meant I got to attend a few before they mentioned signing up for "the class."
However, when we had a corps drop in, he immediately began pushing for signups.
When he found out I was the only one there who wasn't "a grad", they practically had to pull him off
me and keep repeating "he's signed up!"
At that moment, I might have been the ONLY person signed up locally, in fact.
What a shame we all couldn't experience the groovy Christians who were the backbone of the
"early twi" experience.
(Actually, the REAL early twi days supposedly would run from 1942-1968,
before there were groovy Christians.
Of that period of over 20 years, we haven't heard any personal accounts,
membership being small enough to barely displace water in a hot tub
I was taught in an offshoot but these guidelines still applied. I was told I needed the class over and over - I think I've sat through it like over 20 times. (Somethings wrong....you need the class!)
A few cosmetic changes have developed in some of the offshoots, but many things have stayed the same.
The leaders are unquestionably right, the answers are capsulized in their progam/class,
if it didn't work, take it again.
If it still doesn't give you answers, the problem is YOU.
However, I can say it did help me, yes I have my bitterness in areas but overall it did change my life. It answered alot of questions I had. I think it comes down to picking on the flesh of the person that provided the class. I can pick on that person's flesh alot -- but they did spend time with me and taught me. I have my flaws to. I'm sure anyone could pick them out but God loves us as we are.
As someone else said, a lot of the questions it answered were provided by THEM.
I can pose a BUNCH of questions I'm going to provide the answers to, and then provide
them, thus proving my efficacy as well. A lot of us ex-twi'ers, familiar with that process, can.
I think 1 evening, at most, should be sufficient to cover the basics of the entire 12 sessions
that people REALLY want: God loves you, God wants you to understand, etc.
Those are hardly unique to twi or ex-twi, although many may not have heard them-
or heard them in a form they wanted to hear- before twi.
We know vpw himself grew up going regularly to church, decided on going into preaching,
completed his curriculum in undergraduate and graduate studies
(and Princeton Theological Seminary, although it is not Princeton, is a respected institution
for the education of Christians)
and was preaching for A YEAR
before he claims he FIRST claimed to have heard that the Bible was God's Word,
at least "believing it."
I have great difficulty picturing a man making it through SEMINARY without ever HEARING
that, so to me, the catch is "hearing it such that I believed it."
If you finally accepted it in the pfal package despite having heard it other places, hey,
I'm glad for you. But the Bible being of God, God loves you, etc, that's not a secret,
let alone a GREAT secret.
Of course, if you're going to accept vpw's word for it, it is
"THE GREATEST SECRET IN THE WORLD TODAY".
(As opposed to, say, the exact time of Christ's return. Now, THAT's a REAL secret.)
From what I have gathered in these threads is LCM really took down the ministry as most of you were in after Wierwille passed away. However, I have gathered it wasn't peaches and cream when he was alive but it got way worse with LCM. It's a shame because right now I am torn - I love the word I was taught but also see the faults in leaders. But one thing I was told that helps me everyday - I, yes I was given the ministry of reconciliation by God -- so I have a ministry, my own ministry. I don't need a leader to tell me what to do as long as I stick with God.
THEY were about enjoyment and blessings. If twi as a whole had been about that, there'd be no GSC.
On the twig level, twi was about that for me most all the time. No pressure. Enjoyment, good fellowship.
This wasn't a "groovy Christian" experience; this was my entire time at twig from 1973-1991. If it wasn't like that, I wouldn't have attended and at those times I felt I wanted to take a break from twi, I did.
The programs were different... WOW was pressure and so forth, so was the corps, but that was expected and I looked at those situations as challenges. No negative whining.
Yep, we had a lady who came to our "twig" for more than a year - I think she had taken the class but never spoke in tongues. She was always helping people, giving of herself and an absolute delight to be around - Loved God - loved her family - loved everyone in fellowship and was best friends with one of the other ladies in our fellowship - they really supported one another and meant a great deal to each other as they had been friends for decades.
THEN Moneyhands moved into town. The lady was told to SIT or leave. Sadly, and reluctantly, she left. :( And a childhood friendship broke up over it. We were forbidden from speaking with her anymore.
That is so sad Belle. I recall something similar happening where I was -- the lady wasn't asked to leave but did not like the pressure and sort of faded out on her own. I was always confused on that because in "the class" it's taught that everyone has a role -- just like your body. The thumb is just as important as the stomach, etc. So, not everyone is a teacher, not everyone does the same thing but I always felt like we were pushed to ALL teach. Some people bless others in little ways. And, they usually turn out to be the biggest ways.
