I'm still thinking about this... What is the gain in looking like a cult? Is it the type of people you attract? Is it a way to isolate people once they are involved? (ok, that's sort of a given). Is it like a series of tests to prove loyalty? Because I don't think it really works as a marketing approach.
There were some things we used to do in twi that always made me cringe to explain to those outside twi - things that really looked cultish. Like .. the concept of two by two for everything while you were WOW or WD.
In the later years when I was in, 2 x 2 was standard practice for anyone anywhere, not just WD.. Although it was a little more laxed after LCM left so leadership wasn't pushing 2 x 2 to go to the grocery store anymore, you were still looked at with "those eyes" if you wanted to take a long trip by yourself or go on vacation by yourself.. Imagine trying to explain to your parents how you can't drive 10 hours to see them without having someone ride along..
I'm still thinking about this... What is the gain in looking like a cult? Is it the type of people you attract? Is it a way to isolate people once they are involved? (ok, that's sort of a given). Is it like a series of tests to prove loyalty? Because I don't think it really works as a marketing approach.
I don't think they wanted to look like a cult. But since you can't have the control they wanted without cultish type behavior, well, you have to make do with what you have.. Since they certainly were not about to give up control..
I'm still thinking about this... What is the gain in looking like a cult? Is it the type of people you attract? Is it a way to isolate people once they are involved? (ok, that's sort of a given). Is it like a series of tests to prove loyalty? Because I don't think it really works as a marketing approach.
For us, it was a cult.
For VPW, it was a get rich scheme.
The idea wasn't "to look like a cult". The idea was to make money, get people,
and allow victor paul wierwille to exploit both in God's name.
That it looked like the cult it was wasn't the idea-it was a side-effect of it BEING
a cult. vpw didn't care much if it looked like a cult- so long as he could spin it
The idea wasn't "to look like a cult". The idea was to make money, get people,
and allow victor paul wierwille to exploit both in God's name.
That it looked like the cult it was wasn't the idea-it was a side-effect of it BEING
a cult. vpw didn't care much if it looked like a cult- so long as he could spin it
so as to get more money and people. Which he did.
I agree. Looking back, you never see VP defending himself against the general public, but you often see him sppealing to the believers. What I mean by that is that if he said anything, it was to us. Sometines he would stomp his fist and talk about how much he was persecuted over the years. Or he would cry about how he was betrayed by his own denomination. He was always appealing to the "faithful". Why? Because we were the one's dealing with the public and bringing in the people, and generating the revenue. The man was not stupid. So, that's a long-winded way of saying that VPW could care a less what the general public thought of him or the ministry.
I'm still thinking about this... What is the gain in looking like a cult? Is it the type of people you attract? Is it a way to isolate people once they are involved? (ok, that's sort of a given). Is it like a series of tests to prove loyalty? Because I don't think it really works as a marketing approach.
I remember as a kid sitting in fellowship several times and all the adults laughing and talking about how everyone else was calling them a cult. The news, magazines, relatives etc. (What? We're not the #1 cult yet?)
Years later you go back to those same folks and say, "This is just a stupid cult", they'd be like "What? Nobody ever told me it was a cult"
Some of the more despicable practices of The Way, weren't common knowledge early on. In the early days I believe Time magazine reported on the Groovy Christians in California. The Way was getting pretty good press and youthful enthusiasm that marked them a cut above the other "Jesus Freaks".
There was no internet then. The ARPA-net wasn't but a sliver of what the internet would one day become and only seved the government and Universities. There were only 3 TV stations unless you were lucky enough to get one or more UHF channels in your area. If you weren't lucky you might only get one or two network channels. Many people were still buying their first color TV's. To the few that even heard of the Way, it was not much more than just another crazy Christian Youth Group.
