Off topic, I know, but Kit Sober mentioned "Snakes in Suits" - that book helped me a lot in dealing with and understanding things that had happened to me while in TWI, specifically in situations with a certain leader.
Off topic, I know, but Kit Sober mentioned "Snakes in Suits" - that book helped me a lot in dealing with and understanding things that had happened to me while in TWI, specifically in situations with a certain leader.
I don't think "Snakes in Suits" is off topic at all because vp's wickedness is the subject of this thread.
vp was a snake in a suit, and that book helped me in understanding how I had been so misled. Kris Skedgell's book and others also helped. "Snakes in Suits" I was assigned to read by my boss (who is a practicing Christian and who has lifted my hope in the reality and existence of "true Christians" because he is one.
There has been so many helpful books and information documented here that have helped me struggle free from the unhealthy mentality I was "trained up" in twi.
It still is true that the truth will set you free. And knowing true Christianity and becoming a better Christian lifts the blindfolds that hid what vp was and what he did to people.
"Snakes in Suits" deals with the mentality and methods of a psycopath. Their brains are wired missing some pieces most people consider normal. And this difference is a key in their success: (1) They are not hampered by feelings of misgivings or guilt -- they have no compassion or empathy with their victims. And (2) their victims are easily conned because they/we assume the normal feelings, and expect certain normal responses that a psycopath does not feel or respond with.
The September/October 2010 Scientific American -Mind Magazine additionally had an intriguing article about psycopaths also and noted that psycopaths have low rehabilitation rates because their minds are not rehabilitatable (is that a word?) They feel no remorse because they have no empathy and cannot "feel" for the victims. This article came out at the same time I was completing the reading adn reporting assignment of "Snakes in Suits" for my work-related required training. (I am an Internal Audit Manager and it's required that we be knowledgeable of people to detect and even better deter fraud, and also to protect ourselves and the integrity of our profession.)
You cannot appeal to a psychopath's conscience because he does not have one.
Snake oil salesmen may or may not harm someone. He is running a con. "White Collar" is a tv progam (you can also watch on "Hulu") that shows a con artist. A psycopath always hurts people because he cuts accross the basic ethical standard of society.
From what I know of vp I would say he was a psycopath. He exhibited no empathy or compassion for anyone. He abused the trust and loyalty of his wife and children as well as the followers of twi who trusted him so. He lied and stole words as plagiarism, and when he taught those words he stole our finances by pretending he was God. I certainly don't know anyone who is better off because of him.
As others have noted here in this thread and elsewhere, people were saved by the Holy Spirit in spite of vp's sins and not by vp's goodness and reliance and trus in the Lord.
People like Kathryn Kuhlman, Billy Graham and so many others who lived to show the Lord's face in this world did their best to live what they taught. Not so with vp.
Many people were able to be found by Jesus Christ in twi and we thought we had a fresh start on life. But the distorted gospel he taught -- distorted primarily because vp plagiarized the Holy Spirit's words given to others and therefore when he spouted the same words they did not have the power or relationship with the Lord that that the words assured us they had. The numbers of people who have been lost to the Holy SPirit becuase of the errors of twi is known to the Lord.
I for one stand with those who will be happy to see him reap his just rewards.
i'm not bothered one way or the other to be honest
I trust that God is good, always, and that His judgment is good and righteous and true altogether. I'm not really worried about vps judgment.
I'm looking forward to stuff like seeing this housekeeping lady I worked with, Hannah Pipkin, when I was in Central Supply at Alta Bates Hospital in 1969 who the Lord told me was going to reign as a queen in His heaven. That's what I'm looking forward to seeing. And also seeing Excathedra being given an appropriate throne perhaps by the kind and loving God who is so thankful for the kindness from Him she gives to all of us here at the Greasespot Cafe :)
I remember singing the old hymn, Amazing Grace, when I was in The Way.
Here is the first stanza. I have done a strike-through to reflect one of the changes Wierwille made to the lyrics. It's only one word. Yet, I think it accurately reflects the essence of how Wierwille perverted the intended message.
Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretchsomeone like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.
In that song the word 'wretch' applies to everybody. That everybody is lost and needs to be found. That everybody is blind and needs to see. Not just VP. So what "dastardly deeds" have you done that makes you and everybody else worthy of being called a wretch? Songs do not equal scripture, BTW. Just like page headings, punctuation, capitalized letters, commas, chapters and verses divisions, etc. do not have authority in rightly dividing God's word.
