Well! I go away on holiday for a few weeks, and come back to find this. Which looked as though it just might have a little substance and seems to have rapidly deteriorated to the same-old same-old. I started to read it from the beginning and at page 8 realised it's 31 pages long...If there is any new idea or thought, please say so...Otherwise, instead of wasting time dissecting the words, works and life of a nonentity man of low reputation and dishonour, it is of more value to spend that time studying the words, works and life of an outstanding Man of exemplary reputation and honour, whose words, works and life will stand for ever.
On 3/21/2023 at 10:37 AM, Mike said:
In between the same-olds are a few items you might find interesting. I posted only half of the scriptures (the double doors half), and the other half (budget) is coming soon.
I think we formed some new perspectives on the law of believing, also.
Now consider these lines from Pound’s Canto LXXIV, which the OED cites in its entry on bull$hit as a verb:
Hey Snag wots in the bibl’?
Wot are the books ov the bible?
Name ‘em, don’t bull$hit ME.
This is a call for the facts. The person addressed is evidently regarded as having in some way claimed to know the Bible, or as having claimed to care about it. The speaker suspects that this is just empty talk and demands that the claim be supported with facts.
He will not accept a mere report; he insists upon seeing the thing itself. In other words, he is calling the bluff.
The connection between bull$hit and bluff is affirmed explicitly in the definition with which the lines by Pound are associated:
As v. trans. and intr., to talk nonsense (to);…also, to bluff one’s way through (something) by talking nonsense.
It does seem that bull$hitting involves a kind of a bluff. It is closer to bluffing, surely, than to telling a lie…
…just what is the relevant difference here between a bluff and a lie?
Lying and bluffing are both modes of misrepresentation or deception…
The liar is essentially someone who deliberately promulgates a falsehood.
Bluffing, too, is typically devoted to conveying something false. Unlike plain lying, however, it is more especially a matter not of falsity but of fakery.
This is what accounts for its nearness to bull$hit. For the essence of bull$hit is not that it is false but that it is phony…
…what is wrong with a counterfeit is not what it is like, but how it was made.
Well, can you offer an alternative theory as to why the devil seems to be winning most of the time?
So you're saying there's more evil in the world.
Well, if your "two doors" theory were true I would think that more evil in the world would cause there to alfso be more good. After all, according to your theory, God opens the "door" and both angels and the devil rush through.
But that can't be true because this whole thread is about the lack of blessing.
Nathan_Jr: “Don't the epistles provide criteria for a man of god? Haven't we already shown victor doesn't meet those criteria?”
Mike:
"The epistles do not tell us how God picks people for super special jobs, like listen to what God said he should trust and not trust in other authors and researchers.That super special 1942 job also entailed teaching it, distributing it and listening to God’s guidance in that as well.He got the job done, mostly, by his retirement in 1982.
=============================
It's rather silly to cling so doggedly to what was so thoroughly disproven.
There was no special nor super special 1942 job. The only reason to think there was, is the testimony of a proven liar and proven fraud.
It is not sound thinking to trust the words of a proven liar. It is not sound thinking to trust the genuine work of a known fraud.
It is not sound thinking to give credibility to someone who has a history of lying, defrauding, and so on. They've already squandered "the benefit of the doubt."
Well, can you offer an alternative theory as to why the devil seems to be winning most of the time?
Yeah. You don't believe scripture that states hes utterly and soundly defeated and his kingdom will literally be pulled down in it's entirety and he will go to perdition. He's a defeated enemy. But you can't believe that you would rather deny scripture and marvel at weak and beggerly elements.
The epistles do not tell us how God picks people for super special jobs,
Your correct. Because scripture never defines a super special job where God would pick a lying, womanizing, drunk, plagaraist to work for him in any capacity without complete repentance and lifestyle change first. God doesn't budge on his qualifications for leadership.
Wierwille spoke of Jesus's Bar Mitzva as being unique because of his perceived illegitimacy. No such custom appears in the Bible. Furthermore, the Bar Mitzva originated in the 14th century CE. Does this glaring error negate the veracity of the collaterals? For some people, it apparently does not. God must have told Wierwille to intentionally include this error.
Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a chocolate chip cookie, will give him an oatmeal instead?
