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Another PFAL Class Full of Dead Men's Bones


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5 hours ago, Twinky said:

"Consulted" could just be a gloss on "read a few books that they wrote" [and that he subsequently plagiarised].

"Worked with" could mean he laid out the chairs for their meetings :biglaugh:.  Or chopped wood or washed the dishes.  I doubt he "chopped Word" and discussed theological issues with anybody.

Y'know.  Like his association with the baseball lot.  Giving you to understand that he'd been a hotshot player, when he probably only sat on the bleachers.

He doesn't mention the people he really poached his classes from, nor Bullinger (dead before VPW born) whose works he also plagiarised.

In October of 1999, Tonto and I went to see Late Night with Conan O’Brien at NBC studios in NY. It was in the same building where Saturday Night Live is produced but on a different floor. While waiting to get in Late Night,     Colin Quinn cast member of Saturday Night Live walked by and began visiting with folks in the line. I got to shake his hand and we quickly exchanged pleasantries. 

When we got into the Late Night studio, there was some pre-show warm-up shtick to get the audience excited for the broadcast. At one point Conan walked up the aisle and was talking to members of the audience. I had an aisle seat. He shook my hand as he welcomed me to the show and asked me where I was from.

You know, if I wanted to tailor my resume to break into the music business, I’d have no qualms inflating my experiences with something like:

  •  consulted and worked with many outstanding individuals in the entertainment industry like Conan O’Brien and Colin Quinn.
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"Has interacted with a variety of actors and famous faces in Hollywood, comedy, and theater, including Earle Hyman, Bruce Willis,  Steven Wright, Taimok, Robin Williams, Michael Keaton, Charles Grodin,  Paul Rodriguez,  and Marlo Thomas." 

 

(I've spoken to MK, CG and MT on the phone.  I've met Steven Wright during Comic Relief, and I've met Paul Rodriguez during Latino Laughing Matters.  I stood directly behind Bruce Willis at a register line in a bookstore but failed to recognize him traveling incognito.  I stood behind Robin Williams at a register line in a bookstore and struck up a very short conversation with him (he was wearing a beard but I knew his voice anywhere. Yes, I got an autograph.)  Earle Hyman I got into a conversation with, and he gave me some very interesting advice about why a person should or should not decide to work in show business.  Taimok I met after a few of us went down the wrong block in Manhattan and wandered across a film shoot.  After the scene was done, he came over and was willing to sign autographs- I not only had a pen, but a clipboard full of blank paper, which I let him use to sign for everybody else as well. 

"Was a consultant for Katherine Ramsland when she wrote her book "PIercing the Darkness."

(To get background for her book, she explored the "vampire" subculture, including the Live Action Role Playing game, "Vampire-The Masquerade."   She attended a single session, in which she participated. Only the Gamemaster knew who she was, and he'd written up a character for her.  I had interacted with her in-game, and had offered some advice, also in-game.  Her book mentioned that the episode included characters worried of a possible bomb onsite- a legitimate concern since my character had disarmed a bomb on a different site in the preceding episode and sweated at the prospect of trying to repeat his previous success.  No, this current bomb was just a rumor. )

 

I've left out my run-in with Downtown Julie Brown.  I was about to walk into a McDonald's when she burst through the door, a bag of food in either hand, and ran straight into a waiting taxi at the curb.   Another second slower and it WOULD have been a run-in, as she would have crashed into me. 

I THINK that's all the celebrities I've had a brush with, at least the ones anyone in the US would recognize.  I'm sure that, with a little tweaking, this list could sound like I hobnob regularly with A-Listers and B-Listers.

 

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17 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

It seems there's no reason at all to believe the India trip experiences. It's too conveniently inconvenient to verify. After that segment in PFAL, one of the sycophants at my "class" told a story about the "healed" Hindi's daughter being present at an advanced class or something at headquarters. That same flying monkey rushed to show me a photo of the 18th century French cemetery after the 4 crucified segment, as if that was evidence of anything at all.

You can't believe your way to Truth. Belief is not required to find out what is true. Only a lie requires belief. 

