I don't have any inside information. However, I do know something about Wierwille's and the TWI mindset. First and foremost the new president had to be loyal to Wierwille. Wierwille likely choose him because of the TWI leaders, he was the best A$$ kisser of the bunch. In addition to that he had good speaking skills and had a college degree which gave TWI a little bit of credibility with the academic world.
The drawback of Craig was that he was extremely arrogant and showed very little love for God's people.
I was never in the corps, yet I heard many rumors:
1) girl I knew in the 11th corps said during her 1st block in res. (fall of '80) they were asked to vote. She said she voted for Vince F. but never heard another thing.
2) that Craig was picked because he was married to Donna the superbelieverwoman (?)
3) revelation to VP
4) Because Walter was too old (he's 4 yrs older than Craig?????!!!!!)
5) Craig's believing; he wasn't going to settle for anything less than the top spot
From what I heard, being on staff and from other "top" staffers, no LCM was not VP's first choice. It was Walter Cummins.
Then, the region and limb leadership balked at that. There was a meeting held with the top leadership and they voted for LCM.
My brother was working on a film on VP shortly after the public announcement it was LCM. He told me he asked VP several times why he picked LCM. VP would not answer. Finally, when asked again, VP said, "because he doesn't ask how high when I say jump." But it was pretty obvious that VP was not too happy with the choice and did not want to talk about it.
So, from my understanding, if VP had had his way, it would have been Walter. But the leadership had their way instead.
Mark Sanguinettii might be right on the A$$ kissing part, being the egotistical, womanizing person that he (LCM)is.
And TheInvisibleDan is more than likely closer to the second point about LCM than Loy wants to be known. Where else would he have learned about the fringe benifits that he utilized as MOGFOT. Someone had to show him the ropes, then he used the information to get what he wanted from VPW.
Wow! Suneisis' post makes me wonder if LCM wasn't already pimping out his girls to limb and region cordos and they wanted to make sure the goodies kept on coming.
From what I heard, being on staff and from other "top" staffers, no LCM was not VP's first choice. It was Walter Cummins.
Then, the region and limb leadership balked at that. There was a meeting held with the top leadership and they voted for LCM.
My brother was working on a film on VP shortly after the public announcement it was LCM. He told me he asked VP several times why he picked LCM. VP would not answer. Finally, when asked again, VP said, "because he doesn't ask how high when I say jump." But it was pretty obvious that VP was not too happy with the choice and did not want to talk about it.
So, from my understanding, if VP had had his way, it would have been Walter. But the leadership had their way instead.
quote: From what I heard, being on staff and from other "top" staffers, no LCM was not VP's first choice. It was Walter Cummins.
I would have to agree with you there. I remember being at PFAL '77 and VP had introduced Walter Cummins for a teaching or something and he said in his introduction something like this..."If I had to be replaced today as President of The Way International, this is the man I would get to take my place."
So all the following years, I always thought that Walter Cummins was the man. When I heard that LCM was chosen I nearly fell off my chair.
From what I heard, being on staff and from other "top" staffers, no LCM was not VP's first choice. It was Walter Cummins.
Then, the region and limb leadership balked at that. There was a meeting held with the top leadership and they voted for LCM.
I was not as close to HQ staffers at the time as Sunesis was. My personal opinion is I would be surprised if vpw allowed himself to get voted down on such an important issue as this. But I've been wrong before [just ask my wife].
This is the kind of stuff I'd love to hear from John Lynn and folks who were there, rather than the goofy doctrinal stuff.
John, if you're listening throw us unbelievers a bone and share a bit of history please.
Walter was the heir apparent when I joined twi in 1975...but Walter lacked the charismatic personality and powerful teaching style. It soon became apparent to me that lcm was positioning himself for the job. Veepee loved lcm's arrogant and loud style...and YES, NOBODY kissed Veepee arse as much as old Loy did. He puckered up every chance he got.
I remember it all very well...Although I was not privy to the conversations that took place amoung the top leaders, I am fairly certain that Veepee made the decision on his own...he was too egotistical to allow someone else to make the selection for him. I also believe that Veepee regretted his decision shortly after kingokie took over...
It was martindale's complete obsession with "athletes of the spirit", I believe, that initially drove a wedge between Veepee and kingokie. Veepee was quoted as bitterly mumbling under his breath, that LCM was spending his whole first year as president dancing around in tights and ignoring the more important duties of his job. It was the AOS doctrine that craiggers used as a springboard to start rewritting twi doctrine and develope his own classes...his goal was to purge all memory of Veepee from twi and establish himself as the great one. Veepee went to his deathbed feeling neglected and ignored by martindale.
I think Wierwille's selection of kingokie illustrates the extremely poor judgement that Veepee used to make his selection. Almost anybody else would have done a better job.