And if the role of "the class" wasn't more of a "do as I say, and this is what I say"
as opposed to "do as I do (and this is NOT what I do),
On the twig level, twi was about that for me most all the time. No pressure. Enjoyment, good fellowship.
This wasn't a "groovy Christian" experience; this was my entire time at twig from 1973-1991. If it wasn't like that, I wouldn't have attended and at those times I felt I wanted to take a break from twi, I did.
The programs were different... WOW was pressure and so forth, so was the corps, but that was expected and I looked at those situations as challenges. No negative whining.
So,
the local fellowship in your area was NOT the direct result of the personal arrival of
any of the "groovy Christians" and THEIR direct involvement?
Seems you posted that before- which explained why YOUR local group deviated so completely
from most of the STATE, including all of NYC.
Seeing that allowed me to look at your experience and say "despite being in almost an entirely different MINISTRY
than me, this could have happened not far away, and he could be telling the truth."
Can a class even do that? Seems presumptuous at best. If a class could do such a thing, it didn't happen in my case. Maybe I'm too passive?
makes life meaningfull
Ditto to the previous one. How can a class MAKE anything into anything? Maybe the wording is just poor. The APPLICATION of said class could do this I guess. But in my case, even that claim gets a "no".
Overcomes worry and fear
Again with what the class can "do" all on it's own. But no, I noticed no perceptable difference on that front.
Promotes prosperity and health
HA! This one's a joke, right? Yeah, dropping out of life in general to run around the country aimlessly was a tremendous benefit to my financial and medical well being!
Explains apparent bible contradictions
No, "explain" isn't the right word. "Obfuscate" I think comes closer to the mark.
Developes more harmony in the home
Oh yeah, you bet. Want more harmony in your home? Just alienate everyone you're related to and dismiss them all as "rank unbelievers". That'll develop harmony, YOU BET!
Enables you to seperate truth from error
No, again it falls short in it's claims. It only gives you a differing opinion to cling to and CLAIM as "the Truth". No guarantee what they're peddling has any more credibility than anybody else's Bible opinions.
Disciplines the mind by believing
What the f$%^ does that even mean? I never knew.
Teaches how to pray effectively.
Well, it teaches a method of prayer, I'll give it that. The fact that you get the same results as any other prayer (nothing) is never mentioned, however.
(Hey I finally figured out how to make a link to another topic! (pats self on back))
:) I've been trying to figure out how to make a link to a specific post. In the upper hand corner of each post is a number. The number is a link but instead of taking you to that specific post it takes you to the thread (or page) instead. On other boards that is not the case. If you can figure that one out I'll pat you on the back.
We know vpw himself grew up going regularly to church, decided on going into preaching,
completed his curriculum in undergraduate and graduate studies
(and Princeton Theological Seminary, although it is not Princeton, is a respected institution
for the education of Christians)
and was preaching for A YEAR
before he claims he FIRST claimed to have heard that the Bible was God's Word,
at least "believing it."
I have great difficulty picturing a man making it through SEMINARY without ever HEARING
that, so to me, the catch is "hearing it such that I believed it."
Actually, PTS was very liberal in VP's day. It still is, though people like Bruce Metzger gave it more balance later in the 20th Century. Hence, his disdain for "higher criticism" that he spoke about in the class. That's what PTS was all about in the 40s and 50s
I always thought that song was a bit sexist and derogatory towards women. Like they were sex-objects instead of people. So, no, I don't think that was a great song. :)
I think that George made some very lucid remarks concerning the promises on the green card...remember the green card?..I think that is the subject of this thread...
Let's talk about "Developes more harmony in the home"...I can't even list the number of familes that I personally saw get torn apart becuase of twi...How exactly did twi define this "harmony in the home"?...I think it was when the entire clan was marching lock step to the cadence of cult land...if uncle Charley didn't want to join up, it was HIS fault that he was out of step with his family members who were trying to dictate to him what he should believe about God...and the rub was that "if you refuse to believe as we do, you are an outsider"...and how many parent thrilled to their child going out wow!..."but your sister is getting married"...sorry mom, I can't leave the wow field.
