Part of the problem is that churches very often don't teach much! I wandered in and out of various churches - nice people, but nothing of substance in the sermon, teachings or housegroups wishy washy ("well, I think it means...) and it's discouraging if you want to find out about the Bible, God, Jesus...but have no idea where to start.
Then someone comes along, gives you a short (but fairly demanding class) that gives you more information than you've ever had before, apparently supported by chapter and verse, and you have a nice housegroup that seems supportive and caring (and many were, at that level). You read more of the Bible and the collaterals and most of it seems to make sense.
And as you go along, you get more and more (self-)indoctrinated about others not knowing anything. You witness to people and although they say they go to church, they have some very strange ideas or beliefs...God sends disasters...God made me ill/gave me this disease...my dead relative is giving me information. You have also learned to view with some suspicion those who do actually know something.
And so, then, where else is there to go? Because everyone else seems to be saying, I think it means...or believing bad things about God.
And if you've entered the WC program, you've probably already given up a lot of other things and people, cut a lot of links.
But when you get out, you realize that you really do have a place to go, and that is straight into the arms of your friends and family, who welcome you back to normality with love and generosity of heart.
Great points Twinky! You do a really good job breaking down the process that we went through, and no doubt others are still stuck in.
What really stands out to me is the bondage and the resulting double talk to justify it. On one hand there is freedom in Christ, and freedom in this or that - they all claim to be free. But on the other hand they feel bound because there is nothing else and nowhere else to go. That does not sound very free to me. I guess that's what happens when an organization called the way international sets themselves in Christ's stead as those that direct the affairs of the "Church." They are supplanters.
Not to mention that most multi-level marketing schemes make these same sort of grand claims. Special knowledge, secret traditions all you have to do is ....then you need to.....now you should.....
Part of the problem is that churches very often don't teach much! I wandered in and out of various churches - nice people, but nothing of substance in the sermon, teachings or housegroups wishy washy ("well, I think it means...) and it's discouraging if you want to find out about the Bible, God, Jesus...but have no idea where to start.
Then someone comes along, gives you a short (but fairly demanding class) that gives you more information than you've ever had before, apparently supported by chapter and verse, and you have a nice housegroup that seems supportive and caring (and many were, at that level). You read more of the Bible and the collaterals and most of it seems to make sense.
And as you go along, you get more and more (self-)indoctrinated about others not knowing anything. You witness to people and although they say they go to church, they have some very strange ideas or beliefs...God sends disasters...God made me ill/gave me this disease...my dead relative is giving me information. You have also learned to view with some suspicion those who do actually know something.
And so, then, where else is there to go? Because everyone else seems to be saying, I think it means...or believing bad things about God.
And if you've entered the WC program, you've probably already given up a lot of other things and people, cut a lot of links.
But when you get out, you realize that you really do have a place to go, and that is straight into the arms of your friends and family, who welcome you back to normality with love and generosity of heart.
That was my experience. I've been involved with several interdenominational efforts in the decades since, and found much more love of God than I ever found in the organization called The Way International.
Love,
Steve
P.S. - I never really broke off all my connections with adventure gaming, so that was a route back to normality for me.
That was my experience. I've been involved with several interdenominational efforts in the decades since, and found much more love of God than I ever found in the organization called The Way International.
Love,
Steve
P.S. - I never really broke off all my connections with adventure gaming, so that was a route back to normality for me.
This is interesting. So it would seem that to be with the way international then a person trades volumes of knowledge (whether right or wrong is beyond the scope here) for very little true love of God. It would also seem to point towards the twisted "tough love" Craig Martindale and others used to talk about so frequently to justify their evil dealings. Slogans like "the love of God has teeth" come to mind.
Tough love is simply telling someone the truth even though they may not want to deal with it and taking actions, if necessary, to not enable destructive behavior. I.e. - alcoholics. It in no way infers harsh, legalistic treatment or suppressing dissension, etc.
So it's trading knowledge for bondage and potential abuse at the hands of a controlling, legalistic cult. I would rather church!
