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Rocky

Was Wierwille a narcissist?

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Of course, many of us know the answer to that question already.

I saw a post this evening on Facebook that inspired me to think about the question.

cddb8ad9e8db302150af432f06204723.jpg

Were you ever subject to Wierwille's angry rants? Or Martindale's?

If you're curious, here's an interesting resource that provides a list of 10 questions to reflect back on your relationships with those "Mogs."

For our younger greasespotters, perhaps you might have some insight on whether the organization (TWI) currently demonstrates a narcissistic personality.

A couple of days ago, I found that the Power for Abundant Living book is for sale (from third-party vendors) on amazon.com.

I found some of the reviews and comments on those reviews quite revealing.

This is what I saw on Facebook that reminded me of Wierwille.

Narcissists

hurt people,

they carry shame,

low self-esteem,

endured neglect,

or deprivation,

as a child,

they create a container

to keep the shame in,

and repress it,

they aren't aware

how damaged they are,

when held accountable,

they deny and blame,

subconsciously

they feel unworthy,

they can't bear to think

there is something

wrong with them,

so they project,

make it your fault,

so they won't feel,

the pain of their own

self-judgement...

- Marg

- inspired by Ross Rosenberg

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Back in the day, we probably would have just said he was a "sicko". Assuming, of course, we had known what we know today.

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Of course, many of us know the answer to that question already.

I saw a post this evening on Facebook that inspired me to think about the question.

cddb8ad9e8db302150af432f06204723.jpg

Were you ever subject to Wierwille's angry rants? Or Martindale's?

If you're curious, here's an interesting resource that provides a list of 10 questions to reflect back on your relationships with those "Mogs."

For our younger greasespotters, perhaps you might have some insight on whether the organization (TWI) currently demonstrates a narcissistic personality.

A couple of days ago, I found that the Power for Abundant Living book is for sale (from third-party vendors) on amazon.com.

I found some of the reviews and comments on those reviews quite revealing.

This is what I saw on Facebook that reminded me of Wierwille.

Narcissists

hurt people,

they carry shame,

low self-esteem,

endured neglect,

or deprivation,

as a child,

they create a container

to keep the shame in,

and repress it,

they aren't aware

how damaged they are,

when held accountable,

they deny and blame,

subconsciously

they feel unworthy,

they can't bear to think

there is something

wrong with them,

so they project,

make it your fault,

so they won't feel,

the pain of their own

self-judgement...

- Marg

- inspired by Ross Rosenberg

I could not agree more. As a person who had first-hand experience with VPW, this description fits like "a hand in a glove."

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Apparently, I forgot to include the link in the original post above... now I can't find it. sorry. :confused:/>

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Technically, in discussing vic's behavior with numerous Doctors and Psychiatric Nurse Practitioners, as well as old corpse folks now involved in the delivery of both acute and chronic mental healthcare delivery, the following appears to be the most clinically accurate. Sociopathic paranoid narcissism with schizoaffective disorder. Alcoholic, misogynistic, racist, neo-Nazi fascist, serial rapist and sexual predator, surrounding himself with classic enablers and/or adoring followers. His life and ministry were entirely pathological from high school until his death. There ya have it. Any comments, thoughts, or opinions?

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"DWBH, you mean kinda like what this guy describes? A malignant narcissist?"..........OK.......malignant is a good word......kinda like purulent.

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Wierwile was purulent? The very idea invites me to construct a joke about a sharp young man named Lance.The explosive punchline would bring piercing relief.

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Wierwile was purulent? The very idea invites me to construct a joke about a sharp young man named Lance.The explosive punchline would bring piercing relief.

and would Lance have a Pinterest account - and would he be stuck with the same user name forever....btw, i would not be interested in the photos he would post; and on a serious note - interesting to find out, one of the founders of Pinterest is Evan Sharp.

