This was taught in the Christian Family and Sex class, to the general populace of Way followers. So, with that in mind, I'm sure there are many marriages in The Way that fit this criteria.
"Any two believers can make a marriage work."......didn't seem to work very well for Mrs. and VPW, now did it?
I think there's a happy medium here. First there's the idea that everybody has just one perfect mate in life and that person is blowing in the wind and hopefully you will find that person and live happily ever after. How many people have that happen? Not too many, probably.
Then there's the idea that "any two believers can make a marriage work in the renewed mind" or whatever. How many people have THAT happen? Probably more than the other.
I think there's several people each of us could have married and had success with, but not "every believer". How many times do you suppose two people have had feelings for each other, but one of them has cold feet, so the other one marries someone else?
Paul McCartney is certainly an advocate for the first scenerio. He has cranked out a lot of silly love songs. In 'Maybe I'm Amazed' he says "maybe you're the only woman who could EVER HELP ME!" Yeah, we all feel like that at times, but over the years it takes more than intense feelings to have a successful marriage. I thought it was almost cruel that when Paul was 64 he was being divorced by that one legged golddigger.
One thing that has helped me is realizing that I'm not married to a page of scripture or a teaching tape, I'm married to a human who, like me, can be fickle and difficult. Sometimes you just screw the biblical principals and deal with that person as an individual. IMO.
The more I think about this, the more I think it was a pretty good way to keep people more committed to twi than each other or their family. If there was no love there to begin with and the relationship was based on furtherance if The Word ™ then if one person wanted to leave it was a lot easier for the other to stay. No love there to get in the way (no pun intended.).
When we were in marriage counselling, we were told to talk with each other about what we would consider grounds for divorce. Our minister suggested as an example that he and his wife had decided the only reason they would divorce is if one of them decided to leave the ministry. I told him that would not be the case for me because I had already left my family for the ministry and now knew from experience the pain of that loss - what I had done was wrong. I would leave in case of abuse of me or my children.
By the look on his face he wasn't thrilled with my answer.
There are culture which practice this to this day and many times the marriages are strong, and the individuals do develop love for one another.
Years ago, I had a student who's culture etc was from India. Don't ask about the religion, I have no clue.....it was an all girls school. One day after classes there were several girls hanging out in my room and girls discuss most things, ya know. One of the girls has just turned 17 and her parents told her that she could have her choice. She could go the American way....date various men etc and find a mate OR they would arrange a husband for her, complete with dowry etc. The choice was her's.....they were exceptional I believe.
We talked about it off and on for several days that week and next. The culture was quite specific.....it not only included a go-between to help be a matchmaker, but also involved living with each set of parents for a period of time, getting to know each other. Neither of the couple was supposed to work...they were supposed to devote themselves toward developing their nuclear family. That sounds to me like a whole lot less pressure than marrying the love of your life and scrathing a living out while setting up housekeeping. She had a few long heart to heart talks with her mother....and her mother was honest with her....and now that the children were raised and older....the mother said she didn't know how she could love her spouse any more than she did then.
I think if both prospective marriage partners in twi were really committed, AND if the rest of the old geezers could keep their hands, mouths, advice and interference to themselves, such marriages may have had a good chance at success. Young people in twi were not imersed in that culture, and therefore had very little understanding of how to approach such a thing.
The big difference between an arranged marriage, such as in some eastern cultures, and the type of thing TWI promoted, is that The Way marriages were intended to be a vehicle for promoting the organization. My first marriage was of this variety. In our required premarital counseling with one of The Way's ordained ministers, it was made very clear that our first obligation was to function as partners in promoting the organization. If one of the pair deviates in commitment to that goal, it spells disaster for the marriage. In essence, it's a marriage to TWI, not a marriage to each other.
Yeah, I agree with this. When I was in the Way Corps, we were all encouraged to seek a mate from the Way Corps, because it was unlikely we would "stand" on our own. We had been discouraged from relationships with the opposite sex up to a certain point and then right before graduation everyone started rushing into relationships from encouragement from Craig and the Corps leadership.
I think it was definitely thought more noble to wed based on shared "spiritual goals" rather than mutual attraction or other types of compatibility.
The more I think about this, the more I think it was a pretty good way to keep people more committed to twi than each other or their family. If there was no love there to begin with and the relationship was based on furtherance if The Word â„¢ then if one person wanted to leave it was a lot easier for the other to stay. No love there to get in the way (no pun intended.).
When we were in marriage counselling, we were told to talk with each other about what we would consider grounds for divorce. Our minister suggested as an example that he and his wife had decided the only reason they would divorce is if one of them decided to leave the ministry. I told him that would not be the case for me because I had already left my family for the ministry and now knew from experience the pain of that loss - what I had done was wrong. I would leave in case of abuse of me or my children.
