The final straw for me was finding greasespot cafe. About 1997 they had started telling people not to look up anything on the internet concerning twi. i held out for a few years. In 2003 I started searching and that was it....it all changed in the blink of an eye i was on the road to freedom. first thing I did was resign as an FC
and start looking to buy a house. also started drinking heavily because honestly i was pretty brainwashed and scared of what might befall me for leaving the "protection of the household"
also started drinking heavily because honestly i was pretty brainwashed and scared of what might befall me for leaving the "protection of the household"
Ya, ditto. I did the same for a while to try and numb out all the confusion and hurt from spending years accepting the way internationals distorted views on things and having all my "brothers and sisters" turn their backs on me. Now the confusion has turned to answers and an excited expectation for the new day that has dawned in my life since leaving the way international. I have also cut back on the booze. As for the loss of friends it has turned from sadness to a relieved sense of good riddance since they never cared for me anyways.
Ya, ditto. I did the same for a while to try and numb out all the confusion and hurt from spending years accepting the way internationals distorted views on things and having all my "brothers and sisters" turn their backs on me. Now the confusion has turned to answers and an excited expectation for the new day that has dawned in my life since leaving the way international. I have also cut back on the booze. As for the loss of friends it has turned from sadness to a relieved sense of good riddance since they never cared for me anyways.
Yeah, there's nothing like leaving a cult to find out who your real friends aren't. I remember thinking to myself that these people never really were my friends anyway, and they're just showing their true colors now. I remember thinking that I needed to get myself some new friends who were a better caliber of people. And once I dropped the egotistical condescending attitude towards other Christians I started to see better quality people around me in the same neighborhood that I ever found across the world in TWI. I found people from other religions who live far more of the intent of God in the Bible than the frauds I found in the Way. I found that there is a great side to humanity as well, not just an evil side. I'm so glad I'm not blinded by false teachings any more and the ego they stoked within my soul.
I found people from other religions who live far more of the intent of God in the Bible than the frauds I found in the Way.
Interesting...
Let me ask you: do you think that people who walk in the ways of God and Jesus, but know nothing and/or care not about God and Jesus, will find salvation in the afterlife?
Let me ask you: do you think that people who walk in the ways of God and Jesus, but know nothing and/or care not about God and Jesus, will find salvation in the afterlife?
It's something I've always wondered about.
I know you aren't asking me but I think that we don't really have an understanding of what it really is all about. I suspect that our limiting beliefs about who is saved and who isn't and how it all works are not very accurate.
I know you aren't asking me but I think that we don't really have an understanding of what it really is all about. I suspect that our limiting beliefs about who is saved and who isn't and how it all works are not very accurate.
By all means -- I was asking whoever wanted to share their views.
We (you and I) may not "really have an understanding", but others seem to be very certain: their answer would be no, no one who does not accept Jesus as their savior will be admited to God's kingdom.
By all means -- I was asking whoever wanted to share their views.
We (you and I) may not "really have an understanding", but others seem to be very certain: their answer would be no, no one who does not accept Jesus as their savior will be admited to God's kingdom.
True but I think our understanding of God is limited. And I know what you are saying I just think that GOD is a lot bigger than what "I" think he is.
I am not so sure Christianity has the only lock on salvation... (This is the part where I get pommeled I suppose) There are a lot of different religions out there who believe in a God. They have the same moral structure we have... why would God be limited by our puny understanding of him?
I guess really it amounts to the fact that the older I get and the more I learn about other cultures and their beliefs the more I think God is bigger than one religion and one church... and yes I still believe in God and Jesus and that he rose again so man could be redeemed... I just wonder if maybe God sent his message to all peoples and it takes a lot of different forms.. Don't ask for chapter and verse I couldn't even tell you chapter and verse to prove Christianity was the one true religion.
I just wonder if maybe God sent his message to all peoples and it takes a lot of different forms.. Don't ask for chapter and verse I couldn't even tell you chapter and verse to prove Christianity was the one true religion.
I pretty much agree with you. It seems to me that the world's major religions have common themes and that we all pray to the same God. But then, what do I know?
I wonder why so many people seemed to love and respect him so much.
Father figure replacement, maybe? Maybe that's generalizing but I think that was the "hook" for me. I didn't have a strong father figure in my life and VP appeared to offer that. I was as much scared of him as I was in awe of him. Of course, now I know how misdirected that was.
