I am blessed to see some posts from those who are successfully moving on and who hold on to whatever they got from The Way that was positive. The rest of us had better do that so we can let the ball and chain fall away. Because as long as we're still griping it's still around our neck.
I love you all.
I have moved on,but what about the poor ole still in bondage?You read this stuff,You made a decision,
So some of this stuff must be profitable.In my outlook there was a lot of stuff that was not good,The old
Who song?"Wont get fooled again"Anyone?Griping?We all need someone to lean on,we all need someone to bleed on,"Rolling Stones".
Maybe griping was and is good as "still in"twi I could never air my grieviences.
Welcome to the Cafe, that place where any five posters will have eleven opinions!
I hope you decide to stick around, and not just be one of those drive-by posters.
But having said that, it really grieves me that there appears to be little or no forgiveness on this forum. Maybe some of you have given up on God, which would be no different than the world is in many respects, how unbelievers trash God because of the behavior of some Christians. And I don't mean to trivialize the trauma that I cannot even imagine experiencing at the hands of people we trusted. But I gotta tell you, if you don't already know: If you keep carrying this stuff around you are only compounding the problem and hurting yourselves.
I disagree with you in that speaking up about the abuses of TWI helps, not hurts in my opinion. It tears away the veil. Granted, it could be hurtful, but it's hard to see the whole person from what you see posted here. Plenty of us live lives with little or no connection to what went on in TWI, but come here to vent.
There's plenty of threads on forgiveness. Many of us feel that since no one speaking officially for TWI has admitted wrongdoing and asked for forgiveness, there's nothing to forgive. Check out some of the forgiveness threads for more in-depth discussion.
And lastly, while most of the posters here are Christians, there is by no means a consensus regarding what that means or what the bible says about various subjects, and there is a small but vocal minority of non-Christians (like me), (who I guess would, in your terminology, be "the world") who don't feel constrained by any biblical standard.
I can only speak for myself...Are you asking me to forgive an organization that continues in it's evil and does not seek forgiveness? I cannot condone what they do and I believe it's important to let others know the "other side" so that an informed decision can be made and people can be helped.
I believe that much of twi's doctrinal views were harmful to people...from your initial post, I would surmise that you still believe in certain twi doctrines...you may discover that there are many here who hold different beliefs and have different perspectives...and that's ok, I would suggest keeping an open mind (something that twi discouraged...leads to "devil possession")...
I agree with you that bittereness can consume a person...but don't confuse bitterness with honest criticism.
I am blessed to see some posts from those who are successfully moving on and who hold on to whatever they got from The Way that was positive. The rest of us had better do that so we can let the ball and chain fall away. Because as long as we're still griping it's still around our neck.
I agree with most of your post, including the part about forgiveness. I believe, however, that you're prejudicing your post by implying that only those who have forgiven and continue on in a Christian life are "successfully moving on." I'm sure that the atheists and agnostics here feel strongly that they have "successfully moved on." Ditto those Christians who continue to rail against the evils of TWI.
Oh and BTW, we normally get a newby posting a mild reproof such as yours (chiding the denizens of the Cafe for their lack of forgiveness) about once a month. I don't know as if you thought so, but you're not breaking any new ground here...
Hmmm I suspect mike the organist that you have the best of intentions... and i have heard these exact words from other people who said it to me .. Not about TWI because I came out of that relatively unscathed but I was abused as a child and I can not tell you how many times I have heard those exact words from well meaning Christians... WHo have never been in an abusive relationship or organization.
they also like to tack on the forget it part too...(you know forgive and forget) really though I don't think God ever told me to forget about it... and forgiving some one evil is something you do after you forgive your self and that doesn't happen until the evil is out in the open and the only way to do that is to talk about it until it is no longer weighing so heavy on your heart that it rips you apart inside.
Well from one new comer to a long time lurker welcome and thanks for the advice but people are here for a lot of different reasons.. soemtimes to find old friends and sometimes to warn others and sometimes to find someone to talk to who had the same experience to see that they weren't alone and to make sense of it all and find comfort. Don't be too judgmental.. as they say... until you have walked in another's shoes.
But having said that, it really grieves me that there appears to be little or no forgiveness on this forum. Maybe some of you have given up on God, which would be no different than the world is in many respects, how unbelievers trash God because of the behavior of some Christians. And I don't mean to trivialize the trauma that I cannot even imagine experiencing at the hands of people we trusted. But I gotta tell you, if you don't already know: If you keep carrying this stuff around you are only compounding the problem and hurting yourselves.
Sigh.
Taking PFAL and speaking in tongues is no guarantee that 30 years later a person might not have a different point of reference and belief system. I sure do. The great thing about GS is that we can all still pretty much get along. If you *need* to have a Christian forum to talk about your issues, this prolly isn't it. OTOH, there are some extremely wise and knowledgeable people here that generously give of their time helping others. Your call.
