"I'M just saying that he could STILL do the things that a church leader can do. He delegated a lot of responsibility to others. God covered for him as long as He did. People got hurt, but people got blessed, too. Not just me.
The big gray area here is that God is not obligated to reveal to us mortals exactly how he metes out justice for every jot and tittle of anybody's life...in this world...in that which is to come."
On this I doubt the discussion will end here and now.
I think God's revealed quite a bit about justice, how it works and what to expect. What we don't know is what we don't know, as they say and for those things out of our providence and jurisdiction we can ponder and do our best to understand and act accordingly but ultimately we must say "Thy will be done" when we face God in our most private and personal heart of hearts.
For the wrong we have done there will be many to bear witness of why any one of us deserve no less than oblivion. That side of the jury's stacked against me and if we look around hard enough, most of us and they're not suggesting we get a free ride on the Glory Train of Gold Streets. Find your worst enemy and get a report, if you don't believe me. Some of us more so than others.
In the end if there's no one else to stand for you, give 'em name. I'll give it my best shot. But I'm sure they'll be someone to explain why I'm not worth the time it would take to forget me.
Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit God's law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
. . . . . . . . .
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.
Sit not down without assurance. Get alone, and bring thy heart to the bar of trial: force it to answer the interrogatories put to it to set the qualifications of the saints on one side, and the qualifications of thyself on the other side, and then judge what resemblance there is between them.... Yet be sure thou judge by a true touchstone, and mistake not the Scripture description of a saint, that thou neither acquit nor condemn thyself by mistake.
If you're in that situation, you can deal with it one of two ways: if you're the man, you can curse your wife and say 'why does she keep doing this to me? God this is a pain in the butt." OR you can say to yourself 'whoa, she's hurting somewhere. God, I pray that you help her with whatever it is and show me what I can do to help her, In Christ's name amen.' Same for the woman.
Umm, method number 3: maybe they should TALK TO EACH OTHER?
quote: Umm, method number 3: maybe they should TALK TO EACH OTHER?
This is covered by "show me what I can do to help her (him)". You wouldn't want to say the wrong thing, would you? I suppose that too much verbal communication is better than not enough, however.
No. If he was a regular adulterer. If he used his wife as a cook/maid/occasional concubine and treated all other women as his virtual harem, then he should have some consequences. I'M just saying that he could STILL do the things that a church leader can do. He delegated a lot of responsibility to others. God covered for him as long as He did. People got hurt, but people got blessed, too. Not just me.
Yah, people got blessed so much that they abandoned TWI and they were so incredibly blessed they joined this board to discuss how many blessings Saint Vic bestowed on them.
Yah, people got blessed so much that they abandoned TWI and they were so incredibly blessed they joined this board to discuss how many blessings Saint Vic bestowed on them.
SoCrates
And......I don't think trading one form of bondage for another is really a blessing from God. It just has a different face. I used to think I got such great deliverance from PFAL. I certainly changed and stopped a destructive lifestyle......by simply adopting another one. A good stint in rehab would have been just as effective to get me off drugs, but the taint of TWI can take years to overcome.
I didn't become a Christian until I left TWI....and the realization of what I had so easily believed about God......although repented and forgiven....still can make me a little queasy.
As for the second part of your question, your phrasing..."the right circumstances". Now that covers a LOT of ground. Let's explore that.
As I said, men are not superior by creation to women. Some men think they are, without any prompting from twi. They already got prompting from family, peers, coworkers, church, etc. Women can get the same prompting. Let's say hypothetically, that a man is being compelled to say the words "I'm sorry" to his wife. She's overreacting to something and she's being emotional and the man knows that if she doesn't hear him convincingly say the words "I'm sorry" then he's going to be in the dog house indefinitely. So he says those words even though he doesn't feel like it. IMO this scenerio DOES play out OFTEN. One sided? You're right. So let's explore the other side.
Let's say, hypothetically, that a woman doesn't feel like having sex with her husband on any given day or night. She isn't angry with him. She doesn't have a problem with his "technique". She isn't having her period or any other medical situation, no, she just doesn't FEEL like it; that's really all there is to it. But she senses that hubby has been a bit fragile lately and she knows that if she says no that he will REALLY let it bother him, so she does it, even though she doesn't feel like it. Couples have to work through stuff like this all the time. It's an extension of "work out your own salvation". The "way of a man with a maid" goes a lot further than the sex act.
If you're in that situation, you can deal with it one of two ways: if you're the man, you can curse your wife and say 'why does she keep doing this to me? God this is a pain in the butt." OR you can say to yourself 'whoa, she's hurting somewhere. God, I pray that you help her with whatever it is and show me what I can do to help her, In Christ's name amen.' Same for the woman.
Ideally, the marriage will survive, but if one spouse allows him/her self to get into the habit of thinking negatively as a reflex and this goes on for years and years, then functionally, that marriage is flawed. ANY couple can put on a content face in front of others, but inside they're hurting. Some couples don't survive this.
So, Ham? What if your marriage was like this? Doesn't matter if you personally are the good or negative spouse. Your marriage has been dysfunctional like that for years, and you meet a woman you're attracted to and your first impulse is to be discreet, but the more time you spend together, the more it becomes possible that you will have sex with her. And it happens.
Therein lies the problem. See, you still don't see this, but history isn't something that happens to you.
Each person is a active participant in their own life.
How does sin happen? Not by surprise. George Carlin, of all people, explained this decades ago.
"A mortal sin had to be
-a grievous offense
-sufficient reflection, and
-FULL CONSENT OF THE WILL."
"It was a sin for you to WANT to feel up Ellen.
It was a sin for you to PLAN to feel up Ellen.
It was a sin for you to FIGURE OUT A PLACE to feel up Ellen.
It was a sin for you to TAKE ELLEN TO THE PLACE to feel her up.
It was a sin for you to TRY to feel her up, and
it was a sin for you to FEEL her up.
There were SIX SINS in ONE FEEL, man!"
He had the main point- although all of that was ONE sin. There were SIX STEPS to REACH ONE SIN.
Sin doesn't just HAPPEN to you-you happen to IT.
You might see Ellen and desire her. Then what?
A man who cares about what God says then CHANGES HIS FOCUS and puts it on something else.
The end of the story about Ellen.
A man who cares only about his own lusts, however, takes the DESIRE ("WANT to feel up Ellen")
and then makes the deliberate decision to prepare the sin. (PLAN to feel up Ellen,
FIGURE OUT A PLACE.") He then makes the decision to put his plan in action-although he could
have turned aside instead ("TAKE ELLEN TO THE PLACE". "TRY".)
