A personal Soap Box

[chockfull]

VPs strategy with the way corps seemed to be like this: he would teach you pretty much all he knew about any biblical topic. But the flip side was, that he would hold you more accountable also. The alcoholic was a feeble individual, who needed more love than the average person. VP realized that his sermon was counter productive. He wasn't condemning John Nace or the way corps, he was 'upbraiding them with their unbelief and hardness of heart' (as he saw it) just as Jesus did with his 'way corps' so to speak, in Mark 16:14.

At least you wrote "seemed to be". That's because your only experience is with what is whitewashed and presented to the public. In reality, it was just another heavy-handed political organization, with those currying favor and climbing over others for their esteemed positions and titles. VP didn't hold people more accountable to more Word - to do that he would have had to live more Word. He didn't live it himself. That house was built upon sand.

I suspect this falls on deaf ears, however. You are as anti way brained as you accuse me of being way brained.

There are two psychological defense mechanisms in play here. One is rationalization. You rationalize sinful behavior. Then there is projection. You project your state onto others. Both are attempts by the mind to justify it's own state and existence. They are based in the fantasy world, not reality. That is why coming out of this state involves a "waking up" period. Many here have experienced this. You have not. TWI tries to keep people from this "waking up" period by keeping their sins and horrible behavior invisible, behind closed doors, covered. Their sins will be exposed and shouted from the rooftops, as Jesus promised.

You've been reading it for 3 1/2 months. By my definition, an agenda is a biproduct of anyone's belief system. The belief system is 'fixed' the agenda is 'adjustable'. Your agenda is to deconstruct twi any which way you can. By comparison, mine is to pick my battles and disagree with yours. If you believe twi did evil to you, then just stick to your guns. I'm not really trying to sell pfal to anybody; you already know pfal. The links you posted really did come off to me like self pitying excuses. The first step to getting out of that (as IF that's what you want to do) is to recognize that. You wanted my opinion or you wouldn't have posted those links.

My agenda isn't to deconstruct TWI in any way I can. It is simply to tell the truth, and that involves bringing out into the open that which they sweep under the carpet, hide, deny, and outright lie about. Why should leaders in a Christian organization need to lie to survive? If their habit is lying, how do you trust them when they try to sell you truth?

Others here do not blame God. They have connected with Him in other groups. Broken arrow, Geisha, even Kris Skedgell goes to a church. You seem to have the attitude of 'screw all of it'. Friend you look worn, like your heart has been torn. People may be fickle, but God is faithful.

Everybody here is worn, and their heart has been torn. Torn by wolves in sheep's clothing. Torn by false prophets and apostles turning the worship due God into their own adolation and agenda. Jesus is a savior for the worn and torn. He needs no group to fulfill this calling. The most fickle people in the world are the amoral in positions of power, such as those at the top of twi. It would take full-time effort to continue to convince them of your loyalty, or be cast aside. That's because there is a great deal of paranoia inherent in the combination of power and amorality.

What about you? Do you need a savior? Or are you just another miserable comforter, who come a dime to a dozen?

[geisha779]

I disagree. Agendas are usually hidden. You've just given me what you claim is your agenda. To get a deeper understanding:

What do you want?

No belief system is fixed. As people grow and learn, they adjust their beliefs as they get new information.

SoCrates

That is so true.

One of the most insidious things about the Way was that PFAL series, which just stopped the whole learning process. It gave us all the answers. They were the wrong answers, but we were given what were supposed to be THE answers to life's most existential questions. We were also given a permanent set of keys that were supposed to open any door and allow us to walk right through and live correctly. So, "If you want to have a powerful life, that is more than abundant too, then PFAL is the class for you" Sing it with me! Correct living as defined by a man who lived like hell.

The programs set up to learn through experience, such as WOW or the Way Corps, were designed so that we would experience life through that same lens given to us in PFAL. Hence the control.

Any real true learning through life experience was stopped....because how we dealt with life's challenges was already defined. We had the answers before the questions were even posed. It really was a system designed to retard any kind of true growth or maturity. It is no wonder, when people leave, they often return to the last place they were before becoming immersed in that way of understanding life. It can be like a whole chunk of one's life is missing.

