I was in TWI at the time this reportedly happened.
I have no insider info. to share on it.
As I recall, we were told that they were hunting in Pennsylvania when Howard became ill.
(Of course, we know now that their activities in PA were not all of the outdoor variety.)
I don't remember if there was ever an announcement stating the nature of his illness.
At the time, I think people in the twigs speculated it might be Lyme Disease because you acquire that from being bitten by a deer tick that is carrying it, or that it may have been encephalitis from a mosquito.
I can't speak to the verscity of the story, but here are more details that I remember hearing get told.
As I recall the story, VP and Howard were on a hunting trip, and apparently Howard went to sleep and, when he woke up, "Howard wasn't Howard anymore," was a quote that I seem to remember VP relating.
Then VP drove the camper (or whatever the vehicle was) back to HQ. Along the way he picked up a hitchiker who helped keep Howard in his bed while VP drove (apparently, Howard kept getting up and walking around). VP later opined that the hitchhicker may have been an angel.
Then Howard spent time in the hospital, and "died twice" (??? - this came back to me as I was putting on finishing touches to this post - obviously if he died twice, he was revived both times). After he was stabilized, he was fed, among other things, blackstrap molasses and beet juice, as prepared by Gr*c* Bl*ss. I remember Howard mentioning on stage about how strong beet juice tasted.
I was actually the secretary of the physician who admitted him, but not yet involved in TWI.
It was real intense. The best I recall he had something called herpes encephalitis. Now I'm sure you are all going to jump up and down and say OH HO! Herpes simplex 2, no doubt! OF COURSE! It HAD to be an STD. Remember, this was in 1972 or so and there was no such diagnosis as HS2. So anyways, it was a real big deal to the doctor I worked for and the truth of the matter is, they were about to try some huge experimental chemo treatment where they have to use another drug to rescue the patient from the first drug, or the patient will expire. But he did slowly get better. I do think it was a true miracle of God, because the only way to diagnose him for sure would have been a brain biopsy, and I don't think they did one .
I was not involved with TWI and not real happy with all the intense people scurrying around and being made a gopher for some of them. I do remember having to take a kit for knitting or cross stitch or something to Mrs. Allen in the ICU waiting room. I do remember there were people making concoctions involving black strap molasses and expressed juice. Mrs. Lynn was around some and I was not pleased to see her; she always treated me like a slime ball slave before and after I took PFAL.
I didn't have much to do with it, other than to be barked at by a few people and try to stay in my office typing furiously and keeping a very low profile. I didn't understand the extreme importance of this one guy, who didn't even seem to need surgery. A daughter of the sitting President of the United States was in the same hospital not long after, and the anxiety/stress/intensity level was about the same, but with real secret service agents this time.
I REALLY DON'T LIKE IT when people take something I say and twist it around. MY POINT WAS, SINCE OBVIOUSLY YOU CHOSE NOT TO READ IT CORRECTLY, that it was NOT NOT NOT AN STD!!!!!
NO IT WAS NOT NOT NOT AN STD!
GET THE PICTURE!!!!!!
Things are bad enough without making me out to be a purveyor of lies!
THAT JUST SUCKS! THAT MAKES ME REALLY REALLY ANGRY!
There are plenty of people on this forum who exaggerate, make up stuff, and just downright lie without you making this big fat whoop-de-doo that Watered Garden said it first..I said the exact opposite! I said it was NOTan STD.
I try to be as truthful as I can when I post on GSC. I realize I blew a lot of peoples' hopes and dreams when I said he really was sick.
I was 17 at the time and had been in TWI less than a year and lived in my hometown in western NC in the foothills of the mountains. I remember we had 24 hours of prayer for him and were told to picture him riding his bicycle around HQ ... quite a challenge for us, since we had never seen him or had never been to HQ!
Later on in the Way, either at the ROA or while I was in-residence, I heard Pat Lynn tell her story of the "Incredible Healing of Howard Allen" or some such title. I really do believe it happened and with the intensity and detail she told.
After his recovery, some of us went to eastern TN (Kingsport, I think) to hear Dr. Wierwille teach, and Howard was with him. VPW shared on the verses about God having mercy on Howard and on him "lest should have sorrow upon sorrow."
I REALLY DON'T LIKE IT when people take something I say and twist it around. MY POINT WAS, SINCE OBVIOUSLY YOU CHOSE NOT TO READ IT CORRECTLY, that it was NOT NOT NOT AN STD!!!!!
NO IT WAS NOT NOT NOT AN STD!