The ministry was just starting to switch from tollerance of Gays to witch hunting them..
I got involved in TWI in '74 and from the very beginning I was taught that being gay was the "next worst thing to being 'born of the wrong seed'" (whatever that is) So I never remember any tolerance of gays unless what you mean is that we'd let them come to twig as long as they eventually took the class.
We left in the middle of the night a couple days later scared we would be killed on the road. But we weren't and it would be nothing but better once we left.
Good for you!! Wa hoo!
And once I dropped the egotistical condescending attitude towards other Christians I started to see better quality people around me in the same neighborhood that I ever found across the world in TWI. I found people from other religions who live far more of the intent of God in the Bible than the frauds I found in the Way. I found that there is a great side to humanity as well, not just an evil side. I'm so glad I'm not blinded by false teachings any more and the ego they stoked within my soul.
The first time was in 1983. I had gotten married in 1982; the leadership wasn't happy with this because I was "supposed to" go into the 13th Corps. I was unable to get enough sponsorship money, so I didn't make it into residence. The woman that I had been dating and I decided to get married rather shooting for the 14th Corps. She was "supposed to" move into a Way Home with a married couple (she had 2 kids of her own). She and I talked to the couple about all 4 of us moving in together instead. The husband didn't like that idea because he didn't want to have to compete with another man as head of the household (I swear - his words). So we got married; the leadership refused to perform the wedding ceremony. Soon after this I lost my job and was unemployed, other than temp work, for about 4 months. The leadership gave us a lot of grief about it and we walked.
In 1990, as our children started reaching their teens, we decided that we wanted them to sit through PFAL. We started attending some Way functions and got sucked in, somewhat oblivious to what had gone on in TWI during the second half of the 80's. As the 90's went on, lots of red flags, lots of problems, but we were convinced, like so many others that there was no where else that "The Word" was being taught, so we toughed it out. My wife and I also began to have marital problems (some Way-related, some not) that culminated in us being put on the infamous 6-month probation in 1999.
We were reinstated into active participation in late 1999, less than six months before the lawsuit was announced and all the attendant craziness.
In response to being told to not look for information about The Way on the internet, I looked for information about The Way on the internet.
I spent a year researching Martindale's foundational class segment by segment and found numerous errors and began to find errors in Wierwille's work as well.
Little by little, the faith that I had in the truth of what TWI taught was undermined. With the supposed foundation eroded, I no longer had an patience for the wrong practice that was widespread. I started posting on Waydale & Greasespot.
I did not want to leave without my wife, still holding out hope that we could rebuild our marriage and get out together. So I kept a low profile, taught at fellowship and maintained an outward facade of being a wayfer.
The last straw though, was after a phone call from John Reynolds, where he directed me to my region coordinator Tom H******* in order to get some questions answered. Reynolds said that Tom H had been working the Word in preparation for teaching WayAP live and would be able to answer all my questions. hen I approached TH he said that he had no need to work the Word, that if the class was good enough for the Trustees it was good enough for him.
Eventually I was caught by the WayGB and told by TH (by phone) that I was no longer welcome at Way functions.
A rather odd choice, judging from all of your posts.
Not really. I was in full waybrain mode back then. Even though I was not active I was still clinging to Wierwillian doctrine.
So did you tell your kids "never mind" about they learned in PFAL?
My kids are pretty smart, they figured it out for themselves.
What was your reaction? Were you Hurt? Relieved? Angry?
In some ways I was relieved; I wouldn't be living the "double life" that I had been living for the previous two years. What cracked me up about the whole phone call was the wording. TH never came out and said "We are excommunicating you for posting on Greasespot" or anything like that. His exact quote was "You are no longer welcome at Way fellowships due to the fact that you do not believe that the Trustees are leading the ministry in the right direction". Really?
Then he started to give me instructions on things he wanted me to do, including having my wife call him later that day. My response was along the lines of "yeah, sure". He then told me that my reply did not convince him that I would do what he asked. I answered by telling him that he had just given up any authority he had over me and that I was under no obligation to convince him of anything.
The ministry was just starting to switch from tollerance of Gays to witch hunting them..
erkjohn, on 29 April 2010 - 07:59 PM, said:
I got involved in TWI in '74 and from the very beginning I was taught that being gay was the "next worst thing to being 'born of the wrong seed'" (whatever that is) So I never remember any tolerance of gays unless what you mean is that we'd let them come to twig as long as they eventually took the class.