I would say anger is a healthy and appropriate initial response to the realization we were duped, and actually reveals some kind of healing. Proper corresponding emotion to the reality of a situation...who would have thunk it! If someone tells you this is wrong, and you need to change or renew your mind back to that particular set of answers....run! Life is how we learn....they even give college credit for life experience. :)

[geisha779]

Others here do not blame God. They have connected with Him in other groups. Broken arrow, Geisha, even Kris Skedgell goes to a church. You seem to have the attitude of 'screw all of it'. Friend you look worn, like your heart has been torn. People may be fickle, but God is faithful.

Well, I DID blame God for awhile, I felt He betrayed me. . . . there were times I didn't believe in Him at all....and I didn't just ride into a church and connect. It didn't happen that way at all. It has been a tough road.

I identify with Socrates.....I understand his response and in no way is it self-pitying....it is a natural response when one comes to certain realities.

I have read his posts. What I read is frustration with the God portrayed in TWI, the belief system of TWI, and those who hold up this God as truth...who can blame him? My frustration is the same.

[waysider]

I said:quote: On page 18 of PFAL, VP says, " I promised the Father that if He would forgive me, as long as I lived I would never preach a negative sermon, I would never condemn anybody."

You saidThis is one way that you and some others consistently misrepresent me. I don't believe everything VP said was God breathed. Why do you act as if I automatically do?

John

This is a complete straw man argument. And, I don't believe it's accidental. You purposely changed my point. (That point being that VPW said he "would never condemn anyone again".) You misrepresented my position to make it appear that I was accusing you of believing what VPW said was God breathed. Why did you do that? I'll tell you why. You changed my position because you could not realistically deny that VPW made that statement in the PFAL book, so you invented a position you knew you could effectively defend.

I listed a link that clearly demonstates Wierwille did not honor that promise. Read the link and then address the issue head on.

"And remember, if you can't learn to get along with the other kids, you may discover they no longer want to play with you.".....My kindergarten teacher told me that a long time ago.

edit: Have you figured out a way to show where your quotes start and end yet?

Edited March 28, 2011 by waysider

[OldSkool]

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

[waysider]

I don't think John is a troll. I think he simply hasn't realized yet these tired old tactics no longer fly in this venue, despite his having 11 years of posting experience to serve as a primer.

Edited March 28, 2011 by waysider

[So_crates]

You've been reading it for 3 1/2 months. By my definition, an agenda is a biproduct of anyone's belief system. The belief system is 'fixed' the agenda is 'adjustable'. Your agenda is to deconstruct twi any which way you can. By comparison, mine is to pick my battles and disagree with yours. If you believe twi did evil to you, then just stick to your guns. I'm not really trying to sell pfal to anybody; you already know pfal.

OS, the above is what he answered when I asked him his agenda. This isn't his agenda, this is his means of carrying out his agenda.

I would ask, to what end. Note, the above has no mention of goal. That can only be understood by asking the questions:

• What do you want?
  
• How will you know when you have it?
  

SoCrates

[OldSkool]

I don't think John is a troll. I think he simply hasn't realized yet these tired old tactics no longer fly in this venue, despite having 11 years of posting experience to serve as a primer.

Well, whether he means to be or not he has been using classic trolling techniques. I have made the field somewhat of a casual study.

http://www.partyvan.info/wiki/Forum_Trolling#Ground_Rules

[chockfull]

Well, whether he means to be or not he has been using classic trolling techniques. I have made the field somewhat of a casual study.

Yeah, you're probably right about the trolling...

[OldSkool]

Yeah, you're probably right about the trolling...

Only Johniam can tell.

[Ham]

Maybe only his hair dresser knows..

[johniam]

I don't need a hair dresser if I don't have hair, and I don't need to "wake up" if I'm already awake.

[OldSkool]

Ahh..he just told.

[excathedra]

raising my son and my experience in the way are so far apart, i don't even know how to respond

i don't think i've ever blamed god for anything, but if i have, like i said in the forgiveness thread, it would be between him and me

--

oh, i think the term "getting results" is what got under my skin. it's never the way i think of my relationship

[OldSkool]

Exie, unless he can prove otherwise, his purpose is get under our collective skin - as varied as that may be.