GET THE PICTURE!!!!!!
Things are bad enough without making me out to be a purveyor of lies!
THAT JUST SUCKS! THAT MAKES ME REALLY REALLY ANGRY!
There are plenty of people on this forum who exaggerate, make up stuff, and just downright lie without you making this big fat whoop-de-doo that Watered Garden said it first..I said the exact opposite! I said it was NOTan STD.
I try to be as truthful as I can when I post on GSC. I realize I blew a lot of peoples' hopes and dreams when I said he really was sick.
WG
GO GIRL GO!
It looks like you may have nipped a lie in the making.
It reminds me of how the racism lie was shot down here by HCW before it got past one page... only you were faster.
***
My remembrance was that a tape of Dr reading Psalm 103 was played a lot for Howard.
I REALLY DON'T LIKE IT when people take something I say and twist it around. MY POINT WAS, SINCE OBVIOUSLY YOU CHOSE NOT TO READ IT CORRECTLY, that it was NOT NOT NOT AN STD!!!!!
NO IT WAS NOT NOT NOT AN STD!
GET THE PICTURE!!!!!!
Things are bad enough without making me out to be a purveyor of lies!
THAT JUST SUCKS! THAT MAKES ME REALLY REALLY ANGRY!
There are plenty of people on this forum who exaggerate, make up stuff, and just downright lie without you making this big fat whoop-de-doo that Watered Garden said it first..I said the exact opposite! I said it was NOTan STD.
I try to be as truthful as I can when I post on GSC. I realize I blew a lot of peoples' hopes and dreams when I said he really was sick.
WG
Thought this was worth repeating. Thanks for your honest accuracy .
I was actually the secretary of the physician who admitted him, but not yet involved in TWI.
It was real intense. The best I recall he had something called herpes encephalitis. Now I'm sure you are all going to jump up and down and say OH HO! Herpes simplex 2, no doubt! OF COURSE! It HAD to be an STD. Remember, this was in 1972 or so and there was no such diagnosis as HS2. So anyways, it was a real big deal to the doctor I worked for and the truth of the matter is, they were about to try some huge experimental chemo treatment where they have to use another drug to rescue the patient from the first drug, or the patient will expire. But he did slowly get better. I do think it was a true miracle of God, because the only way to diagnose him for sure would have been a brain biopsy, and I don't think they did one .
WG
I REALLY DON'T LIKE IT when people take something I say and twist it around. MY POINT WAS, SINCE OBVIOUSLY YOU CHOSE NOT TO READ IT CORRECTLY, that it was NOT NOT NOT AN STD!!!!!
NO IT WAS NOT NOT NOT AN STD!
GET THE PICTURE!!!!!!
Dear Watered Garden,
Thank you for your input on this subject so far.
I hope we can prevail upon you to fill us in a little better, so long as we phrase the questions in
a civil and respectful manner.
I was getting ready to re-read the thread, then ask you to clarify your post.
It seemed both like you were saying it WAS an STD, and that it WASN'T.
After all, you said the DIAGNOSIS HS2 wasn't around yet-not that he couldn't have GOTTEN
it, just that he could not have been DIAGNOSED with it.
However, the "OH HO!" part made it sound like you were saying it was definitely NOT HS2.
I think it's not unreasonable to see it's possible that many people here-especially those of us
who, like myself, lack a medical background. IIRC, when you get a COLD SORE, that's
a herpes virus or something, and THAT usually isn't an STD.
*glances at something*
Hm. A Herpes virus is responsible for chicken pox, and Epstein-Barr/"mono".
(And not everything people call a "cold sore" is caused by this virus.
I could use some time reading up...)
If you could explain to us, in terms that complete duffers can understand,
I certainly would appreciate it. I expect others would as well.
Here's something I found on wikipedia on Encephalitis.
Diagnosis
Adult patients with encephalitis present with acute onset of fever, headache, confusion, and sometimes seizures. Younger children or infants may present irritability, anorexia and fever.
Neurological examinations usually reveal a drowsy or confused patient. Stiff neck, due to the irritation of the meninges covering the brain, indicates that the patient has either meningitis or meningeoncephalitis. Examination of the cerebrospinal fluid obtained by a lumbar puncture procedure usually reveals increased amounts of protein and white blood cells with normal glucose, though in a significant percentage of patients, the cerebrospinal fluid may be normal. CT scan often is not helpful, as cerebral abscess is uncommon. Cerebral abscess is more common in patients with meningitis than encephalitis. Bleeding is also uncommon except in patients with herpes simplex type 1 encephalitis. Magnetic resonance imaging offers better resolution. In patients with herpes simplex encephalitis, electroencephalograph may show sharp waves in one or both of the temporal lobes. Lumbar puncture procedure is performed only after the possibility of prominent brain swelling is excluded by a CT scan examination. Diagnosis is often made with detection of antibodies in the cerebrospinal fluid against a specific viral agent (such as herpes simplex virus) or by polymerase chain reaction that amplifies the RNA or DNA of the virus responsible (such as varicella zoster virus).