One of the signatures of VPs ministry was that he wanted it to be different than the oppressive condemnation, sin, hell fire kind of preaching he grew up with. Wretch just didn't bless him, so what? He wrote JCING for the intended purpose of distancing his ministry from mainstream protestantism. I'm guessing that's why he spoke so bluntly about Billy Graham as well. VP was just sick of hearing people in twi compare his group to mainstream Christianity. Those people didn't get it. Did his strategy work? You tell me.
1975 - JCING written - 8,000 attend ROA
next 11 years - one vicious attack on TWI after another - deprogrammings, nut cases protesting outside ministry events, etc. The hounds of hell.
1986 - ministry begins to splinter - over 20,000 attend ROA - attacks on ministry switch from outside to inside. For those 11 years we were mercilessly attacked from the outside, yet the ministry GREW! VPs strategy worked because God gave it to him.
1989 - after 3 years of in fighting, only 4,000 attend ROA. LCM does the loyalty letter to thin the herd. Damage control.
1993 - 11,000 attend ROA, damage control works, but then...
1994 - LCM initiates debt purge, homo purge, unproductive evil purge, new class (wap), plus all other control methods. Ministry didn't grow too good after that, because God couldn't protect it from LCMs course of action. I liked LCM as VPs choice to replace him. IMO, LCM just started getting a truckload of bad advice and he wasn't able to absorb all that was going on.
VPs ministry lives. Walter Cummins is still doing research. He and Dan Bader will be doing a weekend teaching seminar in Dayton in April. Many others are continuing to research and teach the word the way VP taught them. In America we're still free to do that, praise God. Those who will be conformed to this world will be conformed to this world.
...One of the signatures of VPs ministry was that he wanted it to be different than the oppressive condemnation, sin, hell fire kind of preaching he grew up with. Wretch just didn't bless him, so what? ...
vp cut out sin because he wanted a doctrine that woud allow him to be able to do whatever he wanted with impunity. That's a hallmark of hypocricy. Billy Graham to this day can preach against sin (which hurts and destroys the message of Christianity as well as the people directly harmed by it) because he has lived his years in the way he taught.
The reason sin is spelled out in the Bible is because it is wrong.
Inserting into your timeline the rapes, the stealing, the plagiarism, the phony academic credentials would give it more accuracy. Leave out the commas and periods if you want (which makes reading easier), but don't leave out the disgraceful sins -- the backbiting, the rape, the plagiarism -- which was the mortar of his building and which made every brick weak and crumbling as he built his "edifice" of twi.
The song tells a message. Put on your "thinking cap" and see if you can understand what the author was saying. It was meant to be auto-biographical. The author felt a deep sense of remorse for his previous misdeeds.
VPW, on the other hand, raped young women who had put their trust in him as their spiritual adviser. He broke his marriage vows to his wife in the process. He was verbally and psychologically abusive to his wife, in contrast to the Biblical lessons he preached from the pulpit. He was in an almost constant state of inebriation, despite the Bible's admonition to "let all things be in moderation". He lambasted anyone who disagreed with him. He surrounded himself with armed thugs who functioned as bodyguards despite his blathering on and on about how we are more than conquerors in all situations. He drove people to suicide and showed no remorse. His L.E.A.D. program policies left some people maimed for life (or worse) but he failed to amend the requirements. Shall I go on?
Maybe that's why he had no problem with changing that one little word to absolve himself of guilt.
This is the man you are defending. Don't you find that the least bit disheartening?
Perhaps you, too, lack the ability to feel compassion. It would seem so, at least, from the callous demeanor conveyed in your posts.
I think the claim that "vp was a very very bad man" is simply IRRELEVANT for some. I think I can understand this. It doesn't matter to some whether he stole and plundered, drank drambuie like water, bullied raped,.. all that is irrelevant. Da *man(?)* had a (supposed) *ministry*. That's all that "really" counts..
In the mind of some, it seems it would make no difference, additionally, if he was responsible for the destruction of millions of Jews in the furnace, or slaughter of Serbians, or large parts of the Cambodian population, and on, and on and on.. he had a MINISTRY. Apparently that absolves everything..
Walter Cummins is still doing research. He and Dan Bader will be doing a weekend teaching seminar in Dayton in April. Many others are continuing to research and teach the word the way VP taught them
I really expect better of W*lter.
though he dismissed the goings on at hq.. maybe he changed.. I don't know, I don't know him. At least not very well. If he still calls vic "da man of gawd"..
next 11 years - one vicious attack on TWI after another - deprogrammings, nut cases protesting outside ministry events, etc. The hounds of hell.
