Dear members of TWI who are Chuckleheads (those TWI who are not Chuckleheads can ignore this )
Please read carefully
Without CHrist's torture and pain there would be no blood sacrifice for our sins
Without Christ's death there could be no resurrection
Without the Ressurrection there would be no Holy Spirit,or eternal life.
TO ignore the tremendous Gift that Christ gave us by willingly undergoing the pain , suffering & agony that was emotional , physical and spritual we negate the tremendous cost of the gift
Please spare me any elevation of M Gibson's motivation in the sacrifice of "his own money" to make this film (and thereby expose XXX number of otherwise ignorant souls to Christ).
His top priority is to reap profits (which priority he is executing in handsome fashion).
Please spare me any elevation of M Gibson's motivation in the sacrifice of "his own money" to make this film (and thereby expose XXX number of otherwise ignorant souls to Christ).
His top priority is to reap profits (which priority he is executing in handsome fashion).
LLP
How do you know this?
Are you Mel Gibson's spokesperson?
Do you have direct contact to his mind?
Or do you just believe the worst about everyone?
It might be a good idea not to speak for others, but only speak for yourself.
I can't shake this certain sense of deja vu when browsing the discussions surrounding this movie. I admittedly have not seen it yet - I will at some point, I'm certain. Preferably on a day I choose not to eat anything. But in hearing of the extreme beatings and tortures in bloody, graphic detail that the Jesus in this movie undergoes, I can't help but think back on the Wayworld hoopla surrounding the release of "Jesus Christ Our Passover" a few years ago, in which speakers enthusiastically depicted the intense brutality to which Jesus was subjected (even getting sodomized by the Romans) - with one speaker (V**** F******) also going so far as to describe a beaten, mutilated Christ with his eye popped out of its socket and hanging out.
Is it just me, or does anyone else here get that sense that we've heard all this "beat-the-Jesus-into-a bloody-hamburger" stuff before?
In all fairness, perhaps my impressions are premature. But nonetheless, I find the parallels a bit weird, to say the least.
I still think Jesus Christ Our Passover was the best book TWI ever published. Thankfully, it does NOT include that teaching about sodomy=made sport of...I do not believe that teaching anymore.
When watching The Passion Of Christ movie, my twi-brain had problems with "12 hours" (wasn't it really 48 hrs?), the t shaped wooden cross, Jesus carrying it, Judas hanged himself WITH A ROPE BEFORE the ressurrection, the comma before "today", and many more nit-picky things. (i almost forgot to mention 3 crucified verses 5.)
However, my heart said this movie inspires me to make Jesus my lord, more dearly, day by day, communion service mean a LOT more to me. I am more convinced that Jesus IS THE Way...if anyone could just believe in God and go to heaven, then
The Father would not have asked His Son to suffer like that.
[This message was edited by Golfie on March 13, 2004 at 1:38.]
Golfie -- yea -- 48 hours is more like it. JC got "took" on a Monday, and was on the cross by 9 am Wednesday. I have a problem with the "last 12 hours" too, since the last 6 that we know of for sure, were spent on the cross itself.
When I hear people talk about how bloody It was I remember that the OT says he was no longer recognizable as A man.
THe was a painting done by a Believerf in TWI of the Crucifiction showing Christ on the Cross in profile--done in Reds and Oranges it was meant to portray the crucifiction in a less sanatized way--
I alwys liked that picture--does anyne know what I am talking about???
Near the end of VPW's life, it seems that he desired for the followers of the way to see more and understand more of the physical life of Jesus Christ on this earth, as shown via the gospels.
His last books published are evident of that; and even his future books (which LCM dropped like a lead ballon), "The harmony of the gospels" and "Jesus Christ the apostle and high priest", which Walter Cummins later published as "The acceptable year of the Lord".