You’re assuming he was a chip off the old choc ( a little poetic / comedic license)
but
if he was a ba$tard child, like when a cult-leader fvcks with your belief system - your faith is stuck with a son of a bi+ch jar of rotten pickles labeled chocolate chip cookies…damn I hate when that happens - wasn’t that an episode on South Park? (In the Advanced Class I was taught anytime I wanted revelation I just needed to reach up into deadbeat dad’s rotten pickles jar )
probably all those budget cuts at the FDA has something to do with the lack of truth in labeling
normally my posts interpret themselves but - hey - tough times - I’ve had to make a few budget cuts too…so artios idios!
I’m sorry for the poor puns …okay - I’m leaving…I know “don’t let those double-doors hit me in the a$$ on the way out.”
You’re assuming he was a chip off the old choc ( a little poetic / comedic license)
but
if he was a ba$tard child, like when a cult-leader fvcks with your belief system - your faith is stuck with a son of a bi+ch jar of rotten pickles labeled chocolate chip cookies…damn I hate when that happens - wasn’t that an episode on South Park? (In the Advanced Class I was taught anytime I wanted revelation I just needed to reach up into deadbeat dad’s rotten pickles jar )
probably all those budget cuts at the FDA has something to do with the lack of truth in labeling
normally my posts interpret themselves but - hey - tough times - I’ve had to make a few budget cuts too…so artios idios!
I’m sorry for the poor puns …okay - I’m leaving…I know “don’t let those double-doors hit me in the a$$ on the way out.”
Just caught your post T-Bone as I was about to get up from my computer. Thanks for writing it - your humor is very helpful when one has to deal with how a cult-leader fvcks with your belief system leaving unresolved ramifications in its wake.
"Well, no. Goodale and Milner [a team of neuroscientists] found, in carefully crafted lab experiments, that our perception is not under direct control of our will." (emphasis mine)
This is in a chapter titled The Reality Gap.
Maybe I missed it, but I don't remember reading where Mike may have made a distinction between what we perceive and how we act.
This relates to this current thread because how we perceive determines whether what we see, perceive, and recognize might cause us to define something as a miracle or not.
BTW, you might be able to find The Loop by Jacob Ward in your local public library. I did, in mine.
"Well, no. Goodale and Milner [a team of neuroscientists] found, in carefully crafted lab experiments, that our perception is not under direct control of our will." (emphasis mine)
This is in a chapter titled The Reality Gap.
Maybe I missed it, but I don't remember reading where Mike may have made a distinction between what we perceive and how we act.
This relates to this current thread because how we perceive determines whether what we see, perceive, and recognize might cause us to define something as a miracle or not.
I don't see it a big deal that our perceptions be all that accurate. What we get mostly from perceptions are how can we move in tight quarters without bumping our head. Perceptions are for survival, and they work just fine for that.
The ONLY real modifications that I am proposing for free will is that we don't have AS MUCH of it as we'd like to believe, and it is not instantly available on demand. It sometimes takes repeated efforts before a free decision is made. Like a muscle it can get stronger or weaker with time.
I don't see it a big deal that our perceptions be all that accurate. What we get mostly from perceptions are how can we move in tight quarters without bumping our head. Perceptions are for survival, and they work just fine for that.
The ONLY real modifications that I am proposing for free will is that we don't have AS MUCH of it as we'd like to believe, and it is not instantly available on demand. It sometimes takes repeated efforts before a free decision is made. Like a muscle it can get stronger or weaker with time.
I emphatically recommend to you to read Jacob Ward's book (I linked in my earlier comment) The Loop.
The end of the chapter on The Reality Gap:
"Unconscious choice is still very much in its infancy as a scientific field, but that hasn't held back efforts to turn its findings against us. People outside the sciences--especially in the world of business and politics--have been catching on to the idea that humans have an unconscious "code" by which they make choices. More and more, companies and political operatives have sought to use that code to shift our behavior. And while the first wave of that sort of research was fairly primitive, there are now whole courses taught at top universities around the world about how to use these findings to persuade customers and sway voters, as we'll examine in the coming chapters.
