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Twelve step program

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I wonder what type of alcoholic Wierwille was? :drink:

The possessed kind. ;)

Edited by JavaJane

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Thanks for your contribution, Johniam, but it really would be more helpful if the topic remained a discussion about the 12 steps and whether they are useful or not.

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I do have an acquaintance, a Christian man, who was alcoholic, into drugs too I think; he loves going to AA, speaks frequently at various meetings (not just at AA meetings) to help others overcome their addiction - in fact, seems to have made it his personal ministry. He knows what God has rescued him from and loves sharing his story with others. I think he sees AA as God's rescue plan for him.

In that case maybe AA is his church, and maybe a better one than sitting in a pew somewhere.

I feel encouraged by replies that indicate the success of this program. Another of those TWI stumbling blocks kicked to the kerb, I think. :dance:

That's the one thing I do love to see. When the shackles of the Way fall off, all things are possible!!!!

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In reflecting on my experience with AA,

I saw some "addicted to AA", in a way.

At least they are not getting drunk and killing themselves and others.

Some seemed afraid to quit AA for fear of going back to drinking.

I don't know that for sure, but an educated guess.

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In reflecting on my experience with AA,

I saw some "addicted to AA", in a way.

I saw the same with TWI.

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Yes, I'm sure one could become "addicted" to the meetings...friendship, companionship, likeminded people, wanting to be understood, not judged - same sort of thing that brings people into churches - or cults.

Tonight at church was the 8th step in this "spiritual journey" that they're taking us on. I have to say, since starting this thread and considering all your replies, I've found this evenings talk (sermon) more helpful and listened to it in some different sort of way.

The way the sermon series is being presented is: we're addicted to self. Addition to ego. To our greedy desires. To our "oil addiction" in use of cars, plastics, etc. Our addition to the "now" culture. Or maybe to computers, games, Facebook, etc, which are often used to substitute for real companionship with the people right there in front of you.

The vicar in charge would like us to reflect on our lives, how to examine some of our barriers to God, and how we can become more open to God working in our lives.

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Yes, I'm sure one could become "addicted" to the meetings...friendship, companionship, likeminded people, wanting to be understood, not judged - same sort of thing that brings people into churches - or cults.

Not only this, but in the case of an alcoholic they have a disease - alcoholism. Some people aren't addicted to AA, they are battling the urge to not drink EVERY day of their lives. To parrot what Wierwille taught on alcoholism is to perpetrate his lack of understanding on the topic. Twinky, I am not directing this at you, but to those who would perpetuate Wierwille's teachings on the subject.

And if Wierwille and company had such a firm grip on the subject because they were spiritual giants operating the manifestations of holy spirit, how come they kicked alcoholics out in stead of kicking the supposed spirit out? Ya. Thought so.

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I don't know if VPW spoke against the 12 steps.

I do know LCM spoke against the program, as being a counterfeit.

As for VPW, reports here suggest he was an alcoholic who didn't recognize it, or recognized it and didn't care to do anything about it. (He was also addicted to nicotine - there's a Nicotine Anonymous set-up like the Alkies Anon groups). Maybe VPW had tried one or other programs and failed to stick to the program. (...or maybe not; if he had, he would surely have incorporated it into PFAL somehow.)

I am sure that these programs have enough expertise to not only help people contain their cravings for whatever their additions are, but also to help them recognize associated physical illnesses (like recognizing signs of liver failure or lung disease) and encouraging participants to get medical attention and maintain any physical regimes that may also be necessary.

In other words, they deal with an aspect of addiction but not all aspects - not liver or lung transplants, not expecting miraculous cures - not over-promising, but being there and being wholly supportive.

Something to be learned from that, too.

Not something you'd want to do, though, if you want to garner all the glory and all the attention (and all the money) to your own organization.

Has anyone got any other "12 steps helped me/my acquaintance" stories in areas other than alcoholism? Overcoming drug addition, maybe, or overcoming other problems?

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1350853618[/url]' post='547531']

The vicar in charge would like us to reflect on our lives, how to examine some of our barriers to God, and how we can become more open to God working in our lives.

That sounds a whole lot nicer than hearing a minister scream vulgar things at his people while he sucks on half a Tic Tac.

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Has anyone got any other "12 steps helped me/my acquaintance" stories in areas other than alcoholism? Overcoming drug addition, maybe, or overcoming other problems?