Treatment
Treatment is usually symptomatic. Reliably tested specific antiviral agents are available only for a few viral agents (e.g. acyclovir for herpes simplex virus) and are used with limited success for most infection except herpes simplex encephalitis. In patients who are very sick, supportive treatment, such as mechanical ventilation, is equally important.
I REALLY DON'T LIKE IT when people take something I say and twist it around. MY POINT WAS, SINCE OBVIOUSLY YOU CHOSE NOT TO READ IT CORRECTLY, that it was NOT NOT NOT AN STD!!!!!
NO IT WAS NOT NOT NOT AN STD!
GET THE PICTURE!!!!!!
Things are bad enough without making me out to be a purveyor of lies!
THAT JUST SUCKS! THAT MAKES ME REALLY REALLY ANGRY!
There are plenty of people on this forum who exaggerate, make up stuff, and just downright lie without you making this big fat whoop-de-doo that Watered Garden said it first..I said the exact opposite! I said it was NOTan STD.
I try to be as truthful as I can when I post on GSC. I realize I blew a lot of peoples' hopes and dreams when I said he really was sick.
WG
WG,
Lighten up, will you?! I understand your desire to keep it truthful, but as I recall you did the exact same thing with one of my posts....
you twisted my words and said I saying your diabetes was from a demon....
It's good to hear actual accounts from folks who where around back then.
From the wikipedia info posted it sounds like a condition that was hard to diagnose (especially back then) and even harder to treat. Grace B. was an expert on natural foods and it sounds like whatever she did (I too, remember hearing about the blackstrap molasses and beet juice) worked.
Was it a miracle? Depends on how you define miracle and what intervention you think took place.
But at least it is one story that actually happened, as opposed to the many "stawries" told just to make a point.
Does anyone know the time frame?
When did Howard go to the hospital? How long was he there? How long was he recouperating at HQ?
He was around for a while. I think Mike is correct about the recoding of Ps. 103. I was a Christian, but not a Wayfer, so was not encouraged to be around the situation too closely, just to go-fer, answer the phone, and get barked at mostly via telephone by VP and Pat Lynn and so on. Since I didn't know who any of them were, except maybe Mrs. Lynn, I was considerably annoyed.
I'm reasonably sure HA was in the hospital for at least two weeks. There were a couple of other folks in the ICU with the same problem, and at least one of them expired.
HA was pretty weak and fragile for a while after that. Grace B had him on a special round of supplements that did include blackstrap molasses and freshly cold pressed beet juice (good for raising hemoglobin levels in the blood) I don't know what the blackstrap molasses in good for; it smells a little like it has iron in it. It's great for baking bread.
Word Wolf, thanks for the calming advice. I forgot that it is Herpes simplex. I didn't mean to imply it might have been undiagnosed HS2. I'm not even sure that particular virus had evolved at that time.
At any rate, in 1972 there wasn't a whole lot they could do besides provide supportive treatment and such. At first, nobody knew what on earth was wrong with him. I remember when he was admitted, dutifully writing down a phone message from some guy named Weird Wolf that he might have been bitten by a brown recluse spider. This man sounded very angry and made me read the message back for him word for wrod. I wanted to ask him if he thought he was the only human on earth with more than one brain cell. Later I realized he was just worried.
At any rate I was praying as hard as anyone for his restoration to excellent health, but not for all of the same reasons.
WG
Oh, yeah, I just remembered. Once you have chicken pox, the herpes virus stays in your body, mostly dormant. Some but not all cold sores are from it, as are shingles. It's a nasty little son of a gun and children should be inoculated against it if there is a vaccine. Been a while since my kiddie was little, so I don't remember for sure.
And you can get chicken pox more than once! I had it as an itchy, uncomfortable 6 year old and then soon after I had been diagnosed with diabetes and my immune system was weakened, was ordered to babysit the children of a WC couple whose four kids had it, and darned if I didn't break out a little bit with it myself. Not very bad, but not that great either.