Perhaps not the best choice of wording... Lets see I took the class in spring of 79 and there was of course the whole teaching about how it was an abomination but there was also you could get delivered or healed from it.. in fact at the very first Word in the Arts Conference which was I believe spring of 81 when VP brought the subject up as one of the presenters was supposedly delivered from the gay lifestyle. Vp talked about how you could be delievered from it, he was very matter of fact about it and was very respectful to the gentleman on teh stage. I kind of felt sorry for the guy being put on the spot like that but he was very open talking about his so called deliverance. Then on to how he applied the word in his art work he was in advertising. There was actually quite a group of people in TWI that weere involved in the Art world at that time.
Perhaps more of my perception of how TWI treated Gays as I lived out West .. Far from headquarters and with minimal Corps to regular believers ratios. In Idaho we actually had several in a TWIG and one of them was running the TWIG.. Right about the time we left it seemed the Ministry was changing their stance on Gays.. The limb leader told the guy he couldn't be a TWIG leader any more.. there was quite a fight.
I think fromthat point on I saw more and more anti gay teachings.
NOT sure what changed actually.. the only change was that it was about the time that Martindale was taking on more responsibility at Headquarters. Plus we then left in early spring of 83
In some ways I was relieved; I wouldn't be living the "double life" that I had been living for the previous two years. What cracked me up about the whole phone call was the wording. TH never came out and said "We are excommunicating you for posting on Greasespot" or anything like that. His exact quote was "You are no longer welcome at Way fellowships due to the fact that you do not believe that the Trustees are leading the ministry in the right direction". Really?
Then he started to give me instructions on things he wanted me to do, including having my wife call him later that day. My response was along the lines of "yeah, sure". He then told me that my reply did not convince him that I would do what he asked. I answered by telling him that he had just given up any authority he had over me and that I was under no obligation to convince him of anything.
Basically, if you question us, then we don't want you around, huh?
And isn't it funny how he still thought he had some sort of authority over you? Wha... what?
Actually there wasn't ever a final straw but there was one thing that stuck with me and ultimately contributed to my cutting ties to TWI.
The deeper I went in the word, Weirwille's word, to look for more meaning, I discovered that a lot of what the way international taught was not really the work of vp at all. Many of those quotations used to promote the word were those from another man E W Kenyon. The more deeply I studied the word the more unoriginal I found the material and how plagiarized vpw was.
At TWI headquarters they have an archive of sorts where on display are some of the people who influenced vpw and who he gave recognition to. Bullinger is there. Pillai too. But no Kenyon.\
Now that I'm thinking about it I guess there is a final straw then.
Actually there wasn't ever a final straw but there was one thing that stuck with me and ultimately contributed to my cutting ties to TWI.
The deeper I went in the word, Weirwille's word, to look for more meaning, I discovered that a lot of what the way international taught was not really the work of vp at all. Many of those quotations used to promote the word were those from another man E W Kenyon. The more deeply I studied the word the more unoriginal I found the material and how plagiarized vpw was.
At TWI headquarters they have an archive of sorts where on display are some of the people who influenced vpw and who he gave recognition to. Bullinger is there. Pillai too. But no Kenyon.\
Now that I'm thinking about it I guess there is a final straw then.
Was that "headquarters" or the "Fine Art and Historical Center" that had it?
IIRC, I saw it at the FA&HC.
Then again, I saw it around 1988.
If you saw it later, it may have been moved from the FA&HC to HQ when they sold
the FA&HC.
(Not that there was ever an announcement about the sale, but they've always been
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OldSkool
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waysider
Why did anyone ever listen to Jim Jones, David Koresh, Charlie Manson-----ad infinitum?
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soul searcher
He probably wasn't as charismatic as Robert Mitchum.
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penworks
No, come to think of it, he was no match for Robert but he was a close second... maybe...