You keep depicting this like vpw was going about his business, and discovered Ellen in his office
trying to feel HIM up.
The truth of the matter was that he made deliberate decisions to sin- and picked specific women
as the most opportune targets. He had placeS prepared, to make sin easier. He then used his
network of co-conspirators (certain lewd fellows and women of the baser sort) to arrange to
have the women meet him in places he planned to rape or molest them. To them, it was a surprise-
to him, it was another step in a detailed plan. Once there, he gave them lots of situational
ethics sayings and rationalizations, and usually tried to "seal the deal" with alcohol and drugs.
What should he have done? That's easy. Billy Graham, I have no doubt, has seen many, many
attractive women. What has he done about it, and what has he NOT done about it?
What he has NOT done: He has not had places arranged to sin with them, he has not arranged
for cheap motel rooms nor offices nor vehicles set up for cheating on his wife.
What he HAS done: He has made a policy of never being alone with a woman, not even in an elevator,
and keeps his office door open, making it difficult for lustful sins to pursue him into the office.
(Hard to sneak around and sin if you always have witnesses around. King Saul was required to have
witnesses with him to prevent that, and to ensure he could not be accused of that because he always
had men with him.)
You posted Ham being in a marriage that has failed for years, and then meeting some woman he's
attracted to, who's attracted to him, is not his wife, and she's eager to perform lustful activities
with him. "And then it happens."
No, see, you can't just dump Ham into this situation. If Ham's in a marriage, he has an idea if it's
working or not. Ham has the option of trying to fix it, leave it alone, or dissolve the marriage.
Many Christians who are not sex maniacs have no problem trying to fix a marriage, and trying harder
to fix it if they didn't succeed initially. Finally, if it's unfixable, they'd be honest and end the
marriage. A bad relationship that CAN'T be fixed is NOT a marriage, anyway, no matter what you call it.
So, Ham would not find himself several years into a bad marriage, then wondering what to do if a hot babe
wanted to do the horizontal hucklebuck with him. He's be in a repaired marriage, or be divorced.
If he was divorced, he couldn't be unfaithful to a wife if he decides to dance the horizontal with some
theoretical nymphomaniacal contortionist. (He'd still be sinning, but not with a wife.)
See, lots of Christian men each day decide not to sin against God, so they don't run around having sex
and satisfying their lusts. That includes the young and impulsive. When one is over 30, over 40, it
becomes a lot easier, since the lusts become more subordinate to the will as one ages. Men don't just
get up, generally, and have someone just orchestrate a situation and dump THEM in the middle of it.
If some woman tries to make THEM a sex object, the man can see the plan forming- a private place for
him to be taken, etc, and makes sure he's never in a fully private place with the woman.
I'm not going to go into the detail of theoretically blaming Mrs W because vpw himself kept going out
and trying to drug women and perform the horizontal mambo with them.]
Legally, you're still married and you just committed adultery, but spiritually, your marriage hasn't functioned as Christ with the church for years. Would that make you really evil? Only you can rightly divide that situation. Some marriages should have ended years before (they DID end in the minds of the couple), and one of the two people meeting someone new is what finally gets them to divorce. This is the only kind of "circumstances" that comes to my mind, but as for VP?????
No. If he was a regular adulterer. If he used his wife as a cook/maid/occasional concubine and treated all other women as his virtual harem, then he should have some consequences. I'M just saying that he could STILL do the things that a church leader can do.
I would not trust a mechanic whose car always broke down to fix mine.
If a computer tech's PC was always getting viruses, I'm keeping his hands off my machine.
I don't trust a 300-pound diet doctor.
I don't trust a Psychologist who gets into shouting matches with his receptionist.
If a man wants to tell me what God wants, and keeps making plans to sin whenever he's not
trying to tell me what God wants, I do NOT trust him to understand God nor to serve Him.
Why would you have a LOWER standard for a minister of God than for a mechanic, a diet
doctor, a computer tech? Anything to excuse vpw....
He delegated a lot of responsibility to others. God covered for him as long as He did.
VPW covered for vpw. vpw set up a NETWORK of sinners to facilitate and assist in his sins.
He was VERY thorough in making sure he didn't get caught when he sinned, and that his victims
would not be BELIEVED if they TOLD THE TRUTH to anyone. God disapproves of sin and does NOT
FACILITATE SIN- which means God WOULD NOT "cover for vpw's sins."
People got hurt, but people got blessed, too. Not just me.
The big gray area here is that God is not obligated to reveal to us mortals exactly how he metes out justice for every jot and tittle of anybody's life...in this world...in that which is to come. Many things will remain hidden.
Gal3:21...for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
If there's no law that gives life, then there's no law that takes it away. VP was definitely born again. His ministry got a lot of other people born again, too.
The part that is NOT a gray area is that God tells us what sin is, tells us to avoid it,
and tells us it's wrong. Anyone saying otherwise-or trying to excuse sin or justify sin-
should NOT be trusted as authorities concerning God.
So, Ham? What if your marriage was like this? Doesn't matter if you personally are the good or negative spouse. Your marriage has been dysfunctional like that for years, and you meet a woman you're attracted to and your first impulse is to be discreet, but the more time you spend together, the more it becomes possible that you will have sex with her. And it happens.
This sounds like something you'd hear on the Jerry Springer Show: "We were making out and it just happened."
I always wanted to yell back at the tv: "How did it just happen? He went to get a beer came back nude and fell on top of you while you were also nude?"
I just happens is nothing more than a rationalization.
A man who cares about what God says then CHANGES HIS FOCUS and puts it on something else.
. . .
And on the eighth day, God said "Let there balls and bats, gloves and a diamond which man may run around in . . . Let this activity be a diversion for man . . . and it shall be called "BASEBALL" . . "
Your marriage has been dysfunctional like that for years, and you meet a woman you're attracted to and your first impulse is to be discreet, but the more time you spend together, the more it becomes possible that you will have sex with her. And it happens.
This sounds like something you'd hear on the Jerry Springer Show: "We were making out and it just happened."
I always wanted to yell back at the tv: "How did it just happen? He went to get a beer came back nude and fell on top of you while you were also nude?"
I just happens is nothing more than a rationalization.
SoCrates
Old story, too- sinning and pretending things "just happened."
=======================================
Exodus 32
1And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
2And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.
3And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron.
4And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
5And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the LORD.