Those people spoken of in these verses include all the church, not just the ones we like. Those people who did these things to you were all your brothers and sisters. The fact that they behaved in an evil way didn't cause them to lose their sonship. We are not going to live the life spoken of in Ephesians if we cannot forgive. I don't think I would be reading the continual rehashing of all the pain, the constant blaming, the incessant vitriol, the never-ending condemnation and self-condemnation, the two decades of failure to cope, if there were some forgiveness. You guys can rise above it. You all still can speak in tongues. Christ still resides in you. What pleasure or satisfaction can there possibly be in staying in the frame of mind I read here?
</snip>
welcome, I hope you find this place healing, as I have. it's done me a world of good to talk about what I went through without being condemned for focusing on the "negatives".
one thing you might want to keep in mind is that chiding people to live by a rule of twi or even one that you believe is a standard christian rule of conduct isn't going to help many people.
for instance: I don't believe those who worked destruction are my brothers and sisters. they just happened to be in the same screwed up organization I was in and had power to hurt. you can believe what you like, just don't assume that I must believe as you do because I took the same classes you did.
another for instance: speaking in tongues doesn't prove anything. vpw said it did, but so what?
we were told to keep quiet and be good followers, to the point that some of us nearly lost ourselves. people died and will never get to read the words shared here. I'm not going to live the life of ephesians because that's not the life I choose. I have been angry. I have been healed. I still get angry. I will continue to heal. I will always be disgusted by the machinations of the twisted men who built twi. I don't think I need to be healed from that.
it's not my responsibility to forgive those who so selfishly crushed my soul. if they want it, they can come ask me any time they want and will find that in the face of true remorse and change, I'm an extremely forgiving person. otherwise, they're accountable to whatever god they worship and while I remember less and feel less sadness, I do not forget.
I finally became a member of GSC after reading over this stuff on and off for several years. I am fully persuaded that everything condemning about the old leadership is true. It is frankly amazing to me that it happened though because I never had to deal with any of it. I never wanted to be in leadership and although I was asked to run Twig a number of times I always declined because I just wanted to learn Scripture, share it when the opportunity arose, play my music and support my family. So I was always at arm's length from it. I never went into the Corps, never went WOW, never went door-to-door witnessing, never got bullied into helping leadershio move into a new house, or anything like that. I knew something was wrong when a Branch co-ordinator wanted to see my pay stubs to make sure I was tithing, and refused my wife's gifts to their new baby because they felt they couldn't accept it when in their view I wasn't paying my bill to God.
But having said that, it really grieves me that there appears to be little or no forgiveness on this forum. Maybe some of you have given up on God, which would be no different than the world is in many respects, how unbelievers trash God because of the behavior of some Christians. And I don't mean to trivialize the trauma that I cannot even imagine experiencing at the hands of people we trusted. But I gotta tell you, if you don't already know: If you keep carrying this stuff around you are only compounding the problem and hurting yourselves.
Ephesians 4:31-32
Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
And be ye kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Those people spoken of in these verses include all the church, not just the ones we like. Those people who did these things to you were all your brothers and sisters. The fact that they behaved in an evil way didn't cause them to lose their sonship. We are not going to live the life spoken of in Ephesians if we cannot forgive. I don't think I would be reading the continual rehashing of all the pain, the constant blaming, the incessant vitriol, the never-ending condemnation and self-condemnation, the two decades of failure to cope, if there were some forgiveness. You guys can rise above it. You all still can speak in tongues. Christ still resides in you. What pleasure or satisfaction can there possibly be in staying in the frame of mind I read here?
I am blessed to see some posts from those who are successfully moving on and who hold on to whatever they got from The Way that was positive. The rest of us had better do that so we can let the ball and chain fall away. Because as long as we're still griping it's still around our neck.
I love you all.
Hi Mike,
You sound like you have a tender heart and I am glad it did not suffer at the hands of these leaders. I really am. Some have suffered greatly and their stories are heartbreaking.
Please just consider who inflicted the suffering. I mean really consider the men and women who hurt people in the name of God. Were they truly followers of the Lord Jesus Christ? Did they obey His commandments? Did they submit to His lordship and authority when they raped and drugged--when they abused and destroyed? When they tore marriages apart and children from their parents. . . when they humiliated and debased fellow HUMAN BEINGS in the name of God?
Was that His express will for them as Christians?
Consider who we are speaking of here. Christian men and women? Maybe on another planet. . .
You can never convince me that those who were so arrogant in their abuse ever belonged to Jesus. Their fruit exposes them.
By revealing the hidden things of TWI they are exposed even more. Should anyone consider taking their classes and come here first. . . at least they will know what TWI really is.
I finally became a member of GSC after reading over this stuff on and off for several years. I am fully persuaded that everything condemning about the old leadership is true. It is frankly amazing to me that it happened though because I never had to deal with any of it. I never wanted to be in leadership and although I was asked to run Twig a number of times I always declined because I just wanted to learn Scripture, share it when the opportunity arose, play my music and support my family. So I was always at arm's length from it. I never went into the Corps, never went WOW, never went door-to-door witnessing, never got bullied into helping leadershio move into a new house, or anything like that. I knew something was wrong when a Branch co-ordinator wanted to see my pay stubs to make sure I was tithing, and refused my wife's gifts to their new baby because they felt they couldn't accept it when in their view I wasn't paying my bill to God.