"Now that we've seen how powerfully our unconscious brains shape our lives, let's look more deeply at how they tell us what to do. Because if we don't familiarize ourselves with the mechanisms of our brains, we'll not only be vulnerable to those who prey on us, we'll be blind to the effects."
I'm reading The Loop because I have been increasingly aware of the actions I take and decisions I consciously make which do not actually end up being what I thought I intended.
Further, I'm increasingly concerned about the adverse impacts social media has in my life, most notably in terms of procrastination and efforts to focus on actual goals.
Therefore, while I am not inclined to use the same words as you about the matter, I'm beginning to put 2 and 2 together independently, recognize, and recall your writing on the subject.
This is also why I have been almost obsessive about avoiding online ads (I use adblockplus, Kamo, and anything else I can find to suppress/minimize the impact of surveillance capitalism, religiously), I loathe broadcast ads, don't listen to any radio station other than my local public classical music station, subscribe to television programming which blocks commercials, and watch/listen listen to clips on YouTube for music.
Yet, I am also aware of AI on Netflix, and on YouTube.
I believe you will find clarity and further insight on this subject, which you began writing about some time ago.
I emphatically recommend to you to read Jacob Ward's book (I linked in my earlier comment) The Loop.
The end of the chapter on The Reality Gap:
"Unconscious choice is still very much in its infancy as a scientific field, but that hasn't held back efforts to turn its findings against us. People outside the sciences--especially in the world of business and politics--have been catching on to the idea that humans have an unconscious "code" by which they make choices. More and more, companies and political operatives have sought to use that code to shift our behavior. And while the first wave of that sort of research was fairly primitive, there are now whole courses taught at top universities around the world about how to use these findings to persuade customers and sway voters, as we'll examine in the coming chapters.
"Now that we've seen how powerfully our unconscious brains shape our lives, let's look more deeply at how they tell us what to do. Because if we don't familiarize ourselves with the mechanisms of our brains, we'll not only be vulnerable to those who prey on us, we'll be blind to the effects."
I'm reading The Loop because I have been increasingly aware of the actions I take and decisions I consciously make which do not actually end up being what I thought I intended.
Further, I'm increasingly concerned about the adverse impacts social media has in my life, most notably in terms of procrastination and efforts to focus on actual goals.
Therefore, while I am not inclined to use the same words as you about the matter, I'm beginning to put 2 and 2 together independently, recognize, and recall your writing on the subject.
I believe you will find clarity and further insight on this subject, which you began writing about some time ago.
Thanks, Rocky. Always good book recs from you.
There's plenty to be concerned about here. AI exploits our instinctive affinity for patterns. We are spoon fed what we want without having to articulate what we want, so we "choose" only what we could have ever chosen.
The ancient, unconscious, pattern-seeking brain is being exploited for profit, whereas the profiteers are carful to mitigate the risk of the customer using his slow, careful, thoughtful brain to make real choices. And WE, the customers, the voters, the potential proselytes, are increasingly anesthetized to this auto comfort.
It is confirmation bias on steroids.
"Rely not on your own understanding."
Chilling.
Edited by Nathan_Jr Mike will never read this book. Nice try, though.
I emphatically recommend to you to read Jacob Ward's book (I linked in my earlier comment) The Loop.
Thanks for the tip. I noticed that he deals a lot with A.I. and I am very interested in how the kind of mundane free will that I am proposing could work in A.I. someday.
There's plenty to be concerned about here. AI exploits our instinctive affinity for patterns. We are spoon fed what we want without having to articulate what we want, so we "choose" only what we could have ever chosen.
The ancient, unconscious, pattern-seeking brain is being exploited for profit, whereas the profiteers are carful to mitigate the risk of the customer using his slow, careful, thoughtful brain to make real choices. And WE, the customers, the voters, the potential proselytes, are increasingly anesthetized to this auto comfort.
"The epistles do not tell us how God picks people for super special jobs, like listen to what God said he should trust and not trust in other authors and researchers
So what your trying to tell me is that in the book Saint Vic claims had "everything pertaining to life and godliness", God somehow forgot the part that would tell us whether we're seeing the real deal or involved with a counterfeit.