In VPW's last year or so, we witnessed the wonderful play, "Glory to God in Highest", the story of the birth of Christ, which was played and video taped at headquarters. (Those close to headquarters had the privledge of seeing this play; and VPW promised us that maybe we needed 6 or 7 more plays on the life of Christ)BUT LCM, in his zeal for athletes of the Spirit and the Epistles side of the story, that project was dropped. (Maybe more Corps grads know more about this than myself)
This play, "Glory to God in the Highest", was a breathtaking story of the Shepard view of our Lords birth. (IMO, the way could have made a movie out of it) was not promoted around the way country and world. (It's a damn shame)
I believe that in VPW's last days, knowing his end was near, he came to himself and realized that he knew all about Jesus Christ but he didn't KNOW Jesus Christ.
I believe he made an attempt to correct the problem; but it was too late.
Another thing I find interesting and would like to know more about is what VPW stated many years ago when quoting a verse in Isaiah 53.
VP said that Jesus died two deaths(first a spiritual death, he lost Holy Spirit and than a physical death) Vp than showed the word death was plural, (deaths)
My thinking is did Jesus have to die for Adam also and did Jesus have to experience the same fate Adam experienced to become the last Adam and completely save all mankind?
I have to agree with Wordwolf. Mel could have lost a sizeable portion of his personal finances, plus his reputation as an actor and director, over this venture.
One such example is the movie "Ishtar" which had Dustin Hoffman and Warren Beatty starring in it. Although I personally enjoyed the movie, the critics savaged it and continually harped on how much money it took to produce. Director Elaine May's career took a huge hit, and I don't believe it's recovered to this day.
I think Mel Gibson was hoping he would get a return on his investment (who wouldn't, especially with $25 million of your own money), but I believe he was more committed to his religious and artistic vision being realized.
Another thing I find interesting and would like to know more about is what VPW stated many years ago when quoting a verse in Isaiah 53.
VP said that Jesus died two deaths(first a spiritual death, he lost Holy Spirit and than a physical death) Vp than showed the word death was plural, (deaths)
I only checked one source, but blueletterbible.com does not show that "death" is plural in Isaiah 53.
It doesn't matter if we turn to dust...guess I'll see you dancin' in the ruins tonight
Near the end of VPW's life, it seems that he desired for the followers of the way to see more and understand more of the physical life of Jesus Christ on this earth, as shown via the gospels.
His last books published are evident of that; and even his future books (which LCM dropped like a lead ballon), "The harmony of the gospels" and "Jesus Christ the apostle and high priest", which Walter Cummins later published as "The acceptable year of the Lord".
That's a very interesting observation, Lightside, in view of the works that came out concerning the topic of Jesus' death and birth, as well as the planned "Harmony" of the gospels.
Unfortunately, it seemed too little, too late, and an unwinnable battle, so long as the PFAL teaching of the 4 gospels being part of the Old Testament (which rendered the teachings of Jesus as not addressed to us) remained in place and unchallenged.
Wierwille might have made a more significant impact upon his group and cleared away matters for the better had he the good sense to discard that unhealthy obstruction from the start.
I mean, he could have gone on and on discussing where Jesus was born, and where He slept and where He ate, and where and how He died ,but it's all futile if the actual teachings of Jesus are not considered as having any weight of revelance or authority or application for one's life in the present. Without the teachings of Jesus, one might have just as well worshiped Mithra or Prometheus or any number of other magical-mystery saviors on a stick.
Danny
[This message was edited by TheInvisibleDan on March 13, 2004 at 14:00.]
IMO, Mel is forfilling a commitment to never forget where he came from.
In his youth he was beat severly while he working on the docks in Aussie Land. He was so disfigured from the beating that after he healed no one would hire him.( I got this from NPR) He was absolutly horrifying to look at. When he had hit his very bottom he walked inside a church. The priest felt so bad for him and worked on getting him help. The priest worked with the medical community to get surgery done pro-bono. What was not pro-bono was paid by he church.
Mel in his journey has done another fine peice of work."The man without a face" I think he was able to catharticly move past some of the emotions that he felt in that time of isolation in his life.
In an interview I heard he said that his drug and alcohol abuse had left him spiritualy bankrupt. He was suisidal and finally went into recovery. There he was able to heal and put his personal demons to rest.