Hello.
A number of us also had relatively mild experiences in twi.
Not everyone was publickly humiliated or assaulted or anything.
The people who did those things were still wrong for doing them,
even when it wasn't us they did them to.
But having said that, it really grieves me that there appears to be little or no forgiveness on this forum. Maybe some of you have given up on God, which would be no different than the world is in many respects, how unbelievers trash God because of the behavior of some Christians. And I don't mean to trivialize the trauma that I cannot even imagine experiencing at the hands of people we trusted. But I gotta tell you, if you don't already know: If you keep carrying this stuff around you are only compounding the problem and hurting yourselves.
Ephesians 4:31-32
Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
And be ye kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Those people spoken of in these verses include all the church, not just the ones we like. Those people who did these things to you were all your brothers and sisters. The fact that they behaved in an evil way didn't cause them to lose their sonship. We are not going to live the life spoken of in Ephesians if we cannot forgive. I don't think I would be reading the continual rehashing of all the pain, the constant blaming, the incessant vitriol, the never-ending condemnation and self-condemnation, the two decades of failure to cope, if there were some forgiveness. You guys can rise above it. You all still can speak in tongues. Christ still resides in you. What pleasure or satisfaction can there possibly be in staying in the frame of mind I read here?
I am blessed to see some posts from those who are successfully moving on and who hold on to whatever they got from The Way that was positive. The rest of us had better do that so we can let the ball and chain fall away. Because as long as we're still griping it's still around our neck.
I love you all.
If all you're reading is posts in the "About the Way" forum, you're going to have
a slanted view of people's posts here.
If you think all we do in our lives is post here, you're going to have a slanted view
of our lives. Even the regular posters here have lives outside this board,
and those lives don't revolve around this board.
We don't sit in dark corners dwelling on the evils done by twi.
Hi, Miketheorganist
Welcome to GSC
Have you had a chance to look at some of articles and features here such as "actual errors in PFAL"?
There is some very informative material to be found in the non-forum sections of GSC.
At any rate, I'm glad you've chosen to join in the merriment.
Perhaps the games in "The Reading Room and Gallery" might interest you.
Or maybe the Sports Thread or the Doctrinal Forum.
Perhaps reviewing the other forums in the board will give him a slightly
better-balanced view.
Welcome miketheorganist...
I can only speak for myself...Are you asking me to forgive an organization that continues in it's evil and does not seek forgiveness? I cannot condone what they do and I believe it's important to let others know the "other side" so that an informed decision can be made and people can be helped.
I believe that much of twi's doctrinal views were harmful to people...from your initial post, I would surmise that you still believe in certain twi doctrines...you may discover that there are many here who hold different beliefs and have different perspectives...and that's ok, I would suggest keeping an open mind (something that twi discouraged...leads to "devil possession")...
I agree with you that bittereness can consume a person...but don't confuse bitterness with honest criticism.
twi put forth that even THINKING criticism of twi was "thinking evil."
We weren't even allowed to THINK for ourselves.
Now that we can, honest, open criticism is refreshing, and vital.
Not only that, but some people are eager to rewrite history, and pretend
nothing bad ever happened. If we let them, they'd put forth a diet of lies
and i have heard these exact words from other people who said it to me .. Not about TWI because I came out of that relatively unscathed but I was abused as a child and I can not tell you how many times I have heard those exact words from well meaning Christians... WHo have never been in an abusive relationshipor organization.
they also like to tack on the forget it part too...(you know forgive and forget) really though I don't think God ever told me to forget about it... and forgiving some one evil is something you do after you forgive your self and that doesn't happen until the evil is out in the open and the only way to do that is to talk about it until it is no longer weighing so heavy on your heart that it rips you apart inside.
Don't be too judgmental.. as they say... until you have walked in another's shoes.
Even though the poster who wrote the quotation above has only 36 posts so far, this person has  great understanding as to the why's and wherefores of GS.  Their post should be put up as a flashing banner at the top of the GS home page....
If you take into account the ruin left in the wake of TWI, the suicides because of wierwille's sex program, committed with the assistance of howard allen, rueben wierwille, and the other HQ's leadership and body politic, the rapes performed by vp wierwill et al and the misery of the aftermath of that for the victims, the ministry's pattern of teaching their leadership from those running the way corps to those running TWI in the USA to the many running twig fellowships who all partook in abusing women sexually and of the victims left behind, the voices of the aborted fetus' done with the urging of twi leadership that subsequently will never be heard, the abusers of kids at Rome City and their victims, the pedifiles sent to home areas to run children's fellowship with twi hq knowing exactly what they were and their small victims, the crushing of thousands of men's and women's souls by dropping them and kicking them out of their life's vocations while turning their backs to them-some dealing with the pain of that event for decades before coming here and learning the truth, the loss of families, college education, wealth, the robbing of tithes, the loss of children, not even to mention the made up doctrines taught as the word of god, and when you compile all the victims of said abuse and more, the destruction of souls, the many God chosen believers who were real ministers called by God and were productive for God at one time but became lost souls who found their only salvation in a bottle after wierwille destroyed them, all of this occurring at the hands of TWI, with their leadership's anti-love and anti-people doctines and practices, then, just maybe, when you take that into consideration with the destruction that followed, and realize victor paul weirwille was a false prophet in sheep's clothing, then maybe you too will understand the reason why real people feel the way they do about the way international ministry.