I don't see it a big deal that our perceptions be all that accurate. What we get mostly from perceptions are how can we move in tight quarters without bumping our head. Perceptions are for survival, and they work just fine for that.
The ONLY real modifications that I am proposing for free will is that we don't have AS MUCH of it as we'd like to believe, and it is not instantly available on demand. It sometimes takes repeated efforts before a free decision is made. Like a muscle it can get stronger or weaker with time.
And yet perception like logic can be dulled through the lack of use or exercise.
In this I would agree with you. The more factors that are allowed to fill the perception and logic of an individual the more restricted the free will choices are.
Just like the aging grandma who refuses to consider child molestation charges in “Jehovahs governing body” as anything other than lies to hurt the JWs she has little freedom of will.
Just like the staunch believer Mormon who refuses to consider “apostate sites” like the SEC calling out the Mormons for hiding $32b while auditing poor widows for their tithe. His freedom of will is limited.
Just like the sheeple who get the “come on home “ postcard and think “wow I’ll just come on home for sentimental reasons” they give up their freedom of will and sign it over to a taskmaster.
If it’s not that big of a deal that perceptions are accurate then you are the perfect sheeple candidate for TWI. You don’t need or want freedom of will and certainly would not trade it for comfort.
I would trade it for comfort. I’d rather have the free will.
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chockfull
I believe that the real deal is possible and the path toward it is to address and correct all the doctrinal and practical error introduced by VPs box top doctorate research. isolation from other
chockfull
The Corps is a necessary cult element providing free labor at the expense of volunteers lives. Any imagery like the Marines promotes extremist behavior. No other Christian seminary or school use
Nathan_Jr
"Teaching" Romans to the Corps, Q&A: LCM: How much does your behavior that people do not see influence your example to them? VPW: It doesn't, unless you believe it will. LCM: You u
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T-Bone
Now consider these lines from Pound’s Canto LXXIV, which the OED cites in its entry on bull$hit as a verb:
Hey Snag wots in the bibl’?
Wot are the books ov the bible?
Name ‘em, don’t bull$hit ME.
This is a call for the facts. The person addressed is evidently regarded as having in some way claimed to know the Bible, or as having claimed to care about it. The speaker suspects that this is just empty talk and demands that the claim be supported with facts.
He will not accept a mere report; he insists upon seeing the thing itself. In other words, he is calling the bluff.
The connection between bull$hit and bluff is affirmed explicitly in the definition with which the lines by Pound are associated:
As v. trans. and intr., to talk nonsense (to);…also, to bluff one’s way through (something) by talking nonsense.
It does seem that bull$hitting involves a kind of a bluff. It is closer to bluffing, surely, than to telling a lie…
…just what is the relevant difference here between a bluff and a lie?
Lying and bluffing are both modes of misrepresentation or deception…
The liar is essentially someone who deliberately promulgates a falsehood.
Bluffing, too, is typically devoted to conveying something false. Unlike plain lying, however, it is more especially a matter not of falsity but of fakery.
This is what accounts for its nearness to bull$hit. For the essence of bull$hit is not that it is false but that it is phony…
…what is wrong with a counterfeit is not what it is like, but how it was made.
From: pages 44 – 47 of On Bull$hit by Harry G. Frankfurt
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So_crates
So you're saying there's more evil in the world.
Well, if your "two doors" theory were true I would think that more evil in the world would cause there to alfso be more good. After all, according to your theory, God opens the "door" and both angels and the devil rush through.
But that can't be true because this whole thread is about the lack of blessing.
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WordWolf
Nathan_Jr:
“Don't the epistles provide criteria for a man of god? Haven't we already shown victor doesn't meet those criteria?”
Mike:
"The epistles do not tell us how God picks people for super special jobs, like listen to what God said he should trust and not trust in other authors and researchers. That super special 1942 job also entailed teaching it, distributing it and listening to God’s guidance in that as well. He got the job done, mostly, by his retirement in 1982.
=============================
It's rather silly to cling so doggedly to what was so thoroughly disproven.
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/24980-concerning-the-failure-of-the-1942-promise/
There was no special nor super special 1942 job. The only reason to think there was, is the testimony of a proven liar and proven fraud.
It is not sound thinking to trust the words of a proven liar. It is not sound thinking to trust the genuine work of a known fraud.
