IMO - being right ties onto the sales pitch used to promote the classes they are selling. And to them table etiquette is the pinnacle of love. Shallow well.
Very good. yeah, God says we don't have that "being right" part down. Wrong people need saving, that's us in a nutshell !!
But He did ask us to do all we can about that being loving part, with our whole heart soul mind and strength. He looks at our hearts, our thoughts, our intents. He knows us all too well. He knows we won't always get it right. That's why love is so important. Each of us is truly capable of having our "moments" when we are loving, and it's probably why He doesn't just give up on us, but decided we were worth His effort. We're most like God when we love, no matter how right or wrong. and we're only occasionally like God when we're "right".
Just looking at David a man after God's own heart. Had an affair, got her pregnant, killed the husband. Taxed the people against God's will. He wasn't definitly not right. Wasn't loving then either. There are also places after he ruled where it says that something required by the law was done..."as it hadn't been done since the time of the Judges." The time of Judges was prior to David, so David didn't do it. Yet God loved him. So God seems to think the heart is more important than the action.
When I did a word study of "logos" I came up with a working definition at least for my own use. Logos = not only the word spoken but the heart and reason behind what was spoken. If you miss the reason and heart, which is love, then it's wrong even if it is right every other way.
Just looking at David a man after God's own heart. Had an affair, got her pregnant, killed the husband. Taxed the people against God's will. He wasn't definitly not right. Wasn't loving then either. There are also places after he ruled where it says that something required by the law was done..."as it hadn't been done since the time of the Judges." The time of Judges was prior to David, so David didn't do it. Yet God loved him. So God seems to think the heart is more important than the action.
When I did a word study of "logos" I came up with a working definition at least for my own use. Logos = not only the word spoken but the heart and reason behind what was spoken. If you miss the reason and heart, which is love, then it's wrong even if it is right every other way.
Yep. On David, and this may be a little off topic. David REPENTED of his evil. He wanted forgiveness. I have heard so many parallells between Victor Paul Wierwille and Craig Martindale's sins and David's sins. And yes David appears the worse. But David admitted he was wrong and asked for forgiveness from his God. And he got it. So to me the records of David illustrates his sins, but they pale in comparison to God's grace, mercy, and forgiveness. And how many of the Psalms express just that!
The way international has asked no one forgiveness. They have not apologized. And by all accounts, they think they are right in the things they persist. Neither Victor Paul Wierwille, nor Craig Martindale, nor Rosie Red Rivenbark have ever come out and tried to reconcile the sins they carry. And so the difference is glaring.
Kieth, I do not think you are drawing that comparison - for the record.
"[Yet mere] knowledge causes people to be puffed up (to bear themselves loftily and be proud), but love (affection and goodwill and benevolence) edifies and builds up and encourages one to grow [to his full stature]."
Sometimes it's easy to BE right...in your actions.
But to DO right isn't always so easy.
So it's your right of way at the road junction. What do you do? Charge across anyway, and mow down the little old lady with the walking stick?
It's your right of way at the next junction. What do you do? Shoot across and get hit by a red-light jumper? Sue him from your hospital bed?
Your son went out and got drunk. What do you do? Thrash him halfway to death, in hopes he won't do it again?
You find out a stash of drugs in your other son's room. What do you do? Lecture him? Throw him out? Confine him to the home?
Your daughter comes home and tells you she's four months pregnant. What do you do? Turn her out into the street? Confine her to the home? Ban her from seeing the father again? Make her marry the father?
Your spouse is having an affair. What do you do? Kick him/her out, get a divorce? Sit down together to consider where your marriage is unsatisfactory and whether it's repairable?
Some of the alternatives are "justifiable" but they aren't necessarily right.
You can "do" all the right things and indeed there are many records in the Bible of where people did the right actions - but their heart was "far from" God.
If you're not being loving (however you interpret that), can you even be right, in God's eyes?
One WC wife I knew told the story of how she "got in the Word" - she decided to sign the green card because she wanted to "be right."
Sounds like somebody I know. She joined the Way because the Wow people who recruited her "had something", and she "wanted what they had." (Her words.)
Sometimes it's easy to BE right...in your actions.
But to DO right isn't always so easy.
.
.
.
If you're not being loving (however you interpret that), can you even be right, in God's eyes?
My mother beleives she's doing the "right" thing by letting my underemployed heroin addict brother live in her house. I told her the right thing to do would be to kick his lazy azz out on the street.