Please excuse the run on sentance-paragraph, my last point is, I resent any attempt to silence or censure the victims, they...we, have a right to speak out and uncover the hidden things of darkness. Â
TWI has never made an apology or admittance of wrong doing, their feet need to be held to the fire, they owe their victims their witheld justice... among other things.
We haven't seen the original poster here since this thread was first started, was their post for real or was it more of the why can't you move on flame bait?Â
It has helped me to talk to people who have been through what I've been through. Not just TWI stuff. I relate better when someone has been in the same place as me.
When I started the post on the Limb coord who was obsessed with the Young and the Restless and had a vicious wife, I didn't know that talking about it would make me feel more compassion towards them. But as I wrote about it and listened to other stories from other people, it really took the sting out of my memory of them.
Where else could I have gone to talk about that? For anyone to understand I would have had to explain the sometimes unexplainable about twi and my involvement. (That would probably take a thousand years!)
That being said, I understand where MTOP might be trying to come from. Someone once said that bitterness is like taking poison and hoping the other person will die. There is someone I used to be close to that relished being a victim. After many many years of being supportive towards this person, I couldn't take it anymore because nothing ever got better. I wore myself out trying to help, but this person would look for and cling to any thing that preserved the victim status. This person refused to forgive even the smallest of slights and made sure things were blown out of proportion.
For example, my husband and I took their whole family on a trip to see if a change of scenery would help. We paid for everything and let them choose all the activities. We also did all the work and cleaned up. I didn't get much sleep because I stayed up late making sure their needs were tended to. They had a lot of fun. But the wife called me afterwards to tell me she didn't appreciate that I had left candy on the table that her kids got into. She didn't want them having that much sugar it made them hyper. I apologized and said it wouldn't happen again. But she used that as an excuse to return to victimhood because, "It really put a damper on things."
Because I cared about them I still hung in there and tried to help. But I got to the point where I had to acknowledge that nothing we ever said or did was making a difference. They sabatoged any efforts people made to help them. (We were not the only ones who went through this with them.)
I realize this is an extreme example of basically unthankful and disturbed people. But what I learned from that was there has to be a point where things have to be let go, not for the sake of the victim or the victimizer. But for the people you are around and how your failure to move on is affecting them.
IMPO, if talking about things helps yourself and others, then it's OK. But if you are continuing to hurt yourself and those around you by refusing to let go of the past and forgive, then you do have a real problem.
So MTOP, I can see how it might come across that people are unforgiving. It's hard to know a person completely from just some posts in a forum. Just keep in mind that they just might be in a place where they need to say what they have to say before healing can take place.
She has also encapsulated why we need to speak out about the abuses suffered and have a place to do that. Â We all are on our own paths here, some have been here longer than others, some have deeper wounds than others, but there is no expiration date on healing and the need to express ones feelings (even the "negative" ones) and experiences. Â Also, to communicate and share with others who've been there and understand-all assist in the healing. Â I'm more concerned with the healing of those present here at GS than the exoneration of the abusers.
Here's an excerpt from Kristen's article:
"Initially, people may become depressed, if not suicidal when they come out of an abusive cult and take steps towards healing. The realization of their loss – the loss of time, the loss of identity, loss of one’s self can be intolerable. But depression keeps us stagnant. It slows us down; it keeps us down, locked in the cycle of oppression.Â
For many, opening the lockbox is a byproduct of anger. Anger is the vehicle that drives the truth into the open. The victim must not only feeling her feelings; she must see the cult leader for what he was – an abusive sociopath; not a loving presence. It is not enough that the abuse caused suffering. Suffering accompanied by resolve becomes the catalyst for change. One needs the spark of indignation that recognizes the unfairness and imbalance of power in one’s situation. Then one begins to puncture the membrane of silence that leaves one isolated from the world.
The code of silence is penetrated through one’s initial decision to heal and one’s courage to begin to tell the truth about oneself in a safe place. This, accompanied by education about physical, sexual, psychological and spiritual abuse allows the individual to start on the journey towards wholeness. True expression of one’s feelings, especially anger, makes healing possible. As one grows stronger, one may even expand the stage of disclosure to include the world at large....
Trauma experts have long advocated the necessity of “bearing witness’ to one’s abuse. Why? Because truth is acknowledged and affirmed in the context of community. Personal truth becomes understood when it is spoken. Lies keep one isolated and separate. Speaking the truth of one’s own reality allows one to belong to the world. One is no longer alone. But it doesn’t stop there. One must question destructive assumptions and become educated about individual rights.
The truth of human experience proclaims the imperative to live and be free, not to be in bondage. Just as a flower is meant to bloom, so people are put here to blossom forth in their true nature. One must believe one has the RIGHT to live in order to own one’s experience. When one realizes the truth of being alive (or its opposite – the mandate NOT to live independent of the leader), one is able to breaks the bonds of mind control. Negative assumptions become questioned through critical thinking and education. Once the right to exist is fully comprehended, then the right to bear witness to one’s life and experience becomes possible. Negative distortions of reality are replaced with positive assumptions resulting in one’s understanding of the right to be happy and free."
