In Modern English the subjunctive form of a verb is in many cases the same as a corresponding indicative form, and thus subjunctives are not a very visible grammatical feature of English. For most verbs, the only distinct subjunctive form is found in the third-person singular of the present tense, where the subjunctive lacks the -s ending: It is necessary that he see a doctor (contrasted with the indicative he sees). However, the verb be has not only a distinct present subjunctive (be, as in I suggest that they be removed) but also a past subjunctive were (as in If I were rich, ...).
...The distinction between present and past is one of tense; the distinction between indicative and subjunctive is one of mood....
These two tenses of the subjunctive have no particular connection in meaning with present and past time. Terminology varies; sometimes what is called the present subjunctive here is referred to simply as the subjunctive, and, the form were may be treated just as an alternative irrealis form of was rather than a past subjunctive.
The past subjunctive exists as a distinct form only for the verb be, which has the form were throughout:
Past indicative: I was, you were, he/she/it was, we were, they were
Past subjunctive: (if) I were, (if) you were, (if) he/she/it were, (if) we were, (if) they were
In the past tense there is no difference between the two moods as regards manner of negation: I was not; (if) I were not. Verbs other than be are described as lacking a past subjunctive, or possibly as having a past subjunctive identical in form to the past indicative: (if) I owned; (if) I did not own.
...
Irrealis moods are the set of grammatical moods that indicate that something is not actually the case or a certain situation or action is not known to have happened. Simply put, they are any verb or sentence mood that are not realis moods. They may be part of expressions of necessity, possibility, requirement, wish or desire, fear, or as part of counterfactual reasonings, etc.
Irrealisverb forms are used when speaking of an event which has not happened, is not likely to happen, or is otherwise far removed from the real course of events. For example, in the sentence "If you had done your homework, you wouldn't have failed the class", had done is an irrealis verb form.
Some languages have distinct grammatical forms that indicate that the event described by a specific verb is an irrealis verb. Many of the Indo-European languages preserve a subjunctive mood that functions as an irrealis. Some also preserve an optative mood that describes events that are wished for or hoped for but not factual.
Common irrealis moods are the imperative, the conditional, the subjunctive, the optative, the jussive, and the potential. For other examples, see the main article.
In this case - guess what! - VPW appears for once actually to have been correct grammatically. Which is pretty much a first for him. PFAL is littered with his misunderstandings of English grammar.
Infuriated me during the class. Infuriates me to hear VPW-worshippers trot out the same errors now.
(Don't ask me anything about the other irrealis moods mentioned. Heck!)
He knew much better. He knew what was Godly behavior and what wasn't He knew what was appropriate and what definitely wasn't. And where he didn't know - he wasn't circumspect, and erred on the side of caution. No, he just erred ... and erred ... and erred. A deliberate slap on the face of God.
And God will reward him appropriately :eusa_clap:/> :mad2:/>
"The way of a fool is right in his own eyes..." Proverbs 12:15a
"All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes..." Proverbs 16:2a
"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes..." Proverbs 21:2a
If you think, over and over again, that something is okay, your heart will come to believe that it IS okay.
That's why Proverbs 4:23 says to keep our hearts with all diligence, because out of them are the farthermost limits to the boundaries of our lives.
That's why Jeremiah 17:9 says the heart is deceitful above all things. If you tell your heart over and over that it's okay for YOU to bend the rules, to shirk your duty, to be disobedient, to plagiarize others and pretend YOU are an apostle, to require people to send YOU their tithes and offerings for your opulence, to show a grandfatherly face on the main stage at the ROA, and then melt innocent peoples'faces behind the scenes... your heart will tell you that those things are perfectly okay!
If you've told your heart over and over again that God's grace makes you clean, even as you drug and rape your followers, then your heart will reassure you that what you are doing is perfectly clean.
Werewilles' attitude was one of arrogance, he knew better than God did. I have neither seen nor heard of any evidence that he became humble before his death. His attitude of heart was the reason he could not fathom anything he had done wrong. In his own opinion, he HADN'T done anything wrong!
This is from WordWolf's post #10 above: The bold is mine for emphasis
[snip]
He claimed he was searching earnestly and was UNABLE to find where he had<br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252);">displeased God, where he'd disobeyed God, to the degree he couldn't get the<br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252);">magical healing he claimed God would give.
God's healing is real. I've seen some miraculous healings, I've received it a time or two and I've ministered it a time or two...and many of you have done likewise.
It's too bad that the man who taught about it wasn't convinced. WordWolf didn't make a mistake in writing....vp considered God's healing as "magic". I've never known God to do any magic!