People started getting hurt though, although that fact didn't get a lot of publicity, and a little counter-cult group started warning churches about the Way, relating to them the stories of people who had left the ministry for some very sad reasons. The Churches began to stock up on the little pamphlets and leaflets ("tracks") where they made them available to their congregations. The next time the Way really got any attention in the news, was over deprogrammers, anti-cult groups that kidnapped wayfers and helped them out of their cultish minds. The exorcist was very popular at that time and you know, those deprogrammers caught onto the idea of tying wayfers to a bed and "unculting" them. When news of this practice got out people that heard it were often split between sympathy for the Wayfers who were forced to undergo the deprogramming or for the poor parents that paid to have their cultish children (usually, legally adults) saved.... To many churches, some of the Horror Stories encouraged them to restock heavily on the anti-cult pamphlets. Books were written on the subject as interest grew. The books sold well in Christian Bookstores, but not really anywhere else. Cable TV began to be pretty common, but news was still mainly the 3 networks.
In the early eighties, which is where I started breathing, the internet went from an overly expensive fad with very few websites, to a cottage industry for those rich enough to afford "actual computers" and not early gaming systems Internet service providers were born, but few people that had home computers purchased Internet service and fewer knew how to even make a website, even if they had a story to tell. Though there were those few. The Way was still largely unknown to the general pubiic, and most of the participants in their programs wouldn't likely believe any stories published online (unless they knew and trusted the writer).
The overall net effect was that by the Time Dr. Weirwille died in 1985, The Way (if it was known of at all) was still not really seen as a cult by most, with the exceptioon of a few ex-followers and in religious, anti-cult books and pamphlets. Any news stories about the Way were minor and often only local.
From 1986 till WayDale emerged in the late 90's people started talking on their computers, and more people bought them. The Way Ministry has always seemed to be internet shy, relying on what machines they owned for office work and not "worldly chit-chat" but behind their backs, an information revolution was taking place, and they had failed to keep pace. Why, many of their own foillowers were buying those machines,... And they began talking. They began to assemble information. Some already knew the picture that was on the cover of the Puzzle box, but most only had a few pieces in their hands. The smaller websites of those days could not paint a picture as large as the one on the Puzzle's Boxtop.
As the pieces came together, thousands and thousands of Way followers left the Ministry. In the mid eighties, it was mostly leadership that heard from others they knew that left, along with those who heard from them what was happening.
At that time, The world began to see that the pamphlets and books had been right and the information began to show up compiled here and there, all over the web.
But I think that it wasn't really untill the Allen Suit and WayDale that The Way International was really seen as a Cult. The truth was loose now and the Way couldn't contain it and the Dominoes began to fall. People flocked out in the nineties. Today, about the only people who don't think The Way is a Cult, are those still involved in it's programs.
I don't think they cultivate that image, but they can't change it, no matter what they do. The only thing the cult image seems to inspire within The Way is paranoia of the rest of the World. paranoia and a sort of self-inflicted autism.
Gen-2 Just an FYI - there was no WWW to speak of until 1992. I was an alpha tester of Mosaic and one of the first non-commercial internet customers in my area - a major metropolitan area. We had a computer in 1982, but it just wasn't feasible to do anything online. Modems were incredibly expensive and so was online time. There was the occasional BBS and various discussions on them. I used to get UUCP feeds of various USENET groups, but my main connection was through FIDONET until the WWW was actually usable, which was sometime in mid '94. Before that there was Compuserve (very expensive), Prodigy, and early AOL. These closed systems weren't really for research, but the boards provided some insight into the workings of various religious organizations - mainly through their rabid followers and equally rabid detractors.
The big breakthrough book in the 80s was Walter Martin's Kingdom of the Cults. I found his requirements to be somewhat self-serving in that all non-trinitarian groups were automatically lumped in as cults. And I thought he was very mean-spirited. Had he not been that way, I might have paid more attention to what he was saying, but I personally couldn't get past the attitude.
At the twig and branch level, prior to the demand that branch leaders be WC, there wasn't a cult feel at that level. Definitely by the time someone decided to go WoW or WC, people started acting more that way. There were a LOT of us who treated TWI like church by only going once or twice a week, and kept out of all the inner workings. The few times I ever did participate at that level, I was so appalled by what I saw that I retreated from participating. My husband, who had done the college wow thing, twig coordinator, and AC, was not interested in participating at that level and as a natural born cynic, neither did I.
Also, back then (mid 60s-80s), churches did a lousy job of reaching out to young people. We were ripe for the picking.