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Technically, in discussing vic's behavior with numerous Doctors and Psychiatric Nurse Practitioners, as well as old corpse folks now involved in the delivery of both acute and chronic mental healthcare delivery, the following appears to be the most clinically accurate. Sociopathic paranoid narcissism with schizoaffective disorder. Alcoholic, misogynistic, racist, neo-Nazi fascist, serial rapist and sexual predator, surrounding himself with classic enablers and/or adoring followers. His life and ministry were entirely pathological from high school until his death. There ya have it. Any comments, thoughts, or opinions?

Interesting. I notice the sociopath in how easy it is for them to lie. Paranoid schizo too - anyone who isn't 100% submissive and compliant - are ousted and bum rushed and shunned. That's an extreme reaction of someone who thinks people are out to get them. Not sure of the schizoaffective - that seems to also indicate a bipolar disorder mixed. Narcissist in the flasher activities as well as his thinking he was "healing" his sexual victims.

And 100% surrounded by enablers.

Your other adjectives I think accurately document known behavior.

He was certainly pathological.

How the hell God could work with that to get me interested in the Bible and all the positive aspects of what I got out of TWI is beyond miraculous. I guess I describe it to some as being led into and out of Egypt in my life story.

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Not sure of the schizoaffective - that seems to also indicate a bipolar disorder mixed.

Schizoaffective disorder -- a condition in which a person experiences a combination of schizophrenia symptoms — such as hallucinations or delusions — and mood disorder symptoms, such as mania or depression.

------

Did he really believe God spoke audibly to him and showed him snow on the gas pumps?

If he didn't make that up, then it seems to fit the definition.

And there's no question, from observations made by people who spent time with him in the way corpse, that he had mood disorders, likely bipolar.

Edited by Rocky

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A post featuring blatantly political commentary and all posts that followed it (because they referred back to it) have been removed.

It was decided some time ago that we would no longer host political discussions on GSC because passions ran so high that it became nearly impossible for the moderators to keep peace. It was not done to punish conservatives or liberals. It was done because political discussions bring out passions that we simply could not handle, and that was when we had oodles of moderators. Today we have one to three mods actively monitoring the forums on any given day. We all have jobs and we're unanimous in our lack of desire to make sure political discussions abide by the rules.

This applies to everyone and every political persuasion. We. Don't. Do. Politics. Here.

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"A post featuring blatantly political commentary and all posts that followed it (because they referred back to it) have been removed.

It was decided some time ago that we would no longer host political discussions on GSC because passions ran so high that it became nearly impossible for the moderators to keep peace. It was not done to punish conservatives or liberals. It was done because political discussions bring out passions that we simply could not handle, and that was when we had oodles of moderators. Today we have one to three mods actively monitoring the forums on any given day. We all have jobs and we're unanimous in our lack of desire to make sure political discussions abide by the rules.

This applies to everyone and every political persuasion. We. Don't. Do. Politics. Here."

Thank you very much for that, Modcat5. Best way to lose any community is to inject the intolerance of partisan politics into any conversation or relationship. Guaranteed instant poison.

I, for one, very much appreciate that rule and think it to be quite wise.

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Ok, a non-political link for an introduction to Narcissistic Personality Disorder:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

I think vpw showed plenty of signs of psychopathy.

The most telling, to me, is that he could easily chat with someone,

turn, scream at someone else, then turn back to the first person

and resume a calm chat without the slightest bump. Neither of the

people counted as human beings to him, as equals, so he felt nothing

to verbally abuse someone, and could do it while having tea or

chatting.

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Ok, a non-political link for an introduction to Narcissistic Personality Disorder:

https://en.wikipedia...nality_disorder

https://en.wikipedia...iki/Psychopathy

I think vpw showed plenty of signs of psychopathy.

The most telling, to me, is that he could easily chat with someone,

turn, scream at someone else, then turn back to the first person

and resume a calm chat without the slightest bump. Neither of the

people counted as human beings to him, as equals, so he felt nothing

to verbally abuse someone, and could do it while having tea or

chatting.