 

 

Years ago, we delved into this thread, Ash Heap of TWI-story, that documented aspects of wierwille's *India trip experiences.*  

One of the most notable finds......was that their host in India was Dr. I.S. Williams.  He was a prominent church statesman, the president of the All-India Federation of National Churches.  Thus, with his position and notoriety....this man was able to open lots of doors, and the Jain Convention, for another American preacher in their country.

Irony of ironies......Joan Williams, the daughter of these dear parents who hosted Vic and Dotsie and their family was among one of the first international PFAL students in the Van Wert class in June 16-30, 1957.  Then immediately following, July 1-12, wierwille taught the Advanced Class to twenty-three new students, including the three from England, two from India and one from Australia.  (p. 214 Mrs. W's book, Born Again to Serve)

P. 216 -- "While we were preparing for this major transition in our lives from our lifelong involvement in the denomination to going independent into The Way International, Joan Williams, the daughter of our dear Indian friends, was developing a serious romantic relationship with a young man in her second year at Defiance College.  Just before he left to go home for the December holidays, the young man broke off the relationship.  Because of her great disappointment and her cultural background, she became very despondent and ended her life.  This came as very shocking, very sad news to us on Christmas Eve, 1957.  The Williams family were most understanding of the situation but also very grieved.  We buried her body in the cemetery in Defiance according to their wishes."

The above paragraph is quoted word-for-word from Mrs. Wierwille's book.

SO......HERE an advanced class student commits suicide December 24, 1957.  And, not just any run-of-the-mill advanced class student, but the daughter of prominent leaders and elders in India.  

Wierwille's Independent Ministry and Undertaking began December 19, 1957 (p. 219).  So, five days after starting their independent work..... an advanced class student commits suicide.  As I've said many times.......Mrs. Wierwille's book gives us insight to many things that few have ever heard about twi's background and history.  Joan Williams RIP.  Sad.  Clearly, it does raise some questions about "how significant was this advanced class if it didn't enable a student to overcome fear and/or have power over darkness* etc, etc.

 

.

 

 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, skyrider said:

 

Years ago, we delved into this thread, Ash Heap of TWI-story, that documented aspects of wierwille's *India trip experiences.*  

One of the most notable finds......was that their host in India was Dr. I.S. Williams.  He was a prominent church statesman, the president of the All-India Federation of National Churches.  Thus, with his position and notoriety....this man was able to open lots of doors, and the Jain Convention, for another American preacher in their country.

Irony of ironies......Joan Williams, the daughter of these dear parents who hosted Vic and Dotsie and their family was among one of the first international PFAL students in the Van Wert class in June 16-30, 1957.  Then immediately following, July 1-12, wierwille taught the Advanced Class to twenty-three new students, including the three from England, two from India and one from Australia.  (p. 214 Mrs. W's book, Born Again to Serve)

P. 216 -- "While we were preparing for this major transition in our lives from our lifelong involvement in the denomination to going independent into The Way International, Joan Williams, the daughter of our dear Indian friends, was developing a serious romantic relationship with a young man in her second year at Defiance College.  Just before he left to go home for the December holidays, the young man broke off the relationship.  Because of her great disappointment and her cultural background, she became very despondent and ended her life.  This came as very shocking, very sad news to us on Christmas Eve, 1957.  The Williams family were most understanding of the situation but also very grieved.  We buried her body in the cemetery in Defiance according to their wishes."

The above paragraph is quoted word-for-word from Mrs. Wierwille's book.

SO......HERE an advanced class student commits suicide December 24, 1957.  And, not just any run-of-the-mill advanced class student, but the daughter of prominent leaders and elders in India.  

Wierwille's Independent Ministry and Undertaking began December 19, 1957 (p. 219).  So, five days after starting their independent work..... an advanced class student commits suicide.  As I've said many times.......Mrs. Wierwille's book gives us insight to many things that few have ever heard about twi's background and history.  Joan Williams RIP.  Sad.  Clearly, it does raise some questions about "how significant was this advanced class if it didn't enable a student to overcome fear and/or have power over darkness* etc, etc.

 

.

 

 

 

 

Thanks, Sky. I remember reading that thread and all your postings on BATS. Your voice here has been critically important to me over the years. Thank you.

