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A couple of questions about VPW

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6 hours ago, T-Bone said:

Great post, Skyrider - it got me thinking about a couple of things:

What was / were the reason or reasons for Peter J Wade split?

I wonder how many folks took note of the omission of JE Stiles from the 7th edition of RTHST. By “took note” I mean to the point they thought something was amiss.

 

Yeah, T-Bone............ain't it amazing how many things we think about now......rather than when we were 18, 19 and 20 years old.   :biglaugh:

Why did Wade exit twi?  I can only surmise and respond with this:  I find it interesting what attributes and qualities Peter Wade emphasized in his tribute to E.W. Kenyon.  What stands out (to me) is the following:

  1. Every preacher and teacher has his mentors.
  2. E.W. Kenyon was a man of God who lived a devoted life to God above reproach.
  3. Kenyon boldly heralded the biblical truth of sanctification by the finished work of Jesus Christ alone.

Could it be that Wade saw and detested wierwille's plagiarism, arrogance and manner of life?  If Wade was the right-hand man directly connected to publishing/editing wierwille's works (for example.....the booklet, You are righteous now).......and saw blatant plagiarism.....it could sever their relationship.  An upright man eschews that which is unholy or malicious.  When Wade attributes Kenyon as "a man of God who lived a devoted life to God above reproach"......did he see aspects of wierwille's life that were carnal, opportunistic, predatory and/or NOT above reproach?

Also, Peter Wade was NOT a corps grad.  He did not go thru the indoctrination program.  Obviously, he was his own man and held to boundaries and convictions.  He was involved at the "ground floor".......before the unbridled adulation of wierwille gained a head of steam.  And perhaps, he had a "front row seat" to wierwille's power-grabbing Heefner's and Doop's ministries (1972) and monies.....and saw the writing on the wall of what was in store.

Probably......a combination of lots of things.

Maybe someone will come forth with more information, but right now..... that, T-Bone...........is what I think.

 

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13 minutes ago, skyrider said:

 

Maybe someone will come forth with more information, but right now..... that, T-Bone...........is what I think.

 

Wouldn't that be wonderful. Yet, 45+ years hence, it's not likely. There's so much I know now that I'd love to ask my parents about from the 50s, 60s, 70s... but my parents have both passed as have my two younger siblings. Sigh.

But we do have this record (GSC and several first hand accounts of things) from which we can draw reasonable inferences.

And now that we're in our 60s and older, we can and must make those inferences. To that end, we tell our stories. 

Stories being the most human things we can pass along to our progeny.

Thanks for yours my GSC friends. 

 

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12 hours ago, skyrider said:

 

Yeah, T-Bone............ain't it amazing how many things we think about now......rather than when we were 18, 19 and 20 years old.   :biglaugh:

Why did Wade exit twi?  I can only surmise and respond with this:  I find it interesting what attributes and qualities Peter Wade emphasized in his tribute to E.W. Kenyon.  What stands out (to me) is the following:

  1. Every preacher and teacher has his mentors.
  2. E.W. Kenyon was a man of God who lived a devoted life to God above reproach.
  3. Kenyon boldly heralded the biblical truth of sanctification by the finished work of Jesus Christ alone.

Could it be that Wade saw and detested wierwille's plagiarism, arrogance and manner of life?  If Wade was the right-hand man directly connected to publishing/editing wierwille's works (for example.....the booklet, You are righteous now).......and saw blatant plagiarism.....it could sever their relationship.  An upright man eschews that which is unholy or malicious.  When Wade attributes Kenyon as "a man of God who lived a devoted life to God above reproach"......did he see aspects of wierwille's life that were carnal, opportunistic, predatory and/or NOT above reproach?

Also, Peter Wade was NOT a corps grad.  He did not go thru the indoctrination program.  Obviously, he was his own man and held to boundaries and convictions.  He was involved at the "ground floor".......before the unbridled adulation of wierwille gained a head of steam.  And perhaps, he had a "front row seat" to wierwille's power-grabbing Heefner's and Doop's ministries (1972) and monies.....and saw the writing on the wall of what was in store.

Probably......a combination of lots of things.

Maybe someone will come forth with more information, but right now..... that, T-Bone...........is what I think.