"The way of a fool is right in his own eyes..." Proverbs 12:15a
"All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes..." Proverbs 16:2a
"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes..." Proverbs 21:2a
If you think, over and over again, that something is okay, your heart will come to believe that it IS okay.
That's why Proverbs 4:23 says to keep our hearts with all diligence, because out of them are the farthermost limits to the boundaries of our lives.
That's why Jeremiah 17:9 says the heart is deceitful above all things. If you tell your heart over and over that it's okay for YOU to bend the rules, to shirk your duty, to be disobedient, to plagiarize others and pretend YOU are an apostle, to require people to send YOU their tithes and offerings for your opulence, to show a grandfatherly face on the main stage at the ROA, and then melt innocent peoples'faces behind the scenes... your heart will tell you that those things are perfectly okay!
If you've told your heart over and over again that God's grace makes you clean, even as you drug and rape your followers, then your heart will reassure you that what you are doing is perfectly clean.
Werewilles' attitude was one of arrogance, he knew better than God did. I have neither seen nor heard of any evidence that he became humble before his death. His attitude of heart was the reason he could not fathom anything he had done wrong. In his own opinion, he HADN'T done anything wrong!
Love,
Steve
This was worth repeating. It sums up vpw's attitude problems nicely.
vpw only thought of vpw as human, and other people didn't count,
so they only mattered in relation to what he could get from them.
So, there was nothing wrong with telling them all the things from
Scripture while violating all the things from Scripture in what he
did to them....
when he wasn't telling them the opposite of Scripture because
that suited him better.
He also knew to keep that last part a secret and continue to tell
MOST people Scripture and teach a handful to lie, cheat and
exploit instead- because he KNEW he was teaching 2 different,
contradictory things and thought that was ok as long as he got
what he wanted- even though Scripture said the opposite.
He had given his heart exactly what it needed to hear to tell him
what he was doing wasn't wrong-
then he went to his grave unable to find where he'd gone wrong.
The supposed "man of God for our day and time",
"THE Teacher" who taught the Bible
"like it hadn't been known since the First Century"
spent more than a decade deceiving, plagiarizing,
drugging and raping,
and at the end, looked back and said
"What could I have done that displeased God Almighty?
I can't find anything."
He deceived his heart, his heart deceived him back.
God's healing is real. I've seen some miraculous healings, I've received it a time or two and I've ministered it a time or two...and many of you have done likewise.
It's too bad that the man who taught about it wasn't convinced. WordWolf didn't make a mistake in writing....vp considered God's healing as "magic". I've never known God to do any magic!
The purported magician (practitioner of magic) attempts to change reality
to conform to his wishes and will. He believes he can change reality to
match what he wants by performing something or other.
vpw's "Word of Faith" doctrinal system was/is MAGICAL.
If one BELIEVES, then one WILL receive no matter if one's belief is faulty.
Think it works?
Any Christian would appreciate being rich.
How many practitioners of vpw's magical "believing equals receiving" doctrine
have hit the Lottery? There's big, multistate Powerball and similar jackpots
every week. By now, that could have meant tens of thousands (at least) of
jackpots for thousands of people who CLAIM it should work.
vpw's system reduced God to a Divine Genie who was FORCED to fulfill the
believing of practitioners as well as FORCED to fulfill their fears.
I'm pleased to say that we don't receive all our fears just as we don't
receive all that we "believe for" no matter how much willpower we put into
our believing.
Miraculous healings?
Absolutely!
I'm confident they happen. I'm confident I've been around for them happening.
They didn't happen because vpw's magical formulae were applied.
People trusted God and prayed.
Then GOD'S Will came to pass, not the believer's will.
His correspondence course doctorate degree had a major (well you can't really call it a "major" - more of an "emphasis") on homiletics. That's what his thesis was on. So it's really not that surprising that his main skill set was being a huckster.
The scapegoating follows from the inability to recognize the errors you've committed.
I didn't see this as directly in TWI as I did among the leaders of CES after the Momentus debacle. They COULDN'T allow themselves to recognize the true source of the damage they caused, so they rationalized every kind of misconstruction possible to blame the victims rather than their involvement with Momentus.
I know this must have happened big-time in TWI, but I wasn't close enough to the big shots to see it there.
The point about the scapegoat is that all the sins were notionally put on its head - but then it was released. It was cast out, but it wasn't vilified, stoned, publicly or ritually slaughtered or in any other way killed. It was released and left to find its own life in the desert, where it either thrived or died. Being a goat, it probably thrived until some wild animal, lion or whatever, decided the goat was breakfast. The scapegoat was symbolic that way.