Great points Twinky! You do a really good job breaking down the process that we went through, and no doubt others are still stuck in.
What really stands out to me is the bondage and the resulting double talk to justify it. On one hand there is freedom in Christ, and freedom in this or that - they all claim to be free. But on the other hand they feel bound because there is nothing else and nowhere else to go. That does not sound very free to me. I guess that's what happens when an organization called the way international sets themselves in Christ's stead as those that direct the affairs of the "Church." They are supplanters.
Not to mention that most multi-level marketing schemes make these same sort of grand claims. Special knowledge, secret traditions all you have to do is ....then you need to.....now you should.....
*******My opinion*******
There is a difference between wanting God for who He is......and wanting knowledge. There is a difference between worshiping and delighting in God for being God....and delighting in words. Truth is a who....not a what....and truth has a name, and a voice.
If that truth is missing....what is really left?
VP used to say "It's the word, the word, and nothing but the word"....well then, that is what you get.....words......and endless disputes over words. The word became flesh...
I had to go through my e-mails to find this one. it's a quote from a current Way member and leader who had once been a friend of my father. He was replying to a notification i sent to him that my father had paseed.
He Said:
"I have no friends when it comes to God's Word."
I remembered that. I remember thinking what an A$$ he was. That was his entire reply.
There is a difference between wanting God for who He is......and wanting knowledge. There is a difference between worshiping and delighting in God for being God....and delighting in words. Truth is a who....not a what....and truth has a name, and a voice.
If that truth is missing....what is really left?
VP used to say "It's the word, the word, and nothing but the word"....well then, that is what you get.....words......and endless disputes over words. The word became flesh...
I hope they all find something better. :)
Awesome post!
Gen2 - yes, that guy is an a$$ - Sorry you had to have something so mean spirited directed at you, especially at a time of loss.
I had to go through my e-mails to find this one. it's a quote from a current Way member and leader who had once been a friend of my father. He was replying to a notification i sent to him that my father had paseed.
He Said:
"I have no friends when it comes to God's Word."
I remembered that. I remember thinking what an A$$ he was. That was his entire reply.
Maybe soon, he can say.. "I have no friends.."
that's generally where this line of thought goes. One swift kick on the way out of da organization, and all the friends some of these guys will have will be on a facebook site worshipping vp or something..
I had to go through my e-mails to find this one. it's a quote from a current Way member and leader who had once been a friend of my father. He was replying to a notification i sent to him that my father had paseed.
He Said:
"I have no friends when it comes to God's Word."
I remembered that. I remember thinking what an A$$ he was. That was his entire reply.
His ENTIRE reply was nothing more than a catchphrase from the way international?
Is he capable of thinking on his own anymore?
It doesn't SOUND like it.
I mean, a computer programmer can design a program that just spits back twi catchphrases
in response to e-mails, and those certainly don't think.
and.. really.. I can't find any educated words for these numbnuts past "morons"..
look what they threw away.. and all we wanted to do is to just go to friggin church.. you'd think it were a crime..
I mean really.. just learn a little about god.. make some kind of difference somewhere.. but NOOOOOO... it can't just be "that"..
Nope, they must demand the strictest obedience and control. And the result? Barely anyone left. And the morons say?...?? well, we are a faithful remnant.
In a really really weird kind of way I can understand this.. not that I agree with it..
it's a mixture of kaballah, christianity, spiritualism, a *very* small dash of scientology.. (even a fruitcake knows a little of something however SMALL).. reincarnation and the like..
And on that note I would like to thank reverend rivenbark and the board of directors for treating me so harshly when there was really no reason to. It's because of this treatment that I realized that there are many places to go and all of them better than the way international. I sure am grateful!
I had to go through my e-mails to find this one. it's a quote from a current Way member and leader who had once been a friend of my father. He was replying to a notification i sent to him that my father had paseed.
He Said:
"I have no friends when it comes to God's Word."
I remembered that. I remember thinking what an A$$ he was. That was his entire reply.