6And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.
7And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:
8They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
19And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount.
20And he took the calf which they had made, and burnt it in the fire, and ground it to powder, and strawed it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it.
21And Moses said unto Aaron, What did this people unto thee, that thou hast brought so great a sin upon them?
22And Aaron said, Let not the anger of my lord wax hot: thou knowest the people, that they are set on mischief.
23For they said unto me, Make us gods, which shall go before us: for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
24And I said unto them, Whosoever hath any gold, let them break it off. So they gave it me: then I cast it into the fire, and there came out this calf.
And on the eighth day, God said "Let there balls and bats, gloves and a diamond which man may run around in . . . Let this activity be a diversion for man . . . and it shall be called "BASEBALL" . . "
Wordwolf said in post #260, "You keep depicting this like vpw was going about his business, and discovered Ellen in his office trying to feel HIM up." ("Ellen", of course, is hypothetical).
I would add that even if he HAD found "Ellen" in his office, sexual misconduct would have STILL been a sin on his part constituting instant removal from a position of leadership. With all due respect, I would suggest that this particular scenario started by Johniam is completely and totally irrelevant.
Wordwolf also discusses how Billy Graham resisted temptation. Just to add more insight, Graham mentions in one of his writings that before he would go into his hotel room to retire for the evening, he would have one of his assistants scout out his room to make sure there was no one lurking for him. He took this issue very very seriously.
See, lots of Christian men each day decide not to sin against God, so they don't run around having sex
and satisfying their lusts. That includes the young and impulsive. When one is over 30, over 40, it
becomes a lot easier, since the lusts become more subordinate to the will as one ages. Men don't just
get up, generally, and have someone just orchestrate a situation and dump THEM in the middle of it.
I was at a wedding this past September, and I watched the groom hand a ring he had been wearing , to his best man. The best man, also engaged, took it and put it on. They both are incredible young Christian men. The ring was one that many young Christian men are wearing. It is a promise of sorts to keep themselves for marriage. Remember the days of purity and chastity? They are still alive and well in the lives of many many young Christian men.
This particular groom is part of a large network of friends who support one another and who keep each other accountable. No one gets away with trash talk. No one would even want to.. . . .
In TWI....we despised holiness, purity and God's design.
Wordwolf said in post #260, "You keep depicting this like vpw was going about his business, and discovered Ellen in his office trying to feel HIM up." ("Ellen", of course, is hypothetical).
I would add that even if he HAD found "Ellen" in his office, sexual misconduct would have STILL been a sin on his part constituting instant removal from a position of leadership. With all due respect, I would suggest that this particular scenario started by Johniam is completely and totally irrelevant.
Wordwolf also discusses how Billy Graham resisted temptation. Just to add more insight, Graham mentions in one of his writings that before he would go into his hotel room to retire for the evening, he would have one of his assistants scout out his room to make sure there was no one lurking for him. He took this issue very very seriously.
As per you first paragraph, BA, this is why I keep hitting on the point of victimizing the victimizer and having no concern for the victims. It's as if Johniam's value structure is upside down: Saint Vic (you can see his halo behind his horns) is the victim and all these women temped him, thereby victimizing him.
And even if you could rationalize once (which Saint Vic and Johniam seemed to have done a bang up job of doing) how rationalize the next..and the next...and the next...and the next...ad nauseam. Did it just happen...and just happen...and just happen...and just happen?
Again, Ecc. 9:18: Wisdom is better than weapons of war; but one sinner destroyeth much good.
God was not a co conspirator in VP's lifestyle. God is not a co conspirator in sin. Where do you get this garbage?
For someone who accuses Billy Graham of idolatry...you sure don't have a problem bringing God down to a human level yourself. The difference is....Billy G believes Jesus was fully God and fully man...sinless. Not conspiring in sin.
I'll ask you a question from PFAL: "God covered for him as long as he did." which god?
It seems to me a little contrary that God would "cover" for all his sinning, yet not allow him to be ministered to and healed of the ocular cancer and melanoma which eventually killed him
Oddly enough, the ministry claims cancer as a devil's spirit. And where there's one devil's sprit, there's often others. According to Saint Vic, I believe in PFAL, anything you can't control is a devils spirit because God always gives you freedom of will. Shall we ennumerate a few of the devil's spirits, by Saint Vic's definition, he had:
Alcoholism
Sexual Addiction
A BS spirit
Ocular Cancer
Melanoma
Anger (those famous Saint Vic temper tantrums)
And this is just off the top of my head. I'm sure if I wanted to take the time, I could come up with more.
Now why would our God and Father "cover" for a man possessed by devil spirits? People possessed need healing, not being covered for. So again, why was he denied healing?
Putting all this together we have an idea of which god covered for him.
I was at a wedding this past September, and I watched the groom hand a ring he had been wearing , to his best man. The best man, also engaged, took it and put it on. They both are incredible young Christian men. The ring was one that many young Christian men are wearing. It is a promise of sorts to keep themselves for marriage. Remember the days of purity and chastity? They are still alive and well in the lives of many many young Christian men.
This particular groom is part of a large network of friends who support one another and who keep each other accountable. No one gets away with trash talk. No one would even want to.. . . .
In TWI....we despised holiness, purity and God's design.
"In its simplest form, straight edge is a philosophy of staying clean and sober: meaning refraining from using alcohol, tobacco, and recreational drugs. For some, this extends to not engaging in promiscuous sex, following a vegetarian or vegan diet, not using caffeine or prescription drugs."
"Originally, straight edge was most closely associated with hardcore punk which developed in the late 1970s and early 1980s"
Interesting-while vpw was trying to get the hippie Jesus People to sin, there were punk rockers at the
same time abstaining from alcohol, tobacco, drugs, and promiscuous sex. Except for possibly the drugs
(vpw didn't take them, he just drugged women), it almost sounds like an anti-vpw movement-
HE chain-smoked, drank alcohol daily in his "coffee mug" and used mints all day to hide the breath,
and tried his hardest to engage in promiscuous sex.
"People who are straight edge do not smoke, do drugs or consume alcohol. There are no dietary or religious beliefs tied to straight edge contrary to media coverage."
"The basic beliefs that drugs and alcohol were not needed and should be rejected. That one should live against the grain of popular society and live by rules and standards from themselves and not the ones dictated by society."
Without a single verse of Scripture, they figured out that they should ignore the world's standards
and act by standards that avoided behavior of self-harm....which, of course, meant they skipped on
much sinful behavior. Many young Christians say the same (I've communicated with them in the last
few decades.) The main exceptions I've known, actually, are twi and ex-twi.