From the Merck Website....a very commonly used (in Med profession) and reliable source (the Merck Manual online).
In the US, the most common sporadic encephalitis is caused by herpes simplex virus (HSV); hundreds to several thousand cases occur yearly. Most are due to HSV type 1, but HSV type 2 may be more common among immunocompromised patients. HSV encephalitis occurs at any time of the year, tends to affect patients < 20 or > 40 yr, and is often fatal if untreated
So, you said it was Herpes Symplex. Sounds like you weren't sure if it was HS1 or HS2, but that it was not an STD but that it was not at the time able to be diagnosed as such. Sound right? So it sounds like it could have been HS2, but it wasn't diagnosable at the time.
Seems to me that it was one of the two and that he would have gotten one of those in one of two ways. HS1 is the one we typically associate with the oral sores. That one is gotten through saliva, usually kissing. Howard was renowned for his kissing of random women. This could have easily been the point of transmission. Unfortunately, it is a life-long disease, so any of you ladies kissing/ being kissed by the big HA could have gotten HS1 from him in the years to follow, if that in fact was the type of HS he had.
HS2 is sexually transmitted and orally transmitted, but as it says in the Merck Manual more likely among immunocompromised patients (in our day this is common with HIV patients.) to cause encephalitis. Whether Howard was sick with something else first we don't know, but it says "more common" not impossible. So it could have been HS2....we don't know.
Does anyone remember seeing HA with the typical mouth sores over the years? That could clue us in. There were no medicated creams back then, as far as I know, so it would have been an oral sore(s) for a full week or two. But again, the mouth sores can be HS1 or 2.
So what we know is he was actually sick with a herpes virus that caused encephalitis that and that it was either HS1 or HS2, which given his reported behavior it could have been transmitted through his kissing of many women (hippies during the sexual revolution mind you) or sexual relations. It could go either way. Whether or not the "natural remedies" or prayer actually cured him of a virus that lacking those two things will either kill you or you will get better is, IMO, unlikely but unknowable. Is this another made up story...apparently not. Is it an indictment on HA or VPW's character? That is not completely clear. As it stands right now, I would say no, just that HA kissed a lot of random women on the mouth, before and after this incident.
Take a look at the Merck Manual. It was one of those two types of herpes virus. The other types cause other things.
My favorite part of the story is the hitchhiking angel. It seems like in all the stories I have ever heard of concerning hitchhikers (save LEAD stories) the hitcher is either an angel or a psycho.
edit: side note...herpes varicella is chicken pox and is what the vaccine is for. To my knowledge it never causes encephalitis. But if you don't get it when you are young (the disease) it can kill when you get it as an adult, usually by circulatory problems like heart issues. I believe that is the main reason for vaccinating kids today.
Lindy, your statement of either an "angle" or a pscho, I think you meant angel. However "angle" as in story might be closer to the truth than you realised.
isn't it at least intriguing that the mention of something that sounds like an std, and certain "menogawd".. and someone can almost reasonably come to the conclusion based on "I knew da man.. doesn't suprise me a bit.."
Long story made short, she had encephalitis which was likely caused by a mosquito bite.
(Encephalitis is really a generic term which means "a swelling/infection of the brain".)
There was a city wide outbreak of it that year.
So, I am inclined to think that there is a great likelihood that Howard developed encephalitis due to a mosquito bite.(or tick bite)
Maybe my memory is too vague, but weren't Howard and VP on a hunting trip where the liklihood of getting atick bite or mosquito bite would be high? I don't know the pathology and possible entymologic vectors of encephalitis, but might be cause to wonder.
Maybe my memory is too vague, but weren't Howard and VP on a hunting trip where the liklihood of getting atick bite or mosquito bite would be high? I don't know the pathology and possible entymologic vectors of encephalitis, but might be cause to wonder.
Per
from Merck again w/ my note:
Viruses causing primary encephalitis may be epidemic (eg, arbovirus(INSERT: READ MOSQUITOS AND TICKS), poliovirus, echovirus, coxsackievirus) or sporadic (eg, herpes simplex, rabies, varicella-zoster, or mumps virus).
Encephalitis is caused by a lot of things including diseases transmitted from mosquitoes and ticks. Not knowing anything, there would be a long list of possible causes. But it seems WG has first hand knowledge. As you see above, epidemics, like the St. Louis Encephalites that cycled through every ten years or Western Equine Encephalitis which cycled round about every 20 years (both of which would have been in the the Penn. area at that time but no longer happen much), can be caused by an arbovirus, while sporatic events are caused by things like HSV. I also see that varicella-zoster (another herpes virus) can also cause it, I assume later in life, but that clearly comes with the herpes type rash on your trunk and he would have first had those visible symptoms way before the encephalitis. The only way they would have known it was herpes encephalitis vs. an arboviral encephalitis would be through a test.