Great stuff Kristen...There are acute cases of abuse amongst the posters here, and also many posters coming through relatively unscathed....whatever the case is, we each have a right to continue to speak about the abuse and the abusers, for the healing of the GS community, and for those who will come here in the future....we each have a right to speak our truth.
I finally became a member of GSC after reading over this stuff on and off for several years. I am fully persuaded that everything condemning about the old leadership is true. It is frankly amazing to me that it happened though because I never had to deal with any of it. I never wanted to be in leadership and although I was asked to run Twig a number of times I always declined because I just wanted to learn Scripture, share it when the opportunity arose, play my music and support my family. So I was always at arm's length from it. I never went into the Corps, never went WOW, never went door-to-door witnessing, never got bullied into helping leadershio move into a new house, or anything like that. I knew something was wrong when a Branch co-ordinator wanted to see my pay stubs to make sure I was tithing, and refused my wife's gifts to their new baby because they felt they couldn't accept it when in their view I wasn't paying my bill to God.
But having said that, it really grieves me that there appears to be little or no forgiveness on this forum. Maybe some of you have given up on God, which would be no different than the world is in many respects, how unbelievers trash God because of the behavior of some Christians. And I don't mean to trivialize the trauma that I cannot even imagine experiencing at the hands of people we trusted. But I gotta tell you, if you don't already know: If you keep carrying this stuff around you are only compounding the problem and hurting yourselves.
Ephesians 4:31-32
Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
And be ye kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Those people spoken of in these verses include all the church, not just the ones we like. Those people who did these things to you were all your brothers and sisters. The fact that they behaved in an evil way didn't cause them to lose their sonship. We are not going to live the life spoken of in Ephesians if we cannot forgive. I don't think I would be reading the continual rehashing of all the pain, the constant blaming, the incessant vitriol, the never-ending condemnation and self-condemnation, the two decades of failure to cope, if there were some forgiveness. You guys can rise above it. You all still can speak in tongues. Christ still resides in you. What pleasure or satisfaction can there possibly be in staying in the frame of mind I read here?
I am blessed to see some posts from those who are successfully moving on and who hold on to whatever they got from The Way that was positive. The rest of us had better do that so we can let the ball and chain fall away. Because as long as we're still griping it's still around our neck.
I love you all.
Well Miketheorganist,
It seems to me that you've recieved quite a bit of feedback. IMO it seems to be well thought out and on the "patient forbearance" side of things too as far as the tenor of things directed right back at you.
But I hope that the idea of this "lack of forgiveness" that you percieve is in truth part of the healing process is catching on with you. In general IMO the bible stories are much more truthfull about sin and the consequences of sin than most Christians seem to be able to face when looking at other peoples' situations. And the exhortation to "forgive all" is often a misplaced (as far as actually doing anybody any real good that is) attempt to just not look at UUUGLY right square in the face.
When I consider the UUUGLY side of TWI as told here at Greasespot things from the bible come to mind such as "judgement by fire", "their mouths must be stopped", and "I will remember" as stated by the Apostle John. In many respects I feel that things are much more real here than in any other place that I know of that considers these things.
JEFF
P.S. You weren't just bating us, were you? (IMO a fair question, no offense intended.)
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frank123lol
I am blessed to see some posts from those who are successfully moving on and who hold on to whatever they got from The Way that was positive. The rest of us had better do that so we can let the ball and chain fall away. Because as long as we're still griping it's still around our neck.
I love you all.
I have moved on,but what about the poor ole still in bondage?You read this stuff,You made a decision,
So some of this stuff must be profitable.In my outlook there was a lot of stuff that was not good,The old
Who song?"Wont get fooled again"Anyone?Griping?We all need someone to lean on,we all need someone to bleed on,"Rolling Stones".
Maybe griping was and is good as "still in"twi I could never air my grieviences.
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waysider
Hi, Miketheorganist
Welcome to GSC
Have you had a chance to look at some of articles and features here such as "actual errors in PFAL"?
There is some very informative material to be found in the non-forum sections of GSC.
At any rate, I'm glad you've chosen to join in the merriment.
Perhaps the games in "The Reading Room and Gallery" might interest you.
Or maybe the Sports Thread or the Doctrinal Forum.
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Oakspear
Welcome to the Cafe, that place where any five posters will have eleven opinions!
I hope you decide to stick around, and not just be one of those drive-by posters.
I disagree with you in that speaking up about the abuses of TWI helps, not hurts in my opinion. It tears away the veil. Granted, it could be hurtful, but it's hard to see the whole person from what you see posted here. Plenty of us live lives with little or no connection to what went on in TWI, but come here to vent.
There's plenty of threads on forgiveness. Many of us feel that since no one speaking officially for TWI has admitted wrongdoing and asked for forgiveness, there's nothing to forgive. Check out some of the forgiveness threads for more in-depth discussion.