Now let me get this straight. Your father had just died, and this guy was one of his good friends so I figure he knew you from a very young age not to mention he is a good deal older than you. You send him a notice, just a notice thinking he might at least want to know about your father, his former good friend, and his only reply to you was this b.s. statement, "I have no friends when it comes to the Word?" Gen-2, I don't know you, but that really really p__ses me off!
This guy should have been blessed beyond belief that you even thought of him. And I think a drunk on skid row would have enough compassion to at least say to you they were sorry for your loss!
The statement you used to describe him actually speaks of him too highly. I won't commit the real description of him in writing on this post or Pawtucket may have no choice but to pull the plug on me.
I would like that first of all, I'm sorry for your loss. I lost my father too a long time ago and I know how painful that can be. Secondly, I'm sorry you had to endure this guy's insult. But, as Christ said, "They know not what they do."
No one has what TWI has - in a sense that is true. A plagiarized foundation, a legacy of adultery, a legalistic controlling culture, and an elitist attitude in spite of all of that. Yet in another sense, not so true. David Koresh had that, the Moonies and Jehovah's Witnesses do, and several of the offshoot Mormon groups. Wherever you see people with spiritual authority, a large ego, and low morals, they have that as well. And you see the sheep walking about as if in a trance as well.
Nowhere to go - an outright lie. As OldSkool shared, almost any direction that you travel away is a better place to go. Because you take back your life and the authority over it you relinquished to those who didn't deserve it.
There is a difference between wanting God for who He is......and wanting knowledge. There is a difference between worshiping and delighting in God for being God....and delighting in words. Truth is a who....not a what....and truth has a name, and a voice.
If that truth is missing....what is really left?
VP used to say "It's the word, the word, and nothing but the word"....well then, that is what you get.....words......and endless disputes over words. The word became flesh...
I hope they all find something better. :)
Well said!
I think the *greatness* of twi doctrine lies in the permitting, sanctification and justification of just about any perversion one chooses to indulge in without consequence.
It`s all good, this is the grace administration, anything as long as you can handle it....great stuff for anyone who doesn`t wish to have to make the tough choices in moral conduct.
I have come to the conclusion that those great teachings and understandings can`t be worth too darned much if the end result is the real monsters that were bred and flourished in twi, the doctrine seems to facilitate a wide range of abuses.
Remember when vp taught about counterfet? I think that he needed to create a distrust a lack of appreciation for churches, that what he taught was somehow special so that people would not find that what he was teaching was bogus, other wise once becoming familiar with the genuine love of God and people with no real agenda, that we might see right through his little charade.
He, and now they HAVE to persuade folks that their research is valuable, only available there, or people wouldn`t put up with the enslavement and abuse.
All you have to do is look at the damage wrought to know how valuable, spiritual, accurate or important their doctrine really is.
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Twinky
Part of the problem is that churches very often don't teach much! I wandered in and out of various churches - nice people, but nothing of substance in the sermon, teachings or housegroups wishy washy ("well, I think it means...) and it's discouraging if you want to find out about the Bible, God, Jesus...but have no idea where to start.
Then someone comes along, gives you a short (but fairly demanding class) that gives you more information than you've ever had before, apparently supported by chapter and verse, and you have a nice housegroup that seems supportive and caring (and many were, at that level). You read more of the Bible and the collaterals and most of it seems to make sense.
And as you go along, you get more and more (self-)indoctrinated about others not knowing anything. You witness to people and although they say they go to church, they have some very strange ideas or beliefs...God sends disasters...God made me ill/gave me this disease...my dead relative is giving me information. You have also learned to view with some suspicion those who do actually know something.
And so, then, where else is there to go? Because everyone else seems to be saying, I think it means...or believing bad things about God.
And if you've entered the WC program, you've probably already given up a lot of other things and people, cut a lot of links.
But when you get out, you realize that you really do have a place to go, and that is straight into the arms of your friends and family, who welcome you back to normality with love and generosity of heart.