1986 - ministry begins to splinter - over 20,000 attend ROA - attacks on ministry switch from outside to inside. For those 11 years we were mercilessly attacked from the outside, yet the ministry GREW! VPs strategy worked because God gave it to him.
1989 - after 3 years of in fighting, only 4,000 attend ROA. LCM does the loyalty letter to thin the herd. Damage control.
1993 - 11,000 attend ROA, damage control works, but then...
1994 - LCM initiates debt purge, homo purge, unproductive evil purge, new class (wap), plus all other control methods. Ministry didn't grow too good after that, because God couldn't protect it from LCMs course of action.
First, I don't think anybody is questionining VP's ability to grow a group. He was obviously very talented in that respect. If that were the criteria of judging someone's integrity, or whether God was behind that person's ministry, then the Mormons, Muslims, and Roman Catholics rank the highest of them all.
Sorry, just couldn't keep my mouth shut. Anyway, were there really 20,000 at the '86 Rock?
One of the signatures of VPs ministry was that he wanted it to be different than the oppressive condemnation, sin, hell fire kind of preaching he grew up with. Wretch just didn't bless him, so what? He wrote JCING for the intended purpose of distancing his ministry from mainstream protestantism. I'm guessing that's why he spoke so bluntly about Billy Graham as well. VP was just sick of hearing people in twi compare his group to mainstream Christianity. Those people didn't get it. Did his strategy work? You tell me.
1975 - JCING written - 8,000 attend ROA
next 11 years - one vicious attack on TWI after another - deprogrammings, nut cases protesting outside ministry events, etc. The hounds of hell.
1986 - ministry begins to splinter - over 20,000 attend ROA - attacks on ministry switch from outside to inside. For those 11 years we were mercilessly attacked from the outside, yet the ministry GREW! VPs strategy worked because God gave it to him.
1989 - after 3 years of in fighting, only 4,000 attend ROA. LCM does the loyalty letter to thin the herd. Damage control.
1993 - 11,000 attend ROA, damage control works, but then...
1994 - LCM initiates debt purge, homo purge, unproductive evil purge, new class (wap), plus all other control methods. Ministry didn't grow too good after that, because God couldn't protect it from LCMs course of action. I liked LCM as VPs choice to replace him. IMO, LCM just started getting a truckload of bad advice and he wasn't able to absorb all that was going on.
VPs ministry lives. Walter Cummins is still doing research. He and Dan Bader will be doing a weekend teaching seminar in Dayton in April. Many others are continuing to research and teach the word the way VP taught them. In America we're still free to do that, praise God. Those who will be conformed to this world will be conformed to this world.
Please tell me you are kidding? 8,000 people attended the ROA in 1975? Big frickin deal.....do you have any idea how many millions have attended BG's Crusades? If it is numbers you are enamored of than you have got the wrong guy.......heck....go to a Soul Fest or any good Youth Rally today...and those numbers pale.
Vp writes a book denying JC is God....which many Christians understand as actually denying God, he gets some impressionable kids to follow him into this abyss, and you think it is a Christian accomplishment? Really?
Those "hounds of hell" were never in a cult. They knew VP was a wolf in sheep's clothing, they understood he was a bad man....and they cared enough to try and bring that to the attention of others. I sure wish I had paid attention to them. Let me thank them right now for trying. Maybe God Himself sent them to the gates of TWI? As long as we are throwing "whatever" out here.....did you ever consider that? If we had listened....maybe so many would not have been so scarred from VP's false anti-Christian "Bible" cult. That would have been nice. It would be a good thing if women were not STILL struggling with what happened to them.....if people DIDN'T commit suicide as a result of trauma endured in TWI......I don't know...just spit-balling here.....but these are not good things. Not to mention all the people who will never come to the scriptures again or anything but an aberrant understanding of Christ because VP wrote a few lousy books.
Something to consider here is that TWI fell apart because our charismatic leader died and there was no one there to take his place. That TWI was nothing more than a cult of personality.....and when the big dog went....odds were pretty good the thing would fall apart.
VP was TWI. It was his puppy. God had little to do with any of it. The scriptures are replete with warning....it is all there in black and white, but after VP got done with classes, cross outs, margin notes, literals and his "I just know it must be trues". It is little wonder we couldn't see it and more than a little interesting we could actually turn it around on the ones who understood who VP really was.