And lastly, while most of the posters here are Christians, there is by no means a consensus regarding what that means or what the bible says about various subjects, and there is a small but vocal minority of non-Christians (like me), (who I guess would, in your terminology, be "the world") who don't feel constrained by any biblical standard.
Welcome aboard, bro'
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excathedra
chapter and verse, please
hey, welcome. you sound like a wonderful person
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GrouchoMarxJr
Welcome miketheorganist...
I can only speak for myself...Are you asking me to forgive an organization that continues in it's evil and does not seek forgiveness? I cannot condone what they do and I believe it's important to let others know the "other side" so that an informed decision can be made and people can be helped.
I believe that much of twi's doctrinal views were harmful to people...from your initial post, I would surmise that you still believe in certain twi doctrines...you may discover that there are many here who hold different beliefs and have different perspectives...and that's ok, I would suggest keeping an open mind (something that twi discouraged...leads to "devil possession")...
I agree with you that bittereness can consume a person...but don't confuse bitterness with honest criticism.
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Oakspear
Chapter 1 of "In God We Trust, All Others Pay Cash" by Jean Shepherd
Verse 2 of "Love Reign O'er Me" on Quadrophenia by The Who.
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GeorgeStGeorge
I agree with most of your post, including the part about forgiveness. I believe, however, that you're prejudicing your post by implying that only those who have forgiven and continue on in a Christian life are "successfully moving on." I'm sure that the atheists and agnostics here feel strongly that they have "successfully moved on." Ditto those Christians who continue to rail against the evils of TWI.
George
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George Aar
Oh and BTW, we normally get a newby posting a mild reproof such as yours (chiding the denizens of the Cafe for their lack of forgiveness) about once a month. I don't know as if you thought so, but you're not breaking any new ground here...
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cman
Well pardon the hell out of me!
Who is not forgiving?
You don't name anyone, are you afraid to really get on the subject?
WTF do you know about forgiveness anyway?
You don't say so I will not guess as you have of others here.
Malice is more what I see in your post then anything.
So if your highness will join a decent discussion perhaps you will not be so blind.
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leafytwiglet
Hmmm I suspect mike the organist that you have the best of intentions... and i have heard these exact words from other people who said it to me .. Not about TWI because I came out of that relatively unscathed but I was abused as a child and I can not tell you how many times I have heard those exact words from well meaning Christians... WHo have never been in an abusive relationship or organization.
they also like to tack on the forget it part too...(you know forgive and forget) really though I don't think God ever told me to forget about it... and forgiving some one evil is something you do after you forgive your self and that doesn't happen until the evil is out in the open and the only way to do that is to talk about it until it is no longer weighing so heavy on your heart that it rips you apart inside.
Well from one new comer to a long time lurker welcome and thanks for the advice but people are here for a lot of different reasons.. soemtimes to find old friends and sometimes to warn others and sometimes to find someone to talk to who had the same experience to see that they weren't alone and to make sense of it all and find comfort. Don't be too judgmental.. as they say... until you have walked in another's shoes.
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Jim
Sigh.
Taking PFAL and speaking in tongues is no guarantee that 30 years later a person might not have a different point of reference and belief system. I sure do. The great thing about GS is that we can all still pretty much get along. If you *need* to have a Christian forum to talk about your issues, this prolly isn't it. OTOH, there are some extremely wise and knowledgeable people here that generously give of their time helping others. Your call.
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potato
welcome, I hope you find this place healing, as I have. it's done me a world of good to talk about what I went through without being condemned for focusing on the "negatives".
one thing you might want to keep in mind is that chiding people to live by a rule of twi or even one that you believe is a standard christian rule of conduct isn't going to help many people.
for instance: I don't believe those who worked destruction are my brothers and sisters. they just happened to be in the same screwed up organization I was in and had power to hurt. you can believe what you like, just don't assume that I must believe as you do because I took the same classes you did.
another for instance: speaking in tongues doesn't prove anything. vpw said it did, but so what?
we were told to keep quiet and be good followers, to the point that some of us nearly lost ourselves. people died and will never get to read the words shared here. I'm not going to live the life of ephesians because that's not the life I choose. I have been angry. I have been healed. I still get angry. I will continue to heal. I will always be disgusted by the machinations of the twisted men who built twi. I don't think I need to be healed from that.
it's not my responsibility to forgive those who so selfishly crushed my soul. if they want it, they can come ask me any time they want and will find that in the face of true remorse and change, I'm an extremely forgiving person. otherwise, they're accountable to whatever god they worship and while I remember less and feel less sadness, I do not forget.
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cheranne
Hi there! I have been out of twi for 30 years now,and until I die I will not shut up about
twi and its spiritual abuse(not to mention how many other people have been hurt in other
ways,families split,parents lost and suicides.
I can just stand still and watch my brother drowing in a sea of lies.
The first 10 years after I felt just like you,the poison isn't anger and speaking out
it is keeping it in!
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geisha779
Hi Mike,
You sound like you have a tender heart and I am glad it did not suffer at the hands of these leaders. I really am. Some have suffered greatly and their stories are heartbreaking.
