2 Corinthians 10:5..casting down imaginations and every 'high thing' (vain reasonings and human logic) that exalts itself against the knowledge of God and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ...
John 5:39 Search the scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life and they are they which testifies of me.
(IMO) if one does not keep up with the present truth, eventually truth slips from ones grasp and 'first love' fades. Team the searching and re-searching the timeless truths in God's Word with spiritual truths and s.i.t. and (IMO) again, one will stay fervent with gospel.
Raf, you've gone from JW to Pentecostal to back to JW and now to 'throw it all away ?? After tasting the goodness of God ??
After I was smart enough and spiritually attuned enough to kiss twi goodbye, I've kept up with teachings from Wayne Clapp, John Nessle and others including LCM as of late and I have so much new stuff and new old stuff that after 30 years I'm still convinced, excited and anticipating !
My humblest apologies. There actually ARE threads about me. You know that because you participated in them. And that was fine, because I made that/those thread(s) about me, so it was fair game.
This thread is not about me. It's about a particular topic. In addressing that topic any one of us is welcome to accept or reject evidence that's presented. A healthy discussion allows challenges that are presented in good faith, and responses in good faith. [Dismissive posts are not conducive to a healthy conversation and are just being spit on this thread out of frustration at being unable to address the topic. I am treating those posts with the respect they earned. Yours is not one of those posts].
I cannot tell if you are citing scripture to address the topic at hand, in which case it would be fair game, or to express your disappointment at my personal journey, in which case you are off topic.
Indirectly, you could make the case that one reason I am no longer Christian is my realization that the claims of the Bible cannot withstand honest inquiry [and those claims that can withstand inquiry are not really a big deal]. And this thread would be an example of one such claim. But that still doesn't make ME the topic and I would appreciate it if you would refrain from continuing on that course.
A friend recently sent me this and thought I would place it here in support of the apostles' commitment to Jesus. Have no idea if one or more of these statements are true but if so, could be powerful anecdotal evidence. Please feel free to post any historical inaccuracies of the statements made here:
HOW THE APOSTLES DIED.
1. Matthew. Suffered martyrdom in Ethiopia; killed by a sword wound.
2. Mark. Died in Alexandria Egypt, after being dragged by horses through the streets until he was dead.
3. Luke. Was hanged in Greece as a result of his preaching to the lost.
4. John. Faced martyrdom when he was boiled in a huge basin of boiling oil during a wave of persecution in Rome. However, he was miraculously delivered from death.
John was then sentenced to the mines on the prison island of Patmos. He wrote the Book of Revelation on Patmos. The apostle John was later freed and returned to serve as Bishop of Edessa in modern Turkey. He died as an old man, the only apostle to die peacefully.
5. Peter. He was crucified upside down on an x shaped cross. According to church tradition it was because he told his tormentors that he felt unworthy to die the same way that Jesus had died.
6. James. Leader of the church in Jerusalem, was thrown over a hundred feet down from the southeast pinnacle of the Temple when he refused to deny his faith in Jesus. When they discovered that he survived the fall, his enemies beat him to death with a fuller's club. This was the same pinnacle where Satan had taken Jesus during the Temptation.
7. James the Son of Zebedee, was a fisherman by trade when Jesus called him. As a strong leader of the church, James was beheaded at Jerusalem. The Roman officer who guarded James watched amazed as James defended his faith at his trial. Later, the officer walked beside James to the place of execution. Overcome by conviction, he declared his new faith to the judge and knelt beside James to accept beheading as a Christian.
8. Bartholomew. Also known as Nathaniel, was a missionary to Asia. He witnessed for Jesus in present day Turkey. Bartholomew was martyred for his preaching in Armenia where he was flayed to death by a whip.
9. Andrew. He was crucified on an x shaped cross in Patras, Greece. After being whipped severely by seven soldiers, they tied his body to the cross with cords. His followers reported that, when he was led toward the cross, Andrew saluted it in these words, "I have long desired and expected this happy hour. The cross has been consecrated by the body of Jesus hanging on it". He continued to preach to his tormentors for two days until he expired.
10. Thomas. Stabbed with a spear in India during one of his missionary trips to establish the church in the subcontinent.