Johniam, there are so many amazing bible teachers out there. People who really know their stuff. They have never been damaged by that aberrant, clinging, and anti-Christ thing VP passed off as biblical. Yes, we are free to listen to whomever we wish......but, at this point....knowing all that we do, why would we want to?
next 11 years - one vicious attack on TWI after another - deprogrammings, nut cases protesting outside ministry events, etc. The hounds of hell.
1986 - ministry begins to splinter - over 20,000 attend ROA - attacks on ministry switch from outside to inside. For those 11 years we were mercilessly attacked from the outside, yet the ministry GREW! VPs strategy worked because God gave it to him.
1989 - after 3 years of in fighting, only 4,000 attend ROA. LCM does the loyalty letter to thin the herd. Damage control.
1993 - 11,000 attend ROA, damage control works, but then...
1994 - LCM initiates debt purge, homo purge, unproductive evil purge, new class (wap), plus all other control methods.
Hmmmm......did vp's strategy work?
If wierwille's objective was to set up an organization that had a top-down command center, a deceptive agenda, an exploitive culture, a legalist arm, a bogus "research" approach, an anti-family undertone and an idolatrous element.......then he succeeded.
Yet, from a personal observation......seeing people tossed to and fro in a turbulent environment, here are a few things I saw.
1974-1978 .....twi was a revolving door, people always leaving. Hundreds and hundreds of hours of witnessing......few results. Classes and classes....yet, some 80% of people never stayed involved with twi. A numbers game? Sales?
1978 - 4th corps, Clergy/Limb coordinator of my state exits twi
1979 - Confrontational Corps Week, discontinued the Q&A segment, Wierwille upset
1980 - Word in Culture movement in twi was SUPPRESSED, more corps moving to college ed
1981 - VP chooses lcm as pres-elect, dissent growing in leadership levels
1982 - Living Victoriously was mostly a victory lap for wierwille, NOT twi
1983 - Division and strife building underneath twi surface
1985 - Wierwille dies of cancer....cause of death cover-up. Lies and reshuffling of deck.
1986 - Power Grabs begin.....geer was only the most notable
In the end.....what was/is the legacy of wierwille?
A preacher? teacher? unifier? healer? comforter? apostle? prophet?
OR
A predator? deceiver? plagairist? narcissist? psychopath?
In one decade, wierwille's "work" implodes! Corps leadership has split in hundreds of directions, hundreds of diverging doctrines. Of course, there is the window dressing of "foundational truths"....but then, its every man hath a doctrine, a shtick. And today's twi READS the sunday sermons to the drones believers of twi's household.
A striking contrast to the days when spontaneity and in-spirit-action thrived in its early movement.....and, when we laughed at the devil reading the church preacher's sermon that he stuck in the drawer the night before.
I find it interesting that Jack LaLanne (b. 9/26/14) was over two years older than vpw (12/31/16). Vpw looked the more decrepit than Jack , in the photos of 'ol vic taken over 25 years ago. R.i.p. Jack!
Edit: sorry, couldn't attach the comparison pic of Lalanne, like I intended.
Heh, Calavicci. I'm the one who snapped that pic you posted. I guess it went viral after I uploaded it to Wikipedia a while back.
FWIW, here's "the whole thing," with others including Mrs., Rhoda, a "staffer," and various eleventh corpuscles in view.
Interesting thread, y'all. I can't believe I read the whole thing. *burp*
Wouldn't you know? Just when I get around to feeling like posting here the place is closing down. *burp*
'Scuse me.
I've lurked GS on and off for years, but this is the first thread I've seen where VP is accused of child molestation, (brainfixed on page 2). Where did that come from? Dang.
BTW, here's a pic of Jack. You're right, he looked much better!
I've lurked GS on and off for years, but this is the first thread I've seen where VP is accused of child molestation, (brainfixed on page 2). Where did that come from? Dang.
V.P., himself, confessed to small groups in the W.C. that he sexually fondled his adolescent daughter to "teach her about sexuality". (One such group was comprised of all women.) According to VP (You know he wasn't really a Dr., don't you?) Wierwille, this was supposedly a custom that was practiced by some aboriginal tribe in some remote area of the World. (So much for "The Bible is our only rule of faith and practice.") There are people who currently post here who were present at those meetings, which makes it first-hand testimony. As I've said before, we have no way of knowing if he was being truthful in making these confessions. What we do know for certain, though, is that he did, indeed, make these confessions.