I should have been more precise (mathematically). I was referring to victor's story in PFAL about wading through throngs of adoring Indians and finally healing a random man's withered hand. That man didn't accept Jesus Christ, BUT he believed and ol' Vic just healed him. (At least, this is how I remember that segment.)

The CORPS "teacher" I endured a few years ago told a story that about this same withered-hand-Hindi's daughter being present in New Knoxville at an advanced class or some event between 1976 and 1986. 

This is the "India experience" I have no reason to believe. After all, vic didn't have a healing ministry, he had a research ministry.

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10 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

should have been more precise (mathematically). I was referring to victor's story in PFAL about wading through throngs of adoring Indians and finally healing a random man's withered hand. That man didn't accept Jesus Christ, BUT he believed and ol' Vic just healed him. (At least, this is how I remember that segment.)

Well, at least he didn't lift this one straight out of the Gospels. /s

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2 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

vic didn't have a healing ministry, he had a research ministry.

Was that meant to be sarcastic? :biglaugh:

He didn't have a "research ministry."  He had a deceiving ministry.  Now, who would that be from?  The father of lies, perhaps.

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38 minutes ago, Twinky said:

Was that meant to be sarcastic? :biglaugh:

He didn't have a "research ministry."  He had a deceiving ministry.  Now, who would that be from?  The father of lies, perhaps.

Right! Should have put "research" in quotes.

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And teaching leeching ministry.

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Someone asked about vpw's claim of miraculous healings in Jubbulpore.

 

Orange Book,

pg-29-31.

=========

Whenever I read this record from Mark 3, it reminds me of the times I was practicing the principles of the greatness

of God's Word in other countries of the world. On one occasion when I was teaching in Jubbulpore, India, a lady

who had worked in a mission service for thirty years was delivered by God's power of a number of sicknesses

which appeared incurable. This deliverance caused such a stir in the city of Jubbulpore the morning after the

miracle occurred, that when my family and I were ready to board the train and leave Jubbulpore,

hundreds of people gathered at the railroad depot. This crowd, which was composed mainly of Hindus,

wanted me to lay my hands on them individually because they thought that I must have some special

powers in my hands since I had laid my hands on the woman the previous day. They felt that if I just laid

my hands on them, they too would be delivered. Just before the train on which we were travelling moved

out of the depot, a high-caste Hindu, whose paralyzed arm was hanging limp at his side,

ran up to our railroad compartment. He said to me, "Will you pray for my arm?" However, he immediately

added, "But I do not believe in your Jesus."

What would you have done? I asked him if he believed God would deliver him. He said, "I believe that God

will heal me if you pray for me, but I do not believe in your Jesus." So again I asked him,

"Do you believe God will set you free?" And he said, "I believe God will heal me, but I do not believe in

your Jesus." I laid my hands on him, and I prayed that God would set him free in the name of Jesus Christ.

When I finished I said to him, "Now lift your arm." He began to put it up, and suddenly he thrust up both

of his arms. He leaped and shouted with tears streaming down his face. Once he had lifted his arm a little,

he realized the miracle. He was totally set free. About then the train began moving, and I said,

"Praise God; thank God that you were healed in the name of Jesus Christ."

At the next stop, a man came to our compartment in the train, saying that he was representing his master

who wanted to come and meet the man of God. He said his master was so-and-so, a member of Parliament

in New Delhi, who was also riding on the train. The member of Parliament then came to our compartment

to tell Mrs Wierwille and me that what he had seen in Jubbulpore was the most tremendous Christian event

that he had ever witnessed- that a man of God would bless all God's people irrespective of whether they were

Christian or Hindu. He offered us the keys to his city and said that any time we wanted to minister in India,

the doors of India and the Far East would be open to us to teach the accuracy and the greatness of God's

Word.

===============

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Orange Book,

pg-29-31.