"If the world was flat I'd grind the edge
To the positive youth my heart I pledge
X on my hand now take the oath
To positive youth to positive growth
To positive minds, to pure clean souls
These will be all my goals."
Sure doesn't remind me of the "do as you fool-well please" vpw position.
These SECULARISTS seem to have a healthier "ministry" than this supposed "godly" man.
He was LOOKING for orgies. These people sound like they'd either flee one,
or-possibly- break one up like Jesus and the moneychangers.
"1. Refrain from illicit substances, such as alcohol, illegal drugs, and tobacco products. Straight-edgers reject the drug/alcohol lifestyle and instead choose not to pollute the body. However, occasional consumption of controlled amounts of alcohol are acceptable to some straight-edgers."
So, sXe people either avoid all alcohol, or the more moderate will tolerate SOME drinking
but condemn DRUNKENNESS. That's also the Biblical position.
"2. Respect your body. Contrary to common belief about hardcore punk, the straight-edge lifestyle in no way promotes self-harm of any kind. This means no cutting, burning, or harming yourself."
Again, sXe people, by using reason and logic, ended up on the same side as Scripture-
respect your body and take care of it, that's good stewardship.
"3.Abstain from promiscuity. This means that you shouldn't engage in casual hookups, one-night stands, etc."
Without a moral basis beyond reason and logic, they hit on the Scriptural position again.
Mind you, these 3 rules would have made sXe thoroughly unwelcome wherever vpw was running things.
vpw often "talked a good talk" in public-since he KNEW what behavior was wrong-
but for vpw, the reality was to COVER HIS TRACKS and SIN WHENEVER HE WANTED.
"4. Listen to straight-edge bands. This cannot be stressed enough. If you're straight-edge, then you should also listen to and appreciate the music. Start off with Minor Threat, then look for some related bands if you like them.
5. Learn the history of straight-edge. Research about the music, people, etc."
As a secular movement, they have no "Bible" to teach them morals- but their lyrics pass them along.
So, to keep the movement alive, they listen to lyrics that teach good morals,
and seek to learn the history of their movement, which is a good idea.
Oddly enough, you may notice vpw did his best to hide from Christian history, except for a
few moments- after the last book of the Bible was penned, there's a history blackout
until the Council of Nicaea, then there's another history blackout until the Protestant
Reformation and William Tyndale, then there's another history blackout until 1942
with vpw's supposed promise, then another history blackout (even of his OWN LIFE) until
he meets with the Jesus People and hijacks the hippies around 1968-1969.
Personally, I think a lot of it is LAZINESS- vpw skipped Church history when in various
seminaries. He's as good as said it was all useless. He also skipped Bible languages when in
various seminaries. He's as good as said he's learned BETTER than they could teach as a
"Since its founding in 1990, Promise Keepers’ mission has been to ignite and unite men to become warriors who will change their world through living out the Seven Promises.
Now, we have expanded our mission to encompass the entire Body of Christ. We’re still challenging men; however, we’re adding ministry to women and young adults—the family!"
"Many people in the Church today are Biblically illiterate." "PK’s goal is to ignite a revolution that will instill passion for hearing, obeying and daily meditating in the Word of God."
"To those who want to be part of the answer to the moral and spiritual decay in America; to those who desire their church to be a vibrant example of God’s love; to those who want to reach their community, their city and their world for Christ – the message of Promise Keepers is more timely, relevant, and vital than ever before."
A Promise Keeper is committed to honoring Jesus Christ through worship, prayer and obedience to God's Word in the power of the Holy Spirit.
PROMISE 2
A Promise Keeper is committed to pursuing vital relationships with a few other men, understanding that he needs brothers to help him keep his promises.
PROMISE 3
A Promise Keeper is committed to practicing spiritual, moral, ethical, and sexual purity.
PROMISE 4
A Promise Keeper is committed to building strong marriages and families through love, protection and biblical values.
PROMISE 5
A Promise Keeper is committed to supporting the mission of his church by honoring and praying for his pastor, and by actively giving his time and resources.
PROMISE 6
A Promise Keeper is committed to reaching beyond any racial and denominational barriers to demonstrate the power of biblical unity.
PROMISE 7
A Promise Keeper is committed to influencing his world, being obedient to the Great Commandment (see Mark 12:30-31) and the Great Commission (see Matthew 28:19-20)."
Those who flee in fear as soon as the word "Trinity" is spoken will find Promise Keepers to be
vile. The rest of us, who can actually read the rest of the page, will find much to commend them for.
"The Gospel is good news, the very best news anyone can hear. Children can understand it; it is so profound that the wisest theologians will never exhaust its riches.
The Gospel announces that God loved the world so profoundly that He gave His Son to die on the cross for lost sinners. Jesus Christ paid the penalty for our sins. Christ’s resurrection makes ours possible. Whoever believes in Christ will not perish but have everlasting life.
Jesus Christ is the only Savior, the one and only mediator between God and humanity, the only hope of the world."
"The Bible is the revealed Word of God, given in and through the words of human writers whom the Holy Spirit inspired and guided. The Bible is truthful in all that it affirms and without error as originally given by God. The Bible tells us what we need to know about God, His law, His salvation, and how we should live. The Bible is the only infallible rule of faith and life. It alone is the final authority establishing all Christian doctrine."
"In its simplest form, straight edge is a philosophy of staying clean and sober: meaning refraining from using alcohol, tobacco, and recreational drugs. For some, this extends to not engaging in promiscuous sex, following a vegetarian or vegan diet, not using caffeine or prescription drugs."
"Originally, straight edge was most closely associated with hardcore punk which developed in the late 1970s and early 1980s"
Interesting-while vpw was trying to get the hippie Jesus People to sin, there were punk rockers at the
same time abstaining from alcohol, tobacco, drugs, and promiscuous sex.
And they aren't born again! Drag.
quote: God was not a co conspirator in VP's lifestyle. God is not a co conspirator in sin. Where do you get this garbage?
For someone who accuses Billy Graham of idolatry...you sure don't have a problem bringing God down to a human level yourself. The difference is....Billy G believes Jesus was fully God and fully man...sinless. Not conspiring in sin.
I believe Jesus IS fully man and not God and sinless. Did God cover for David?
1 Sam 11:26,27 - and when the wife of Uriah heard that Uriah her husband was dead, she mourned for her husband. And when the mourning was past, David sent and fetched her to his house, and she became his wife, and bare him a son. But the thing that David had done displeased the Lord.