 

 

12 hours ago, Rocky said:

Wouldn't that be wonderful. Yet, 45+ years hence, it's not likely. There's so much I know now that I'd love to ask my parents about from the 50s, 60s, 70s... but my parents have both passed as have my two younger siblings. Sigh.

But we do have this record (GSC and several first hand accounts of things) from which we can draw reasonable inferences.

And now that we're in our 60s and older, we can and must make those inferences. To that end, we tell our stories. 

Stories being the most human things we can pass along to our progeny.

Thanks for yours my GSC friends. 

 

Skyrider and Rocky, thanks for your thoughtful replies.

Skyrider, I think you have something there - about Peter J Wade’s tribute to Kenyon may very well reveal the sterling quality of Wade’s character…and the fact that he wasn’t indoctrinated by the way corps program was probably of paramount importance in keeping those blinders off his eyes.

Rocky, I agree with you on the importance of Grease Spot and passing on our stories…

...when I first started having my doubts and questions about wierwille & TWI, all I had to go on for making inferences was what I found out through my own fledgling research (of the Bible, systematic theology, biblical languages – and using Bible versions and books of my own choosing I might add! Not books endorsed by TWI) I began to see  just how academically incompetent, dishonest and manipulative  wierwille was…but these were merely little red flags compared to his gross criminal behavior I learned about on Grease Spot - some of what I read resonated with me in light of what he taught in The Christian Family & Sex class and even in just remembering how he behaved around the corps - whether he was teaching or just hanging out. He was a dirty old man who was drunk and  smoking like a chimney most of the time.

Those were major red flags in my book…when those damn blinders from my way corps indoctrination finally fell off I then understood how the unbridled adulation for wierwille overshadowed many red flags. Because in the shadows – you can’t tell the color of the flag – so you tend to write it off as it’s no big deal – after all “that’s just going by your five senses”…or “don’t be so petty – he is  the man of God for our day and time and hour”…”the love of God thinketh no evil."...

 

yes - little thoughts like those were part of the "apparatus " of the blinders - that's one of the purposes of indoctrination - with the blinders on you can only see what's in front of you - which is what wierwille and other TWI leadership directed your attention to. Yeah, you don't want to look at anything else cuz that's worldly stuff and wouldn't be very spiritual, right?  Just trust me on this one.

 

 :CUSSING: no wait - that was a trick question!!!!     "we don't need no stinkin' blinders!"   ever wonder why horses wear blinders  ? Blinders keep the horse focused on the most important task - winning the race by going in the right direction - straight ahead - eliminates distractions...the blinders of indoctrination keep followers focused on the most important tasks - like heaping excessive admiration and praise on wierwille and looking to him   or "since he daid" looking to current TWI leadership for direction.

 

another thing about analyzing wierwille and TWI - you'll find more of a target-rich-environment (red flag-wise) if you look more into the policies, procedures, and social dynamics than into any particular doctrine.

 

so  - three cheers for all the brave and courageous folks who have shared their stories on Grease Spot - - hip hip hooray times 3!  :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap:

Edited by T-Bone
typos, formatting and beau-coup of realizations

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22 hours ago, skyrider said:

Why did Wade exit twi?

Hey, you could ask him:

https://www.peterwade.com/wades/?v=79cba1185463

You'll see a nod to TWI in his bio.

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5 hours ago, Twinky said:

Hey, you could ask him:

https://www.peterwade.com/wades/?v=79cba1185463

You'll see a nod to TWI in his bio.

Interesting website, including the page "About the Wades." 

He doesn't get into why he parted ways, which fits with what he calls his ministry these days, Positive Word Ministries Inc.

Wade does, however, use TWI jargon to some degree.

"In 1965 Peter Wade went to the United States to attend a three-month Summer School at The Way Biblical Research Center, which was then a non-denominational teaching organization. “His abilities, depth of perception, and conviction were immediately noticeable. Upon his return to Australia and the pastoring of a pioneering work at Taperoo, South Australia, he put into practice all the principles he had been taught and mightily convinced the believers of the fullness of Christ’s work and the accuracy of God’s Word.”"

He's also on YouTube
 

 

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5 hours ago, Rocky said:

Interesting website, including the page "About the Wades." 

He doesn't get into why he parted ways, which fits with what he calls his ministry these days, Positive Word Ministries Inc.