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goalieredux
The final straw for me was finding greasespot cafe. About 1997 they had started telling people not to look up anything on the internet concerning twi. i held out for a few years. In 2003 I started searching and that was it....it all changed in the blink of an eye i was on the road to freedom. first thing I did was resign as an FC
and start looking to buy a house. also started drinking heavily because honestly i was pretty brainwashed and scared of what might befall me for leaving the "protection of the household"
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OldSkool
Ya, ditto. I did the same for a while to try and numb out all the confusion and hurt from spending years accepting the way internationals distorted views on things and having all my "brothers and sisters" turn their backs on me. Now the confusion has turned to answers and an excited expectation for the new day that has dawned in my life since leaving the way international. I have also cut back on the booze. As for the loss of friends it has turned from sadness to a relieved sense of good riddance since they never cared for me anyways.
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chockfull
Yeah, there's nothing like leaving a cult to find out who your real friends aren't. I remember thinking to myself that these people never really were my friends anyway, and they're just showing their true colors now. I remember thinking that I needed to get myself some new friends who were a better caliber of people. And once I dropped the egotistical condescending attitude towards other Christians I started to see better quality people around me in the same neighborhood that I ever found across the world in TWI. I found people from other religions who live far more of the intent of God in the Bible than the frauds I found in the Way. I found that there is a great side to humanity as well, not just an evil side. I'm so glad I'm not blinded by false teachings any more and the ego they stoked within my soul.
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soul searcher
Interesting...
Let me ask you: do you think that people who walk in the ways of God and Jesus, but know nothing and/or care not about God and Jesus, will find salvation in the afterlife?
It's something I've always wondered about.
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leafytwiglet
I know you aren't asking me but I think that we don't really have an understanding of what it really is all about. I suspect that our limiting beliefs about who is saved and who isn't and how it all works are not very accurate.
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soul searcher
By all means -- I was asking whoever wanted to share their views.
We (you and I) may not "really have an understanding", but others seem to be very certain: their answer would be no, no one who does not accept Jesus as their savior will be admited to God's kingdom.
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leafytwiglet
True but I think our understanding of God is limited. And I know what you are saying I just think that GOD is a lot bigger than what "I" think he is.
I am not so sure Christianity has the only lock on salvation... (This is the part where I get pommeled I suppose) There are a lot of different religions out there who believe in a God. They have the same moral structure we have... why would God be limited by our puny understanding of him?
I guess really it amounts to the fact that the older I get and the more I learn about other cultures and their beliefs the more I think God is bigger than one religion and one church... and yes I still believe in God and Jesus and that he rose again so man could be redeemed... I just wonder if maybe God sent his message to all peoples and it takes a lot of different forms.. Don't ask for chapter and verse I couldn't even tell you chapter and verse to prove Christianity was the one true religion.
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soul searcher
I pretty much agree with you. It seems to me that the world's major religions have common themes and that we all pray to the same God. But then, what do I know?
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Broken Arrow
Father figure replacement, maybe? Maybe that's generalizing but I think that was the "hook" for me. I didn't have a strong father figure in my life and VP appeared to offer that. I was as much scared of him as I was in awe of him. Of course, now I know how misdirected that was.
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waysider
It's one of those "you had to be there" kind of things.
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Broken Arrow
I got involved in TWI in '74 and from the very beginning I was taught that being gay was the "next worst thing to being 'born of the wrong seed'" (whatever that is) So I never remember any tolerance of gays unless what you mean is that we'd let them come to twig as long as they eventually took the class.
Good for you!! Wa hoo!
That's awesome! Thanks for sharing that!
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Oakspear
I actually left twice.
The first time was in 1983. I had gotten married in 1982; the leadership wasn't happy with this because I was "supposed to" go into the 13th Corps. I was unable to get enough sponsorship money, so I didn't make it into residence. The woman that I had been dating and I decided to get married rather shooting for the 14th Corps. She was "supposed to" move into a Way Home with a married couple (she had 2 kids of her own). She and I talked to the couple about all 4 of us moving in together instead. The husband didn't like that idea because he didn't want to have to compete with another man as head of the household (I swear - his words). So we got married; the leadership refused to perform the wedding ceremony. Soon after this I lost my job and was unemployed, other than temp work, for about 4 months. The leadership gave us a lot of grief about it and we walked.
In 1990, as our children started reaching their teens, we decided that we wanted them to sit through PFAL. We started attending some Way functions and got sucked in, somewhat oblivious to what had gone on in TWI during the second half of the 80's. As the 90's went on, lots of red flags, lots of problems, but we were convinced, like so many others that there was no where else that "The Word" was being taught, so we toughed it out. My wife and I also began to have marital problems (some Way-related, some not) that culminated in us being put on the infamous 6-month probation in 1999.