To forfill a promise to never forget what was done for him by the church....hence the movie. This movie was 10 yrs in the making in his mind.
So herrrraaah for Mel . His own personal thankyou to not only the church but his God too.
TWI be damned. Let me see them put our money where there mouth is. A HAA, didn't think so.
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A la prochaine
Insurgent,
It's always been about power with them hasn't it! Same arrogant attitude as ever.
If you do not understand his death, you will never understand his ressurection.
If you do not understand what he suffered for us, you will never be able to understand the greatness of God's love towards us.
Thank you Insurgent for reminding me of TWI's callous and shallow approach towards Christianity. Nothing has changed.
They don't get the 'Passion' part do they? How sad ...
:(-->
'til the next time...
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Raf
More people have seen the Passion, and have an appreciation for Christ because of it, than have ever HEARD of The Way International.
And for the umpteenth time, the movie INCLUDES the resurrection!
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Mark Sanguinetti
I hear yea. It sound like petty jealousy by TWI. But then so what else is new? Thanks for your keen and upright perspective Insurgent.
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oldiesman
Am I missing something? When and where did TWI comment on "The Passion"?
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Steve!
Yes, OMPhil, you are missing something.
Insurgent is an "innie".
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oldiesman
Who made the statement and exactly what was said?
Sounds to me like they need to be reminded of our Lord and Saviour's good graces.
I'd write them a letter and give them my two cents, for what it's worth.
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templelady
Dear members of TWI who are Chuckleheads (those TWI who are not Chuckleheads can ignore this
)
Please read carefully
Without CHrist's torture and pain there would be no blood sacrifice for our sins
Without Christ's death there could be no resurrection
Without the Ressurrection there would be no Holy Spirit,or eternal life.
TO ignore the tremendous Gift that Christ gave us by willingly undergoing the pain , suffering & agony that was emotional , physical and spritual we negate the tremendous cost of the gift
MO
(who Used to be Maure)
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lowlylollypoppy99
Please spare me any elevation of M Gibson's motivation in the sacrifice of "his own money" to make this film (and thereby expose XXX number of otherwise ignorant souls to Christ).
His top priority is to reap profits (which priority he is executing in handsome fashion).
LLP
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Tom Strange
I think I'm gonna wait to see what he does with all that dough before judgeing his motives...
do you think the theater's will still be crowded?
It's hard to make that change, When life and love turns strange. And old.
To give a love, you gotta live a love. To live a love, you gotta be "part of". When will I see you again?
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chwester
How do you know this?
Are you Mel Gibson's spokesperson?
Do you have direct contact to his mind?
Or do you just believe the worst about everyone?
It might be a good idea not to speak for others, but only speak for yourself.
Proud to be an American
www.northpoint.org
www.anncoulter.org
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J0nny Ling0
Why Chwester! Such a fine bit of wisdom in that inspiration! Well said that! Righto, pip pip, cheerio and all of that!
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excathedra
yeah so neither LLP nor chwester know his motives
pip
pip
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TheInvisibleDan
I can't shake this certain sense of deja vu when browsing the discussions surrounding this movie. I admittedly have not seen it yet - I will at some point, I'm certain. Preferably on a day I choose not to eat anything. But in hearing of the extreme beatings and tortures in bloody, graphic detail that the Jesus in this movie undergoes, I can't help but think back on the Wayworld hoopla surrounding the release of "Jesus Christ Our Passover" a few years ago, in which speakers enthusiastically depicted the intense brutality to which Jesus was subjected (even getting sodomized by the Romans) - with one speaker (V**** F******) also going so far as to describe a beaten, mutilated Christ with his eye popped out of its socket and hanging out.
Is it just me, or does anyone else here get that sense that we've heard all this "beat-the-Jesus-into-a bloody-hamburger" stuff before?
In all fairness, perhaps my impressions are premature. But nonetheless, I find the parallels a bit weird, to say the least.
Danny
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Golfie
Danny,
I still think Jesus Christ Our Passover was the best book TWI ever published. Thankfully, it does NOT include that teaching about sodomy=made sport of...I do not believe that teaching anymore.