By the look on his face he wasn't thrilled with my answer.
Our minister suggested as an example that he and his wife had decided the only reason they would divorce is if one of them decided to leave the ministry.
L-O-S-E-R
If marriage is instituted by God and defined by the Word then "what God has joined together, let no one seperate" means that the commitment is not based upon some dumb-@$$ organization.
I know a guy from the 11th corps. He said during his first year in residence he had a meeting with John Lynn. During the talk this guy said he was lonely. That sounds like it could have been seen as weakness, but JL later gave him the names of 4 single women, one of whom is now his wife. One thing I KNOW they had in common is they both came from well to do families. They just became grandparents for the first time. Seem to be OK.
Every girl I thought I was in love with didn't work out, before and during twi. One time there was an engagement. I met my wife at twig. Had our first date 2 months later, married 3 years later. I never felt in love with her like I did the ones that didn't work out. But we're almost 24 years now. Everybody's experiences are different. My mom married during the depression. She had to elope; her parents wanted her to marry a more educated man. She said the night they married she felt euphoric in love, but she hoped at the time she would still feel that way 10 years later. They didn't have any kids until 1940, she had to work before that and my dad got a correspondence course degree and got hired by Lear Inc. early 40s. It was death that parted them.
But saying that any 2 believers can make a marriage work? It's just not that simple.
Prayer is helpful. So is giving without expecting to receive again. If one of the 2 people is doing all the giving, that's a problem.
I am in one of those "any two believers" marriage. Twenty five years of shared goals and seven kiiddoes later, yeah we are still together. maybe any two believers CAN make iti work, but it sure is mighty lonely without genuine attraction. it seems like a real waste to spend an entire life time eith someone who barely tolerates your presence because you are traveling in the same direction :(
The idea of "any two believers....." was just another gimmick of the Vicster. It was intended to keep people from leaving the confines of Wayville to seek out life beyond the walls.
I think it should read "What God has put together, no man can put asunder" instead of "... let no man put asunder". Makes more sense that way. Not quite as... er... wimpy, or something. Oh how I wish you could see it in the original, keeedz!
I think it should read "What God has put together, no man can put asunder" instead of "... let no man put asunder". Makes more sense that way. Not quite as... er... wimpy, or something. Oh how I wish you could see it in the original, keeedz!
"Let so-and-so do this or that" is an expression in English language of the third person imperative mood. Other languages have different forms of the verb to indicate third person imperative, But English doesn't. "...let no man put asunder..." is a command, not a statement of fact (indicative mood). I enjoy playing with language!
I think it should read "What God has put together, no man can put asunder" instead of "... let no man put asunder". Makes more sense that way. Not quite as... er... wimpy, or something. Oh how I wish you could see it in the original, keeedz!
I kind of like the "let no man put asunder". It gives you a heads up that there will be dumb@$$es that will try to, that you have to fight. And yes, the word dumb@$$es is completely interchangeable with "TWI leadership", so feel free to substitute that in if the l33tsp3@k bad language offends.
i was talking to my mom about some of these things and about her first marriage (9 kids) and a husband / father who sucked. she was telling me about when us kids got all busy with each other and friends, there was no one to just say, "hey, how are you doing"? she said it's like being totally alone in a crowd....
so she definitely understands dear outandabout, dear rascal, dear rejoice, and dear me
quote: I am in one of those "any two believers" marriage. Twenty five years of shared goals and seven kiiddoes later, yeah we are still together. maybe any two believers CAN make iti work, but it sure is mighty lonely without genuine attraction. it seems like a real waste to spend an entire life time eith someone who barely tolerates your presence because you are traveling in the same direction
I think it was a really REALLY bad idea.
Rascal, I'm not picking on you; I think there's a lot of substance in what you said. What I'm wondering is, what were your options other than just to keep waiting? I was 34 when I got married and I sometimes thought my time had passed. Marriage is serious; you don't want to do it lightly, but you want to get it done while you're still young.
There's a woman in STL who got into twi in the mid 70s. Very attractive. She is now 60 yrs old. Never married. From the snippets of gossip I've heard, she has been too demanding. Wanted to marry Jesus, or something very close. No man ever measured up. But that's the other extreme. Either it's any two believers can make a marriage work, or nobody's good enough for ME! Of those two, I'll gladly take the former.
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excathedra
what a sad topic
waysider
The big difference between an arranged marriage, such as in some eastern cultures, and the type of thing TWI promoted, is that The Way marriages were intended to be a vehicle for promoting the organiz
chockfull
L-O-S-E-R If marriage is instituted by God and defined by the Word then "what God has joined together, let no one seperate" means that the commitment is not based upon some dumb-@$$ organization.
waysider
This was taught in the Christian Family and Sex class, to the general populace of Way followers. So, with that in mind, I'm sure there are many marriages in The Way that fit this criteria.