Is it any wonder that more parents didn't hire degrogrammers to get their kids out of this "We are the only ones with the truth" cult?
...and I read in as earlier post about folks who went to twig for a year before they ever heard of the class?...I assure you, this was an anomaly. Usually (by strong mandated directives trickling down the way tree), new people were informed of the class at their first twig...or somebody was remiss in following twi protocol.
Whole Lotta Love was written by Willy Dixon(like so many other blues/rock classics) and popularized by Muddy Waters in the early 1960s. Originally it was called You Need Love". As with a lot of early bands from the UK, most of Zep's material was reworked and vamped up "blues" that they "borrowed".
Many of these old tunes have lyrics that feature men strutting and boasting and bragging about their manhood.
Singing these songs was one of the few ways they had to release the frustration of having to spend their days being called "boy" and having to kowtow to "The Master".
"Now I'm a Man.
That's spelled M.---A.---N.
No B.--O.--Y."
Another great Willy Dixon tune that Muddy did was "I Just Want To Make Love To You" which the Stones later popularized.
Muddy reprized it on his Electric Mud album in the late sixties.
If you ever have a chance to hear it, you will probably giggle the next time you hear old Mick sing it.
It will definitely seem milk toast in comparison.
Now where were we?
Oh, yeah--- The Green Card.
I guess this idea of "borrowing" material is really nothing new.
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anotherDan
Ad at bottom of page:
Looks good to me.
promotes harmony in the home
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oldiesman
Jean, thanks for sharing. My Mom had a similar experience; she went to twig for a whole year before taking the class. No high pressure sales, and much enjoyment and blessings at twig.
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anotherDan
this one goes out to my new bud, Oldiesman
here's to you, friend!
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Belle
Yep, we had a lady who came to our "twig" for more than a year - I think she had taken the class but never spoke in tongues. She was always helping people, giving of herself and an absolute delight to be around - Loved God - loved her family - loved everyone in fellowship and was best friends with one of the other ladies in our fellowship - they really supported one another and meant a great deal to each other as they had been friends for decades.
THEN Moneyhands moved into town. The lady was told to SIT or leave. Sadly, and reluctantly, she left. :( And a childhood friendship broke up over it. We were forbidden from speaking with her anymore.
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Outfield
That is so sad Belle. I recall something similar happening where I was -- the lady wasn't asked to leave but did not like the pressure and sort of faded out on her own. I was always confused on that because in "the class" it's taught that everyone has a role -- just like your body. The thumb is just as important as the stomach, etc. So, not everyone is a teacher, not everyone does the same thing but I always felt like we were pushed to ALL teach. Some people bless others in little ways. And, they usually turn out to be the biggest ways.
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oldiesman
Thank you my friend Dan.
Lou Rawls was such a good entertainer. I'm gonna miss using his icon.
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Ham
Technically, didn't he "lift" it from Arius? Seems it was a long abandoned doctrine left behind in the 300's..
Makes me wonder, if the church held fast to Arian doctrine, perhaps we'd see a little yellow book published by der vey titled "Jesus Christ IS God"..
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WordWolf
That's great.
Then again, IIRC, she heard during the "best" days/times of twi,
face-to-face from some of the "groovy Christians", the hijacked hippies from the House of Acts.
No surprise THEY weren't high-pressure salesmen- the corps was still in its early development then,
and there was no Dale Carnegie section in it-if they were even IN vpw's corps.
THEY were about enjoyment and blessings.
If twi as a whole had been about that, there'd be no GSC.
Me, I got the later stuff, and my twig was much lower in pressure.
That meant I got to attend a few before they mentioned signing up for "the class."
However, when we had a corps drop in, he immediately began pushing for signups.
When he found out I was the only one there who wasn't "a grad", they practically had to pull him off
me and keep repeating "he's signed up!"
At that moment, I might have been the ONLY person signed up locally, in fact.
What a shame we all couldn't experience the groovy Christians who were the backbone of the
"early twi" experience.
(Actually, the REAL early twi days supposedly would run from 1942-1968,
before there were groovy Christians.
Of that period of over 20 years, we haven't heard any personal accounts,
membership being small enough to barely displace water in a hot tub
across the entire "era".
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WordWolf
A few cosmetic changes have developed in some of the offshoots, but many things have stayed the same.
The leaders are unquestionably right, the answers are capsulized in their progam/class,
if it didn't work, take it again.