My former neighbor had several adult kids who had made great strides battling serious Oxycontin addictions using AA/NA. The steps work if people stick with them and tap into their sponsor when troubles arise.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_steps

a little about it

the toughest step is number one

even when one admits to #1

it's when they actually believe it

and ready to do something about it

the only requirement of AA is -

that you want to stop drinking

whether you still are or not

anyway it helped me out of hell

long enough

so that I could think clearly enough

to end the alcohol forever

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anyway it helped me out of hell

long enough

so that I could think clearly enough

to end the alcohol forever

I am really glad to hear that. Some people are able to get a handle on it and quit, or moderate themselves. My uncle, who is a chronic alcoholic absolutely needs the support of AA to not drink. His wife is an ex-prescription drug addict and they have been a huge support for each other. The interesting thing is he became Christian through AA. But he still needs AA after 30 years. He has progressed to where he can be around alcohol and not be bothered by it. But he still struggles with the urge to drink on a daily basis.

My uncle has helped countless people attain sobriety over the years by sponsoring them through AA. He has done some really good things with his life because of living the 12 steps. It's because of people like him (and others) that I get bristled (not at you) when dealing with TWI's evil doctrines condemning AA. My uncle is more Christian than Martindale, Rosalie, Donna or whoever you want to name at the top of that crap heap ever was. He is a good man, full of good works that gives God the glory and has accepted Jesus as his Lord and lived it for years.

I'm not miffed with you in the least. But when ever the topic comes up I bristle. Partly, because at one point I held him in low esteem because of what Craig taught. My uncle is a better person than me.

Edited by OldSkool

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no i'm not upset at or with anyone

i do understand what you are saying

the aa deal helped me changed a lot of things

more then i thought it would

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In many ways AA has done a work that TWI was and is too lazy to ever do anything close to. They have taken a specific category of people with special needs and dedicated resources to helping them. This includes work evaluating that category of people medically, psychologically, sociologically, setting up an infrastructure of meetings and mentorships, and packaging it into a simple enough program to implement that you see groups operating under their banner almost anywhere you go.

TWI has a McDonald's approach - one size fits all. If someone shows themselves to have special needs, rather than doing any work at all towards adapting to meet those needs, TWI basically will isolate them, attack them, and eventually cast them out. Oh, and they will do this while vehemently denying they do anything like this with their mouths.

In many ways, AA meets what society's expectations are for a non-profit. Help the community in tangible ways. TWI does not.

  • Upvote 3

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Substance abuse is a nasty animal,Twi,was a start for me people my own age.

The spiel was just as toxic in the long run.Too bad where the chewy center was supposed

to be it was a rotten apple

  • Upvote 2

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quote from wikipedia:

After a transcendent experience while under the influence of LSD, Bill Wilson considered adding an additional, thirteenth step which incorporated maintenance usage of LSD. However, he was dissuaded from doing so by Aldous Huxley.

Nice.

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quote from wikipedia:

After a transcendent experience while under the influence of LSD, Bill Wilson considered adding an additional, thirteenth step which incorporated maintenance usage of LSD. However, he was dissuaded from doing so by Aldous Huxley.

Nice.

"quote from wikipedia"

How about at least telling us what page that was from so we can find it

in the original without a long search for the relevant paragraph

on a dozen related pages?

If you tried, you could post a direct link to the page, but you can

post its name without any skill at posting.

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"quote from wikipedia"

I was just wondering what the hell the quote has to do with anything.

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I was just wondering what the hell the quote has to do with anything.

That's the next question.

He gave no source, so that's not so much a "quote" as a "rumor", though, so I

want to know if he made it up or if I can see it's legitimate. Further, there's

occasional wikipedia vandalism, so I wanted to check if it was legitimately

posted THERE if it was ever there. THEN I'd like to know what relevance it has

to this discussion-if any.

  • Upvote 1

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-step_program

Under the "Twelve Steps" subhead. (Not hard to find quotations. All you have to do is enclose them in quotation marks in Google, and if they've been quoted accurately, voila.)

Back to the topic, I guess LCM ragged on AA after my time. Ironically, I never heard VPW say anything bad about it. The legend around NK was that he had helped get a chapter of AA started in the area. I have no idea if that was true, but I heard it more than once from HQ old-timers.

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