Real quick since I'm sneaking onto GSC when I should be working... Remember the "Sonship Right TM" teachings on righteousness? Didn't LCM interpret "righteousness" to mean "right living"?
(And I am WORKING HEARTILY TO THE LORD, for any judgemental lurkers.)
Yep. On David, and this may be a little off topic. David REPENTED of his evil. He wanted forgiveness. I have heard so many parallells between Victor Paul Wierwille and Craig Martindale's sins and David's sins. And yes David appears the worse. But David admitted he was wrong and asked for forgiveness from his God. And he got it. So to me the records of David illustrates his sins, but they pale in comparison to God's grace, mercy, and forgiveness. And how many of the Psalms express just that!
The way international has asked no one forgiveness. They have not apologized. And by all accounts, they think they are right in the things they persist. Neither Victor Paul Wierwille, nor Craig Martindale, nor Rosie Red Rivenbark have ever come out and tried to reconcile the sins they carry. And so the difference is glaring.
Kieth, I do not think you are drawing that comparison - for the record.
Your right, I'm not trying to compare David to TWI, but to show that God put more stock in a persons heart than their being right about everything. Perhaps I should have just used the "as it had not been done since the time of the Judges" example since that related to the topic better than the other examples. If all the law and prophets hang on loving God first with all your heart, soul and strenght and loving your neigbor as yourself. It sees Jesus has already answered that question. Love is the most important. Same seems to be true in I Cor 13. It's nice to know stuff, but without love, it's just stuff.
Real quick since I'm sneaking onto GSC when I should be working... Remember the "Sonship Right TM" teachings on righteousness? Didn't LCM interpret "righteousness" to mean "right living"?
(And I am WORKING HEARTILY TO THE LORD, for any judgemental lurkers.)
YES! Being right before God was definitely implied if not directly stated.
Your right, I'm not trying to compare David to TWI, but to show that God put more stock in a persons heart than their being right about everything. Perhaps I should have just used the "as it had not been done since the time of the Judges" example since that related to the topic better than the other examples. If all the law and prophets hang on loving God first with all your heart, soul and strenght and loving your neigbor as yourself. It sees Jesus has already answered that question. Love is the most important. Same seems to be true in I Cor 13. It's nice to know stuff, but without love, it's just stuff.
The thing that's important to understand here is that this is in reference to a period in David's life BEFORE all the doodoo hit the fan. Wierwille made it sound like this categorization of David was made in spite of his egregious errors. A proper understanding of the chronology involved sheds a whole new light on the issue.
interesting that something very different ended up on his memorial..
Now that's something I've never thought about.
People still want to compare him to David and Paul, while it is quite clear from his dying words (If we can really believe the story.) that he considered himself to be much less.
People still want to compare him to David and Paul, while it is quite clear from his dying words (If we can really believe the story.) that he considered himself to be much less.
Paul said he was less than the least . . . it's always a competition with them men-o-gawd . . .
In view of what I know now, it might have been better to refer to Solomon, who asked for a wise and discerning heart. He did some good things and judged wisely - in the beginning. And also, kept harems of women. Any woman he wanted, he took. (Sound familiar?)
If you're looking for "heart" how about Josiah? He cleaned the place up really well:
2 Kings 23:25 Neither before nor after Josiah was there a king like him who turned to the LORD as he did--with all his heart and with all his soul and with all his strength, in accordance with all the Law of Moses.
The "God's own heart" reference isn't from the OT at all but from Acts, where Paul is presenting the Lord Jesus Christ to the people of Antioch:
16 Then Paul stood up , and beckoning with his hand said , Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience . 17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it. 18 And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness. 19 And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot . 20 And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet.
21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years.
22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony , and said , I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine ownheart,which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. 25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said , Whom think ye that I am ? I am not he. But, behold , there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose .
26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent . 27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not , nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him. 28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain . 29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. 30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
32 And we declare unto you glad tidings , how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again ; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise , I will give you the sure mercies of David. 35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep , and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: 37 But he, whom God raised again , saw no corruption.
38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. 40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; 41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish : for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation was broken up , many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
What's the context? The lineage of Jesus - not the outstandingness of David. Why does Paul mention David? Because David was such a significant builder and establisher of the state of Israel. And now, Paul is preaching about Jesus and about who is the true Israel.