[geisha779]

oh, i think the term "getting results" is what got under my skin. it's never the way i think of my relationship

That says in one sentence what it takes me paragraphs to write out. That is perfect.

[johniam]

All you guys got is....

VPW sinned in his flesh...therefore

nothing he ever said is true.

You can come up with many ways to say this and elaborate on it, but...

That's all you got.

Case dismissed.

[mstar1]

You dont take into consideration that actions teach much louder than words could ever speak.

Sociopaths and narcissists say wonderful things all the time to ensnare people in their web, it doesnt change the legacy of despair they leave behind them.

That is what they leave as 'the lesson'

So what if he reads 'put away lying', but has a phony doctorate, plagiarizes books, props himself up as a biblical scholar, and lived great portions of his life in secrecy

What has it he really taught other than scamming and lying your way through life is acceptable?

Nice verse, but he no matter how many times I heard him read it or how many greek gyrations he danced around with it, what he taught was that it wasn't the least bit important.

Edited March 29, 2011 by mstar1

[penworks]

All you guys got is....

VPW sinned in his flesh...therefore

nothing he ever said is true.

You can come up with many ways to say this and elaborate on it, but...

That's all you got.

Case dismissed.

Dear Johniam,

From what I've seen, you've made up your mind about VPW but for others reading this thread I'll just say this:

There is plenty of clear evidence of VPW's taking other people's books and stealing passages from them (two main ones are J.E. Stiles, and E.W. Bullinger), his inappropriate use of scripture verses taken out of context; his authoritarian rule over his group as witnessed by many of us who knew him; his condemnation of any other denomination; his denial of the holocaust (he sold The Myth of the Six Million in the bookstore); his alcoholism; his interest in pornography (i.e. showing bestiality films in the Advanced Class) and his sexual abuse of women as accounted by Kristen Skedgell in her book, Losing The Way. If people want to follow someone like that, then that is their choice.

I'll shamelessly plug my own story and article which are posted on the front page as further bits of "what we got" for your review.

I knew the man for 17 years. I know that not every single thing that came out of his mouth was a lie...if that had been the case, lots of us would not have become associated with TWI. I'll go on record as pointing out he told the truth plenty of times, but he used people and used the Bible to further his own aims. He made his claims sound like they made sense. He manipulated people and intimidated them. Each person's experience in TWI is different depending on many factors, but I suggest for those who want to know, that they seek out information about the man from those of us who knew him and read his books, like the PFAL book to see for themselves how he misused scripture and ranted about "unbelievers" among other things. He was a fundamentalist gone wild.

Remember this while you're making up your own mind:

"The fanatic inspires and breathes fear. It is the only tie that binds him to his fellow-man and God.

So afraid is he of doubt that he pushes it outside the law. Whether his dictatorship is intellectual or theocratic, he pretends to possess a unique and eternal truth.

Insist on a discussion, and he takes offense. He accepts questions only if he alone has the right to answer them.

It comes to this: The fanatic accepts only answers – his own – while his tolerant adversary prefers questions."

~ Elie Wiesel

Edited March 29, 2011 by penworks

[johniam]

Penworks: Duly noted, but, I think there are several others on this thread who have made up their minds about VP.

[So_crates]

Penworks: Duly noted, but, I think there are several others on this thread who have made up their minds about VP.

We made up our mind, you made up your mind.

So?

SoCrates

[johniam]

quote: I'll shamelessly plug my own story and article which are posted on the front page as further bits of "what we got" for your review.

I read the article a few weeks ago, and I just read it again. It pits VPs 'fundamentalist' position against a position which doesn't believe the bible is inerrant. But either position leaves room for the same potential, IMO.

VPs position is, in a nut shell...

the bible is God's word

God is perfect

therefore, the bible is perfect.

That is the premise for his research, right? He further says that the closer you look at something man made, the more imperfection you see, but the closer you look at something made by God, the more perfection you see. That is some air tight logic.