=========

"Whenever I read this record from Mark 3, it reminds me of the times I was practicing the principles of the greatness

of God's Word in other countries of the world. On one occasion when I was teaching in Jubbulpore, India, a lady

who had worked in a mission service for thirty years was delivered by God's power of a number of sicknesses

which appeared incurable. This deliverance caused such a stir in the city of Jubbulpore the morning after the

miracle occurred, that when my family and I were ready to board the train and leave Jubbulpore,

hundreds of people gathered at the railroad depot. This crowd, which was composed mainly of Hindus,

wanted me to lay my hands on them individually because they thought that I must have some special

powers in my hands since I had laid my hands on the woman the previous day."

 

[So,

we have vpw himself praying for the woman, and she was delivered.

Within 24 hours, there was a crowd looking for healing.

And they were non-believers, Hindus, who all just happened to hear about this,

and believed it such that they showed up in a crowd.

Could have happened.

Presuming he prayed and she was delivered.]

 

"They felt that if I just laid my hands on them, they too would be delivered."

 

[I'm unsure of Hindu beliefs in India enough to know if this is typical.]

 

"Just before the train on which we were traveling moved

out of the depot, a high-caste Hindu, whose paralyzed arm was hanging limp at his side,

ran up to our railroad compartment. He said to me, "Will you pray for my arm?" However, he immediately

added, "But I do not believe in your Jesus." "

 

[Supposing this is true,

there was a crowd, and the majority of the people would have been low-caste.

The high-caste guy was willing to shove his way through a crowd of low-caste people,

and thus being in physical contact with them, to shove through them and get to the

front of the group, on the chance that this guy could help him.

Forgive me, I can't picture this guy having the strength to shove through-unless he could

use both arms.]

 

"What would you have done? I asked him if he believed God would deliver him. He said, "I believe that God

will heal me if you pray for me, but I do not believe in your Jesus." So again I asked him,

"Do you believe God will set you free?" And he said, "I believe God will heal me, but I do not believe in

your Jesus." I laid my hands on him, and I prayed that God would set him free in the name of Jesus Christ.

When I finished I said to him, "Now lift your arm." He began to put it up, and suddenly he thrust up both

of his arms. He leaped and shouted with tears streaming down his face. Once he had lifted his arm a little,

he realized the miracle. He was totally set free. About then the train began moving, and I said,

"Praise God; thank God that you were healed in the name of Jesus Christ." "

 

[So, God was fine with this healing. And it was instant. And vpw was preaching from the back of

the train. And allowed to stand there-WITH A CROWD SURROUNDING THE BACK OF THE TRAIN-

while the train prepared to move. And he was allowed to be in physical contact with someone

on the ground as the train is moving forward.

I just don't think the trains in India are run that badly.

It's too cinematic.

The only thing we're missing is the train whistle and sunlight breaking out from the clouds.]

 

"At the next stop, a man came to our compartment in the train, saying that he was representing his master

who wanted to come and meet the man of God. He said his master was so-and-so, a member of Parliament

in New Delhi, who was also riding on the train. The member of Parliament then came to our compartment

to tell Mrs Wierwille and me that what he had seen in Jubbulpore was the most tremendous Christian event

that he had ever witnessed- that a man of God would bless all God's people irrespective of whether they were

Christian or Hindu. He offered us the keys to his city and said that any time we wanted to minister in India,

the doors of India and the Far East would be open to us to teach the accuracy and the greatness of God's

Word. "

 

[And a guy in the train was able to see what happened completely in the back of the train, with his own

eyes.

And had influence in ALL OF INDIA.

And gave vpw a standing invitation to come minister and teach in ALL OF INDIA.

And gave him the keys to New Delhi based entirely on an incident NOT in New Delhi.

And vpw remembered all this, but never followed up in India despite having an open door.

This sounds scripted to me. And not scripted WELL, either.

The only hitch is the existence of some photos I've never seen,

which depict an incident I've never heard described well.]