Question 1. How much meaningful consent did Bathsheba have in this? Question 2. Did it matter that she didn't literally belong to the King?
1 Sam 12:13 - And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, the Lord also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
Does this make God a coconspirator?
1 Kings 15:5 - Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord, and turned not aside from anything that He commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.
Notice it says the matter of Uriah the Hittite, not Bathsheba. Didn't her life count for anything? Was it God's will for her to be forced to have sex with David? Was it God's will for her to later be forced to become David's wife? David made all that happen to HER, yet he turned not aside...etc.
As I said, the big gray area is that God is not obligated to reveal to us exactly how he metes out justice for every jot and tittle of anyone's life. I didn't say VP turned not aside...etc. I DID say he should have some consequencees. But we now live in the administration of grace. VP didn't have to pray "take not thy holy spirit from me" like David did.
You all may continue to misrepresent what I said and meant all you wish. I maintain that we all have eternal life, incorruptible seed, access to God, peace in our hearts (not as the world giveth), and an Advocate (comforter); Jesus Christ the righteous. None of your arguments has negated any of this.
I maintain that we all have eternal life, incorruptible seed, access to God, peace in our hearts (not as the world giveth), and an Advocate (comforter); Jesus Christ the righteous. None of your arguments has negated any of this.
This is where you may have missed the point. You are assuming that what Wierwille taught you about those items is accurate. From what I've observed, regarding his credibility, you might want to examine his teachings with a more critical eye.
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Broken Arrow
I
WordWolf
Have I mentioned lately that I'm actually getting quite a bit out of this thread? I don't just mean in a sense of psychology/sociology/criminology, but in a sense of Christian learning. The whole p
T-Bone
morals are man-made? Really?!?! please provide some documentation to back up that philosophical assertion. personally i lean toward the christian idea [that does have a biblical basis] that man is m
socks
"I'M just saying that he could STILL do the things that a church leader can do. He delegated a lot of responsibility to others. God covered for him as long as He did. People got hurt, but people got blessed, too. Not just me.
The big gray area here is that God is not obligated to reveal to us mortals exactly how he metes out justice for every jot and tittle of anybody's life...in this world...in that which is to come."
On this I doubt the discussion will end here and now.
I think God's revealed quite a bit about justice, how it works and what to expect. What we don't know is what we don't know, as they say and for those things out of our providence and jurisdiction we can ponder and do our best to understand and act accordingly but ultimately we must say "Thy will be done" when we face God in our most private and personal heart of hearts.
For the wrong we have done there will be many to bear witness of why any one of us deserve no less than oblivion. That side of the jury's stacked against me and if we look around hard enough, most of us and they're not suggesting we get a free ride on the Glory Train of Gold Streets. Find your worst enemy and get a report, if you don't believe me. Some of us more so than others.
In the end if there's no one else to stand for you, give 'em name. I'll give it my best shot. But I'm sure they'll be someone to explain why I'm not worth the time it would take to forget me.
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cman
God didn't cover for vp, people did.
Well said socks, in the right time of his choosing we must face ourselves as well,
forgiveness is not to be underestimated in it's power to transform.
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geisha779
Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit God's law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
. . . . . . . . .
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.
Sit not down without assurance. Get alone, and bring thy heart to the bar of trial: force it to answer the interrogatories put to it to set the qualifications of the saints on one side, and the qualifications of thyself on the other side, and then judge what resemblance there is between them.... Yet be sure thou judge by a true touchstone, and mistake not the Scripture description of a saint, that thou neither acquit nor condemn thyself by mistake.
—Richard Baxter
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shazdancer
Umm, method number 3: maybe they should TALK TO EACH OTHER?
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johniam
quote: Umm, method number 3: maybe they should TALK TO EACH OTHER?
This is covered by "show me what I can do to help her (him)". You wouldn't want to say the wrong thing, would you? I suppose that too much verbal communication is better than not enough, however.
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So_crates
Yah, people got blessed so much that they abandoned TWI and they were so incredibly blessed they joined this board to discuss how many blessings Saint Vic bestowed on them.
SoCrates
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geisha779
And......I don't think trading one form of bondage for another is really a blessing from God. It just has a different face. I used to think I got such great deliverance from PFAL. I certainly changed and stopped a destructive lifestyle......by simply adopting another one. A good stint in rehab would have been just as effective to get me off drugs, but the taint of TWI can take years to overcome.
I didn't become a Christian until I left TWI....and the realization of what I had so easily believed about God......although repented and forgiven....still can make me a little queasy.
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So_crates
What's the prayer? Lord, grant me the strength to endure my blessings.
SoCrates
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WordWolf
Therein lies the problem. See, you still don't see this, but history isn't something that happens to you.
Each person is a active participant in their own life.
How does sin happen? Not by surprise. George Carlin, of all people, explained this decades ago.
"A mortal sin had to be
-a grievous offense
-sufficient reflection, and
-FULL CONSENT OF THE WILL."
"It was a sin for you to WANT to feel up Ellen.
It was a sin for you to PLAN to feel up Ellen.
It was a sin for you to FIGURE OUT A PLACE to feel up Ellen.
It was a sin for you to TAKE ELLEN TO THE PLACE to feel her up.
It was a sin for you to TRY to feel her up, and
it was a sin for you to FEEL her up.
There were SIX SINS in ONE FEEL, man!"
He had the main point- although all of that was ONE sin. There were SIX STEPS to REACH ONE SIN.
Sin doesn't just HAPPEN to you-you happen to IT.
You might see Ellen and desire her. Then what?
A man who cares about what God says then CHANGES HIS FOCUS and puts it on something else.
The end of the story about Ellen.
A man who cares only about his own lusts, however, takes the DESIRE ("WANT to feel up Ellen")
and then makes the deliberate decision to prepare the sin. (PLAN to feel up Ellen,
FIGURE OUT A PLACE.") He then makes the decision to put his plan in action-although he could
have turned aside instead ("TAKE ELLEN TO THE PLACE". "TRY".)
You keep depicting this like vpw was going about his business, and discovered Ellen in his office
trying to feel HIM up.
The truth of the matter was that he made deliberate decisions to sin- and picked specific women
as the most opportune targets. He had placeS prepared, to make sin easier. He then used his
network of co-conspirators (certain lewd fellows and women of the baser sort) to arrange to
have the women meet him in places he planned to rape or molest them. To them, it was a surprise-
to him, it was another step in a detailed plan. Once there, he gave them lots of situational
ethics sayings and rationalizations, and usually tried to "seal the deal" with alcohol and drugs.