"Any two believers can make a marriage work."......didn't seem to work very well for Mrs. and VPW, now did it?
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johniam
I think there's a happy medium here. First there's the idea that everybody has just one perfect mate in life and that person is blowing in the wind and hopefully you will find that person and live happily ever after. How many people have that happen? Not too many, probably.
Then there's the idea that "any two believers can make a marriage work in the renewed mind" or whatever. How many people have THAT happen? Probably more than the other.
I think there's several people each of us could have married and had success with, but not "every believer". How many times do you suppose two people have had feelings for each other, but one of them has cold feet, so the other one marries someone else?
Paul McCartney is certainly an advocate for the first scenerio. He has cranked out a lot of silly love songs. In 'Maybe I'm Amazed' he says "maybe you're the only woman who could EVER HELP ME!" Yeah, we all feel like that at times, but over the years it takes more than intense feelings to have a successful marriage. I thought it was almost cruel that when Paul was 64 he was being divorced by that one legged golddigger.
One thing that has helped me is realizing that I'm not married to a page of scripture or a teaching tape, I'm married to a human who, like me, can be fickle and difficult. Sometimes you just screw the biblical principals and deal with that person as an individual. IMO.
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dabobbada
Pretty good, johniam,
My wife and I were also victims of that any two believers bullcrap. We lasted six years.
The idea was supposed to be two believers likeminded on the word.
If you are like minded, committed and harmonized on the scriptures, theoretically, it is possible.
After we were married, it was absolutely amazing how many differences of opinions we had in practice.
:(
We didn't know each other that long before we got married. Poor Lori. :P :wub:
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JavaJane
The more I think about this, the more I think it was a pretty good way to keep people more committed to twi than each other or their family. If there was no love there to begin with and the relationship was based on furtherance if The Word ™ then if one person wanted to leave it was a lot easier for the other to stay. No love there to get in the way (no pun intended.).
When we were in marriage counselling, we were told to talk with each other about what we would consider grounds for divorce. Our minister suggested as an example that he and his wife had decided the only reason they would divorce is if one of them decided to leave the ministry. I told him that would not be the case for me because I had already left my family for the ministry and now knew from experience the pain of that loss - what I had done was wrong. I would leave in case of abuse of me or my children.
By the look on his face he wasn't thrilled with my answer.
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excathedra
what a sad topic
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dabobbada
Hey now, our brains were laundered, hot air dried, and folded with a german matha-matical exactness and mind bending precision.
How could it not work! :blink: <_<
You darn old unbelievers.....
it's all your fault.
I'm taking my ball and going home. :P
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krys
There are culture which practice this to this day and many times the marriages are strong, and the individuals do develop love for one another.
Years ago, I had a student who's culture etc was from India. Don't ask about the religion, I have no clue.....it was an all girls school. One day after classes there were several girls hanging out in my room and girls discuss most things, ya know. One of the girls has just turned 17 and her parents told her that she could have her choice. She could go the American way....date various men etc and find a mate OR they would arrange a husband for her, complete with dowry etc. The choice was her's.....they were exceptional I believe.
We talked about it off and on for several days that week and next. The culture was quite specific.....it not only included a go-between to help be a matchmaker, but also involved living with each set of parents for a period of time, getting to know each other. Neither of the couple was supposed to work...they were supposed to devote themselves toward developing their nuclear family. That sounds to me like a whole lot less pressure than marrying the love of your life and scrathing a living out while setting up housekeeping. She had a few long heart to heart talks with her mother....and her mother was honest with her....and now that the children were raised and older....the mother said she didn't know how she could love her spouse any more than she did then.
I think if both prospective marriage partners in twi were really committed, AND if the rest of the old geezers could keep their hands, mouths, advice and interference to themselves, such marriages may have had a good chance at success. Young people in twi were not imersed in that culture, and therefore had very little understanding of how to approach such a thing.
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waysider
The big difference between an arranged marriage, such as in some eastern cultures, and the type of thing TWI promoted, is that The Way marriages were intended to be a vehicle for promoting the organization. My first marriage was of this variety. In our required premarital counseling with one of The Way's ordained ministers, it was made very clear that our first obligation was to function as partners in promoting the organization. If one of the pair deviates in commitment to that goal, it spells disaster for the marriage. In essence, it's a marriage to TWI, not a marriage to each other.
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shortfuse
Yeah, I agree with this. When I was in the Way Corps, we were all encouraged to seek a mate from the Way Corps, because it was unlikely we would "stand" on our own. We had been discouraged from relationships with the opposite sex up to a certain point and then right before graduation everyone started rushing into relationships from encouragement from Craig and the Corps leadership.