In contrast, you'll note that most of those who opposed or were blamed by VPW and his henchmen were not only cast out but prior to that were publicly humiliated, with their own "sins" and imaginary sins of everyone and for everything heaped upon them. Such human victims were humiliated, ritually slaughtered in front of the whole congregation or at least in front of the whole Way Corps, and then cast out. They were also told (and believed) that the roaring lion was out there looking for them in particular, so they lived in fear (not just watchfulness) constantly. Nobody was released without being terrorised beforehand.
So not quite scapegoats, not in the Biblical sense.
So not quite scapegoats, not in the Biblical sense.
You are right about that, Twinky! The Biblical scapegoat was something God provided so His people would have a legitimate way to deal with their guilt. TWI scapegoating (and political) are lies people use to avoid their own responsibility.
In contrast, you'll note that most of those who opposed or were blamed by VPW and his henchmen were not only cast out but prior to that were publicly humiliated, with their own "sins" and imaginary sins of everyone and for everything heaped upon them. Such human victims were humiliated, ritually slaughtered in front of the whole congregation or at least in front of the whole Way Corps, and then cast out. They were also told (and believed) that the roaring lion was out there looking for them in particular, so they lived in fear (not just watchfulness) constantly. Nobody was released without being terrorised beforehand.
So not quite scapegoats, not in the Biblical sense.
You are right about that, Twinky! The Biblical scapegoat was something God provided so His people would have a legitimate way to deal with their guilt. TWI scapegoating (and political) are lies people use to avoid their own responsibility.
Lies, more lies and damnable lies.......to conceal the evil and lusts of authoritative leaders. Yes, good people....many, of which, were way corps and/or staff.....were publically emasculated during corps night meetings or staff meetings to: 1)destroy the strength, character and reputation of person(s), 2)intimidate others from ever standing up or speaking out against other mogs or leaders, and 3)strike fear in followers to avoid like the plague of ever been in the presence of "possesso" every again.
Those closed-door character assassinations were truly mind-numbing to witness. Most often, the corps person had just been ousted and was not in the room. No rebuttal. No hearing "the other side of the story." No biblical discernment by "elders at the gate" or some-such church review board. Just label the guy/girl "possessed" and every follower was to fall in line and EX-COMMUNICATE that person.
Some lives were viciously altered within hours. Many marriages were destroyed. Suicide found its way to a few souls. All in the name of concealment. Just seems to me, now, that this level of venom was necessary to thwart any scrutiny or questioning of said mog.
When I think of "scapegoating" in the general sense, I tend to think of blame-shifting or shirking of responsibility that might otherwise expose twi-doctrine....ie wierwille/martindale using accusatory innuendo and/or verbal attacks on the corps' believing to not stop the rain.
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waysider
And in summary:
He was a selfish old fart who didn't give a damn about anyone but himself.
Dat's Riiiight!
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skyrider
"I wish I were the man I know to be."
I wish......is "wish" in the category of BELIEVING?
I were......past tense. Too late.
the man.....yeah, da man. Dats riiight.
I know......get to the place where you know that you know.
to be.......to be a man of integrity or a man of lust?
If wishing were horses, beggars would ride.
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Rejoice
he was the ultimate FRAUD for our day and time...
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Twinky
Subjunctive, actually. (Bold phrases in what follows are mine.)
In this case - guess what! - VPW appears for once actually to have been correct grammatically. Which is pretty much a first for him. PFAL is littered with his misunderstandings of English grammar.
Infuriated me during the class. Infuriates me to hear VPW-worshippers trot out the same errors now.
(Don't ask me anything about the other irrealis moods mentioned. Heck!)
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skyrider
Yeah....I was going to edit it, but what the heck.
It was "past tense" because wierwille was on his deathbed and there was no way
he could go back and change what happened. He WAS the man he chose to be!!
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Twinky
Ain't that the truth!!
He knew much better. He knew what was Godly behavior and what wasn't He knew what was appropriate and what definitely wasn't. And where he didn't know - he wasn't circumspect, and erred on the side of caution. No, he just erred ... and erred ... and erred. A deliberate slap on the face of God.
And God will reward him appropriately :eusa_clap:/> :mad2:/>
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skyrider
And....his declaration as certain death approached:
"He wished he wasn't the man he chose to be."
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waysider
I have my doubts that even that sentiment was genuine.
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WordWolf
vpw was a study in hypocrisy mixed with laziness.
When he began, he considered jobs which allowed him to draw attention and/or
lots of money- business (money), show business/music (attention, money)
and preaching (attention).