Wade does, however, use TWI jargon to some degree.

"In 1965 Peter Wade went to the United States to attend a three-month Summer School at The Way Biblical Research Center, which was then a non-denominational teaching organization. “His abilities, depth of perception, and conviction were immediately noticeable. Upon his return to Australia and the pastoring of a pioneering work at Taperoo, South Australia, he put into practice all the principles he had been taught and mightily convinced the believers of the fullness of Christ’s work and the accuracy of God’s Word.”"

 

 

Thanks Rocky........the website connects the dots.

  • 1965.......Wade attends The Way's 3-month summer school
  • 1966.......June 1966 - wierwille sends Wade an invitation to help with twi's publications/outreach
  • 1967.......May 1967 - the Wades arrive in Ohio.  Peter became the editor of "The Way Magazine"
  • 1970.......May 1970 - the Wades returned to South Australia and still had affiliation with twi.
  • 1973.......Peter J. Wade decouples from twi-affiliation.  Independent ministry began in earnest.

So yeah......wierwille invites Wade to come to twi and become editor of magazine.  Wierwille does the teaching;  Wade does the publication. 

Hand-in hand........in 1967, Wade is the right-hand man.

October 1967........wierwille films skinny-tie pfal class.  Praises Wade and the work, "You are righteous now."

Early editions of audio/video pfal ..... mention Wade.  When Wade fades away, the later editions (1976...+) edit Wade from newer pfal classes.

That is why some of us heard about Peter J. Wade in the OLDER version of pfal......before he was scrubbed.

BOOM.......there you have it folks!  

THAT is how things go down the memory hole.   :spy:

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4 hours ago, waysider said:

Soooooo........It's another offshoot?

In an absolute sense, yes.   In a practical sense, there seem to be marked differences.  If I understand correctly (and I may not)....

1) Peter Wade had some education before vpw met him-  so vpw co-opted a trained Christian writer (something he probably always wanted to do, since he was plagiarizing dead ones down the years, and edited live ones for years, during which I SPECULATE he plagiarized them for his Sunday sermons)

2) Peter Wade wasn't a product of twi's programs-  he didn't go into the Way Corps, etc.

3)  Early on, when vpw did some stuff, Peter Wade left abruptly and voluntarily.     The offshoots tend to happen around FIRINGS  and people being kicked off grounds. 

 

Someone wondered why some posters didn't put all the pieces together and leave sooner.  Looks to me like Peter Wade did just that. 

 

(BTW, why didn't I leave sooner than I did?

I wasn't "in"  until vpw had died.  I was "out" about 3-4 years later, depending on how you count "in".   When it was time to leave, most of my state was leaving at the same time, for what I thought were the same reasons,  and good reasons.   So, we left together, more or less.   A few years after that, I sort-of drifted off.   Sometime after that I crossed paths with the GSC, and the rest is history, albeit minor history.)

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"Soooooo........It's another offshoot? "

 

5 hours ago, WordWolf said:

In an absolute sense, yes.   In a practical sense, there seem to be marked differences.  If I understand correctly (and I may not)....

1) Peter Wade had some education before vpw met him-  so vpw co-opted a trained Christian writer (something he probably always wanted to do, since he was plagiarizing dead ones down the years, and edited live ones for years, during which I SPECULATE he plagiarized them for his Sunday sermons)

2) Peter Wade wasn't a product of twi's programs-  he didn't go into the Way Corps, etc.

3)  Early on, when vpw did some stuff, Peter Wade left abruptly and voluntarily.     The offshoots tend to happen around FIRINGS  and people being kicked off grounds. 

........

 

In looking over Peter Wade's background and website......I would say that, NO.....it's not another offshoot.

Wade had been involved in other Christian training (like WW noted above) since 1957.......and attended The Way's summer camp in 1965 (when he was like a 25 or 26 year old).   And then, Wade came back to Ohio (with his family) to help wierwille with way publications from 1967-1970........but then, back to Australia.

Clearly, Wade was strong in his faith, goals and personal boundaries.  He did not go into the corps program.  Nor did he, it seems, allow wierwille to "set the hook" of joining wierwille's inner circle or yes-men club.  If I understand this background correctly........Wade would have been 30 or 31 years old in 1970 with wife, Vivian, at his side and two children.  Peter Wade wasn't some young buck looking to go corps and become a state/region coordinator.  Wade was his own man.