We were reinstated into active participation in late 1999, less than six months before the lawsuit was announced and all the attendant craziness.
In response to being told to not look for information about The Way on the internet, I looked for information about The Way on the internet.
I spent a year researching Martindale's foundational class segment by segment and found numerous errors and began to find errors in Wierwille's work as well.
Little by little, the faith that I had in the truth of what TWI taught was undermined. With the supposed foundation eroded, I no longer had an patience for the wrong practice that was widespread. I started posting on Waydale & Greasespot.
I did not want to leave without my wife, still holding out hope that we could rebuild our marriage and get out together. So I kept a low profile, taught at fellowship and maintained an outward facade of being a wayfer.
The last straw though, was after a phone call from John Reynolds, where he directed me to my region coordinator Tom H******* in order to get some questions answered. Reynolds said that Tom H had been working the Word in preparation for teaching WayAP live and would be able to answer all my questions. hen I approached TH he said that he had no need to work the Word, that if the class was good enough for the Trustees it was good enough for him.
Eventually I was caught by the WayGB and told by TH (by phone) that I was no longer welcome at Way functions.
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soul searcher
Thanks, Oak. Another story, another outrage...
A rather odd choice, judging from all of your posts.
LOL
So did you tell your kids "never mind" about they learned in PFAL?
What was your reaction? Were you Hurt? Relieved? Angry?
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Oakspear
Then he started to give me instructions on things he wanted me to do, including having my wife call him later that day. My response was along the lines of "yeah, sure". He then told me that my reply did not convince him that I would do what he asked. I answered by telling him that he had just given up any authority he had over me and that I was under no obligation to convince him of anything.
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leafytwiglet
Perhaps not the best choice of wording... Lets see I took the class in spring of 79 and there was of course the whole teaching about how it was an abomination but there was also you could get delivered or healed from it.. in fact at the very first Word in the Arts Conference which was I believe spring of 81 when VP brought the subject up as one of the presenters was supposedly delivered from the gay lifestyle. Vp talked about how you could be delievered from it, he was very matter of fact about it and was very respectful to the gentleman on teh stage. I kind of felt sorry for the guy being put on the spot like that but he was very open talking about his so called deliverance. Then on to how he applied the word in his art work he was in advertising. There was actually quite a group of people in TWI that weere involved in the Art world at that time.
Perhaps more of my perception of how TWI treated Gays as I lived out West .. Far from headquarters and with minimal Corps to regular believers ratios. In Idaho we actually had several in a TWIG and one of them was running the TWIG.. Right about the time we left it seemed the Ministry was changing their stance on Gays.. The limb leader told the guy he couldn't be a TWIG leader any more.. there was quite a fight.
I think fromthat point on I saw more and more anti gay teachings.
NOT sure what changed actually.. the only change was that it was about the time that Martindale was taking on more responsibility at Headquarters. Plus we then left in early spring of 83
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JavaJane
Basically, if you question us, then we don't want you around, huh?
And isn't it funny how he still thought he had some sort of authority over you? Wha... what?
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Human without the bean
The deeper I went in the word, Weirwille's word, to look for more meaning, I discovered that a lot of what the way international taught was not really the work of vp at all. Many of those quotations used to promote the word were those from another man E W Kenyon. The more deeply I studied the word the more unoriginal I found the material and how plagiarized vpw was.
At TWI headquarters they have an archive of sorts where on display are some of the people who influenced vpw and who he gave recognition to. Bullinger is there. Pillai too. But no Kenyon.\
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WordWolf
Was that "headquarters" or the "Fine Art and Historical Center" that had it?
IIRC, I saw it at the FA&HC.
Then again, I saw it around 1988.
If you saw it later, it may have been moved from the FA&HC to HQ when they sold
the FA&HC.
(Not that there was ever an announcement about the sale, but they've always been
secretive about selling off properties.)
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skyrider
Maybe....Human w/o beans is referring to the Founders' Room in the Auditorium.
IIRC, twi would sometimes display this material during events. On the walls, are pictures of these men like Rufus Moseley, KC Pillai, Bullinger, etc.
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Human without the bean
Where was the FAHC at?
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