It is not sound thinking to give credibility to someone who has a history of lying, defrauding, and so on. They've already squandered "the benefit of the doubt."
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Rocky
I don't understand why, if God has a budget shortfall, He doesn't at least pass a continuing resolution until the next fiscal year.
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OldSkool
Yeah. You don't believe scripture that states hes utterly and soundly defeated and his kingdom will literally be pulled down in it's entirety and he will go to perdition. He's a defeated enemy. But you can't believe that you would rather deny scripture and marvel at weak and beggerly elements.
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OldSkool
Your correct. Because scripture never defines a super special job where God would pick a lying, womanizing, drunk, plagaraist to work for him in any capacity without complete repentance and lifestyle change first. God doesn't budge on his qualifications for leadership.
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waysider
"The epistles do not tell us how God picks people for super special jobs."
The Bible offers no instructions on small engine repair, either.
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So_crates
Mike responded on Friday at 5:54:
So_crates:
“You're still presupposing Saint Vic was an MOG. What proof do you have of this?”
The proof is in the package that was delivered to me: the written collaterals, mostly.
Really?!
This proves nothing.
The devil can quote scripture.
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Nathan_Jr
Mike: That is putting evidence on a slightly higher pedestal than it deserves.
Says every Flat Earther... says every propagator of Four Crucified... says anyone "teaching" a bastard bar mitzvah...
Edited by Nathan_JrCrowing cocks
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waysider
Wierwille spoke of Jesus's Bar Mitzva as being unique because of his perceived illegitimacy. No such custom appears in the Bible. Furthermore, the Bar Mitzva originated in the 14th century CE. Does this glaring error negate the veracity of the collaterals? For some people, it apparently does not. God must have told Wierwille to intentionally include this error.
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Nathan_Jr
Or anywhere else.
It was a cookie. The error was only apparent.
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waysider
Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a chocolate chip cookie, will give him an oatmeal instead?
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T-Bone
You’re assuming he was a chip off the old choc (
a little poetic / comedic license)
but
if he was a ba$tard child, like when a cult-leader fvcks with your belief system - your faith is stuck with a son of a bi+ch jar of rotten pickles labeled chocolate chip cookies…damn I hate when that happens - wasn’t that an episode on South Park? (In the Advanced Class I was taught anytime I wanted revelation I just needed to reach up into deadbeat dad’s rotten pickles jar
)
probably all those budget cuts at the FDA has something to do with the lack of truth in labeling
normally my posts interpret themselves but - hey - tough times - I’ve had to make a few budget cuts too…so artios idios!
I’m sorry for the poor puns …okay - I’m leaving…I know “don’t let those double-doors hit me in the a$$ on the way out.”
Edited by T-BoneThis post is Greek to me
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Nathan_Jr
Not I. And my oatmeal cookies are damn good. (They'll make your tongue hard.)
Anyway... gonna file this in a folder.
Mogadishu!
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Charity
Just caught your post T-Bone as I was about to get up from my computer. Thanks for writing it - your humor is very helpful when one has to deal with how a cult-leader fvcks with your belief system leaving unresolved ramifications in its wake.
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Rocky
Might Mike have been onto something when he started telling us we may not really have free will?
On page 16 of The Loop: How Technology is Creating a World Without Choices and How to Fight Back, author Jacob Ward writes, "Our actions feel voluntary, and therefore must be under the direct control of our will, right?" (emphasis in the original)
"Well, no. Goodale and Milner [a team of neuroscientists] found, in carefully crafted lab experiments, that our perception is not under direct control of our will." (emphasis mine)
This is in a chapter titled The Reality Gap.
Maybe I missed it, but I don't remember reading where Mike may have made a distinction between what we perceive and how we act.
This relates to this current thread because how we perceive determines whether what we see, perceive, and recognize might cause us to define something as a miracle or not.
BTW, you might be able to find The Loop by Jacob Ward in your local public library. I did, in mine.
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Mike
I don't see it a big deal that our perceptions be all that accurate. What we get mostly from perceptions are how can we move in tight quarters without bumping our head. Perceptions are for survival, and they work just fine for that.