V.P., himself, confessed to small groups in the W.C. that he sexually fondled his adolescent daughter to "teach her about sexuality". ...According to VP...Wierwille, this was supposedly a custom that was practiced by some aboriginal tribe in some remote area of the World.
I always thought that was something from the novel "The Carpetbaggers."
Notice (as usual with VPW) the lack of anything specific. Nowhere mentioned by name. Musta been written on that piece of paper that proved that Jesus was inducted into the synagogue a year early "because of his supposed illegitimacy."
In United States history, "carpetbaggers" was a pejorative term Southerners gave to Northerners (also referred to as Yankees) who moved to the South during the Reconstruction era, between 1865 and 1877.
The term referred to the observation that these newcomers tended to carry "carpet bags," a common form of luggage at the time (sturdy and made from recycled carpet). It was used as a derogatory term, suggesting opportunism and exploitation by the outsiders. The relocated northerners often formed alliances with freed slaves and southern whites who were Republicans, who were nicknamed scalawags. Together they are said to have politically manipulated and controlled former Confederate states for varying periods for their own financial and power gains. In sum, carpetbaggers were seen as insidious Northern outsiders with questionable objectives meddling in local politics, buying up plantations at fire-sale prices and taking advantage of Southerners.
Personally, I rather suspect he was merely laying down the groundwork of a preemptive defense in case he should ever be found out, by claiming it was accepted as the "norm" in some cultures.
V.P., himself, confessed to small groups in the W.C. that he sexually fondled his adolescent daughter to "teach her about sexuality". (One such group was comprised of all women.) According to VP (You know he wasn't really a Dr., don't you?) Wierwille, this was supposedly a custom that was practiced by some aboriginal tribe in some remote area of the World.
The Man of God for our Time.
Our Father in the Word.
The Teacher.
Anyone else feel like going in the bathroom and putting their finger down their throat?
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Well, the last time I checked, I was a woman who joined the Navy!! I love this poster!! Anyhow, to add my few pennies, I think VBW was a sick man!! A few years ago, a woman posted here at the Cafe
waysider
I think the realization they were able to keep so much hidden speaks volumes about just how corrupt and deceptive the whole operation was.
chockfull
"Was vpw a good man?" for God to decide - I don't own the scales of Justice. but you only need to insert one little adjective into that statement to make it one that resounds with a universa
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JavaJane
Off topic, I know, but Kit Sober mentioned "Snakes in Suits" - that book helped me a lot in dealing with and understanding things that had happened to me while in TWI, specifically in situations with a certain leader.
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Kit Sober
I don't think "Snakes in Suits" is off topic at all because vp's wickedness is the subject of this thread.
vp was a snake in a suit, and that book helped me in understanding how I had been so misled. Kris Skedgell's book and others also helped. "Snakes in Suits" I was assigned to read by my boss (who is a practicing Christian and who has lifted my hope in the reality and existence of "true Christians" because he is one.
There has been so many helpful books and information documented here that have helped me struggle free from the unhealthy mentality I was "trained up" in twi.
It still is true that the truth will set you free. And knowing true Christianity and becoming a better Christian lifts the blindfolds that hid what vp was and what he did to people.
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Twinky
Snakes in Suits.
Sounds interesting.
Is it a variation of Snake-oil Salesmen in Suits? Sounds like it deals with the same mentality.
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excathedra
i'm not bothered one way or the other to be honest
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Kit Sober
"Snakes in Suits" deals with the mentality and methods of a psycopath. Their brains are wired missing some pieces most people consider normal. And this difference is a key in their success: (1) They are not hampered by feelings of misgivings or guilt -- they have no compassion or empathy with their victims. And (2) their victims are easily conned because they/we assume the normal feelings, and expect certain normal responses that a psycopath does not feel or respond with.
The September/October 2010 Scientific American -Mind Magazine additionally had an intriguing article about psycopaths also and noted that psycopaths have low rehabilitation rates because their minds are not rehabilitatable (is that a word?) They feel no remorse because they have no empathy and cannot "feel" for the victims. This article came out at the same time I was completing the reading adn reporting assignment of "Snakes in Suits" for my work-related required training. (I am an Internal Audit Manager and it's required that we be knowledgeable of people to detect and even better deter fraud, and also to protect ourselves and the integrity of our profession.)
You cannot appeal to a psychopath's conscience because he does not have one.