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OldSkool
Great points Twinky! You do a really good job breaking down the process that we went through, and no doubt others are still stuck in.
What really stands out to me is the bondage and the resulting double talk to justify it. On one hand there is freedom in Christ, and freedom in this or that - they all claim to be free. But on the other hand they feel bound because there is nothing else and nowhere else to go. That does not sound very free to me. I guess that's what happens when an organization called the way international sets themselves in Christ's stead as those that direct the affairs of the "Church." They are supplanters.
Not to mention that most multi-level marketing schemes make these same sort of grand claims. Special knowledge, secret traditions all you have to do is ....then you need to.....now you should.....
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Steve Lortz
That was my experience. I've been involved with several interdenominational efforts in the decades since, and found much more love of God than I ever found in the organization called The Way International.
Love,
Steve
P.S. - I never really broke off all my connections with adventure gaming, so that was a route back to normality for me.
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OldSkool
This is interesting. So it would seem that to be with the way international then a person trades volumes of knowledge (whether right or wrong is beyond the scope here) for very little true love of God. It would also seem to point towards the twisted "tough love" Craig Martindale and others used to talk about so frequently to justify their evil dealings. Slogans like "the love of God has teeth" come to mind.
Tough love is simply telling someone the truth even though they may not want to deal with it and taking actions, if necessary, to not enable destructive behavior. I.e. - alcoholics. It in no way infers harsh, legalistic treatment or suppressing dissension, etc.
So it's trading knowledge for bondage and potential abuse at the hands of a controlling, legalistic cult. I would rather church!
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geisha779
*******My opinion*******
There is a difference between wanting God for who He is......and wanting knowledge. There is a difference between worshiping and delighting in God for being God....and delighting in words. Truth is a who....not a what....and truth has a name, and a voice.
If that truth is missing....what is really left?
VP used to say "It's the word, the word, and nothing but the word"....well then, that is what you get.....words......and endless disputes over words. The word became flesh...
I hope they all find something better. :)
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Gen-2
I had to go through my e-mails to find this one. it's a quote from a current Way member and leader who had once been a friend of my father. He was replying to a notification i sent to him that my father had paseed.
He Said:
"I have no friends when it comes to God's Word."
I remembered that. I remember thinking what an A$$ he was. That was his entire reply.
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OldSkool
Awesome post!
Gen2 - yes, that guy is an a$$ - Sorry you had to have something so mean spirited directed at you, especially at a time of loss.
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Twinky
You want to know God better.
You want to find out something about Him.
You want to make sense of what you already know, which may not be much.
You wonder where the exuberance of the early Christian church (book of Acts) has gone.
You don't see much that's different about church.
You don't see much that's different about church-going Christians.
You don't see much expectation that God is around and active.
You do see a lot of formalized activities
You do get conveyor-belted through a class.
You do get pushed into "speaking in tongues."
You do get encouraged to attend some other activity.
You don't get the opportunity to ask questions or to explore what you're being given.
You don't get encouraged to get involved in your community.
You don't get the opportunity to meet others from different faith communities.
You do get strong views about matters raised in the Bible.
You don't get the mellowness of Grace relating to those same strong matters.
If you don't learn the mellowness of Grace, you only learn the hardness of the Law.
And then there isn't any place to go except some other place that is equally hard and legalistic.
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Ham
Maybe soon, he can say.. "I have no friends.."
that's generally where this line of thought goes. One swift kick on the way out of da organization, and all the friends some of these guys will have will be on a facebook site worshipping vp or something..
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Twinky
What's not hard and legalistic?
Grease. Soft as grease.
The cafe. Even though we fight sometimes.
Gen-2, what a terrible response. A kind and compassionate word would've been nice. A word of comfort.
Romans 12:15 15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
Sorry for your loss. From your posts, your dad was a good man who cared a lot for you and taught you a lot.
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Ham
No place to go isn't so bad. At least its some place..
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waysider
Sounds to me like the time may have arrived.