Yes, every young pastor has his teachers and mentors..........but I tend to think that Wade chose to go back to the original source.  Not wierwille.   Wierwille in his narcissism pawned other mens' work as his own. Yet, Wade in the tribute to Kenyon, makes is clear that he underscored the value of mentors and then, named a half dozen of those men from the 1870-1950 era. 

Obviously, when we hear one-liners like "the integrity of the word is always at stake"........who's to say that that one-liner is a wierwille-original?  More likely, it came from Kenyon or someone else.....like most everything that wierwille taught (plagiarized).  There is plenty of documentation to state that wierwille's organization was MORE of an offshoot than Wade's......ie the pfal class was stolen WHOLECLOTH from B.G. Leonard.

 

 

 

Edited by skyrider

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13 minutes ago, skyrider said:

"Soooooo........It's another offshoot? "

 

 

In looking over Peter Wade's background and website......I would say that, NO.....it's not another offshoot.

Wade had been involved in other Christian training since 1957.......and attended The Way's summer camp in 1965 (when he was like a 25 or 26 year old).   And further, Wade came back to the Ohio to help wierwille with way publications from 1967-1970........but then, back to Australia.

Clearly, Wade was strong in his faith, goals and personal boundaries.  He did not go into the corps program.  Nor did he, it seems, allow wierwille to "set the hook" of joining wierwille's inner circle or yes-men club.  If I understand this background correctly........Wade would have been 30 or 31 years old in 1970 with wife, Vivian, at his side and two children.  Peter Wade wasn't some young buck looking to go corps and become a state/region coordinator.  Wade was his own man.

Yes, every young pastor has his teachers and mentors..........but I tend to think that Wade chose to go back to the original source.  Not wierwille.   Wierwille in his narcissism pawned other mens' work as his own. Yet, Wade in the tribute to Kenyon, makes is clear that he underscored the value of mentors and then, named a half dozen of those men from the 1870-1950 era. 

Obviously, when we hear one-liners like "the integrity of the word is always at stake"........who's to say that that one-liner is a wierwille-original?  More likely, it came from Kenyon or someone else.....like most everything that wierwille taught (plagiarized).  There is plenty of documentation to state that wierwille's organization was MORE of an offshoot than Wade's......ie the pfal class was stolen WHOLECLOTH from B.G. Leonard.

 

 

 

"Wade would have been 30 or 31 years old..."

Not necessarily to split hairs, but I don't think Wade wrote the things on his website recently. My guess is that he may have been four or five years older in 1970... 50 years ago.

But yes, he clearly was his own man. So arguments can be made either way on the question of whether he's got another offshoot. I lean toward that Wade's ministry is not one.

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4 minutes ago, Rocky said:

"Wade would have been 30 or 31 years old..."

Not necessarily to split hairs, but I don't think Wade wrote the things on his website recently. My guess is that he may have been four or five years older in 1970... 50 years ago.

But yes, he clearly was his own man. So arguments can be made either way on the question of whether he's got another offshoot. I lean toward that Wade's ministry is not one.

 

You are probably right, Rocky.

In looking thru his website and comments section......I inferred that Wade was born in 1939 or 1940.

Maybe, I'm mistaken on that.

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Update:  Most likely, Wade was 4 or 5 years older

 

10 hours ago, skyrider said:

 

In looking over Peter Wade's background and website......I would say that, NO.....it's not another offshoot.

Wade had been involved in other Christian training (like WW noted above) since 1957.......and attended The Way's summer camp in 1965 (when he was like a 25 or 26 year old......30 or 31 years old).   And then, Wade came back to Ohio (with his family) to help wierwille with way publications from 1967-1970........but then, back to Australia.

Clearly, Wade was strong in his faith, goals and personal boundaries.  He did not go into the corps program.  Nor did he, it seems, allow wierwille to "set the hook" of joining wierwille's inner circle or yes-men club.  If I understand this background correctly........Wade would have been 30 or 31 years old.....35 or 36 years old in 1970 with wife, Vivian, at his side and two children.  Peter Wade wasn't some young buck looking to go corps and become a state/region coordinator.  Wade was his own man.