If it still doesn't give you answers, the problem is YOU.
As someone else said, a lot of the questions it answered were provided by THEM.I can pose a BUNCH of questions I'm going to provide the answers to, and then provide
them, thus proving my efficacy as well. A lot of us ex-twi'ers, familiar with that process, can.
I think 1 evening, at most, should be sufficient to cover the basics of the entire 12 sessions
that people REALLY want: God loves you, God wants you to understand, etc.
Those are hardly unique to twi or ex-twi, although many may not have heard them-
or heard them in a form they wanted to hear- before twi.
We know vpw himself grew up going regularly to church, decided on going into preaching,
completed his curriculum in undergraduate and graduate studies
(and Princeton Theological Seminary, although it is not Princeton, is a respected institution
for the education of Christians)
and was preaching for A YEAR
before he claims he FIRST claimed to have heard that the Bible was God's Word,
at least "believing it."
I have great difficulty picturing a man making it through SEMINARY without ever HEARING
that, so to me, the catch is "hearing it such that I believed it."
If you finally accepted it in the pfal package despite having heard it other places, hey,
I'm glad for you. But the Bible being of God, God loves you, etc, that's not a secret,
let alone a GREAT secret.
Of course, if you're going to accept vpw's word for it, it is
"THE GREATEST SECRET IN THE WORLD TODAY".
(As opposed to, say, the exact time of Christ's return. Now, THAT's a REAL secret.)
EXACTLY.
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oldiesman
On the twig level, twi was about that for me most all the time. No pressure. Enjoyment, good fellowship.
This wasn't a "groovy Christian" experience; this was my entire time at twig from 1973-1991. If it wasn't like that, I wouldn't have attended and at those times I felt I wanted to take a break from twi, I did.
The programs were different... WOW was pressure and so forth, so was the corps, but that was expected and I looked at those situations as challenges. No negative whining.
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WordWolf
And if the role of "the class" wasn't more of a "do as I say, and this is what I say"
as opposed to "do as I do (and this is NOT what I do),
that wouldn't have happened.
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WordWolf
So,
the local fellowship in your area was NOT the direct result of the personal arrival of
any of the "groovy Christians" and THEIR direct involvement?
Seems you posted that before- which explained why YOUR local group deviated so completely
from most of the STATE, including all of NYC.
Seeing that allowed me to look at your experience and say "despite being in almost an entirely different MINISTRY
than me, this could have happened not far away, and he could be telling the truth."
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anotherDan
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oldiesman
There you go Dan!
I have enough oldies icons to last until the return. :)
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George Aar
Well, what the hell, I guess I'll weigh in:
Establishes and maintains a positive attitude.
Can a class even do that? Seems presumptuous at best. If a class could do such a thing, it didn't happen in my case. Maybe I'm too passive?
makes life meaningfull
Ditto to the previous one. How can a class MAKE anything into anything? Maybe the wording is just poor. The APPLICATION of said class could do this I guess. But in my case, even that claim gets a "no".
Overcomes worry and fear
Again with what the class can "do" all on it's own. But no, I noticed no perceptable difference on that front.
Promotes prosperity and health
HA! This one's a joke, right? Yeah, dropping out of life in general to run around the country aimlessly was a tremendous benefit to my financial and medical well being!
Explains apparent bible contradictions
No, "explain" isn't the right word. "Obfuscate" I think comes closer to the mark.
Developes more harmony in the home
Oh yeah, you bet. Want more harmony in your home? Just alienate everyone you're related to and dismiss them all as "rank unbelievers". That'll develop harmony, YOU BET!
Enables you to seperate truth from error
No, again it falls short in it's claims. It only gives you a differing opinion to cling to and CLAIM as "the Truth". No guarantee what they're peddling has any more credibility than anybody else's Bible opinions.
Disciplines the mind by believing
What the f$%^ does that even mean? I never knew.
Teaches how to pray effectively.
Well, it teaches a method of prayer, I'll give it that. The fact that you get the same results as any other prayer (nothing) is never mentioned, however.
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Twinky
I started something like this before - just about a year ago.
witnessing cards
(Hey I finally figured out how to make a link to another topic! (pats self on back))
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Larry N Moore
:) I've been trying to figure out how to make a link to a specific post. In the upper hand corner of each post is a number. The number is a link but instead of taking you to that specific post it takes you to the thread (or page) instead. On other boards that is not the case. If you can figure that one out I'll pat you on the back.