If anyone likes to geek out on this stuff like I do here is a page on encephalitis.
Given the amount of on the mouth kissing HA did I can see this happening at some point. I would also say the arboviral possibility was a good one too if it were not for WG's posts. I don't have any reason to doubt her... other than the fact that she is just another random, unknown (to me), online, former wayfer, lol! Call me crazy, but I believe her.
Once again, it sounds like I am saying it was an STD. I NEVER SAID ANY SUCH THING. The arboviral is the most likely possibility, given they had been out hunting.
I think things were/are bad enough without smearing someone with something they didn't necessarily do. The question from a medical standpoint is not so much how did he get it but how do we get him over it.
I just knew if I posted anything y'all would immediately grab the dirtiest ball in the game and run with it.
Aren't there enough unplesant things to discuss that we actually know DID happen?
Haven't enough sins been committed, discussed, dissected, and never forgiven?
Do we have to invent dirt to dig in?
I NEVER SAID IT WAS AN STD AND I MAJORLY DOUBT IF IT WAS!
I agree... no need to invent dirt when there is already plenty to spread around.
What intrigues me in this, however, is that Watered Garden says they all realized he had Encephalites, and were doing everything they could think of to treat it... why do I never remember EVER hearing that this is what happened to Howard?
All I remember hearing is something like "ooooh Howard fell suddenly ill from some mysterious disease -- obviously it was the devil attacking him for standing strong with twi !!!"
Does anyone else remember them ever just coming right out and saying "Howard had encephalites, and we suspect it was from a mosquito or tick bite since they were out hunting and it was going around at the time."? Wouldn't that make the most sense... to announce the facts so folks could pray for the specifics?
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excathedra
good question
it's so ingrained in my brain i thought it was true like i was there but i wasn't
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waysider
I was in TWI at the time this reportedly happened.
I have no insider info. to share on it.
As I recall, we were told that they were hunting in Pennsylvania when Howard became ill.
(Of course, we know now that their activities in PA were not all of the outdoor variety.)
I don't remember if there was ever an announcement stating the nature of his illness.
At the time, I think people in the twigs speculated it might be Lyme Disease because you acquire that from being bitten by a deer tick that is carrying it, or that it may have been encephalitis from a mosquito.
That's all I know about it.
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Peruser
I can't speak to the verscity of the story, but here are more details that I remember hearing get told.
As I recall the story, VP and Howard were on a hunting trip, and apparently Howard went to sleep and, when he woke up, "Howard wasn't Howard anymore," was a quote that I seem to remember VP relating.
Then VP drove the camper (or whatever the vehicle was) back to HQ. Along the way he picked up a hitchiker who helped keep Howard in his bed while VP drove (apparently, Howard kept getting up and walking around). VP later opined that the hitchhicker may have been an angel.
Then Howard spent time in the hospital, and "died twice" (??? - this came back to me as I was putting on finishing touches to this post - obviously if he died twice, he was revived both times). After he was stabilized, he was fed, among other things, blackstrap molasses and beet juice, as prepared by Gr*c* Bl*ss. I remember Howard mentioning on stage about how strong beet juice tasted.
That's all i remember of the story.
Per
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Watered Garden
I was actually the secretary of the physician who admitted him, but not yet involved in TWI.
It was real intense. The best I recall he had something called herpes encephalitis. Now I'm sure you are all going to jump up and down and say OH HO! Herpes simplex 2, no doubt! OF COURSE! It HAD to be an STD. Remember, this was in 1972 or so and there was no such diagnosis as HS2. So anyways, it was a real big deal to the doctor I worked for and the truth of the matter is, they were about to try some huge experimental chemo treatment where they have to use another drug to rescue the patient from the first drug, or the patient will expire. But he did slowly get better. I do think it was a true miracle of God, because the only way to diagnose him for sure would have been a brain biopsy, and I don't think they did one .
I was not involved with TWI and not real happy with all the intense people scurrying around and being made a gopher for some of them. I do remember having to take a kit for knitting or cross stitch or something to Mrs. Allen in the ICU waiting room. I do remember there were people making concoctions involving black strap molasses and expressed juice. Mrs. Lynn was around some and I was not pleased to see her; she always treated me like a slime ball slave before and after I took PFAL.