The ONLY real modifications that I am proposing for free will is that we don't have AS MUCH of it as we'd like to believe, and it is not instantly available on demand. It sometimes takes repeated efforts before a free decision is made. Like a muscle it can get stronger or weaker with time.
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Rocky
I emphatically recommend to you to read Jacob Ward's book (I linked in my earlier comment) The Loop.
The end of the chapter on The Reality Gap:
"Unconscious choice is still very much in its infancy as a scientific field, but that hasn't held back efforts to turn its findings against us. People outside the sciences--especially in the world of business and politics--have been catching on to the idea that humans have an unconscious "code" by which they make choices. More and more, companies and political operatives have sought to use that code to shift our behavior. And while the first wave of that sort of research was fairly primitive, there are now whole courses taught at top universities around the world about how to use these findings to persuade customers and sway voters, as we'll examine in the coming chapters.
"Now that we've seen how powerfully our unconscious brains shape our lives, let's look more deeply at how they tell us what to do. Because if we don't familiarize ourselves with the mechanisms of our brains, we'll not only be vulnerable to those who prey on us, we'll be blind to the effects."
I'm reading The Loop because I have been increasingly aware of the actions I take and decisions I consciously make which do not actually end up being what I thought I intended.
Further, I'm increasingly concerned about the adverse impacts social media has in my life, most notably in terms of procrastination and efforts to focus on actual goals.
Therefore, while I am not inclined to use the same words as you about the matter, I'm beginning to put 2 and 2 together independently, recognize, and recall your writing on the subject.
This is also why I have been almost obsessive about avoiding online ads (I use adblockplus, Kamo, and anything else I can find to suppress/minimize the impact of surveillance capitalism, religiously), I loathe broadcast ads, don't listen to any radio station other than my local public classical music station, subscribe to television programming which blocks commercials, and watch/listen listen to clips on YouTube for music.
Yet, I am also aware of AI on Netflix, and on YouTube.
I believe you will find clarity and further insight on this subject, which you began writing about some time ago.
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Nathan_Jr
Thanks, Rocky. Always good book recs from you.
There's plenty to be concerned about here. AI exploits our instinctive affinity for patterns. We are spoon fed what we want without having to articulate what we want, so we "choose" only what we could have ever chosen.
The ancient, unconscious, pattern-seeking brain is being exploited for profit, whereas the profiteers are carful to mitigate the risk of the customer using his slow, careful, thoughtful brain to make real choices. And WE, the customers, the voters, the potential proselytes, are increasingly anesthetized to this auto comfort.
It is confirmation bias on steroids.
"Rely not on your own understanding."
Chilling.
Edited by Nathan_JrMike will never read this book. Nice try, though.
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Mike
Thanks for the tip. I noticed that he deals a lot with A.I. and I am very interested in how the kind of mundane free will that I am proposing could work in A.I. someday.
I bookmarked his book for future reference.
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Nathan_Jr
As it stands now, AI does not benefit from free will. It is its replacement. Free will is an illusion with current state AI.
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Rocky
Yes, it seems so.
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So_crates
So what your trying to tell me is that in the book Saint Vic claims had "everything pertaining to life and godliness", God somehow forgot the part that would tell us whether we're seeing the real deal or involved with a counterfeit.
Or maybe that's the reason for I Timothy 3.
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chockfull
And yet perception like logic can be dulled through the lack of use or exercise.
In this I would agree with you. The more factors that are allowed to fill the perception and logic of an individual the more restricted the free will choices are.
Just like the aging grandma who refuses to consider child molestation charges in “Jehovahs governing body” as anything other than lies to hurt the JWs she has little freedom of will.
Just like the staunch believer Mormon who refuses to consider “apostate sites” like the SEC calling out the Mormons for hiding $32b while auditing poor widows for their tithe. His freedom of will is limited.
Just like the sheeple who get the “come on home “ postcard and think “wow I’ll just come on home for sentimental reasons” they give up their freedom of will and sign it over to a taskmaster.
If it’s not that big of a deal that perceptions are accurate then you are the perfect sheeple candidate for TWI. You don’t need or want freedom of will and certainly would not trade it for comfort.
I would trade it for comfort. I’d rather have the free will.
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