What should he have done? That's easy. Billy Graham, I have no doubt, has seen many, many
attractive women. What has he done about it, and what has he NOT done about it?
What he has NOT done: He has not had places arranged to sin with them, he has not arranged
for cheap motel rooms nor offices nor vehicles set up for cheating on his wife.
What he HAS done: He has made a policy of never being alone with a woman, not even in an elevator,
and keeps his office door open, making it difficult for lustful sins to pursue him into the office.
(Hard to sneak around and sin if you always have witnesses around. King Saul was required to have
witnesses with him to prevent that, and to ensure he could not be accused of that because he always
had men with him.)
You posted Ham being in a marriage that has failed for years, and then meeting some woman he's
attracted to, who's attracted to him, is not his wife, and she's eager to perform lustful activities
with him. "And then it happens."
No, see, you can't just dump Ham into this situation. If Ham's in a marriage, he has an idea if it's
working or not. Ham has the option of trying to fix it, leave it alone, or dissolve the marriage.
Many Christians who are not sex maniacs have no problem trying to fix a marriage, and trying harder
to fix it if they didn't succeed initially. Finally, if it's unfixable, they'd be honest and end the
marriage. A bad relationship that CAN'T be fixed is NOT a marriage, anyway, no matter what you call it.
So, Ham would not find himself several years into a bad marriage, then wondering what to do if a hot babe
wanted to do the horizontal hucklebuck with him. He's be in a repaired marriage, or be divorced.
If he was divorced, he couldn't be unfaithful to a wife if he decides to dance the horizontal with some
theoretical nymphomaniacal contortionist. (He'd still be sinning, but not with a wife.)
See, lots of Christian men each day decide not to sin against God, so they don't run around having sex
and satisfying their lusts. That includes the young and impulsive. When one is over 30, over 40, it
becomes a lot easier, since the lusts become more subordinate to the will as one ages. Men don't just
get up, generally, and have someone just orchestrate a situation and dump THEM in the middle of it.
If some woman tries to make THEM a sex object, the man can see the plan forming- a private place for
him to be taken, etc, and makes sure he's never in a fully private place with the woman.
I'm not going to go into the detail of theoretically blaming Mrs W because vpw himself kept going out
and trying to drug women and perform the horizontal mambo with them.]
I would not trust a mechanic whose car always broke down to fix mine.
If a computer tech's PC was always getting viruses, I'm keeping his hands off my machine.
I don't trust a 300-pound diet doctor.
I don't trust a Psychologist who gets into shouting matches with his receptionist.
If a man wants to tell me what God wants, and keeps making plans to sin whenever he's not
trying to tell me what God wants, I do NOT trust him to understand God nor to serve Him.
Why would you have a LOWER standard for a minister of God than for a mechanic, a diet
doctor, a computer tech? Anything to excuse vpw....
VPW covered for vpw. vpw set up a NETWORK of sinners to facilitate and assist in his sins.
He was VERY thorough in making sure he didn't get caught when he sinned, and that his victims
would not be BELIEVED if they TOLD THE TRUTH to anyone. God disapproves of sin and does NOT
FACILITATE SIN- which means God WOULD NOT "cover for vpw's sins."
The part that is NOT a gray area is that God tells us what sin is, tells us to avoid it,
and tells us it's wrong. Anyone saying otherwise-or trying to excuse sin or justify sin-
should NOT be trusted as authorities concerning God.
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So_crates
This sounds like something you'd hear on the Jerry Springer Show: "We were making out and it just happened."
I always wanted to yell back at the tv: "How did it just happen? He went to get a beer came back nude and fell on top of you while you were also nude?"
I just happens is nothing more than a rationalization.
SoCrates
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Bolshevik
And on the eighth day, God said "Let there balls and bats, gloves and a diamond which man may run around in . . . Let this activity be a diversion for man . . . and it shall be called "BASEBALL" . . "
And it was so.
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WordWolf
Old story, too- sinning and pretending things "just happened."
=======================================
Exodus 32
1And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
2And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.
3And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron.
4And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
5And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the LORD.
6And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.
7And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:
8They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
19And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount.
20And he took the calf which they had made, and burnt it in the fire, and ground it to powder, and strawed it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it.
21And Moses said unto Aaron, What did this people unto thee, that thou hast brought so great a sin upon them?
22And Aaron said, Let not the anger of my lord wax hot: thou knowest the people, that they are set on mischief.
23For they said unto me, Make us gods, which shall go before us: for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
24And I said unto them, Whosoever hath any gold, let them break it off. So they gave it me: then I cast it into the fire, and there came out this calf.
==================================================
Aaron fashioned the golden calf himself.
When caught, the calf "just happened"- he put gold in the fire, and presto! This calf just popped out!
Aaron was minding his own business. And then it happened- the golden calf came out of the fire.
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Broken Arrow
I knew it! There were no "umps" in the original!
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Broken Arrow
Wordwolf said in post #260, "You keep depicting this like vpw was going about his business, and discovered Ellen in his office trying to feel HIM up." ("Ellen", of course, is hypothetical).
I would add that even if he HAD found "Ellen" in his office, sexual misconduct would have STILL been a sin on his part constituting instant removal from a position of leadership. With all due respect, I would suggest that this particular scenario started by Johniam is completely and totally irrelevant.
Wordwolf also discusses how Billy Graham resisted temptation. Just to add more insight, Graham mentions in one of his writings that before he would go into his hotel room to retire for the evening, he would have one of his assistants scout out his room to make sure there was no one lurking for him. He took this issue very very seriously.
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skyrider
WW.......thanks.
The nature of man is one of rationalizing and justifying his sins.
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geisha779
I was at a wedding this past September, and I watched the groom hand a ring he had been wearing , to his best man. The best man, also engaged, took it and put it on. They both are incredible young Christian men. The ring was one that many young Christian men are wearing. It is a promise of sorts to keep themselves for marriage. Remember the days of purity and chastity? They are still alive and well in the lives of many many young Christian men.
This particular groom is part of a large network of friends who support one another and who keep each other accountable. No one gets away with trash talk. No one would even want to.. . . .
In TWI....we despised holiness, purity and God's design.
..............................................................................................................
Socrates....this is about the funniest thing I have read on here.....What's the prayer? Lord, grant me the strength to endure my blessings.