11. Jude. He was killed with arrows when he refused to deny his faith in Jesus.
12. Matthias. The apostle chosen to replace Judas. He was stoned and then beheaded.
13. Paul. He was tortured and then beheaded by Emperor Nero in Rome in A.D. 67. Paul endured a lengthy imprisonment, which allowed him to write his many epistles to the churches he had formed throughout the Roman Empire. These letters, which taught many of the foundational doctrines of Christianity, form a large portion of the New Testament.
Oldies, we were kind of dismissive of this post. Are you satisfied with my response? Or would you prefer greater detail? The lack of evidence for the martyrdom of the saints was the straw that broke the camel's back for me in my journey from faith, so it's not a topic I avoid. But in terms of THIS conversation, I think YOU get to decide whether I've adequately addressed it.
Oldies, we were kind of dismissive of this post. Are you satisfied with my response? Or would you prefer greater detail? The lack of evidence for the martyrdom of the saints was the straw that broke the camel's back for me in my journey from faith, so it's not a topic I avoid. But in terms of THIS conversation, I think YOU get to decide whether I've adequately addressed it.
Raf, your response was fine for me, thx for asking.
Once had a friend (who came from India with a heavy Indian accent) confirming this belief that Jesus learned all of his amazing skills from India before age 30. He was very serious, but I have never studied it. Please feel free to post any evidence to the contrary:
Trying to refrain from replying until I have time, but thank you cman for posting that wikipedia link, which neatly sums up most of the "evidence" mythicists need to overcome to be taken seriously.
Some of that is easy. Some of it, not so much.
The expert consensus is the easiest argument to overcome because in this field, the expert consensus is ludicrously biased in favor of tradition. When I hear about the consensus of experts, I tend to expect overwhelming evidence in favor of that consensus, not overwhelming excuses about why we shouldn't expect to find evidence even though, no, seriously, we should.
The notion that we would have to reject other historical figures if we held Jesus to a more rigorous standard is also incorrect. I would submit that such claims would be refuted by asking for an example, one example, of a historical figure whose existence is taken for granted but for whom LESS evidence exists than for Jesus.
You won't find one.
What you'll find instead is a Jesus that has more in common with Robin Hood and King Arthur than with Nathan Hale and Alexander Hamilton.
To your point about consensus, I think the scholarly consensus these days is Moses did not exist as a historical figure. The opposite position was consensus not too long ago.
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cman
I doubt your conclusions Raf, though I respect your right to voice them.
Rocky
Hallelujah!
Nathan_Jr
Been thinking about why Peter and James didn't squash Paul. Who knows... Maybe because they had received intimate, secret training. Maybe they had been taught to guard the secrets and were warned
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Allan
2 Corinthians 10:5..casting down imaginations and every 'high thing' (vain reasonings and human logic) that exalts itself against the knowledge of God and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ...
John 5:39 Search the scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life and they are they which testifies of me.
(IMO) if one does not keep up with the present truth, eventually truth slips from ones grasp and 'first love' fades. Team the searching and re-searching the timeless truths in God's Word with spiritual truths and s.i.t. and (IMO) again, one will stay fervent with gospel.
Raf, you've gone from JW to Pentecostal to back to JW and now to 'throw it all away ?? After tasting the goodness of God ??
After I was smart enough and spiritually attuned enough to kiss twi goodbye, I've kept up with teachings from Wayne Clapp, John Nessle and others including LCM as of late and I have so much new stuff and new old stuff that after 30 years I'm still convinced, excited and anticipating !
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Raf
Alan,
My humblest apologies. There actually ARE threads about me. You know that because you participated in them. And that was fine, because I made that/those thread(s) about me, so it was fair game.
This thread is not about me. It's about a particular topic. In addressing that topic any one of us is welcome to accept or reject evidence that's presented. A healthy discussion allows challenges that are presented in good faith, and responses in good faith. [Dismissive posts are not conducive to a healthy conversation and are just being spit on this thread out of frustration at being unable to address the topic. I am treating those posts with the respect they earned. Yours is not one of those posts].
I cannot tell if you are citing scripture to address the topic at hand, in which case it would be fair game, or to express your disappointment at my personal journey, in which case you are off topic.