David was a man after God's heart at the time he was selected to be king.
God later barred him from significant privileges, like actually building the temple, because of David's own lifestyle ("man of blood"). Even though David was doing what he thought was right - attacking the enemies of Israel, fighting "Godly" wars. Right? Maybe. After God's heart? Who knows; David wasn't exactly blessing those who persecuted him - or persecuted Israel.
Recommended Posts
OldSkool
IMO - being right ties onto the sales pitch used to promote the classes they are selling. And to them table etiquette is the pinnacle of love. Shallow well.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Gen-2
Very good. yeah, God says we don't have that "being right" part down. Wrong people need saving, that's us in a nutshell !!
But He did ask us to do all we can about that being loving part, with our whole heart soul mind and strength. He looks at our hearts, our thoughts, our intents. He knows us all too well. He knows we won't always get it right. That's why love is so important. Each of us is truly capable of having our "moments" when we are loving, and it's probably why He doesn't just give up on us, but decided we were worth His effort. We're most like God when we love, no matter how right or wrong. and we're only occasionally like God when we're "right".
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Love!? . . .Love!? . . . We're given 'em da Word!! . . . That's loving!!
(lcm classic . . . )
Link to comment
Share on other sites
leafytwiglet
Yeah Straight from The vicsters Mouth to The foreheads Ear and screamed out his mouth at us.
IT all seemed so right when I was young and foolish.... And so far from what Christ set as an example of how we should be conducting our lives.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
that was the loyster's claim to fame.. the desire to be "right" fulfilled by da teachings of da way international.
I wonder how right he felt boinking a not exactly willing participant.. time and time again..
at the end of the world, I'd like to see the interview..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
The devil:
"we know you were bad. But are you good enough to be admitted.."
The candidate:
"I did the best (worst) I could.."
The devil..
"I thought so. Next..."
If they are too bad for hell.. I wonder where they go..
I mean.. if they are that bad..
can't "downstage" the prince of darkness..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
They go in-residence.
Edited by OldSkoolLink to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
God bless you friend..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Where not even the devil can say "cigarette break's over - back on your heads"...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Keith
Just looking at David a man after God's own heart. Had an affair, got her pregnant, killed the husband. Taxed the people against God's will. He wasn't definitly not right. Wasn't loving then either. There are also places after he ruled where it says that something required by the law was done..."as it hadn't been done since the time of the Judges." The time of Judges was prior to David, so David didn't do it. Yet God loved him. So God seems to think the heart is more important than the action.
When I did a word study of "logos" I came up with a working definition at least for my own use. Logos = not only the word spoken but the heart and reason behind what was spoken. If you miss the reason and heart, which is love, then it's wrong even if it is right every other way.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Yep. On David, and this may be a little off topic. David REPENTED of his evil. He wanted forgiveness. I have heard so many parallells between Victor Paul Wierwille and Craig Martindale's sins and David's sins. And yes David appears the worse. But David admitted he was wrong and asked for forgiveness from his God. And he got it. So to me the records of David illustrates his sins, but they pale in comparison to God's grace, mercy, and forgiveness. And how many of the Psalms express just that!
The way international has asked no one forgiveness. They have not apologized. And by all accounts, they think they are right in the things they persist. Neither Victor Paul Wierwille, nor Craig Martindale, nor Rosie Red Rivenbark have ever come out and tried to reconcile the sins they carry. And so the difference is glaring.
Kieth, I do not think you are drawing that comparison - for the record.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
I Corinthians 8:1b (KJV)
"Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth."
I Corinthians 8:1b (NIV)
"Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up."
I Corinthians 8:1b (NASB)
"Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies."
I Corinthians 8:1b (AMP)
"[Yet mere] knowledge causes people to be puffed up (to bear themselves loftily and be proud), but love (affection and goodwill and benevolence) edifies and builds up and encourages one to grow [to his full stature]."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Sometimes it's easy to BE right...in your actions.
But to DO right isn't always so easy.
So it's your right of way at the road junction. What do you do? Charge across anyway, and mow down the little old lady with the walking stick?
It's your right of way at the next junction. What do you do? Shoot across and get hit by a red-light jumper? Sue him from your hospital bed?
Your son went out and got drunk. What do you do? Thrash him halfway to death, in hopes he won't do it again?
You find out a stash of drugs in your other son's room. What do you do? Lecture him? Throw him out? Confine him to the home?