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So_crates
As per you first paragraph, BA, this is why I keep hitting on the point of victimizing the victimizer and having no concern for the victims. It's as if Johniam's value structure is upside down: Saint Vic (you can see his halo behind his horns) is the victim and all these women temped him, thereby victimizing him.
And even if you could rationalize once (which Saint Vic and Johniam seemed to have done a bang up job of doing) how rationalize the next..and the next...and the next...and the next...ad nauseam. Did it just happen...and just happen...and just happen...and just happen?
Again, Ecc. 9:18: Wisdom is better than weapons of war; but one sinner destroyeth much good.
SoCrates
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geisha779
God was not a co conspirator in VP's lifestyle. God is not a co conspirator in sin. Where do you get this garbage?
For someone who accuses Billy Graham of idolatry...you sure don't have a problem bringing God down to a human level yourself. The difference is....Billy G believes Jesus was fully God and fully man...sinless. Not conspiring in sin.
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So_crates
Ministry logic--it can make a straight line look like a figure eight.
SoCrates
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WordWolf
If you start with the postulate AUTOMATICALLY that vpw pleased God,
you end up with ideas like "God helped a sinner not get caught sinning,
aka God's guilty of 'Aiding and Abetting' the very things He condemned."
If you start with postulates like "pfal was God-breathed",
(which John has not said that I am aware of),
then you end up with ideas like "God told vpw to plagiarize".
If you begin by taking false information as your starting point,
your "given" in formal logic,
the rest of your process will be in error since you started
with error.
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So_crates
I'll ask you a question from PFAL: "God covered for him as long as he did." which god?
It seems to me a little contrary that God would "cover" for all his sinning, yet not allow him to be ministered to and healed of the ocular cancer and melanoma which eventually killed him
Oddly enough, the ministry claims cancer as a devil's spirit. And where there's one devil's sprit, there's often others. According to Saint Vic, I believe in PFAL, anything you can't control is a devils spirit because God always gives you freedom of will. Shall we ennumerate a few of the devil's spirits, by Saint Vic's definition, he had:
Alcoholism
Sexual Addiction
A BS spirit
Ocular Cancer
Melanoma
Anger (those famous Saint Vic temper tantrums)
And this is just off the top of my head. I'm sure if I wanted to take the time, I could come up with more.
Now why would our God and Father "cover" for a man possessed by devil spirits? People possessed need healing, not being covered for. So again, why was he denied healing?
Putting all this together we have an idea of which god covered for him.
SoCrates
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WordWolf
Probably "Promise-Keepers." They hold each other accountable for honoring their commitments,
noting that they are not "Promise-MAKERS", they are "Promise-KEEPERS."
The sad part is that there's lots of UNBELIEVERS who have no difficulty understanding keeping
themselves from sinful behavior on the grounds that it's harmful to themselves.
They're called "Straight Edge."
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Straight_edge
"In its simplest form, straight edge is a philosophy of staying clean and sober: meaning refraining from using alcohol, tobacco, and recreational drugs. For some, this extends to not engaging in promiscuous sex, following a vegetarian or vegan diet, not using caffeine or prescription drugs."
"Originally, straight edge was most closely associated with hardcore punk which developed in the late 1970s and early 1980s"
Interesting-while vpw was trying to get the hippie Jesus People to sin, there were punk rockers at the
same time abstaining from alcohol, tobacco, drugs, and promiscuous sex. Except for possibly the drugs
(vpw didn't take them, he just drugged women), it almost sounds like an anti-vpw movement-
HE chain-smoked, drank alcohol daily in his "coffee mug" and used mints all day to hide the breath,
and tried his hardest to engage in promiscuous sex.
http://www.straightedge.com/whatissxe.html
"People who are straight edge do not smoke, do drugs or consume alcohol. There are no dietary or religious beliefs tied to straight edge contrary to media coverage."
"The basic beliefs that drugs and alcohol were not needed and should be rejected. That one should live against the grain of popular society and live by rules and standards from themselves and not the ones dictated by society."
Without a single verse of Scripture, they figured out that they should ignore the world's standards
and act by standards that avoided behavior of self-harm....which, of course, meant they skipped on
much sinful behavior. Many young Christians say the same (I've communicated with them in the last
few decades.) The main exceptions I've known, actually, are twi and ex-twi.
"If the world was flat I'd grind the edge
To the positive youth my heart I pledge
X on my hand now take the oath
To positive youth to positive growth
To positive minds, to pure clean souls
These will be all my goals."
Sure doesn't remind me of the "do as you fool-well please" vpw position.
These SECULARISTS seem to have a healthier "ministry" than this supposed "godly" man.
He was LOOKING for orgies. These people sound like they'd either flee one,
or-possibly- break one up like Jesus and the moneychangers.
http://www.wikihow.com/Be-Straight-Edge
"1. Refrain from illicit substances, such as alcohol, illegal drugs, and tobacco products. Straight-edgers reject the drug/alcohol lifestyle and instead choose not to pollute the body. However, occasional consumption of controlled amounts of alcohol are acceptable to some straight-edgers."
So, sXe people either avoid all alcohol, or the more moderate will tolerate SOME drinking
but condemn DRUNKENNESS. That's also the Biblical position.
"2. Respect your body. Contrary to common belief about hardcore punk, the straight-edge lifestyle in no way promotes self-harm of any kind. This means no cutting, burning, or harming yourself."
Again, sXe people, by using reason and logic, ended up on the same side as Scripture-
respect your body and take care of it, that's good stewardship.
"3.Abstain from promiscuity. This means that you shouldn't engage in casual hookups, one-night stands, etc."
Without a moral basis beyond reason and logic, they hit on the Scriptural position again.
Mind you, these 3 rules would have made sXe thoroughly unwelcome wherever vpw was running things.
vpw often "talked a good talk" in public-since he KNEW what behavior was wrong-
but for vpw, the reality was to COVER HIS TRACKS and SIN WHENEVER HE WANTED.
"4. Listen to straight-edge bands. This cannot be stressed enough. If you're straight-edge, then you should also listen to and appreciate the music. Start off with Minor Threat, then look for some related bands if you like them.
5. Learn the history of straight-edge. Research about the music, people, etc."
As a secular movement, they have no "Bible" to teach them morals- but their lyrics pass them along.
So, to keep the movement alive, they listen to lyrics that teach good morals,
and seek to learn the history of their movement, which is a good idea.