Yes, every young pastor has his teachers and mentors..........but I tend to think that Wade chose to go back to the original source.  Not wierwille.   Wierwille in his narcissism pawned other mens' work as his own. Yet, Wade in the tribute to Kenyon, makes is clear that he underscored the value of mentors and then, named a half dozen of those men from the 1870-1950 era. 

 

 

Thus.......in May 1970 - Peter and Vivien Wade (and two children) returned to South Australia and still had some contact and affiliation with twi.  At this stage of life, Wade was looking forward and twi was in his rear-view mirror.

 

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Clearly, Wade was strong in his faith, goals and personal boundaries.  He did not go into the corps program.  Nor did he, it seems, allow wierwille to "set the hook" of joining wierwille's inner circle or yes-men club.  If I understand this background correctly........Wade would have been 30 or 31 years old.....35 or 36 years old in 1970 with wife, Vivian, at his side and two children.  Peter Wade wasn't some young buck looking to go corps and become a state/region coordinator.  Wade was his own man.

 

The above paragraph pretty much nails why Peter Wade very quietly and peacefully left.
He must have seen too much of "monkeying around by VW and being a man of godly principles
he did the right thing and left from a con artist who was all show- VW was exactly the opposite 
of what he potrayed in the pfal class. I don't know how someone can be such a shame faced liarr.
I remember VW mentioning Peter Wade during the class and also also in writing in one of the books
and it surprised me how come Peter Wade wasnt one of the generals in TW like how LCM and the other driver goat
who licked VW's boots were being put in front.
I thought maybe Peter Wade was instrumental asa one time help in the TW ministry and didnt think much about it.

Unlike many of us trapped ones who were onfire conquering the world(this is how VW gets people fired up
giving his students that they are going to be the movers and shakers in the world
and then indoctrinate them through the pfal, intermediate and advanced class.
and for the more ambitious the way corp, PW made the right move right from the start- He saw the religious cr__p
and wasnt sucked in like many of us who depended on some goon called VW to "teach" us how to rightly dvide
the word of God and do mighty exploits.

The one thing that PW should have done when he was out of VW's range should have been to be a whistle blower
and prayed to  God how he can disrupt the false ministry of VW. We read in the New Testament- how Jesus Christ and
Paul when he was converted confronted the false teachers of the day speaking the truth.
It's one thing to come out from the lions den to save your skin and remain pure but it's another thing to inform
the world about a developing false teacher and  cult that is going to trap thousands and thousands of young people and 
and cause huge physcologial and emtional scars in their lives.


PW would have been in a perfect position to be a whilstle blower because he wasnt part of the ruling hierachy and
he wasnt jostling for power. I wonder if he tried to-
If PW ganged up with the people like Bullinger or Kenyon and took VW to court for plagiarising and 
Do you think VW would have a grand success in rolling the PFAL indoctrination wagon into town?



 

 

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A whistleblower is person who informs on a person or organization engaged in an illicit activity. Since we really don’t have any details of the split or of what Peter W knew or didn’t know at the time – I am very hesitant to lay any “should-have-dones” on him.

Back in the early days, having Bullinger’s and Kenyon’s books around the bookstore – it may have given the appearance wierwille had nothing to hide...keep in mind the type of folks in his sphere of influence might not have thought it was even such a big deal like we would think today - it's a matter of perception. And really, how many scholarly or academic-type folks did he attract anyway.

vpw might have been " hiding the truth in plain sight" (which is a trick on one's perception) – sort of like saying “why would I have all these other authors' books on display if I was trying to hide that I plagiarized from them?”...vpw tells a story of Doc Higgins (i think) - who handed him a Bullinger book and said "Bullinger writes like you teach" or something like that - again there's the idea of putting vpw in the same league as Bullinger. " yeah,  just fitting the pieces together in the build-an accurate-word-of-god-puzzle."