I didn't have much to do with it, other than to be barked at by a few people and try to stay in my office typing furiously and keeping a very low profile. I didn't understand the extreme importance of this one guy, who didn't even seem to need surgery. A daughter of the sitting President of the United States was in the same hospital not long after, and the anxiety/stress/intensity level was about the same, but with real secret service agents this time.
WG
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polar bear
I was going to say I thought it was some type of std, but WG beat me to it. Are we not surprised.
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Watered Garden
Polar Bear,
I REALLY DON'T LIKE IT when people take something I say and twist it around. MY POINT WAS, SINCE OBVIOUSLY YOU CHOSE NOT TO READ IT CORRECTLY, that it was NOT NOT NOT AN STD!!!!!
NO IT WAS NOT NOT NOT AN STD!
GET THE PICTURE!!!!!!
Things are bad enough without making me out to be a purveyor of lies!
THAT JUST SUCKS! THAT MAKES ME REALLY REALLY ANGRY!
There are plenty of people on this forum who exaggerate, make up stuff, and just downright lie without you making this big fat whoop-de-doo that Watered Garden said it first..I said the exact opposite! I said it was NOTan STD.
I try to be as truthful as I can when I post on GSC. I realize I blew a lot of peoples' hopes and dreams when I said he really was sick.
WG
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DogLover
I was 17 at the time and had been in TWI less than a year and lived in my hometown in western NC in the foothills of the mountains. I remember we had 24 hours of prayer for him and were told to picture him riding his bicycle around HQ ... quite a challenge for us, since we had never seen him or had never been to HQ!
Later on in the Way, either at the ROA or while I was in-residence, I heard Pat Lynn tell her story of the "Incredible Healing of Howard Allen" or some such title. I really do believe it happened and with the intensity and detail she told.
After his recovery, some of us went to eastern TN (Kingsport, I think) to hear Dr. Wierwille teach, and Howard was with him. VPW shared on the verses about God having mercy on Howard and on him "lest should have sorrow upon sorrow."
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Mike
GO GIRL GO!
It looks like you may have nipped a lie in the making.
It reminds me of how the racism lie was shot down here by HCW before it got past one page... only you were faster.
***
My remembrance was that a tape of Dr reading Psalm 103 was played a lot for Howard.
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WhiteDove
Thought this was worth repeating. Thanks for your honest accuracy .
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WordWolf
Dear Watered Garden,
Thank you for your input on this subject so far.
I hope we can prevail upon you to fill us in a little better, so long as we phrase the questions in
a civil and respectful manner.
I was getting ready to re-read the thread, then ask you to clarify your post.
It seemed both like you were saying it WAS an STD, and that it WASN'T.
After all, you said the DIAGNOSIS HS2 wasn't around yet-not that he couldn't have GOTTEN
it, just that he could not have been DIAGNOSED with it.
However, the "OH HO!" part made it sound like you were saying it was definitely NOT HS2.
I think it's not unreasonable to see it's possible that many people here-especially those of us
who, like myself, lack a medical background. IIRC, when you get a COLD SORE, that's
a herpes virus or something, and THAT usually isn't an STD.
*glances at something*
Hm. A Herpes virus is responsible for chicken pox, and Epstein-Barr/"mono".
(And not everything people call a "cold sore" is caused by this virus.
I could use some time reading up...)
If you could explain to us, in terms that complete duffers can understand,
I certainly would appreciate it. I expect others would as well.
Here's something I found on wikipedia on Encephalitis.
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brideofjc
WG,
Lighten up, will you?! I understand your desire to keep it truthful, but as I recall you did the exact same thing with one of my posts....
you twisted my words and said I saying your diabetes was from a demon....
Not reading posts correctly happens....Geez!
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polar bear
Sorry WG I thought you were implying it was some form of an STD.
I knew Howard and iVP and it wouldn't have surprised me, that's all I meant.
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TheHighWay
My thanks to everyone who responded.
It's good to hear actual accounts from folks who where around back then.
From the wikipedia info posted it sounds like a condition that was hard to diagnose (especially back then) and even harder to treat. Grace B. was an expert on natural foods and it sounds like whatever she did (I too, remember hearing about the blackstrap molasses and beet juice) worked.
Was it a miracle? Depends on how you define miracle and what intervention you think took place.
But at least it is one story that actually happened, as opposed to the many "stawries" told just to make a point.
Does anyone know the time frame?
When did Howard go to the hospital? How long was he there? How long was he recouperating at HQ?