When watching The Passion Of Christ movie, my twi-brain had problems with "12 hours" (wasn't it really 48 hrs?), the t shaped wooden cross, Jesus carrying it, Judas hanged himself WITH A ROPE BEFORE the ressurrection, the comma before "today", and many more nit-picky things. (i almost forgot to mention 3 crucified verses 5.)
However, my heart said this movie inspires me to make Jesus my lord, more dearly, day by day, communion service mean a LOT more to me. I am more convinced that Jesus IS THE Way...if anyone could just believe in God and go to heaven, then
The Father would not have asked His Son to suffer like that.
[This message was edited by Golfie on March 13, 2004 at 1:38.]
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dmiller
Golfie -- yea -- 48 hours is more like it. JC got "took" on a Monday, and was on the cross by 9 am Wednesday. I have a problem with the "last 12 hours" too, since the last 6 that we know of for sure, were spent on the cross itself.
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templelady
When I hear people talk about how bloody It was I remember that the OT says he was no longer recognizable as A man.
THe was a painting done by a Believerf in TWI of the Crucifiction showing Christ on the Cross in profile--done in Reds and Oranges it was meant to portray the crucifiction in a less sanatized way--
I alwys liked that picture--does anyne know what I am talking about???
MO
(who Used to be Maure)
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corrydj
That's what really stuck out to me. The signifigance of the communion.
I remember thinking as I watched it, "why didn't someone just explain it to me like that when I was a kid."
It made so much sense the way Mel put it in there.
corrydj
"Why you going to the airport, flyin' somewhere?"
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WordWolf
"His primary motive is to make money."
Then a seasoned veteran of the movie biz should have known not to
bother making this movie.
He faced opposition and criticism of the idea of ever making this movie.
He faced opposition during the making. Various organizations and critics
made wild accusations about it sight unseen, and most critics panned it
(except Ebert and Roeper). (My local newspaper's summary person gave it
one star-compared to giving Barber Shop 2 two stars, and the latest
Adam Sandler movie 2 1/2 stars.) He needed to bankroll the entire thing
out-of-pocket, which is NEVER a good sign for a movie. Some groups tried
to organize resistance and have the movie never open in theaters. Various
show biz types already said Gibson may have killed his career with this,
before it opened. So, if it tanked, Gibson stood to lose his entire
investment, financially, and lose millions in lost revenues in the movies
he would be passed up for in the future.
I'm sure money was/is a concern in this, but the PRIMARY concern?
The evidence seems to indicate otherwise.
Personally, I HOPE he makes a fortune off this movie. I made a point of
seeing it in the theater specifically for this reason. The industry has
been overcoming its dismay over the movie's financial success, and is
now contemplating getting in on this "action".
:)-->
Yes, twi's obviously jealous that Gibson did a better job than they ever
could, even WITH all the traditional elements in the movie. That movie
made it more living and real than any number of readings of JCOP ever
did.
twi always gets chafed when somebody else upstages them-this "Christ is
preached" stuff hardly seems a mitigating factor to them.
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Lightside
All just my opinion.
Near the end of VPW's life, it seems that he desired for the followers of the way to see more and understand more of the physical life of Jesus Christ on this earth, as shown via the gospels.
His last books published are evident of that; and even his future books (which LCM dropped like a lead ballon), "The harmony of the gospels" and "Jesus Christ the apostle and high priest", which Walter Cummins later published as "The acceptable year of the Lord".
In VPW's last year or so, we witnessed the wonderful play, "Glory to God in Highest", the story of the birth of Christ, which was played and video taped at headquarters. (Those close to headquarters had the privledge of seeing this play; and VPW promised us that maybe we needed 6 or 7 more plays on the life of Christ)BUT LCM, in his zeal for athletes of the Spirit and the Epistles side of the story, that project was dropped. (Maybe more Corps grads know more about this than myself)
This play, "Glory to God in the Highest", was a breathtaking story of the Shepard view of our Lords birth. (IMO, the way could have made a movie out of it) was not promoted around the way country and world. (It's a damn shame)
I believe that in VPW's last days, knowing his end was near, he came to himself and realized that he knew all about Jesus Christ but he didn't KNOW Jesus Christ.