I liked TWI because I didn't notice any sort of tracking mechanism (it wasn't out there for me to notice), I wasn't aware of a dress code, I didn't like church, and I was already charismatic from being involved in a pentecostal church. TWI was never in my face that much.
Gen-2 Just an FYI - there was no WWW to speak of until 1992.
UUNET - 1987 - 1996. USENET alt.* discussion groups were prevalent until the WWW started ramping up, which still was very small through 1992-even 1996. AOL had their spam CD's - one in every trash can.
Your summary and point are accurate. It's with the widespread bandwidth we have now that people's actions are hidden a whole lot less than they used to be. And that is a real problem for the cults.
He!!"s Bells. We didn't even have telephones in fellow laborers. That is, not unless you count the very expensive, very public pay phone at the local truck stop.
After reading all these posts, it is pretty evident that it was all about control. And if they could have you do one of those stupid things they could get you to do another one and another and another... Next thing you know, you were WOW or WD with a bunch of strangers in a strange place, completely isolated, and even easier to control.
And then you realized that everything you had was tied up into this organization - all your friends were in, you had alienated the ones who were not in, maybe you had married someone who was part of twi and you were afraid to get out because if you did, you might lose your family, too.
And you couldn't even have more than two beers to help you cope.
The overall net effect was that by the Time Dr. Weirwille died in 1985, The Way (if it was known of at all) was still not really seen as a cult by most, with the exceptioon of a few ex-followers and in religious, anti-cult books and pamphlets. Any news stories about the Way were minor and often only local.
From what I remember, the cult issue was gaining steam much earlier.
In 1975......some of my college friends wouldn't take pfal because their parents' church officials were labeling twi a cult, mostly because of the trinity issue.
In 1978, at the Sidney Fairgrounds ROA.....a group of people picketed near the entrance, claiming that twi was a cult. With bullhorns and some local publicity, twi was hammered for being a cult.
From 1978-82.....deprogrammers were actively kidnapping wayfers. Seems like there were eight to ten wayfers who went thru the deprogramming experience and told their stories.
Around 1980/81......Wierwille claimed from mainstage ROA that twi was the fastest growing CULT in America and the people applauded loudly. It was a badge of 'honor.'
When I was in fellow laborers, there was a young lady whose parents were actively trying to have her deprogrammed because they considered The Way to be a cult. (1975)
But I think that it wasn't really untill the Allen Suit and WayDale that The Way International was really seen as a Cult. The truth was loose now and the Way couldn't contain it and the Dominoes began to fall. People flocked out in the nineties. Today, about the only people who don't think The Way is a Cult, are those still involved in it's programs.
. . .
I don't know what was hidden . . . People left cause they were following someone else out. Leaders taking advantage of the situation.
I believe that way international has been considered a cult for years. I remember stories of old "way back" from the seventies of people being kidnapped and deprogrammed. In fact, I remember Rosalie bragging about the way international being dropped from one of the books that had it listed as a cult. In hindsight, the way international was probably dropped from that resource for being too insignificant to matter even though they are still a cult.
I remember that, OldSkool... Didn't R!co make some sot of announcememnt about how he had been contacted by so and so at the organization who congratulated him that they had been taken off the list - sounded like they had been friends for years!!
And wasn't the reason given that twi was taken off the list because twi was still around and VP had been dead for a long time, so the qualification of being centered around one charismatic leader wasn't met anymore?? If only they knew that everything is centered around the worship of the collaterals.
At least they got the lack of living charismatic leader right. Rosie is about as far from charismatic as you can get.
Personally for me THE places stating it was a cult were calling a lot of regular churches cults too and when I looked at the reality of the fellowship I was in and my WOW families and what we were doing it was not on the surface a cult....
Of course it was the whole time but I was young and what I thought of as a cult was not what I experienced in the late 70's to early 80's it wasn't until the end of 82 that I felt like things were getting overbearing for me... keep in mind that that pretty much coincides with my becoming a Corps spouse and spending infinitely more time with Way Corps people.
as a regular believer at the time I was in you, pretty much went to twig when and if you wanted... you took the class once and then if it was playing again you could attend it if you wanted.