Indirectly, you could make the case that one reason I am no longer Christian is my realization that the claims of the Bible cannot withstand honest inquiry [and those claims that can withstand inquiry are not really a big deal]. And this thread would be an example of one such claim. But that still doesn't make ME the topic and I would appreciate it if you would refrain from continuing on that course.
Thanks.
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Raf
Oldies, we were kind of dismissive of this post. Are you satisfied with my response? Or would you prefer greater detail? The lack of evidence for the martyrdom of the saints was the straw that broke the camel's back for me in my journey from faith, so it's not a topic I avoid. But in terms of THIS conversation, I think YOU get to decide whether I've adequately addressed it.
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oldiesman
Raf, your response was fine for me, thx for asking.
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Raf
ok.
Though I reserve the right to make "The Fate of the Apostles" as a separate thread. :)
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modcat5
Putting on my Mod hat to deal with a politics violation, which has been deleted.
And I feel the need to remind people of the difference between posting about people v. posting about ideas.
"Raf, I don't agree with you because this expert in the field says you're mistaken" is posting about ideas.
"Raf, I don't like that you're no longer a believer" is posting about people.
"Raf, you're what's wrong with America" is politics. Also F.U.
"Raf you may think you're right but my holy book says you'll be sorry" is irrelevant and off-topic.
"Raf, I don't agree with your point because BOO!" is not a constructive continuation of the discussion.
If you cannot distinguish between these statements, STAY OFF ALL THREADS.
Thank you.
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Rocky
YIKES!
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modcat5
ok maybe that was a bit much, but seriously, come on dudes. This isn't hard.
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chockfull
Hey mod,
With all of those quote sentences do you think you could make a form out of them with checkboxes?
This way we could easily select one or multiple of them that is most appropriate to the convo?
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Raf
I was going to come up with a clever comeback but I am not that clever.
Well done.
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chockfull
Trying to save you here you convo killer lol
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Raf
Can't reply without violating my own admonition.
Let's just say given the alternatives, I'd prefer killing the conversation.
That said, Nathan, you and Mark were able to disagree with me without making it about me. It's not impossible.
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chockfull
Sorry to box you in. It’s all good people will eventually add in their perspective after a bit.
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cman
there is a pretty long article on the historic Jesus on Wikipedia if anyone is interested
Historical Jesus - Wikipedia
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waysider
Here is what REALLY happened.
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oldiesman
Once had a friend (who came from India with a heavy Indian accent) confirming this belief that Jesus learned all of his amazing skills from India before age 30. He was very serious, but I have never studied it. Please feel free to post any evidence to the contrary:
Jesus Lived in India: His Unknown Life Before and After the Crucifixion: Holger Kersten: 9780143028291: Amazon.com: Books
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waysider
I'm not trying to stir the pot, but that's not how the burden of proof works.
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cman
good point oldies, I did study up on Jesus in India at one time in my life, compelling evidence there is plenty
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waysider
Such as?
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cman
study it for yourself, I didn't do it for anyone
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waysider
I'll take a pass on that.
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Nathan_Jr
Concerning the author of that book on Jesus’ “lost years” in India,
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holger_Kersten
Considerations on other frauds and forgeries at the bedrock of that theory are here, https://ehrmanblog.org/did-jesus-go-to-india-a-modern-gospel-forgery/
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Raf
Trying to refrain from replying until I have time, but thank you cman for posting that wikipedia link, which neatly sums up most of the "evidence" mythicists need to overcome to be taken seriously.
Some of that is easy. Some of it, not so much.
The expert consensus is the easiest argument to overcome because in this field, the expert consensus is ludicrously biased in favor of tradition. When I hear about the consensus of experts, I tend to expect overwhelming evidence in favor of that consensus, not overwhelming excuses about why we shouldn't expect to find evidence even though, no, seriously, we should.
The notion that we would have to reject other historical figures if we held Jesus to a more rigorous standard is also incorrect. I would submit that such claims would be refuted by asking for an example, one example, of a historical figure whose existence is taken for granted but for whom LESS evidence exists than for Jesus.
You won't find one.
What you'll find instead is a Jesus that has more in common with Robin Hood and King Arthur than with Nathan Hale and Alexander Hamilton.
Amyway more later
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Nathan_Jr
To your point about consensus, I think the scholarly consensus these days is Moses did not exist as a historical figure. The opposite position was consensus not too long ago.
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