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WordWolf
His ENTIRE reply was nothing more than a catchphrase from the way international?
Is he capable of thinking on his own anymore?
It doesn't SOUND like it.
I mean, a computer programmer can design a program that just spits back twi catchphrases
in response to e-mails, and those certainly don't think.
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Ham
and.. really.. I can't find any educated words for these numbnuts past "morons"..
look what they threw away.. and all we wanted to do is to just go to friggin church.. you'd think it were a crime..
I mean really.. just learn a little about god.. make some kind of difference somewhere.. but NOOOOOO... it can't just be "that"..
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OldSkool
Nope, they must demand the strictest obedience and control. And the result? Barely anyone left. And the morons say?...?? well, we are a faithful remnant.
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Ham
hmm.. and faithful to what.. perhaps only themselves..
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excathedra
if no one has what we have, god is really pitiful
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OldSkool
Faithful to follow Rozilla's orders.
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Ham
In a really really weird kind of way I can understand this.. not that I agree with it..
it's a mixture of kaballah, christianity, spiritualism, a *very* small dash of scientology.. (even a fruitcake knows a little of something however SMALL).. reincarnation and the like..
but I'm sure it isn't the right forum..
that's IT!
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OldSkool
And on that note I would like to thank reverend rivenbark and the board of directors for treating me so harshly when there was really no reason to. It's because of this treatment that I realized that there are many places to go and all of them better than the way international. I sure am grateful!
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Tzaia
This is really a great thread! Thanks for all the insight.
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Broken Arrow
Now let me get this straight. Your father had just died, and this guy was one of his good friends so I figure he knew you from a very young age not to mention he is a good deal older than you. You send him a notice, just a notice thinking he might at least want to know about your father, his former good friend, and his only reply to you was this b.s. statement, "I have no friends when it comes to the Word?" Gen-2, I don't know you, but that really really p__ses me off!
This guy should have been blessed beyond belief that you even thought of him. And I think a drunk on skid row would have enough compassion to at least say to you they were sorry for your loss!
The statement you used to describe him actually speaks of him too highly. I won't commit the real description of him in writing on this post or Pawtucket may have no choice but to pull the plug on me.
I would like that first of all, I'm sorry for your loss. I lost my father too a long time ago and I know how painful that can be. Secondly, I'm sorry you had to endure this guy's insult. But, as Christ said, "They know not what they do."
Peace.
Now there's a quote for my refrigerator! LOL!
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chockfull
No one has what TWI has - in a sense that is true. A plagiarized foundation, a legacy of adultery, a legalistic controlling culture, and an elitist attitude in spite of all of that. Yet in another sense, not so true. David Koresh had that, the Moonies and Jehovah's Witnesses do, and several of the offshoot Mormon groups. Wherever you see people with spiritual authority, a large ego, and low morals, they have that as well. And you see the sheep walking about as if in a trance as well.
Nowhere to go - an outright lie. As OldSkool shared, almost any direction that you travel away is a better place to go. Because you take back your life and the authority over it you relinquished to those who didn't deserve it.
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rascal
Well said!
I think the *greatness* of twi doctrine lies in the permitting, sanctification and justification of just about any perversion one chooses to indulge in without consequence.
It`s all good, this is the grace administration, anything as long as you can handle it....great stuff for anyone who doesn`t wish to have to make the tough choices in moral conduct.
I have come to the conclusion that those great teachings and understandings can`t be worth too darned much if the end result is the real monsters that were bred and flourished in twi, the doctrine seems to facilitate a wide range of abuses.
Remember when vp taught about counterfet? I think that he needed to create a distrust a lack of appreciation for churches, that what he taught was somehow special so that people would not find that what he was teaching was bogus, other wise once becoming familiar with the genuine love of God and people with no real agenda, that we might see right through his little charade.
He, and now they HAVE to persuade folks that their research is valuable, only available there, or people wouldn`t put up with the enslavement and abuse.
All you have to do is look at the damage wrought to know how valuable, spiritual, accurate or important their doctrine really is.
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