He always said read it for your self. But if anybody read it for themselves and came to a different conclusion than VP, there were problems. OK, point well made, but the other position is no different.

If I believe the bible is not inerrant, then my 'research' is going to look for scripture and supportive logic which agrees with THAT. You have to start with SOME kind of premise that only YOU can decide. If I'm a clergyman and I don't believe that the bible is inerrant, then I have to justify how I can believe in an imperfect word of a perfect God. This will involve insisting that my followers agree with my "take" on scripture, which is not inerrant. If one of my followers disagrees with my take on scripture, I'll eventually have to pull rank on him/them. How is this really different than VP as a mode of research? Different strategy; same potential for friction.

It made sense to us that if God is perfect, then His word had to be perfect as well. I think a lot of us got a lot of mileage off that.

[So_crates]

the bible is God's word

God is perfect

therefore, the bible is perfect.

That is the premise for his research, right? He further says that the closer you look at something man made, the more imperfection you see, but the closer you look at something made by God, the more perfection you see. That is some air tight logic.

He always said read it for your self. But if anybody read it for themselves and came to a different conclusion than VP, there were problems. OK, point well made, but the other position is no different.

If I believe the bible is not inerrant, then my 'research' is going to look for scripture and supportive logic which agrees with THAT. You have to start with SOME kind of premise that only YOU can decide. If I'm a clergyman and I don't believe that the bible is inerrant, then I have to justify how I can believe in an imperfect word of a perfect God. This will involve insisting that my followers agree with my "take" on scripture, which is not inerrant. If one of my followers disagrees with my take on scripture, I'll eventually have to pull rank on him/them. How is this really different than VP as a mode of research? Different strategy; same potential for friction.

It made sense to us that if God is perfect, then His word had to be perfect as well. I think a lot of us got a lot of mileage off that.

You building another strawman argument here.

First off truth is truth: it doesn't need us to agree or disagree with it. It stands by itself. You believe it or you dont at your own peril.

Say we were driving in a car, you the driver, me the passanger. Now say I saw you were going to run into a brick wall. You can tell me all you want about your driving record, how sturdy the car is, quote the owners manual verbatim, deny the wall exists, but the simple truth is when you hit that wall, its gonna hurt.

Ditto jumping off a 20 story building. Ditto not drinking water for over 3 days.

Second, truth stands questioning.

How do you arrive at truth if you can't question it?

Not too long ago, a group of scientist announced they discovered cold fusion. They published their experiment on the internet. Oddly, it could not be replicated, so it was discounted.

That's one of the rules of scientific method. It has to be able to be replicated. So how do you arrive at whether or not you erred in the replication. By comparing and asking questions.

So, "pulling rank" does nothing to help you arrive at truth. It helps you arrive at PI, private interpretation.

Truth is arrive by objectively finding out facts and then letting them speak for themselves. Failure to find truth comes from walking in with preconcieved notions, and then trying to make the facts fit your premises.

SoCrates

Edited March 29, 2011 by So_crates

[So_crates]

I will also add truth is arrived at through reasoning and argumentation. Argumentation reqires you question someones reasoning, ferreting out the logical errors.

Again, if you do not do this, you don't arrive at truth, you arrive at PI, private interpretation, or as its commonly called doctrine.

I'll give you a logical error from the PFAL:

Saint Vic mentioned, in the course of expounding on a scripture that there was a mathamatical principle involved. "Things equal to the same thing are equal to each other."

Let's try that in the physical world:

Apples=fruit

Oranges=fruit

Apples=Oranges

Don't think so.

Maybe emotionally:

Love=Involvement continuum

Hate=Involvement continuum

Love=Hate

Hmmmmmm.

SoCrates

Edited March 29, 2011 by So_crates

[mstar1]

This will involve insisting that my followers agree with my "take" on scripture, which is not inerrant.

No, not really, insisting that others agree with your take on things, is something peculiar to The Way and a maybe few other groups whose prime concern is control....

That is The Ways way, to force people into conformity and not allow them to think for themselves and make their own decisions.

I doubt that there are many people that perceive the scriptures the exact same way.

Some churches view that as refreshing, I know that I do.