As a WOW and Way Corps Spouse I was required to attend all the Classes. but Then I was in a specific program, with a goal of bringing more people to THe Way International.
when I first got in you never heard about Abundant Sharing where I was being a requirement.. but by the time I left it was being pushed that you were required to tithe 10 percent and you relaly ought to be tithing more than that.
I think distance from Head Quarters had a lot to do with that... Some of my worst experiences with TWI were when I was at Head quarters, at ROA.
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OldSkool
I assume this is rhetorical. Great post!
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waysider
For us, it was a cult.
For VPW, it was a get rich scheme.
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OldSkool
And a fresh crop of new women to take advantage of and a system to hide them when they became "unruly."
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JavaJane
I'm still thinking about this... What is the gain in looking like a cult? Is it the type of people you attract? Is it a way to isolate people once they are involved? (ok, that's sort of a given). Is it like a series of tests to prove loyalty? Because I don't think it really works as a marketing approach.
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TrustAndObey
In the later years when I was in, 2 x 2 was standard practice for anyone anywhere, not just WD.. Although it was a little more laxed after LCM left so leadership wasn't pushing 2 x 2 to go to the grocery store anymore, you were still looked at with "those eyes" if you wanted to take a long trip by yourself or go on vacation by yourself.. Imagine trying to explain to your parents how you can't drive 10 hours to see them without having someone ride along..
I don't think they wanted to look like a cult. But since you can't have the control they wanted without cultish type behavior, well, you have to make do with what you have.. Since they certainly were not about to give up control..
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Ham
who says they didn't?
IMO.. all religions are cults.. we just happened to pick one that was not quite benevolent..
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Gen-2
So,... just as with Jobs you pick, when you pick a cult,... er, religion, make sure you pick one with lots of bennies!
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WordWolf
The idea wasn't "to look like a cult". The idea was to make money, get people,
and allow victor paul wierwille to exploit both in God's name.
That it looked like the cult it was wasn't the idea-it was a side-effect of it BEING
a cult. vpw didn't care much if it looked like a cult- so long as he could spin it
so as to get more money and people. Which he did.
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Broken Arrow
I agree. Looking back, you never see VP defending himself against the general public, but you often see him sppealing to the believers. What I mean by that is that if he said anything, it was to us. Sometines he would stomp his fist and talk about how much he was persecuted over the years. Or he would cry about how he was betrayed by his own denomination. He was always appealing to the "faithful". Why? Because we were the one's dealing with the public and bringing in the people, and generating the revenue. The man was not stupid. So, that's a long-winded way of saying that VPW could care a less what the general public thought of him or the ministry.
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Bolshevik
I remember as a kid sitting in fellowship several times and all the adults laughing and talking about how everyone else was calling them a cult. The news, magazines, relatives etc. (What? We're not the #1 cult yet?)
Years later you go back to those same folks and say, "This is just a stupid cult", they'd be like "What? Nobody ever told me it was a cult"
Bunch of vpw wannabes.
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Gen-2
Some of the more despicable practices of The Way, weren't common knowledge early on. In the early days I believe Time magazine reported on the Groovy Christians in California. The Way was getting pretty good press and youthful enthusiasm that marked them a cut above the other "Jesus Freaks".
There was no internet then. The ARPA-net wasn't but a sliver of what the internet would one day become and only seved the government and Universities. There were only 3 TV stations unless you were lucky enough to get one or more UHF channels in your area. If you weren't lucky you might only get one or two network channels. Many people were still buying their first color TV's. To the few that even heard of the Way, it was not much more than just another crazy Christian Youth Group.
People started getting hurt though, although that fact didn't get a lot of publicity, and a little counter-cult group started warning churches about the Way, relating to them the stories of people who had left the ministry for some very sad reasons. The Churches began to stock up on the little pamphlets and leaflets ("tracks") where they made them available to their congregations. The next time the Way really got any attention in the news, was over deprogrammers, anti-cult groups that kidnapped wayfers and helped them out of their cultish minds. The exorcist was very popular at that time and you know, those deprogrammers caught onto the idea of tying wayfers to a bed and "unculting" them. When news of this practice got out people that heard it were often split between sympathy for the Wayfers who were forced to undergo the deprogramming or for the poor parents that paid to have their cultish children (usually, legally adults) saved.... To many churches, some of the Horror Stories encouraged them to restock heavily on the anti-cult pamphlets. Books were written on the subject as interest grew. The books sold well in Christian Bookstores, but not really anywhere else. Cable TV began to be pretty common, but news was still mainly the 3 networks.