I believe he made an attempt to correct the problem; but it was too late.
Another thing I find interesting and would like to know more about is what VPW stated many years ago when quoting a verse in Isaiah 53.
VP said that Jesus died two deaths(first a spiritual death, he lost Holy Spirit and than a physical death) Vp than showed the word death was plural, (deaths)
My thinking is did Jesus have to die for Adam also and did Jesus have to experience the same fate Adam experienced to become the last Adam and completely save all mankind?
Anyone opinions are welcome.
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Kevlar2000
LLP,
I have to agree with Wordwolf. Mel could have lost a sizeable portion of his personal finances, plus his reputation as an actor and director, over this venture.
One such example is the movie "Ishtar" which had Dustin Hoffman and Warren Beatty starring in it. Although I personally enjoyed the movie, the critics savaged it and continually harped on how much money it took to produce. Director Elaine May's career took a huge hit, and I don't believe it's recovered to this day.
I think Mel Gibson was hoping he would get a return on his investment (who wouldn't, especially with $25 million of your own money), but I believe he was more committed to his religious and artistic vision being realized.
IMO.
Kevlar - Not thick, just impenetrable.
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Oakspear
It doesn't matter if we turn to dust...guess I'll see you dancin' in the ruins tonight
Oakspear
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templelady
THe "Lost the Holy SPirit" is VPW at his worst.
THere is nowhere where CHrist Is shown Losing THe Holy Spirit--In fact if he lost it--how was he able to sent "the Comforter" at Pentacost?
Did he go to the Lost and Found Dept of HEaven???
DO you really think that GOd would take the Holy Spirit from his SOn when He Most Needed it?
DO you Think Christ was so careless has to Leave The HS somewhere on a rock in Gesthemane??
I just reread this and it sounds like I'm angry--I am but not at you Oakspear--Angry at VPW --LCM and TWI etal for promoting such devilish doctrine
MO
(who Used to be Maure)
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TheInvisibleDan
That's a very interesting observation, Lightside, in view of the works that came out concerning the topic of Jesus' death and birth, as well as the planned "Harmony" of the gospels.
Unfortunately, it seemed too little, too late, and an unwinnable battle, so long as the PFAL teaching of the 4 gospels being part of the Old Testament (which rendered the teachings of Jesus as not addressed to us) remained in place and unchallenged.
Wierwille might have made a more significant impact upon his group and cleared away matters for the better had he the good sense to discard that unhealthy obstruction from the start.
I mean, he could have gone on and on discussing where Jesus was born, and where He slept and where He ate, and where and how He died ,but it's all futile if the actual teachings of Jesus are not considered as having any weight of revelance or authority or application for one's life in the present. Without the teachings of Jesus, one might have just as well worshiped Mithra or Prometheus or any number of other magical-mystery saviors on a stick.
Danny
[This message was edited by TheInvisibleDan on March 13, 2004 at 14:00.]
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imbus
IMO, Mel is forfilling a commitment to never forget where he came from.
In his youth he was beat severly while he working on the docks in Aussie Land. He was so disfigured from the beating that after he healed no one would hire him.( I got this from NPR) He was absolutly horrifying to look at. When he had hit his very bottom he walked inside a church. The priest felt so bad for him and worked on getting him help. The priest worked with the medical community to get surgery done pro-bono. What was not pro-bono was paid by he church.
Mel in his journey has done another fine peice of work."The man without a face" I think he was able to catharticly move past some of the emotions that he felt in that time of isolation in his life.
In an interview I heard he said that his drug and alcohol abuse had left him spiritualy bankrupt. He was suisidal and finally went into recovery. There he was able to heal and put his personal demons to rest.
To forfill a promise to never forget what was done for him by the church....hence the movie. This movie was 10 yrs in the making in his mind.
So herrrraaah for Mel . His own personal thankyou to not only the church but his God too.
TWI be damned. Let me see them put our money where there mouth is. A HAA, didn't think so.
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