[For those wondering, one poster claimed he'd seen 2 photos in a crowd, and one person was pointed out as the one who was healed.  That's the limit of what he knew, what was pointed out in the photos.  What I find interesting was that the account here completely contradicts what he was told about the photos.  It's impossible to reconcile THIS account- with the man behind the train as it was pulling out and getting healing at that moment-  and a man in a crowd, where he was photographed in a crowd both before and after the healing, with no TRAIN anywhere in sight.  When I asked about the difference between the photos and vpw's account of the incident- which sounded completely unrelated- he got very defensive and claimed I was calling him a liar for claiming he'd seen 2 photos at all.  He's refused to post another word on the subject, and what that means is open to interpretation.  Myself, I'd think someone eager to set the record straight would want to clear things up, not leave them hanging, but that's me.]

[As for Mrs w's book, she mentioned vpw blessing a crowd of Hindus, and the VIP surprised a Christian man of God would pray for a crowd of Hindus like that.   So, when she had a chance to clear that up, she skipped saying "the VIP saw the miraculous healing and came up to talk to us."   I think her REFUSAL to make that claim says even more.]

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p.155, Born Again to Serve

""When the train came to its first stop, a man from the next

compartment came to our door, saying that his master would like to meet the man of God. So we extended an

invitation to the master to come to our compartment. When we had introduced ourselves, he said, 'We would

like to pay our respects. It is not often we get to travel with such a man of God who blesses all the people.'

He told us he was a member of central government on his way home to Allahabad. He gave Dr. Wierwille the key

to that city."

======================

[Absolutely nothing in her account says anything about a man healed. It was about vpw giving a small speech at the convention, or blessing a crowd or whatever.  If it was about a miraculous healing, that would have been a major point of what the man said.    

On a different note, I'm curious why we never saw a "key to the city" on display, when vpw displayed EVERYTHING.   Someone saw a photo of vpw holding such a key, we did not.  On the whole, it's not a big deal and we will probably never have the specifics.   What was more important was that Mrs w completely skipped over her one chance to confirm the story of the miraculous healing. ]

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Posted (edited)

It's simply a symbolic gesture of honor and goodwill, akin to saying, "We feel honored to have hosted your presence today." Leave it to Wierwille to use it as a steppingstone  to hero status.

 

Did I ever mention I used to sing back-up harmony with The Beatles? (I had one of those waterproof transistor radios that you can hang in the shower.)

Edited by waysider
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Posted (edited)

It's funny.  The closer you inspect every element of VPW life and purported ministry you see it fall apart at the detail level.  

The collaterals.

To me it is ever more evident that those collateral books to PFAL were basically Rhoda W copying down various portions of teachings then decades of them being edited for consistency.  They are so bad and so disjunct 

The leaders of the Way have been well aware of the sham for decades and are complicit in the cover up for their own personal gain.

 

Edited by chockfull
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34 minutes ago, waysider said:

Did I ever mention I used to sing back-up harmony with The Beatles? (I had one of those waterproof transistor radios that you can hang in the shower.)

Ah so you were the sixth Beatle… or as wierwille would say the sick Beatle.

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5 hours ago, WordWolf said:

Someone asked about vpw's claim of miraculous healings in Jubbulpore.

 

Orange Book,

pg-29-31.

=========

Whenever I read this record from Mark 3, it reminds me of the times I was practicing the principles of the greatness

of God's Word in other countries of the world. On one occasion when I was teaching in Jubbulpore, India, a lady

who had worked in a mission service for thirty years was delivered by God's power of a number of sicknesses

which appeared incurable. This deliverance caused such a stir in the city of Jubbulpore the morning after the

miracle occurred, that when my family and I were ready to board the train and leave Jubbulpore,

hundreds of people gathered at the railroad depot. This crowd, which was composed mainly of Hindus,

wanted me to lay my hands on them individually because they thought that I must have some special

powers in my hands since I had laid my hands on the woman the previous day. They felt that if I just laid

my hands on them, they too would be delivered. Just before the train on which we were travelling moved

out of the depot, a high-caste Hindu, whose paralyzed arm was hanging limp at his side,

ran up to our railroad compartment. He said to me, "Will you pray for my arm?" However, he immediately

added, "But I do not believe in your Jesus."

What would you have done? I asked him if he believed God would deliver him. He said, "I believe that God

will heal me if you pray for me, but I do not believe in your Jesus." So again I asked him,

"Do you believe God will set you free?" And he said, "I believe God will heal me, but I do not believe in

your Jesus." I laid my hands on him, and I prayed that God would set him free in the name of Jesus Christ.