I think it was definitely thought more noble to wed based on shared "spiritual goals" rather than mutual attraction or other types of compatibility.
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excathedra
hi bad dabo :) and everyone else
i had such great hopes for my believer marriage and my unbelieving believer marriage
my only hope now is that it's true christ will come back
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chockfull
L-O-S-E-R
If marriage is instituted by God and defined by the Word then "what God has joined together, let no one seperate" means that the commitment is not based upon some dumb-@$$ organization.
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johniam
I know a guy from the 11th corps. He said during his first year in residence he had a meeting with John Lynn. During the talk this guy said he was lonely. That sounds like it could have been seen as weakness, but JL later gave him the names of 4 single women, one of whom is now his wife. One thing I KNOW they had in common is they both came from well to do families. They just became grandparents for the first time. Seem to be OK.
Every girl I thought I was in love with didn't work out, before and during twi. One time there was an engagement. I met my wife at twig. Had our first date 2 months later, married 3 years later. I never felt in love with her like I did the ones that didn't work out. But we're almost 24 years now. Everybody's experiences are different. My mom married during the depression. She had to elope; her parents wanted her to marry a more educated man. She said the night they married she felt euphoric in love, but she hoped at the time she would still feel that way 10 years later. They didn't have any kids until 1940, she had to work before that and my dad got a correspondence course degree and got hired by Lear Inc. early 40s. It was death that parted them.
But saying that any 2 believers can make a marriage work? It's just not that simple.
Prayer is helpful. So is giving without expecting to receive again. If one of the 2 people is doing all the giving, that's a problem.
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rascal
I am in one of those "any two believers" marriage. Twenty five years of shared goals and seven kiiddoes later, yeah we are still together. maybe any two believers CAN make iti work, but it sure is mighty lonely without genuine attraction. it seems like a real waste to spend an entire life time eith someone who barely tolerates your presence because you are traveling in the same direction :(
I think it was a really REALLY bad idea.
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waysider
The idea of "any two believers....." was just another gimmick of the Vicster. It was intended to keep people from leaving the confines of Wayville to seek out life beyond the walls.
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outandabout
Yeah, me too
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Rejoice
I think there are a lot of us in this same place...
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OperaBuff
I think it should read "What God has put together, no man can put asunder" instead of "... let no man put asunder". Makes more sense that way. Not quite as... er... wimpy, or something. Oh how I wish you could see it in the original, keeedz!
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Steve Lortz
"Let so-and-so do this or that" is an expression in English language of the third person imperative mood. Other languages have different forms of the verb to indicate third person imperative, But English doesn't. "...let no man put asunder..." is a command, not a statement of fact (indicative mood). I enjoy playing with language!
Love,
Steve
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chockfull
I kind of like the "let no man put asunder". It gives you a heads up that there will be dumb@$$es that will try to, that you have to fight. And yes, the word dumb@$$es is completely interchangeable with "TWI leadership", so feel free to substitute that in if the l33tsp3@k bad language offends.
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excathedra
i was talking to my mom about some of these things and about her first marriage (9 kids) and a husband / father who sucked. she was telling me about when us kids got all busy with each other and friends, there was no one to just say, "hey, how are you doing"? she said it's like being totally alone in a crowd....
so she definitely understands dear outandabout, dear rascal, dear rejoice, and dear me
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johniam
quote: I am in one of those "any two believers" marriage. Twenty five years of shared goals and seven kiiddoes later, yeah we are still together. maybe any two believers CAN make iti work, but it sure is mighty lonely without genuine attraction. it seems like a real waste to spend an entire life time eith someone who barely tolerates your presence because you are traveling in the same direction
I think it was a really REALLY bad idea.
Rascal, I'm not picking on you; I think there's a lot of substance in what you said. What I'm wondering is, what were your options other than just to keep waiting? I was 34 when I got married and I sometimes thought my time had passed. Marriage is serious; you don't want to do it lightly, but you want to get it done while you're still young.
There's a woman in STL who got into twi in the mid 70s. Very attractive. She is now 60 yrs old. Never married. From the snippets of gossip I've heard, she has been too demanding. Wanted to marry Jesus, or something very close. No man ever measured up. But that's the other extreme. Either it's any two believers can make a marriage work, or nobody's good enough for ME! Of those two, I'll gladly take the former.
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excathedra
i don't know. i'm just screwed up plain and simple
first wayfer marriage just turned 25
second marriage nonwayfer just turned 37
i just don't believe in marriage or soulmates or any of that crap
maybe i should become a nun and marry jesus
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shortfuse
Ah, you're fine. Marriage is hard and they often don't workout. Doesn't mean you're screwed up.
Don't marry Jesus. I hear he can be a real a-hole sometimes.
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excathedra
awwww, will you marry me shortfuse?
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