In the early eighties, which is where I started breathing, the internet went from an overly expensive fad with very few websites, to a cottage industry for those rich enough to afford "actual computers" and not early gaming systems Internet service providers were born, but few people that had home computers purchased Internet service and fewer knew how to even make a website, even if they had a story to tell. Though there were those few. The Way was still largely unknown to the general pubiic, and most of the participants in their programs wouldn't likely believe any stories published online (unless they knew and trusted the writer).
The overall net effect was that by the Time Dr. Weirwille died in 1985, The Way (if it was known of at all) was still not really seen as a cult by most, with the exceptioon of a few ex-followers and in religious, anti-cult books and pamphlets. Any news stories about the Way were minor and often only local.
From 1986 till WayDale emerged in the late 90's people started talking on their computers, and more people bought them. The Way Ministry has always seemed to be internet shy, relying on what machines they owned for office work and not "worldly chit-chat" but behind their backs, an information revolution was taking place, and they had failed to keep pace. Why, many of their own foillowers were buying those machines,... And they began talking. They began to assemble information. Some already knew the picture that was on the cover of the Puzzle box, but most only had a few pieces in their hands. The smaller websites of those days could not paint a picture as large as the one on the Puzzle's Boxtop.
As the pieces came together, thousands and thousands of Way followers left the Ministry. In the mid eighties, it was mostly leadership that heard from others they knew that left, along with those who heard from them what was happening.
At that time, The world began to see that the pamphlets and books had been right and the information began to show up compiled here and there, all over the web.
But I think that it wasn't really untill the Allen Suit and WayDale that The Way International was really seen as a Cult. The truth was loose now and the Way couldn't contain it and the Dominoes began to fall. People flocked out in the nineties. Today, about the only people who don't think The Way is a Cult, are those still involved in it's programs.
I don't think they cultivate that image, but they can't change it, no matter what they do. The only thing the cult image seems to inspire within The Way is paranoia of the rest of the World. paranoia and a sort of self-inflicted autism.
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Tzaia
Gen-2 Just an FYI - there was no WWW to speak of until 1992. I was an alpha tester of Mosaic and one of the first non-commercial internet customers in my area - a major metropolitan area. We had a computer in 1982, but it just wasn't feasible to do anything online. Modems were incredibly expensive and so was online time. There was the occasional BBS and various discussions on them. I used to get UUCP feeds of various USENET groups, but my main connection was through FIDONET until the WWW was actually usable, which was sometime in mid '94. Before that there was Compuserve (very expensive), Prodigy, and early AOL. These closed systems weren't really for research, but the boards provided some insight into the workings of various religious organizations - mainly through their rabid followers and equally rabid detractors.
The big breakthrough book in the 80s was Walter Martin's Kingdom of the Cults. I found his requirements to be somewhat self-serving in that all non-trinitarian groups were automatically lumped in as cults. And I thought he was very mean-spirited. Had he not been that way, I might have paid more attention to what he was saying, but I personally couldn't get past the attitude.
At the twig and branch level, prior to the demand that branch leaders be WC, there wasn't a cult feel at that level. Definitely by the time someone decided to go WoW or WC, people started acting more that way. There were a LOT of us who treated TWI like church by only going once or twice a week, and kept out of all the inner workings. The few times I ever did participate at that level, I was so appalled by what I saw that I retreated from participating. My husband, who had done the college wow thing, twig coordinator, and AC, was not interested in participating at that level and as a natural born cynic, neither did I.
Also, back then (mid 60s-80s), churches did a lousy job of reaching out to young people. We were ripe for the picking.
I liked TWI because I didn't notice any sort of tracking mechanism (it wasn't out there for me to notice), I wasn't aware of a dress code, I didn't like church, and I was already charismatic from being involved in a pentecostal church. TWI was never in my face that much.