When I finished I said to him, "Now lift your arm." He began to put it up, and suddenly he thrust up both

of his arms. He leaped and shouted with tears streaming down his face. Once he had lifted his arm a little,

he realized the miracle. He was totally set free. About then the train began moving, and I said,

"Praise God; thank God that you were healed in the name of Jesus Christ."

At the next stop, a man came to our compartment in the train, saying that he was representing his master

who wanted to come and meet the man of God. He said his master was so-and-so, a member of Parliament

in New Delhi, who was also riding on the train. The member of Parliament then came to our compartment

to tell Mrs Wierwille and me that what he had seen in Jubbulpore was the most tremendous Christian event

that he had ever witnessed- that a man of God would bless all God's people irrespective of whether they were

Christian or Hindu. He offered us the keys to his city and said that any time we wanted to minister in India,

the doors of India and the Far East would be open to us to teach the accuracy and the greatness of God's

Word.

===============

Thanks Word Wolf. That's it. Absolutely hilarious to read!!

From the opening sentence comparing victor to Jesus to the last sentence comparing victor to Paul where the entire Far East will be opened, it reads like fiction, like a Key and Peele parody. It's laughable!

Maybe, later, I will do a full treatment of this piece of work, line by line.

(BTW, India is not devoid of Christians. On the west coast there is a significant Christian community that claims a very ancient tradition going back to the apostle Thomas, my favorite. But that's a topic for another thread.)

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1 hour ago, Nathan_Jr said:

From the opening sentence comparing victor to Jesus to the last sentence comparing victor to Paul where the entire Far East will be opened, it reads like fiction, like a Key and Peele parody. It's laughable!

Not sure if you had this     Key & Peele’s Obama's Anger Translator     in mind 

Then I got to thinking – uh oh :biglaugh:   …it might be helpful if there was a bull$hit translator that ran simultaneously with PFAL – a split screen kind of a thing. For example:

“the teacher”:   do you believe God can heal you? Now raise your arm.

BS Translator: I do believe there’s someone with a question. You sir, with your hand up.

~ ~ ~ ~ 

“the teacher”: millions now smoking

BS Translator: millions now smoking crack
 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, T-Bone said:

Not sure if you had this     Key & Peele’s Obama's Anger Translator     in mind 

Then I got to thinking – uh oh :biglaugh:   …it might be helpful if there was a bull$hit translator that ran simultaneously with PFAL – a split screen kind of a thing. For example:

“the teacher”:   do you believe God can heal you? Now raise your arm.

BS Translator: I do believe there’s someone with a question. You sir, with your hand up.

~ ~ ~ ~ 

“the teacher”: millions now smoking

BS Translator: millions now smoking crack
 

So funny!

I didn't have a particular K&P sketch in mind, but I love their dark satire, and I was imagining vp's narrative as a 1st draft from which they could work. The BS translator suits that little charlatan.

ALSO, I imagined vp's fictional story as a Family Guy cutaway.

if one can read vp's narrative through a glass of Light, one can see the darkness of his lie. Satire is one way to shine the Light of Truth. Victor doesn't scare me, he doesn't teach me, he makes me laugh - I appreciate dark humor.

 

"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy." John 10:10 

Victor opens PFAL with John 10:10, but almost no one recognizes that by this verse he is introducing himself.

 

 

 

Edited by Nathan_Jr
A fire engine red gloved hand
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42 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

.....

"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy." John 10:10 

Victor opens PFAL with John 10:10, but almost no one recognizes that he is introducing himself by this verse.

 

 

:eusa_clap:     :eusa_clap:     :eusa_clap:

The secrecy of his success is the secrecy of his moves.  

 

 

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4 minutes ago, skyrider said:

The secrecy of his success is the secrecy of his moves.

Jesus said: That which is veiled from you shall be unveiled for you. - Logion 5 Gospel of Thomas

A promise.

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Sometimes I really miss giving a #### about all this.

 

By the way, I appreciated the credit for the observations I contributed to previous discussions on the Bastard Jesus drama.

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