Please just consider who inflicted the suffering. I mean really consider the men and women who hurt people in the name of God. Were they truly followers of the Lord Jesus Christ? Did they obey His commandments? Did they submit to His lordship and authority when they raped and drugged--when they abused and destroyed? When they tore marriages apart and children from their parents. . . when they humiliated and debased fellow HUMAN BEINGS in the name of God?
Was that His express will for them as Christians?
Consider who we are speaking of here. Christian men and women? Maybe on another planet. . .
You can never convince me that those who were so arrogant in their abuse ever belonged to Jesus. Their fruit exposes them.
By revealing the hidden things of TWI they are exposed even more. Should anyone consider taking their classes and come here first. . . at least they will know what TWI really is.
That is a good thing. . . a really good thing.
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WordWolf
Hello.
A number of us also had relatively mild experiences in twi.
Not everyone was publickly humiliated or assaulted or anything.
The people who did those things were still wrong for doing them,
even when it wasn't us they did them to.
If all you're reading is posts in the "About the Way" forum, you're going to have
a slanted view of people's posts here.
If you think all we do in our lives is post here, you're going to have a slanted view
of our lives. Even the regular posters here have lives outside this board,
and those lives don't revolve around this board.
We don't sit in dark corners dwelling on the evils done by twi.
Perhaps reviewing the other forums in the board will give him a slightly
better-balanced view.
twi put forth that even THINKING criticism of twi was "thinking evil."
We weren't even allowed to THINK for ourselves.
Now that we can, honest, open criticism is refreshing, and vital.
Not only that, but some people are eager to rewrite history, and pretend
nothing bad ever happened. If we let them, they'd put forth a diet of lies
that would leave more people to be hurt.
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now I see
Even though the poster who wrote the quotation above has only 36 posts so far, this person has  great understanding as to the why's and wherefores of GS.  Their post should be put up as a flashing banner at the top of the GS home page....
If you take into account the ruin left in the wake of TWI, the suicides because of wierwille's sex program, committed with the assistance of howard allen, rueben wierwille, and the other HQ's leadership and body politic, the rapes performed by vp wierwill et al and the misery of the aftermath of that for the victims, the ministry's pattern of teaching their leadership from those running the way corps to those running TWI in the USA to the many running twig fellowships who all partook in abusing women sexually and of the victims left behind, the voices of the aborted fetus' done with the urging of twi leadership that subsequently will never be heard, the abusers of kids at Rome City and their victims, the pedifiles sent to home areas to run children's fellowship with twi hq knowing exactly what they were and their small victims, the crushing of thousands of men's and women's souls by dropping them and kicking them out of their life's vocations while turning their backs to them-some dealing with the pain of that event for decades before coming here and learning the truth, the loss of families, college education, wealth, the robbing of tithes, the loss of children, not even to mention the made up doctrines taught as the word of god, and when you compile all the victims of said abuse and more, the destruction of souls, the many God chosen believers who were real ministers called by God and were productive for God at one time but became lost souls who found their only salvation in a bottle after wierwille destroyed them, all of this occurring at the hands of TWI, with their leadership's anti-love and anti-people doctines and practices, then, just maybe, when you take that into consideration with the destruction that followed, and realize victor paul weirwille was a false prophet in sheep's clothing, then maybe you too will understand the reason why real people feel the way they do about the way international ministry.
Please excuse the run on sentance-paragraph, my last point is, I resent any attempt to silence or censure the victims, they...we, have a right to speak out and uncover the hidden things of darkness. Â
TWI has never made an apology or admittance of wrong doing, their feet need to be held to the fire, they owe their victims their witheld justice... among other things.
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cheranne
Read the book "Losing The Way" and "The Cult that Snapped"
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excathedra
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now I see
Ok, what's the deal here?
We haven't seen the original poster here since this thread was first started, was their post for real or was it more of the why can't you move on flame bait?Â
Are you still there miketheorganist?Â
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finallyunderstand
It has helped me to talk to people who have been through what I've been through. Not just TWI stuff. I relate better when someone has been in the same place as me.
When I started the post on the Limb coord who was obsessed with the Young and the Restless and had a vicious wife, I didn't know that talking about it would make me feel more compassion towards them. But as I wrote about it and listened to other stories from other people, it really took the sting out of my memory of them.
Where else could I have gone to talk about that? For anyone to understand I would have had to explain the sometimes unexplainable about twi and my involvement. (That would probably take a thousand years!)
That being said, I understand where MTOP might be trying to come from. Someone once said that bitterness is like taking poison and hoping the other person will die. There is someone I used to be close to that relished being a victim. After many many years of being supportive towards this person, I couldn't take it anymore because nothing ever got better. I wore myself out trying to help, but this person would look for and cling to any thing that preserved the victim status. This person refused to forgive even the smallest of slights and made sure things were blown out of proportion.
For example, my husband and I took their whole family on a trip to see if a change of scenery would help. We paid for everything and let them choose all the activities. We also did all the work and cleaned up. I didn't get much sleep because I stayed up late making sure their needs were tended to. They had a lot of fun. But the wife called me afterwards to tell me she didn't appreciate that I had left candy on the table that her kids got into. She didn't want them having that much sugar it made them hyper. I apologized and said it wouldn't happen again. But she used that as an excuse to return to victimhood because, "It really put a damper on things."