Since business required a lot more work, and didn't provide the audience,
and music was slow to provide a living, especially without long hours
(it's said an "overnight success" in music requires 7 years of work first),
preaching was a more obvious choice. He could get an audience and a
guaranteed living, and not face the risks of never making it big.
He was even able to get a Masters from a respectable school in "preaching".
(Most people there went to study far more demanding majors, but he was
avoiding the hard work.)
vpw plagiarized and lied his way to "success", committing crimes and moral
wrongs for decades. He publicly preached morals, often, and privately preached
and practiced sin and license to sin (ever hear of another preacher saying
God Almighty was all right with ORGIES?).
As his final months and weeks approached, he was concerned about his HEALTH.
Privately, he spoke of the credibility of the speaker for God with physical
infirmities, because he realized there was a disconnect between his
Word-Faith "God will heal anyone, anytime if they believe" doctrine,
his public persona as Super-Believer, and the reality that his body was
breaking down. (Decades of alcohol and tobacco abuse seem to have contributed
a LOT to that and may have been the direct causes of him getting cancer-
I certainly think the evidence is clear on that.)
In his final hours, he was heard to have been thinking about his inability to
get delivered physically despite his Super-Believing. He was well aware of
his decades of lying, sinning, deceit, abuse of God's people and so on.
He claimed he was searching earnestly and was UNABLE to find where he had
displeased God, where he'd disobeyed God, to the degree he couldn't get the
magical healing he claimed God would give.
The one person vpw would never blame for vpw's faults and problems was vpw.
Facing the consequences of his own decisions never seemed to occur to him,
not even on his deathbed.
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skyrider
And.....baked with narcissism.
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waysider
....seasoned with a unique blend of "aw shucks" spices.
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WordWolf
I'm suspicious that it was unique.
Some posters said his style sounded like other people who'd been on television,
and even resembled Leonard's Canadian mannerisms.
So, the "aw shucks" was probably plagiarized,
and not a unique blend but more something off-the-shelf
rather than made-from-scratch.
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Ham
"nyuk, nyuk, nyuk" and "wub wub wub wub wub wub" may have been more appropriate..
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skyrider
.....presented on a platter of plagiarism
.....and served with deception.
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Steve Lortz
"The way of a fool is right in his own eyes..." Proverbs 12:15a
"All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes..." Proverbs 16:2a
"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes..." Proverbs 21:2a
If you think, over and over again, that something is okay, your heart will come to believe that it IS okay.
That's why Proverbs 4:23 says to keep our hearts with all diligence, because out of them are the farthermost limits to the boundaries of our lives.
That's why Jeremiah 17:9 says the heart is deceitful above all things. If you tell your heart over and over that it's okay for YOU to bend the rules, to shirk your duty, to be disobedient, to plagiarize others and pretend YOU are an apostle, to require people to send YOU their tithes and offerings for your opulence, to show a grandfatherly face on the main stage at the ROA, and then melt innocent peoples'faces behind the scenes... your heart will tell you that those things are perfectly okay!
If you've told your heart over and over again that God's grace makes you clean, even as you drug and rape your followers, then your heart will reassure you that what you are doing is perfectly clean.
Werewilles' attitude was one of arrogance, he knew better than God did. I have neither seen nor heard of any evidence that he became humble before his death. His attitude of heart was the reason he could not fathom anything he had done wrong. In his own opinion, he HADN'T done anything wrong!
Love,
Steve
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krys
This is from WordWolf's post #10 above: The bold is mine for emphasis
[snip]
God's healing is real. I've seen some miraculous healings, I've received it a time or two and I've ministered it a time or two...and many of you have done likewise.
It's too bad that the man who taught about it wasn't convinced. WordWolf didn't make a mistake in writing....vp considered God's healing as "magic". I've never known God to do any magic!
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WordWolf
This was worth repeating. It sums up vpw's attitude problems nicely.
vpw only thought of vpw as human, and other people didn't count,
so they only mattered in relation to what he could get from them.
So, there was nothing wrong with telling them all the things from
Scripture while violating all the things from Scripture in what he
did to them....
when he wasn't telling them the opposite of Scripture because
that suited him better.
He also knew to keep that last part a secret and continue to tell
MOST people Scripture and teach a handful to lie, cheat and
exploit instead- because he KNEW he was teaching 2 different,
contradictory things and thought that was ok as long as he got
what he wanted- even though Scripture said the opposite.
He had given his heart exactly what it needed to hear to tell him
what he was doing wasn't wrong-
then he went to his grave unable to find where he'd gone wrong.