...and for that matter, as Skyrider mentioned that it wasn't until the later edition of RTHST that vpw had omitted the reference to Stiles in the preface - was that an ever fomenting guilty conscience trying to do a better job of covering his plagiarism tracks? I don't know - just thinking out loud here...In thinking about that “hiding in plain sight” trick – something he said in “The Way Living in Love” comes to mind – basically vpw said something like he never taught anything new – he just pieced together what others  have taught so that it was accurate. Odd though - he doesn't specifically mention any names. Some die-hard wierwille fans will argue that is vpw giving those he plagiarized from the proper credit....yeah right - shame on you  :realmad:

....probably some of that "all truth is God's truth" mentality was around back then too - which softens plagiarism / the boundaries of intellectual property to "we're all really just teaching from the same book anyway - God's Word"

There was no internet back then with websites like Grease Spot, TransChat or Waydale. Could TWI followers or former followers have contacted Peter W in Australia at some point about things going awry? It’s possible. But I haven’t heard of any – maybe others have…I think by the time TWI was in full-throttle cult mode Peter W was long gone and too far away to be concerned about it all.

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21 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

There was no internet back then

This made me chuckle.The first 2 years I was in FellowLaborers, we didn't even have telephones or TVs. The only access to a telephone was a public pay phone at the truck stop down the road and the cost of a long distance call was outrageously prohibitive. My third year, I was in a house that had a TV, but they kept us so busy there was little time to actually watch it.

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A whistleblower is person who informs on a person or organization engaged in an illicit activity. Since we really don’t have any details of the split or of what Peter W knew or didn’t know at the time – I am very hesitant to lay any “should-have-dones” on him.

Back in the early days, having Bullinger’s and Kenyon’s books around the bookstore – it may have given the appearance wierwille had nothing to hide...keep in mind the type of folks in his sphere of influence might not have thought it was even such a big deal like we would think today - it's a matter of perception. And really, how many scholarly or academic-type folks did he attract anyway.

Thanks T-Bone for clarifying. i forget that VW although he is a spiritual pig and a idiot, He is cunning like his father diabolos.
PW's conduct under the circumstances was admirable and he did what so few if any did in leaving a false ministry.
I wonder why VW didnt claim the prophetic ministry but just as a tacher.
I guess people would have easily seen that he was lying through his teeth if he brought on any "direct" messages from God


Thanks

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One thing to keep in mind in this context......throughout the 1950s and 1960s, wierwille concentrated his efforts on reaching church people and specifically, church leaders and ministers.  Having attended E. Stanley Jones' Ashram (retreat) in 1944 with church ministers and elders.....the young 27 year-old wierwille thought that he, too, could do this with his fledgling outreach.

Then.....12 years later (1956)......wierwille, wife and kids, go on that India itinerary.  Wierwille's narcissism is writing checks that his ministry (cough, cough) couldn't cash.  Through contacts with Bishop K.C. Pillai.....a Dr. I. S. Williams becomes their host upon arrival.  Interestingly, Mrs. Wierwille's book references this man as "Dr. J. S. Williams (perhaps, the scribbled notes at the time were the reason for this mistake....or something else?).   Dr. Williams was a prominent and distinguished man.  Dr. I. S. Williams was president of the All-India Federation of Churches  and pastor of the St. Paul's Hindustani Church in Byculla, Bombay and devotee of Indian history.....and more.

Wierwille, in his narcissistic realm, embellishes this huge storyline in pfal of his India experience.  Yet, truth be told......it was Dr. I. S. Williams that was well-respected and highly prominent to religious and political officeholders.....and therefore, doors DID OPEN because Williams was the man that opened them.  Not wierwille.  And, all that bloviating in pfal of teaching the Word of God at the Jain Convention......when in reality, wierwille spoke for about 20-30 minutes (translated by Williams) in a week-long convention. 

So.....back to Peter Wade attending summer school in 1965........the guy was from Australia.  Not only did Wade have talent and skill sets, he also was from another country.  Could it be that this was another reason why wierwille invited him to twi's headquarters?   A young church leaders (check).  Another country (check). 

 

The following links go into more detail.

Narcissistic Self-Promotion

Ash Heap of TWI-story

 

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44 minutes ago, skyrider said:

Could it be that this was another reason why wierwille invited him to twi's headquarters? 

We can't know for sure. I would say, though, it's a real possibility. The Way always seem to focus its recruitment efforts on exercising a "trophy mentality". In other words, "If we could get such and such a famous person to take PFAL, the world would sit up and take notice." There is currently a certain global, quasi-religious cult that relies heavily on this approach. I'm sure you can guess their name.