Snake oil salesmen may or may not harm someone. He is running a con. "White Collar" is a tv progam (you can also watch on "Hulu") that shows a con artist. A psycopath always hurts people because he cuts accross the basic ethical standard of society.
From what I know of vp I would say he was a psycopath. He exhibited no empathy or compassion for anyone. He abused the trust and loyalty of his wife and children as well as the followers of twi who trusted him so. He lied and stole words as plagiarism, and when he taught those words he stole our finances by pretending he was God. I certainly don't know anyone who is better off because of him.
As others have noted here in this thread and elsewhere, people were saved by the Holy Spirit in spite of vp's sins and not by vp's goodness and reliance and trus in the Lord.
People like Kathryn Kuhlman, Billy Graham and so many others who lived to show the Lord's face in this world did their best to live what they taught. Not so with vp.
Many people were able to be found by Jesus Christ in twi and we thought we had a fresh start on life. But the distorted gospel he taught -- distorted primarily because vp plagiarized the Holy Spirit's words given to others and therefore when he spouted the same words they did not have the power or relationship with the Lord that that the words assured us they had. The numbers of people who have been lost to the Holy SPirit becuase of the errors of twi is known to the Lord.
I for one stand with those who will be happy to see him reap his just rewards.
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Kit Sober
I trust that God is good, always, and that His judgment is good and righteous and true altogether. I'm not really worried about vps judgment.
I'm looking forward to stuff like seeing this housekeeping lady I worked with, Hannah Pipkin, when I was in Central Supply at Alta Bates Hospital in 1969 who the Lord told me was going to reign as a queen in His heaven. That's what I'm looking forward to seeing. And also seeing Excathedra being given an appropriate throne perhaps by the kind and loving God who is so thankful for the kindness from Him she gives to all of us here at the Greasespot Cafe :)
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johniam
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Kit Sober
vp cut out sin because he wanted a doctrine that woud allow him to be able to do whatever he wanted with impunity. That's a hallmark of hypocricy. Billy Graham to this day can preach against sin (which hurts and destroys the message of Christianity as well as the people directly harmed by it) because he has lived his years in the way he taught.
The reason sin is spelled out in the Bible is because it is wrong.
Inserting into your timeline the rapes, the stealing, the plagiarism, the phony academic credentials would give it more accuracy. Leave out the commas and periods if you want (which makes reading easier), but don't leave out the disgraceful sins -- the backbiting, the rape, the plagiarism -- which was the mortar of his building and which made every brick weak and crumbling as he built his "edifice" of twi.
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waysider
Read the lyrics, John. HERE
The song tells a message. Put on your "thinking cap" and see if you can understand what the author was saying. It was meant to be auto-biographical. The author felt a deep sense of remorse for his previous misdeeds.
VPW, on the other hand, raped young women who had put their trust in him as their spiritual adviser. He broke his marriage vows to his wife in the process. He was verbally and psychologically abusive to his wife, in contrast to the Biblical lessons he preached from the pulpit. He was in an almost constant state of inebriation, despite the Bible's admonition to "let all things be in moderation". He lambasted anyone who disagreed with him. He surrounded himself with armed thugs who functioned as bodyguards despite his blathering on and on about how we are more than conquerors in all situations. He drove people to suicide and showed no remorse. His L.E.A.D. program policies left some people maimed for life (or worse) but he failed to amend the requirements. Shall I go on?
Maybe that's why he had no problem with changing that one little word to absolve himself of guilt.
This is the man you are defending. Don't you find that the least bit disheartening?
Perhaps you, too, lack the ability to feel compassion. It would seem so, at least, from the callous demeanor conveyed in your posts.
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Ham
I think the claim that "vp was a very very bad man" is simply IRRELEVANT for some. I think I can understand this. It doesn't matter to some whether he stole and plundered, drank drambuie like water, bullied raped,.. all that is irrelevant. Da *man(?)* had a (supposed) *ministry*. That's all that "really" counts..
In the mind of some, it seems it would make no difference, additionally, if he was responsible for the destruction of millions of Jews in the furnace, or slaughter of Serbians, or large parts of the Cambodian population, and on, and on and on.. he had a MINISTRY. Apparently that absolves everything..
I really expect better of W*lter.
though he dismissed the goings on at hq.. maybe he changed.. I don't know, I don't know him. At least not very well. If he still calls vic "da man of gawd"..
I just sincerely hope not.