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anotherDan
George and Twink: Thanks for exWeighing in.
"Makes life meetingful" LOL!
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anotherDan
one more, bro:
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Larry N Moore
Led Zeppelin! Weren't they the ones who sang "Stairway to Heaven"?
http://www.led-zeppelin.com/EMl4.html
Stairway To Heaven
(Page/Plant)
There's a lady who's sure all that glitters is gold
And she's buying a stairway to heaven.
When she gets there she knows, if the stores are all closed
With a word she can get what she came for.
Ooh, ooh, and she's buying a stairway to heaven.
There's a sign on the wall but she wants to be sure
'Cause you know sometimes words have two meanings.
In a tree by the brook, there's a songbird who sings,
Sometimes all of our thoughts are misgiven.
Ooh, it makes me wonder,
Ooh, it makes me wonder.
There's a feeling I get when I look to the west,
And my spirit is crying for leaving.
In my thoughts I have seen rings of smoke through the trees,
And the voices of those who stand looking.
Ooh, it makes me wonder,
Ooh, it really makes me wonder.
And it's whispered that soon if we all call the tune
Then the piper will lead us to reason.
And a new day will dawn for those who stand long
And the forests will echo with laughter.
If there's a bustle in your hedgerow, don't be alarmed now,
It's just a spring clean for the May queen.
Yes, there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run
There's still time to change the road you're on.
And it makes me wonder.
Your head is humming and it won't go, in case you don't know,
The piper's calling you to join him,
Dear lady, can you hear the wind blow, and did you know
Your stairway lies on the whispering wind.
And as we wind on down the road
Our shadows taller than our soul.
There walks a lady we all know
Who shines white light and wants to show
How everything still turns to gold.
And if you listen very hard
The tune will come to you at last.
When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll.
And she's buying a stairway to heaven.
Great song!
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anotherDan
Larry, and "Whole Lotta Love."
Actually, PTS was very liberal in VP's day. It still is, though people like Bruce Metzger gave it more balance later in the 20th Century. Hence, his disdain for "higher criticism" that he spoke about in the class. That's what PTS was all about in the 40s and 50s
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Larry N Moore
I always thought that song was a bit sexist and derogatory towards women. Like they were sex-objects instead of people. So, no, I don't think that was a great song. :)
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GrouchoMarxJr
I think that George made some very lucid remarks concerning the promises on the green card...remember the green card?..I think that is the subject of this thread...
Let's talk about "Developes more harmony in the home"...I can't even list the number of familes that I personally saw get torn apart becuase of twi...How exactly did twi define this "harmony in the home"?...I think it was when the entire clan was marching lock step to the cadence of cult land...if uncle Charley didn't want to join up, it was HIS fault that he was out of step with his family members who were trying to dictate to him what he should believe about God...and the rub was that "if you refuse to believe as we do, you are an outsider"...and how many parent thrilled to their child going out wow!..."but your sister is getting married"...sorry mom, I can't leave the wow field.
Is it any wonder that more parents didn't hire degrogrammers to get their kids out of this "We are the only ones with the truth" cult?
...and I read in as earlier post about folks who went to twig for a year before they ever heard of the class?...I assure you, this was an anomaly. Usually (by strong mandated directives trickling down the way tree), new people were informed of the class at their first twig...or somebody was remiss in following twi protocol.
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waysider
Whole Lotta Love was written by Willy Dixon(like so many other blues/rock classics) and popularized by Muddy Waters in the early 1960s. Originally it was called You Need Love". As with a lot of early bands from the UK, most of Zep's material was reworked and vamped up "blues" that they "borrowed".
Many of these old tunes have lyrics that feature men strutting and boasting and bragging about their manhood.
Singing these songs was one of the few ways they had to release the frustration of having to spend their days being called "boy" and having to kowtow to "The Master".
"Now I'm a Man.
That's spelled M.---A.---N.
No B.--O.--Y."
Another great Willy Dixon tune that Muddy did was "I Just Want To Make Love To You" which the Stones later popularized.
Muddy reprized it on his Electric Mud album in the late sixties.
If you ever have a chance to hear it, you will probably giggle the next time you hear old Mick sing it.
It will definitely seem milk toast in comparison.
Now where were we?
Oh, yeah--- The Green Card.
I guess this idea of "borrowing" material is really nothing new.
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