Because I cared about them I still hung in there and tried to help. But I got to the point where I had to acknowledge that nothing we ever said or did was making a difference. They sabatoged any efforts people made to help them. (We were not the only ones who went through this with them.)
I realize this is an extreme example of basically unthankful and disturbed people. But what I learned from that was there has to be a point where things have to be let go, not for the sake of the victim or the victimizer. But for the people you are around and how your failure to move on is affecting them.
IMPO, if talking about things helps yourself and others, then it's OK. But if you are continuing to hurt yourself and those around you by refusing to let go of the past and forgive, then you do have a real problem.
So MTOP, I can see how it might come across that people are unforgiving. It's hard to know a person completely from just some posts in a forum. Just keep in mind that they just might be in a place where they need to say what they have to say before healing can take place.
I hope you continue to post.
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now I see
Kristen Skedg*ll posted an article on her website entitled, "On Breaking the Code of Silence." Â
http://losingtheway.com/main/index.php?opt...6&Itemid=30
She has also encapsulated why we need to speak out about the abuses suffered and have a place to do that. Â We all are on our own paths here, some have been here longer than others, some have deeper wounds than others, but there is no expiration date on healing and the need to express ones feelings (even the "negative" ones) and experiences. Â Also, to communicate and share with others who've been there and understand-all assist in the healing. Â I'm more concerned with the healing of those present here at GS than the exoneration of the abusers.
Here's an excerpt from Kristen's article:
"Initially, people may become depressed, if not suicidal when they come out of an abusive cult and take steps towards healing. The realization of their loss – the loss of time, the loss of identity, loss of one’s self can be intolerable. But depression keeps us stagnant. It slows us down; it keeps us down, locked in the cycle of oppression.Â
For many, opening the lockbox is a byproduct of anger. Anger is the vehicle that drives the truth into the open. The victim must not only feeling her feelings; she must see the cult leader for what he was – an abusive sociopath; not a loving presence. It is not enough that the abuse caused suffering. Suffering accompanied by resolve becomes the catalyst for change. One needs the spark of indignation that recognizes the unfairness and imbalance of power in one’s situation. Then one begins to puncture the membrane of silence that leaves one isolated from the world.
The code of silence is penetrated through one’s initial decision to heal and one’s courage to begin to tell the truth about oneself in a safe place. This, accompanied by education about physical, sexual, psychological and spiritual abuse allows the individual to start on the journey towards wholeness. True expression of one’s feelings, especially anger, makes healing possible. As one grows stronger, one may even expand the stage of disclosure to include the world at large....
Trauma experts have long advocated the necessity of “bearing witness’ to one’s abuse. Why? Because truth is acknowledged and affirmed in the context of community. Personal truth becomes understood when it is spoken. Lies keep one isolated and separate. Speaking the truth of one’s own reality allows one to belong to the world. One is no longer alone. But it doesn’t stop there. One must question destructive assumptions and become educated about individual rights.
The truth of human experience proclaims the imperative to live and be free, not to be in bondage. Just as a flower is meant to bloom, so people are put here to blossom forth in their true nature. One must believe one has the RIGHT to live in order to own one’s experience. When one realizes the truth of being alive (or its opposite – the mandate NOT to live independent of the leader), one is able to breaks the bonds of mind control. Negative assumptions become questioned through critical thinking and education. Once the right to exist is fully comprehended, then the right to bear witness to one’s life and experience becomes possible. Negative distortions of reality are replaced with positive assumptions resulting in one’s understanding of the right to be happy and free."
Great stuff Kristen...There are acute cases of abuse amongst the posters here, and also many posters coming through relatively unscathed....whatever the case is, we each have a right to continue to speak about the abuse and the abusers, for the healing of the GS community, and for those who will come here in the future....we each have a right to speak our truth.
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Seth R.
Hi Miketheorgasmist, wel-come to the G-Spot. LOL!
I'm Seth, I'm an Atheist! Wheeee!
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JeffSjo
Well Miketheorganist,
It seems to me that you've recieved quite a bit of feedback. IMO it seems to be well thought out and on the "patient forbearance" side of things too as far as the tenor of things directed right back at you.
But I hope that the idea of this "lack of forgiveness" that you percieve is in truth part of the healing process is catching on with you. In general IMO the bible stories are much more truthfull about sin and the consequences of sin than most Christians seem to be able to face when looking at other peoples' situations. And the exhortation to "forgive all" is often a misplaced (as far as actually doing anybody any real good that is) attempt to just not look at UUUGLY right square in the face.
When I consider the UUUGLY side of TWI as told here at Greasespot things from the bible come to mind such as "judgement by fire", "their mouths must be stopped", and "I will remember" as stated by the Apostle John. In many respects I feel that things are much more real here than in any other place that I know of that considers these things.
JEFF
P.S. You weren't just bating us, were you? (IMO a fair question, no offense intended.)
(edited for spelling)
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Oakspear
C'mon Mike, come back & play with us
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