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Watered Garden
He was around for a while. I think Mike is correct about the recoding of Ps. 103. I was a Christian, but not a Wayfer, so was not encouraged to be around the situation too closely, just to go-fer, answer the phone, and get barked at mostly via telephone by VP and Pat Lynn and so on. Since I didn't know who any of them were, except maybe Mrs. Lynn, I was considerably annoyed.
I'm reasonably sure HA was in the hospital for at least two weeks. There were a couple of other folks in the ICU with the same problem, and at least one of them expired.
HA was pretty weak and fragile for a while after that. Grace B had him on a special round of supplements that did include blackstrap molasses and freshly cold pressed beet juice (good for raising hemoglobin levels in the blood) I don't know what the blackstrap molasses in good for; it smells a little like it has iron in it. It's great for baking bread.
Word Wolf, thanks for the calming advice. I forgot that it is Herpes simplex. I didn't mean to imply it might have been undiagnosed HS2. I'm not even sure that particular virus had evolved at that time.
At any rate, in 1972 there wasn't a whole lot they could do besides provide supportive treatment and such. At first, nobody knew what on earth was wrong with him. I remember when he was admitted, dutifully writing down a phone message from some guy named Weird Wolf that he might have been bitten by a brown recluse spider. This man sounded very angry and made me read the message back for him word for wrod. I wanted to ask him if he thought he was the only human on earth with more than one brain cell. Later I realized he was just worried.
At any rate I was praying as hard as anyone for his restoration to excellent health, but not for all of the same reasons.
WG
Oh, yeah, I just remembered. Once you have chicken pox, the herpes virus stays in your body, mostly dormant. Some but not all cold sores are from it, as are shingles. It's a nasty little son of a gun and children should be inoculated against it if there is a vaccine. Been a while since my kiddie was little, so I don't remember for sure.
And you can get chicken pox more than once! I had it as an itchy, uncomfortable 6 year old and then soon after I had been diagnosed with diabetes and my immune system was weakened, was ordered to babysit the children of a WC couple whose four kids had it, and darned if I didn't break out a little bit with it myself. Not very bad, but not that great either.
WG
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lindyhopper
After discussing with the wife a bit...
From the Merck Website....a very commonly used (in Med profession) and reliable source (the Merck Manual online).
So, you said it was Herpes Symplex. Sounds like you weren't sure if it was HS1 or HS2, but that it was not an STD but that it was not at the time able to be diagnosed as such. Sound right? So it sounds like it could have been HS2, but it wasn't diagnosable at the time.
Seems to me that it was one of the two and that he would have gotten one of those in one of two ways. HS1 is the one we typically associate with the oral sores. That one is gotten through saliva, usually kissing. Howard was renowned for his kissing of random women. This could have easily been the point of transmission. Unfortunately, it is a life-long disease, so any of you ladies kissing/ being kissed by the big HA could have gotten HS1 from him in the years to follow, if that in fact was the type of HS he had.
HS2 is sexually transmitted and orally transmitted, but as it says in the Merck Manual more likely among immunocompromised patients (in our day this is common with HIV patients.) to cause encephalitis. Whether Howard was sick with something else first we don't know, but it says "more common" not impossible. So it could have been HS2....we don't know.
Does anyone remember seeing HA with the typical mouth sores over the years? That could clue us in. There were no medicated creams back then, as far as I know, so it would have been an oral sore(s) for a full week or two. But again, the mouth sores can be HS1 or 2.
So what we know is he was actually sick with a herpes virus that caused encephalitis that and that it was either HS1 or HS2, which given his reported behavior it could have been transmitted through his kissing of many women (hippies during the sexual revolution mind you) or sexual relations. It could go either way. Whether or not the "natural remedies" or prayer actually cured him of a virus that lacking those two things will either kill you or you will get better is, IMO, unlikely but unknowable. Is this another made up story...apparently not. Is it an indictment on HA or VPW's character? That is not completely clear. As it stands right now, I would say no, just that HA kissed a lot of random women on the mouth, before and after this incident.
Take a look at the Merck Manual. It was one of those two types of herpes virus. The other types cause other things.
My favorite part of the story is the hitchhiking angel. It seems like in all the stories I have ever heard of concerning hitchhikers (save LEAD stories) the hitcher is either an angel or a psycho.
edit: side note...herpes varicella is chicken pox and is what the vaccine is for. To my knowledge it never causes encephalitis. But if you don't get it when you are young (the disease) it can kill when you get it as an adult, usually by circulatory problems like heart issues. I believe that is the main reason for vaccinating kids today.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Lindy, your statement of either an "angle" or a pscho, I think you meant angel. However "angle" as in story might be closer to the truth than you realised.