Your daughter comes home and tells you she's four months pregnant. What do you do? Turn her out into the street? Confine her to the home? Ban her from seeing the father again? Make her marry the father?
Your spouse is having an affair. What do you do? Kick him/her out, get a divorce? Sit down together to consider where your marriage is unsatisfactory and whether it's repairable?
Some of the alternatives are "justifiable" but they aren't necessarily right.
You can "do" all the right things and indeed there are many records in the Bible of where people did the right actions - but their heart was "far from" God.
If you're not being loving (however you interpret that), can you even be right, in God's eyes?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
soul searcher
Sounds like somebody I know. She joined the Way because the Wow people who recruited her "had something", and she "wanted what they had." (Her words.)
My mother beleives she's doing the "right" thing by letting my underemployed heroin addict brother live in her house. I told her the right thing to do would be to kick his lazy azz out on the street.
Edited by soul searcherLink to comment
Share on other sites
JavaJane
Real quick since I'm sneaking onto GSC when I should be working... Remember the "Sonship Right TM" teachings on righteousness? Didn't LCM interpret "righteousness" to mean "right living"?
(And I am WORKING HEARTILY TO THE LORD, for any judgemental lurkers.)
Edited by JavaJaneLink to comment
Share on other sites
Keith
Your right, I'm not trying to compare David to TWI, but to show that God put more stock in a persons heart than their being right about everything. Perhaps I should have just used the "as it had not been done since the time of the Judges" example since that related to the topic better than the other examples. If all the law and prophets hang on loving God first with all your heart, soul and strenght and loving your neigbor as yourself. It sees Jesus has already answered that question. Love is the most important. Same seems to be true in I Cor 13. It's nice to know stuff, but without love, it's just stuff.
Edited by KeithLink to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
YES! Being right before God was definitely implied if not directly stated.
Great posts!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
"David was a man after God's heart"
The thing that's important to understand here is that this is in reference to a period in David's life BEFORE all the doodoo hit the fan. Wierwille made it sound like this categorization of David was made in spite of his egregious errors. A proper understanding of the chronology involved sheds a whole new light on the issue.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
"a man(?) after gawd's own heart.."
interesting that something very different ended up on his memorial..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Now that's something I've never thought about.
People still want to compare him to David and Paul, while it is quite clear from his dying words (If we can really believe the story.) that he considered himself to be much less.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Paul said he was less than the least . . . it's always a competition with them men-o-gawd . . .
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Gen-2
He was a lot more like Naaman
...Only he never saw the light at the end, instead he went blind in one eye and couldn't see out the other,... At least Naaman walked away whole.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
I never understood that reference, anyway.
In view of what I know now, it might have been better to refer to Solomon, who asked for a wise and discerning heart. He did some good things and judged wisely - in the beginning. And also, kept harems of women. Any woman he wanted, he took. (Sound familiar?)
If you're looking for "heart" how about Josiah? He cleaned the place up really well:
2 Kings 23:25 Neither before nor after Josiah was there a king like him who turned to the LORD as he did--with all his heart and with all his soul and with all his strength, in accordance with all the Law of Moses.
The "God's own heart" reference isn't from the OT at all but from Acts, where Paul is presenting the Lord Jesus Christ to the people of Antioch:
16 Then Paul stood up , and beckoning with his hand said , Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience . 17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it. 18 And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness. 19 And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot . 20 And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet.
21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years.
22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony , and said , I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart,which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. 25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said , Whom think ye that I am ? I am not he. But, behold , there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose .
26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent . 27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not , nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him. 28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain . 29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. 30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
32 And we declare unto you glad tidings , how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again ; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise , I will give you the sure mercies of David. 35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep , and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: 37 But he, whom God raised again , saw no corruption.
38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. 40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; 41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish : for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation was broken up , many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
What's the context? The lineage of Jesus - not the outstandingness of David. Why does Paul mention David? Because David was such a significant builder and establisher of the state of Israel. And now, Paul is preaching about Jesus and about who is the true Israel.
David was a man after God's heart at the time he was selected to be king.
God later barred him from significant privileges, like actually building the temple, because of David's own lifestyle ("man of blood"). Even though David was doing what he thought was right - attacking the enemies of Israel, fighting "Godly" wars. Right? Maybe. After God's heart? Who knows; David wasn't exactly blessing those who persecuted him - or persecuted Israel.
<a name="47">
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.