The supposed "man of God for our day and time",
"THE Teacher" who taught the Bible
"like it hadn't been known since the First Century"
spent more than a decade deceiving, plagiarizing,
drugging and raping,
and at the end, looked back and said
"What could I have done that displeased God Almighty?
I can't find anything."
He deceived his heart, his heart deceived him back.
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WordWolf
The purported magician (practitioner of magic) attempts to change reality
to conform to his wishes and will. He believes he can change reality to
match what he wants by performing something or other.
vpw's "Word of Faith" doctrinal system was/is MAGICAL.
If one BELIEVES, then one WILL receive no matter if one's belief is faulty.
Think it works?
Any Christian would appreciate being rich.
How many practitioners of vpw's magical "believing equals receiving" doctrine
have hit the Lottery? There's big, multistate Powerball and similar jackpots
every week. By now, that could have meant tens of thousands (at least) of
jackpots for thousands of people who CLAIM it should work.
vpw's system reduced God to a Divine Genie who was FORCED to fulfill the
believing of practitioners as well as FORCED to fulfill their fears.
I'm pleased to say that we don't receive all our fears just as we don't
receive all that we "believe for" no matter how much willpower we put into
our believing.
Miraculous healings?
Absolutely!
I'm confident they happen. I'm confident I've been around for them happening.
They didn't happen because vpw's magical formulae were applied.
People trusted God and prayed.
Then GOD'S Will came to pass, not the believer's will.
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GeorgeStGeorge
[Deleted, since Twinky already hit the grammar point. I suspect that Wierwille actually used grammar correctly because he was quoting someone else.]
George
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chockfull
His correspondence course doctorate degree had a major (well you can't really call it a "major" - more of an "emphasis") on homiletics. That's what his thesis was on. So it's really not that surprising that his main skill set was being a huckster.
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Steve Lortz
The scapegoating follows from the inability to recognize the errors you've committed.
I didn't see this as directly in TWI as I did among the leaders of CES after the Momentus debacle. They COULDN'T allow themselves to recognize the true source of the damage they caused, so they rationalized every kind of misconstruction possible to blame the victims rather than their involvement with Momentus.
I know this must have happened big-time in TWI, but I wasn't close enough to the big shots to see it there.
Love,
Steve
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Twinky
The point about the scapegoat is that all the sins were notionally put on its head - but then it was released. It was cast out, but it wasn't vilified, stoned, publicly or ritually slaughtered or in any other way killed. It was released and left to find its own life in the desert, where it either thrived or died. Being a goat, it probably thrived until some wild animal, lion or whatever, decided the goat was breakfast. The scapegoat was symbolic that way.
In contrast, you'll note that most of those who opposed or were blamed by VPW and his henchmen were not only cast out but prior to that were publicly humiliated, with their own "sins" and imaginary sins of everyone and for everything heaped upon them. Such human victims were humiliated, ritually slaughtered in front of the whole congregation or at least in front of the whole Way Corps, and then cast out. They were also told (and believed) that the roaring lion was out there looking for them in particular, so they lived in fear (not just watchfulness) constantly. Nobody was released without being terrorised beforehand.
So not quite scapegoats, not in the Biblical sense.
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Steve Lortz
You are right about that, Twinky! The Biblical scapegoat was something God provided so His people would have a legitimate way to deal with their guilt. TWI scapegoating (and political) are lies people use to avoid their own responsibility.
Love,
Steve
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skyrider
Lies, more lies and damnable lies.......to conceal the evil and lusts of authoritative leaders. Yes, good people....many, of which, were way corps and/or staff.....were publically emasculated during corps night meetings or staff meetings to: 1)destroy the strength, character and reputation of person(s), 2)intimidate others from ever standing up or speaking out against other mogs or leaders, and 3)strike fear in followers to avoid like the plague of ever been in the presence of "possesso" every again.
Those closed-door character assassinations were truly mind-numbing to witness. Most often, the corps person had just been ousted and was not in the room. No rebuttal. No hearing "the other side of the story." No biblical discernment by "elders at the gate" or some-such church review board. Just label the guy/girl "possessed" and every follower was to fall in line and EX-COMMUNICATE that person.
Some lives were viciously altered within hours. Many marriages were destroyed. Suicide found its way to a few souls. All in the name of concealment. Just seems to me, now, that this level of venom was necessary to thwart any scrutiny or questioning of said mog.
When I think of "scapegoating" in the general sense, I tend to think of blame-shifting or shirking of responsibility that might otherwise expose twi-doctrine....ie wierwille/martindale using accusatory innuendo and/or verbal attacks on the corps' believing to not stop the rain.
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