Good links. What's even more important is that wikipedia generally is very well footnoted/sourced. And when it's not, it usually says so.

Anyway, I've found Ross Rosenberg's videos and writings (online, I haven't read any of his books) to poignantly hit the nail on the head

regarding Wierwille and twi.

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I have better things to do, gang.

No politics.

No rebutting deleted posts about politics.

No whining about the no politics rule.

No. Damn. Politics.

This is not up for discussion or debate.

If you want to cite someone's expertise but you can't do it without political imagery, don't. It's getting deleted. If you want to rebut someone's opinion based on research or credentials, fine. Based on his political conclusions or biases? Don't. Just don't.

Complaints can be directed to the moderators through private messages.

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. . .

The most telling, to me, is that he could easily chat with someone,

turn, scream at someone else, then turn back to the first person

and resume a calm chat without the slightest bump. Neither of the

people counted as human beings to him, as equals, so he felt nothing

to verbally abuse someone, and could do it while having tea or

chatting.

I was always taught this what mature individuals do. "instantly changing gears" was a mark of growth and discipline.

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I was always taught this what mature individuals do. "instantly changing gears" was a mark of growth and discipline.

Amazing, isn't it? It was not so much a lesson in how to behave as it was a smokescreen for unacceptable behavior.

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Amazing, isn't it? It was not so much a lesson in how to behave as it was a smokescreen for unacceptable behavior.

Maybe is used to be. VPW has been gone forever. That the smokescreen morphs into its own life is amazing in a way.

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Maybe is used to be. VPW has been gone forever. That the smokescreen morphs into its own life is amazing in a way.

Very human, for a person or a group/subculture to define observable phenomena (i.e. behavior) in ways that justify and rationalize them.

I have found tremendous insight in Mistakes were made (but not by me).

"Social psychologists Tavris and Aronson, each of whom has published other works, here tackle "the inner workings of self-justification," the mental gymnastics that allow us to bemoan the mote in our brother's eye while remaining blissfully unaware of the beam in our own. Their prose is lively, their research is admirable and their examples of our arrogant follies are entertaining and instructive."

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A separate issue was vpw's heavy drinking.

vpw drank. A LOT. ALL THE TIME.

When he visited places FOR THE WEEKEND, a local or localS

were tasked to supply his favorite booze. As in

"He can't go for a weekend without a drink, and he's not

paying for his own, so you supply it out-of-pocket."

That's why we all know what he drank (and smoked, since he

was a chronic smoker, also.)

Why does this matter for this thread?

It's known that some people with a psychological problem

or a psychiatric problem will "self-medicate" with

alcohol to "drown their sorrows."

So, did vpw have some problem he drank to alleviate?

I think it was the other possibility.

vpw seemed a nice guy when he was drunk, but could be mean,

especially when he was short on alcohol. I think the drinking

wasn't to alleviate an overt problem. Rather, I think the

drinking WAS the overt problem, and if he didn't give himself

alcoholism, and wasn't sloshed a lot of the time, the mood-swings

would have been a LOT less dramatic.

I think he still was a sociopath and would have yelled in between

chats and thought nothing of it, but I think the actual

mood-swings would have been a lot less common.

Yes, I think he was a stew of a FEW different problems, but they

aren't so many they can't be understood.

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I've posted before that I'd wondered the relationship between alcohol and the nature of The Way.

Most Wayfers, (The older generation) in my experience, rarely, if at all, drink.

Wayfers sit around in groups called the TWIG or HHF and reason out together complete nonsense. They don't need a substance to alter their minds to an abusive, sometimes violent, state. Words, The Word, is indeed powerful.

(and did LCM abuse alcohol?)

If the cause of The Way was alcoholism then a way to prevent groups like The Way from forming would be to focus on alcoholism. Catch the leader there. I tend to think that wouldn't work.

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The alcohol is an interesting point. Coupled with what DWBH said about AA providing a template for twigs, it leads me to another thought. Did Vic ever attend AA for his chronic drinking? That would be an interesting twist.