I dunno.
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Ham
The Fuhrer's "ministry" was a safe harbor as well.. for a few SS, until the end came..
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Ham
consequences for their involvement with Hitler's sin seems to have followed them to the ends of the earth..
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Broken Arrow
First, I don't think anybody is questionining VP's ability to grow a group. He was obviously very talented in that respect. If that were the criteria of judging someone's integrity, or whether God was behind that person's ministry, then the Mormons, Muslims, and Roman Catholics rank the highest of them all.
Sorry, just couldn't keep my mouth shut. Anyway, were there really 20,000 at the '86 Rock?
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geisha779
. . . . . . . .
One of the signatures of VPs ministry was that he wanted it to be different than the oppressive condemnation, sin, hell fire kind of preaching he grew up with. Wretch just didn't bless him, so what? He wrote JCING for the intended purpose of distancing his ministry from mainstream protestantism. I'm guessing that's why he spoke so bluntly about Billy Graham as well. VP was just sick of hearing people in twi compare his group to mainstream Christianity. Those people didn't get it. Did his strategy work? You tell me.
1975 - JCING written - 8,000 attend ROA
next 11 years - one vicious attack on TWI after another - deprogrammings, nut cases protesting outside ministry events, etc. The hounds of hell.
1986 - ministry begins to splinter - over 20,000 attend ROA - attacks on ministry switch from outside to inside. For those 11 years we were mercilessly attacked from the outside, yet the ministry GREW! VPs strategy worked because God gave it to him.
1989 - after 3 years of in fighting, only 4,000 attend ROA. LCM does the loyalty letter to thin the herd. Damage control.
1993 - 11,000 attend ROA, damage control works, but then...
1994 - LCM initiates debt purge, homo purge, unproductive evil purge, new class (wap), plus all other control methods. Ministry didn't grow too good after that, because God couldn't protect it from LCMs course of action. I liked LCM as VPs choice to replace him. IMO, LCM just started getting a truckload of bad advice and he wasn't able to absorb all that was going on.
VPs ministry lives. Walter Cummins is still doing research. He and Dan Bader will be doing a weekend teaching seminar in Dayton in April. Many others are continuing to research and teach the word the way VP taught them. In America we're still free to do that, praise God. Those who will be conformed to this world will be conformed to this world.
Please tell me you are kidding? 8,000 people attended the ROA in 1975? Big frickin deal.....do you have any idea how many millions have attended BG's Crusades? If it is numbers you are enamored of than you have got the wrong guy.......heck....go to a Soul Fest or any good Youth Rally today...and those numbers pale.
Vp writes a book denying JC is God....which many Christians understand as actually denying God, he gets some impressionable kids to follow him into this abyss, and you think it is a Christian accomplishment? Really?
Those "hounds of hell" were never in a cult. They knew VP was a wolf in sheep's clothing, they understood he was a bad man....and they cared enough to try and bring that to the attention of others. I sure wish I had paid attention to them. Let me thank them right now for trying. Maybe God Himself sent them to the gates of TWI? As long as we are throwing "whatever" out here.....did you ever consider that? If we had listened....maybe so many would not have been so scarred from VP's false anti-Christian "Bible" cult. That would have been nice. It would be a good thing if women were not STILL struggling with what happened to them.....if people DIDN'T commit suicide as a result of trauma endured in TWI......I don't know...just spit-balling here.....but these are not good things. Not to mention all the people who will never come to the scriptures again or anything but an aberrant understanding of Christ because VP wrote a few lousy books.
Something to consider here is that TWI fell apart because our charismatic leader died and there was no one there to take his place. That TWI was nothing more than a cult of personality.....and when the big dog went....odds were pretty good the thing would fall apart.
VP was TWI. It was his puppy. God had little to do with any of it. The scriptures are replete with warning....it is all there in black and white, but after VP got done with classes, cross outs, margin notes, literals and his "I just know it must be trues". It is little wonder we couldn't see it and more than a little interesting we could actually turn it around on the ones who understood who VP really was.
Johniam, there are so many amazing bible teachers out there. People who really know their stuff. They have never been damaged by that aberrant, clinging, and anti-Christ thing VP passed off as biblical. Yes, we are free to listen to whomever we wish......but, at this point....knowing all that we do, why would we want to?
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skyrider
Hmmmm......did vp's strategy work?
If wierwille's objective was to set up an organization that had a top-down command center, a deceptive agenda, an exploitive culture, a legalist arm, a bogus "research" approach, an anti-family undertone and an idolatrous element.......then he succeeded.