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lindyhopper
:) yes, saw that and edited for your viewing pleasure.
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Ham
Just a little side thought:
isn't it at least intriguing that the mention of something that sounds like an std, and certain "menogawd".. and someone can almost reasonably come to the conclusion based on "I knew da man.. doesn't suprise me a bit.."
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waysider
When I was about 4 or 5 years old, I was walking through the A&P(Super Market) with my parents and my two sisters.
My younger sister was seated in the shopping cart.
Suddenly, she went limp and fell into a state of unconsciousness.
Then, she went into convulsions. It happened very, very quickly.
We rushed out to the car and drove to the nearest hospital which was probably about two miles away.
Long story made short, she had encephalitis which was likely caused by a mosquito bite.
(Encephalitis is really a generic term which means "a swelling/infection of the brain".)
There was a city wide outbreak of it that year.
If I understand correctly, it runs in about 20 year cycles.
The Howard incident was about 20 years later.
At the time, we lived about two hours away from HA's incident.
A couple years ago, we also had an outbreak near my current residence.(again, approximately within a 20 year time frame.)
That young man, unfortunately, expired.
So, I am inclined to think that there is a great likelihood that Howard developed encephalitis due to a mosquito bite.(or tick bite)
I guess there is no way to know for certain but that's my take on it.
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Peruser
Maybe my memory is too vague, but weren't Howard and VP on a hunting trip where the liklihood of getting atick bite or mosquito bite would be high? I don't know the pathology and possible entymologic vectors of encephalitis, but might be cause to wonder.
Per
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lindyhopper
from Merck again w/ my note:
Encephalitis is caused by a lot of things including diseases transmitted from mosquitoes and ticks. Not knowing anything, there would be a long list of possible causes. But it seems WG has first hand knowledge. As you see above, epidemics, like the St. Louis Encephalites that cycled through every ten years or Western Equine Encephalitis which cycled round about every 20 years (both of which would have been in the the Penn. area at that time but no longer happen much), can be caused by an arbovirus, while sporatic events are caused by things like HSV. I also see that varicella-zoster (another herpes virus) can also cause it, I assume later in life, but that clearly comes with the herpes type rash on your trunk and he would have first had those visible symptoms way before the encephalitis. The only way they would have known it was herpes encephalitis vs. an arboviral encephalitis would be through a test.
If anyone likes to geek out on this stuff like I do here is a page on encephalitis.
Given the amount of on the mouth kissing HA did I can see this happening at some point. I would also say the arboviral possibility was a good one too if it were not for WG's posts. I don't have any reason to doubt her... other than the fact that she is just another random, unknown (to me), online, former wayfer, lol! Call me crazy, but I believe her.
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Watered Garden
Lindy,
Once again, it sounds like I am saying it was an STD. I NEVER SAID ANY SUCH THING. The arboviral is the most likely possibility, given they had been out hunting.
I think things were/are bad enough without smearing someone with something they didn't necessarily do. The question from a medical standpoint is not so much how did he get it but how do we get him over it.
I just knew if I posted anything y'all would immediately grab the dirtiest ball in the game and run with it.
Aren't there enough unplesant things to discuss that we actually know DID happen?
Haven't enough sins been committed, discussed, dissected, and never forgiven?
Do we have to invent dirt to dig in?
I NEVER SAID IT WAS AN STD AND I MAJORLY DOUBT IF IT WAS!
WG
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Peruser
WG, et al.,
Agreed. Digging dirt (imaginary or otherwise) serves no purpose towards getting a person back to health.
The fact that Howard got sick is unfortunate, but it's fortunate (from a human standpoint) that he got better.
That's all i have for the moment.
Per
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TheHighWay
I agree... no need to invent dirt when there is already plenty to spread around.
What intrigues me in this, however, is that Watered Garden says they all realized he had Encephalites, and were doing everything they could think of to treat it... why do I never remember EVER hearing that this is what happened to Howard?
All I remember hearing is something like "ooooh Howard fell suddenly ill from some mysterious disease -- obviously it was the devil attacking him for standing strong with twi !!!"
Does anyone else remember them ever just coming right out and saying "Howard had encephalites, and we suspect it was from a mosquito or tick bite since they were out hunting and it was going around at the time."? Wouldn't that make the most sense... to announce the facts so folks could pray for the specifics?
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