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The alcohol is an interesting point. Coupled with what DWBH said about AA providing a template for twigs, it leads me to another thought. Did Vic ever attend AA for his chronic drinking? That would be an interesting twist.

AFAIK,

AA is anonymous, thus the name "Alcoholics Anonymous."

However,

we have the example of a chronic alcoholic who died of cancer to the eye AND LIVER.

(Between the alcohol and chronic tobacco abuse, we have exposure of the liver to something

known to damage it, and something known to cause cancer.)

We have the example of someone who plagiarized everything he came across-

who seems to have plagiarized AA.

That's not an eyewitness account, but the circumstantial evidence is sufficient for most

people to connect the dots there-

except for the usual "wierwille was a giant among men and you all suck for pointing

out all his issues" crowd.

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The latest clinical literature is leaning toward a new understanding of what used to be called, "Personality Disorders" by Psychiatry and Clinical Psychology. Since our newest technologies with mapping the human genome, petscans, quantum physiology, biology, and electrochemistry, 3-D printing, etc., have yielded such major advancements in actual treatment medically (i.e. medication and medical mgt. of what used to be called "mood disorders" and "personality disorders"), that a reworking in clinical approach and treatment of these once-called personality disorders is quickly advancing along the lines of a "spectrum" of symptoms and behaviors, like the new understanding of The Autism Spectrum. Autism is not simply "one illness". It has a range of behavioral and psychological symptomatology from completely debilitating, i.e. necessitating 24 hr care or observation, to Highly Functioning Assberger's Syndrome at the least debilitating end of the Autism Spectrum, with as many "in-betweens" as there are patients.

Similarly, the most current understanding of the "personality disorders" is that they also are on a "spectrum" of behavioral and psychological symptomatology. For example, what used to be called "manic depression" was classified as a "personality disorder". These illnesses were grouped as personality disorders, primarily because they were not medically manageable, I.e. Treatable with medications and psychotherapy. There was not enough repeatable data to formulate medications as we have today for medical management of these illnesses. But, as previously mentioned, today's technology and science offers such an astonishingly wide range of new data and technological advancement, that the re-thinking on many disease processes, both somatic and psychiatric, are broadening geometrically.

What is my point? Today, when a definite diagnosis of one or more "personality disorders" is made, it is not limited to just one illness and its concommitant symptomatology. Rather, "diagnosing only one or two personality disorders", when one is present it potentiates the ENTIRE SPECTRUM of "personality disorders" and all the accompanying behavioral and psychiatric symptomatology of ALL of them.....hence the entire spectrum may present itself at any time. The current treatment for personality disorders now is able to categorize an entire range of behavioral and cognitive symptoms defining each individual patient according to actual presentation through a range ("spectrum") of behaviors rather than a limited few based upon the old method of diagnostics.

So, what this means is, that if a patient is diagnosed as "borderline", that patient will NOT ONLY present as a strictly borderline patient, but will manifest whichever behavioral or cognitive impairment is needed along the entire spectrum of the illnesses, not just one or two. Until the remaining "personality disorders" become medically manageable in conjunction with behavioral and/or cognitive therapy (usually a combination, requiring several sessions a week with these different disciplines. This makes beneficial treatment quite expensive and the various insurances rarely cover enough for more than a month of treatment, when a much longer time is usually necessary.

So, when dictor is diagnosed as a malignant paranoid narcissist, he had at his disposal all the pathological behaviors and cognition of any on the spectrum. Meaning therefore, that you will see the symptomatology of sociopathy, psychopathy, borderline, histrionic, passive aggressive, and paranoiac come and go throughout the patient's life. Again, there is both a nature and nurture component to each diagnosis, and neither can be ignored or overlooked. That's why understanding diagnoses like schizoaffective disorder for example, help to define and refine our understanding of medical and cognitive/behavioral therapy and treatment options. Hope that helps.

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