Yet, from a personal observation......seeing people tossed to and fro in a turbulent environment, here are a few things I saw.
1974-1978 .....twi was a revolving door, people always leaving. Hundreds and hundreds of hours of witnessing......few results. Classes and classes....yet, some 80% of people never stayed involved with twi. A numbers game? Sales?
1978 - 4th corps, Clergy/Limb coordinator of my state exits twi
1979 - Confrontational Corps Week, discontinued the Q&A segment, Wierwille upset
1980 - Word in Culture movement in twi was SUPPRESSED, more corps moving to college ed
1981 - VP chooses lcm as pres-elect, dissent growing in leadership levels
1982 - Living Victoriously was mostly a victory lap for wierwille, NOT twi
1983 - Division and strife building underneath twi surface
1984 - Twi terminology changing rapidly.....athletes, javelins, discus, oh my!
1985 - Wierwille dies of cancer....cause of death cover-up. Lies and reshuffling of deck.
1986 - Power Grabs begin.....geer was only the most notable
In the end.....what was/is the legacy of wierwille?
A preacher? teacher? unifier? healer? comforter? apostle? prophet?
OR
A predator? deceiver? plagairist? narcissist? psychopath?
In one decade, wierwille's "work" implodes! Corps leadership has split in hundreds of directions, hundreds of diverging doctrines. Of course, there is the window dressing of "foundational truths"....but then, its every man hath a doctrine, a shtick. And today's twi READS the sunday sermons to the drones believers of twi's household.
A striking contrast to the days when spontaneity and in-spirit-action thrived in its early movement.....and, when we laughed at the devil reading the church preacher's sermon that he stuck in the drawer the night before.
.
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Workman
Heh, Calavicci. I'm the one who snapped that pic you posted. I guess it went viral after I uploaded it to Wikipedia a while back.
FWIW, here's "the whole thing," with others including Mrs., Rhoda, a "staffer," and various eleventh corpuscles in view.
Interesting thread, y'all. I can't believe I read the whole thing. *burp*
Wouldn't you know? Just when I get around to feeling like posting here the place is closing down. *burp*
'Scuse me.
I've lurked GS on and off for years, but this is the first thread I've seen where VP is accused of child molestation, (brainfixed on page 2). Where did that come from? Dang.
BTW, here's a pic of Jack. You're right, he looked much better!
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waysider
V.P., himself, confessed to small groups in the W.C. that he sexually fondled his adolescent daughter to "teach her about sexuality". (One such group was comprised of all women.) According to VP (You know he wasn't really a Dr., don't you?) Wierwille, this was supposedly a custom that was practiced by some aboriginal tribe in some remote area of the World. (So much for "The Bible is our only rule of faith and practice.") There are people who currently post here who were present at those meetings, which makes it first-hand testimony. As I've said before, we have no way of knowing if he was being truthful in making these confessions. What we do know for certain, though, is that he did, indeed, make these confessions.
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Twinky
I always thought that was something from the novel "The Carpetbaggers."
Notice (as usual with VPW) the lack of anything specific. Nowhere mentioned by name. Musta been written on that piece of paper that proved that Jesus was inducted into the synagogue a year early "because of his supposed illegitimacy."
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waysider
Personally, I rather suspect he was merely laying down the groundwork of a preemptive defense in case he should ever be found out, by claiming it was accepted as the "norm" in some cultures.
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Jim
The Man of God for our Time.
Our Father in the Word.
The Teacher.
Anyone else feel like going in the bathroom and putting their finger down their throat?
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Ham
I've only had that "opportunity" in my dreams..
I met the character who introduced me to da way in a dream last night..
I kept finding more and more vile crap to spit out..
at least, in the dream, it was something solid I could expel, and distance myself from..
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Ham
no, it wasn't *me*..
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Ham
despite being displayed in a trench coat here..
this was a character, who would not be able to be able to survive in time square..
the faces of the others in the picture..
say everything to me..
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Ham
Do I really have to say more? Who looks "certain".. or "convinced" in this tiny snapshot of history?
Not his wife..
what is really happening in this picture?
what I see..
a lot of "blathering"..
the wife, who knows his proclivities, is not impressed..
one of the fawning followers seems convinced..
The way I read her response.. "I know he is a piece of dang"..
well, the greasespot gods will insist on "dang" instead of the reality here..
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