Ironically, I became MORE involved in a splinter.
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chockfull
UUNET - 1987 - 1996. USENET alt.* discussion groups were prevalent until the WWW started ramping up, which still was very small through 1992-even 1996. AOL had their spam CD's - one in every trash can.
Your summary and point are accurate. It's with the widespread bandwidth we have now that people's actions are hidden a whole lot less than they used to be. And that is a real problem for the cults.
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waysider
Internet???
He!!"s Bells. We didn't even have telephones in fellow laborers. That is, not unless you count the very expensive, very public pay phone at the local truck stop.
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JavaJane
After reading all these posts, it is pretty evident that it was all about control. And if they could have you do one of those stupid things they could get you to do another one and another and another... Next thing you know, you were WOW or WD with a bunch of strangers in a strange place, completely isolated, and even easier to control.
And then you realized that everything you had was tied up into this organization - all your friends were in, you had alienated the ones who were not in, maybe you had married someone who was part of twi and you were afraid to get out because if you did, you might lose your family, too.
And you couldn't even have more than two beers to help you cope.
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skyrider
From what I remember, the cult issue was gaining steam much earlier.
In 1975......some of my college friends wouldn't take pfal because their parents' church officials were labeling twi a cult, mostly because of the trinity issue.
In 1978, at the Sidney Fairgrounds ROA.....a group of people picketed near the entrance, claiming that twi was a cult. With bullhorns and some local publicity, twi was hammered for being a cult.
From 1978-82.....deprogrammers were actively kidnapping wayfers. Seems like there were eight to ten wayfers who went thru the deprogramming experience and told their stories.
Around 1980/81......Wierwille claimed from mainstage ROA that twi was the fastest growing CULT in America and the people applauded loudly. It was a badge of 'honor.'
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waysider
When I was in fellow laborers, there was a young lady whose parents were actively trying to have her deprogrammed because they considered The Way to be a cult. (1975)
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Ham
If you are thinking amphetamines.. maybe that wouldn't be so bad..
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Bolshevik
I don't know what was hidden . . . People left cause they were following someone else out. Leaders taking advantage of the situation.
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OldSkool
I believe that way international has been considered a cult for years. I remember stories of old "way back" from the seventies of people being kidnapped and deprogrammed. In fact, I remember Rosalie bragging about the way international being dropped from one of the books that had it listed as a cult. In hindsight, the way international was probably dropped from that resource for being too insignificant to matter even though they are still a cult.
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JavaJane
I remember that, OldSkool... Didn't R!co make some sot of announcememnt about how he had been contacted by so and so at the organization who congratulated him that they had been taken off the list - sounded like they had been friends for years!!
And wasn't the reason given that twi was taken off the list because twi was still around and VP had been dead for a long time, so the qualification of being centered around one charismatic leader wasn't met anymore?? If only they knew that everything is centered around the worship of the collaterals.
At least they got the lack of living charismatic leader right. Rosie is about as far from charismatic as you can get.
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OldSkool
Rosalie is like a twisted version of Weekend at Bernie's.
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leafytwiglet
Personally for me THE places stating it was a cult were calling a lot of regular churches cults too and when I looked at the reality of the fellowship I was in and my WOW families and what we were doing it was not on the surface a cult....
Of course it was the whole time but I was young and what I thought of as a cult was not what I experienced in the late 70's to early 80's it wasn't until the end of 82 that I felt like things were getting overbearing for me... keep in mind that that pretty much coincides with my becoming a Corps spouse and spending infinitely more time with Way Corps people.
as a regular believer at the time I was in you, pretty much went to twig when and if you wanted... you took the class once and then if it was playing again you could attend it if you wanted.
As a WOW and Way Corps Spouse I was required to attend all the Classes. but Then I was in a specific program, with a goal of bringing more people to THe Way International.
when I first got in you never heard about Abundant Sharing where I was being a requirement.. but by the time I left it was being pushed that you were required to tithe 10 percent and you relaly ought to be tithing more than that.
I think distance from Head Quarters had a lot to do with that... Some of my worst experiences with TWI were when I was at Head quarters, at ROA.
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OldSkool
Whited sepulcher comes to mind.
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