Oddly enough, you may notice vpw did his best to hide from Christian history, except for a
few moments- after the last book of the Bible was penned, there's a history blackout
until the Council of Nicaea, then there's another history blackout until the Protestant
Reformation and William Tyndale, then there's another history blackout until 1942
with vpw's supposed promise, then another history blackout (even of his OWN LIFE) until
he meets with the Jesus People and hijacks the hippies around 1968-1969.
Personally, I think a lot of it is LAZINESS- vpw skipped Church history when in various
seminaries. He's as good as said it was all useless. He also skipped Bible languages when in
various seminaries. He's as good as said he's learned BETTER than they could teach as a
layman.
==========================
Forgot to link Promise-Keepers....
http://www.promisekeepers.org/home/about
"Since its founding in 1990, Promise Keepers’ mission has been to ignite and unite men to become warriors who will change their world through living out the Seven Promises.
Now, we have expanded our mission to encompass the entire Body of Christ. We’re still challenging men; however, we’re adding ministry to women and young adults—the family!"
"Many people in the Church today are Biblically illiterate." "PK’s goal is to ignite a revolution that will instill passion for hearing, obeying and daily meditating in the Word of God."
"To those who want to be part of the answer to the moral and spiritual decay in America; to those who desire their church to be a vibrant example of God’s love; to those who want to reach their community, their city and their world for Christ – the message of Promise Keepers is more timely, relevant, and vital than ever before."
http://www.promisekeepers.org/home/about/7-promises
"PEOMISE 1
A Promise Keeper is committed to honoring Jesus Christ through worship, prayer and obedience to God's Word in the power of the Holy Spirit.
PROMISE 2
A Promise Keeper is committed to pursuing vital relationships with a few other men, understanding that he needs brothers to help him keep his promises.
PROMISE 3
A Promise Keeper is committed to practicing spiritual, moral, ethical, and sexual purity.
PROMISE 4
A Promise Keeper is committed to building strong marriages and families through love, protection and biblical values.
PROMISE 5
A Promise Keeper is committed to supporting the mission of his church by honoring and praying for his pastor, and by actively giving his time and resources.
PROMISE 6
A Promise Keeper is committed to reaching beyond any racial and denominational barriers to demonstrate the power of biblical unity.
PROMISE 7
A Promise Keeper is committed to influencing his world, being obedient to the Great Commandment (see Mark 12:30-31) and the Great Commission (see Matthew 28:19-20)."
Their summarized beliefs are here: http://www.promisekeepers.org/home/about/statement-of-faith
Their unabridged beliefs (plus chapter and verse) are here:
http://www.promisekeepers.org/home/about/statement-of-faith/statement-of-faith-with-scripture-references
Those who flee in fear as soon as the word "Trinity" is spoken will find Promise Keepers to be
vile. The rest of us, who can actually read the rest of the page, will find much to commend them for.
"The Gospel is good news, the very best news anyone can hear. Children can understand it; it is so profound that the wisest theologians will never exhaust its riches.
The Gospel announces that God loved the world so profoundly that He gave His Son to die on the cross for lost sinners. Jesus Christ paid the penalty for our sins. Christ’s resurrection makes ours possible. Whoever believes in Christ will not perish but have everlasting life.
Jesus Christ is the only Savior, the one and only mediator between God and humanity, the only hope of the world."
"The Bible is the revealed Word of God, given in and through the words of human writers whom the Holy Spirit inspired and guided. The Bible is truthful in all that it affirms and without error as originally given by God. The Bible tells us what we need to know about God, His law, His salvation, and how we should live. The Bible is the only infallible rule of faith and life. It alone is the final authority establishing all Christian doctrine."
etc.
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johniam
quote:
The sad part is that there's lots of UNBELIEVERS who have no difficulty understanding keeping
themselves from sinful behavior on the grounds that it's harmful to themselves.
They're called "Straight Edge."
https://secure.wikim...i/Straight_edge
"In its simplest form, straight edge is a philosophy of staying clean and sober: meaning refraining from using alcohol, tobacco, and recreational drugs. For some, this extends to not engaging in promiscuous sex, following a vegetarian or vegan diet, not using caffeine or prescription drugs."
"Originally, straight edge was most closely associated with hardcore punk which developed in the late 1970s and early 1980s"
Interesting-while vpw was trying to get the hippie Jesus People to sin, there were punk rockers at the
same time abstaining from alcohol, tobacco, drugs, and promiscuous sex.
And they aren't born again! Drag.
quote: God was not a co conspirator in VP's lifestyle. God is not a co conspirator in sin. Where do you get this garbage?
For someone who accuses Billy Graham of idolatry...you sure don't have a problem bringing God down to a human level yourself. The difference is....Billy G believes Jesus was fully God and fully man...sinless. Not conspiring in sin.
I believe Jesus IS fully man and not God and sinless. Did God cover for David?
1 Sam 11:26,27 - and when the wife of Uriah heard that Uriah her husband was dead, she mourned for her husband. And when the mourning was past, David sent and fetched her to his house, and she became his wife, and bare him a son. But the thing that David had done displeased the Lord.
Question 1. How much meaningful consent did Bathsheba have in this? Question 2. Did it matter that she didn't literally belong to the King?
1 Sam 12:13 - And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, the Lord also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
Does this make God a coconspirator?
1 Kings 15:5 - Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord, and turned not aside from anything that He commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.
Notice it says the matter of Uriah the Hittite, not Bathsheba. Didn't her life count for anything? Was it God's will for her to be forced to have sex with David? Was it God's will for her to later be forced to become David's wife? David made all that happen to HER, yet he turned not aside...etc.
As I said, the big gray area is that God is not obligated to reveal to us exactly how he metes out justice for every jot and tittle of anyone's life. I didn't say VP turned not aside...etc. I DID say he should have some consequencees. But we now live in the administration of grace. VP didn't have to pray "take not thy holy spirit from me" like David did.
You all may continue to misrepresent what I said and meant all you wish. I maintain that we all have eternal life, incorruptible seed, access to God, peace in our hearts (not as the world giveth), and an Advocate (comforter); Jesus Christ the righteous. None of your arguments has negated any of this.
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waysider
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I maintain that we all have eternal life, incorruptible seed, access to God, peace in our hearts (not as the world giveth), and an Advocate (comforter); Jesus Christ the righteous. None of your arguments has negated any of this.
This is where you may have missed the point. You are assuming that what Wierwille taught you about those items is accurate. From what I've observed, regarding his credibility, you might want to examine his teachings with a more critical eye.
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