Edited by waysider

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A whistleblower is person who informs on a person or organization engaged in an illicit activity. Since we really don’t have any details of the split or of what Peter W knew or didn’t know at the time – I am very hesitant to lay any “should-have-dones” on him.

Back in the early days, having Bullinger’s and Kenyon’s books around the bookstore – it may have given the appearance wierwille had nothing to hide...keep in mind the type of folks in his sphere of influence might not have thought it was even such a big deal like we would think today - it's a matter of perception. And really, how many scholarly or academic-type folks did he attract anyway.

Thanks T-Bone for clarifying. i forget that VW although he is a spiritual pig and a idiot, He is cunning like his father diabolos.
PW's conduct under the circumstances was admirable and he did what so few if any did in leaving a false ministry.
I wonder why VW didnt claim the prophetic ministry but just as a tacher.
I guess people would have easily seen that he was lying through his teeth if he brought on any "direct" messages from God

Thanks

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On 3/27/2020 at 12:42 PM, Waxit said:

A whistleblower is person who informs on a person or organization engaged in an illicit activity. Since we really don’t have any details of the split or of what Peter W knew or didn’t know at the time – I am very hesitant to lay any “should-have-dones” on him.

Back in the early days, having Bullinger’s and Kenyon’s books around the bookstore – it may have given the appearance wierwille had nothing to hide...keep in mind the type of folks in his sphere of influence might not have thought it was even such a big deal like we would think today - it's a matter of perception. And really, how many scholarly or academic-type folks did he attract anyway.

Thanks T-Bone for clarifying. i forget that VW although he is a spiritual pig and a idiot, He is cunning like his father diabolos.
PW's conduct under the circumstances was admirable and he did what so few if any did in leaving a false ministry.
I wonder why VW didnt claim the prophetic ministry but just as a tacher.
I guess people would have easily seen that he was lying through his teeth if he brought on any "direct" messages from God

Thanks

vpw used INSINUATION ("weasel words") to INSINUATE he was all sorts of things.  He also rewrote the definitions of things so they could be applied to him.  He INSINUATED he spoke for God, so some people thought he was a prophet.  He claimed an evangelist doesn't win souls, but rather gets the church excited so THEY go and DO THE WORK of winning souls.

He claimed an apostle ("A SENT ONE")   was not a sent one, but "one who brings 'new light' to their generation. It may be 'old light', but to that generation, it's 'new light.' "

All so that people would say he was those, all without him actually using the words "I am an apostle"  or "I am a prophet"  or "I am an evangelist."  

The definitions of "teacher"  and "pastor" , those he was already used to finessing.

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On 3/17/2020 at 5:01 AM, Human without the bean said:

Now here is a question.  Why did it take so many years 10 or 15 or 20 years to wake up to VP Wierwille's mind-washing?  He wasn't a particularly good looking man.  He wasn't a really good orator was he?  He stole what other people said and pawned it off as his own without having anything original of his own to say.  But why did it take so long to wake up?

We grew up. In any group, you will get a few who will idolize the leader, no matter what he says or does. But remember, the heyday of TWI was when it was full of kids who arrested their adolescence and maturation to follow the MOG. For me at least, the closer I got to the leaders, and as time passed, the more I could see the hypocrisy both in doctrine and in behavior. 

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5 hours ago, shazdancer said:

Now here is a question.  Why did it take so many years 10 or 15 or 20 years to wake up to VP Wierwille's mind-washing?  He wasn't a particularly good looking man.  He wasn't a really good orator was he?  He stole what other people said and pawned it off as his own without having anything original of his own to say.  But why did it take so long to wake up?

Actually, it was Human without the bean who said it.

In addition to Shaz' reply, (and I've been able to reflect on this for more than three decades) yes, we grew up. When we were children, we had no knowledge or experience to draw on to evaluate what we saw, heard and experienced in TWI. And for some (i.e.  those who decided to never look to anything outside of the cult for insight) they may have never figured it out. Further, when we were children, we may have been religiously indoctrinated or emotionally prepared such that we were more prone to the particular line of b u l l s h i t Wierwille was peddling.

EVERYone gets conned in life, in some ways or others. We got conned by Wierwille. What's important is that we eventually saw through the con.

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