Kudos, huncle hairy! I havent thought about that for a looong time. I met lcm for the first time at roa 1976. I never could understand why I did not like him, aside from the filthy arrogance and mega-ego, I tried to like him but never could get over his love for himself. Just as well, because while I was on the wow field I sent a letter to emporia informing them that I would not be attending 7th corps. I received a letter from lcm stating that if I did not keep my committment then I could expect one of three things: tragic death within a year, admittance to a mental institution, . I cant remember the third spittle-laden word of encouragement.. I wish that I had kept that letter. Do you know the one that I am talking about? Anyway, back to lcm and vpw.."can you hear me in the back"..it is way weird how vpw could make such a boner. Remember live advanced class 1979 in Columbus,OH? lcm was running with a few other heavies from gunnison( I think) to Columbus. Of course they arrived the day before the class began and lcm was carrying the torch in front of the rest. He was so into himself. Ironically, after this two week class I decided to plan my fading away. At the conclusion of the class we all went to the football stadium to have one of those rolling group pictures. Then lcm and some others presented vpw with the love offering: a brand new jet black stretch limo. That is the day that fear took on a new meaning for me. If anyone else was there I would love to hear from them and find out how they responded to his "gift".
Here is what I have heard from a very, very reliable source just a few years ago.
VP apparently had a list of 4 or 5 names who he was considering as candidates to take his place. He showed the list to a trusted few (very few from what I was told). After a year went by, the list was whittled down to LCM & Walter. He showed these two names to these people again, and the majority of them pointed to Walter's name. VP picked LCM in spite of their opinions.
Actually, in retrospect I wonder if it's such a terrible thing that Loy was picked. Maybe it wouldn't have crashed and burned like it has and many thousands more would be hurt if someone with more ability had taken over.
Blue Sunday, not to be too picky but the live Advanced Class in 1979 was in Athens, Ohio, not Columbus. Also, I thought the car they took up the collection for was that Lincoln Town Car...?
Wierwille was always showered with expensive gifts...cars, motorcyles, etc. I recall when we presented him with a Remington statue...one of those cowboy busts that cost PLENTY! We gave it to him at Emporia as a gift from the corps...
For being such a "great servant", he really was waited on hand and foot and treated as royalty...and he ate it up with a spoon!
When LCM took the reins, he could never seem to rise up the to level of "the great one"...he became consumed with jealousy. That is why I believe, that he ran off all the other top leaders from the first few corps...they were his peers and were not in awe of him like they were of Veepee. He tried to purge the ministry of all things that related to Veepee...his classes and books were replaced by LCM's...he chased away anybody who wouldn't bow down and kiss his signet ring (sign the loyalty oath)...he was consumed with being the MOG and wanted everyone to be in awe of him.
It was really sad when you think about it. Wierwille handed this jerk the world on a silver platter...all he had to do was "keep the trains running on time"...instead, he dismantles the 3 main recruitment tools...pfal, the ROA, and the WOW program...brilliant! Then he alienates all the qualified "leadership" and oldtimers and runs them off. Twi then makes the complete metamorphis by changing from, what was originally "there's no strangers at the Way" ministry that focused on salvation, forgiveness and love...to a "ministry" of fear, loathing and manipulation, where "becoming a greasespot by midnight" would be the order for the day. What a moron!
Thanks, WG. It was in Athens and it was silver. It was so long ago and when I think about it now it all seems so unreal. Do you remember the protesters that were outside the building during the class? vp really chewed their their orifices.
Maybe Craig was simply jealous that we weren`t taking up for town cars and motor cycles for him....thus the *no gift* policy was enacted.
Derailmant warning! Kindda kills me to think of alla the millions that they had pouring in at the time.......and yet they still had the nerve to pump us for extra cash for these *love* offerings....
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Mark Sanguinetti
I don't have any inside information. However, I do know something about Wierwille's and the TWI mindset. First and foremost the new president had to be loyal to Wierwille. Wierwille likely choose him because of the TWI leaders, he was the best A$$ kisser of the bunch. In addition to that he had good speaking skills and had a college degree which gave TWI a little bit of credibility with the academic world.
The drawback of Craig was that he was extremely arrogant and showed very little love for God's people.
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johniam
I was never in the corps, yet I heard many rumors:
1) girl I knew in the 11th corps said during her 1st block in res. (fall of '80) they were asked to vote. She said she voted for Vince F. but never heard another thing.
2) that Craig was picked because he was married to Donna the superbelieverwoman (?)
3) revelation to VP
4) Because Walter was too old (he's 4 yrs older than Craig?????!!!!!)
5) Craig's believing; he wasn't going to settle for anything less than the top spot
Hopefully somebody knows for sure.
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George Aar
Johnur,
IIRC, Donna was the Vicster's choice for LCM!
And, yeah, Craig was an unabashed toadie for Herr Vierville, and browned him up quite regular.
To give the devil his due, Craig could work a crowd like few I've ever seen. It was either take over WayWorld or become a Carnival barker.
Wierwille saw the talent but (apparently) overlooked the baggage (that Loy was a freaking buffoon)...
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Sunesis
From what I heard, being on staff and from other "top" staffers, no LCM was not VP's first choice. It was Walter Cummins.
Then, the region and limb leadership balked at that. There was a meeting held with the top leadership and they voted for LCM.
My brother was working on a film on VP shortly after the public announcement it was LCM. He told me he asked VP several times why he picked LCM. VP would not answer. Finally, when asked again, VP said, "because he doesn't ask how high when I say jump." But it was pretty obvious that VP was not too happy with the choice and did not want to talk about it.
So, from my understanding, if VP had had his way, it would have been Walter. But the leadership had their way instead.
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TheInvisibleDan
Sunesis -
Interesting post. Is it possible that LCM even blackmailed VPW for the position?
Perhaps with some "compromising" photos?
Danny
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danteh1
Mark Sanguinettii might be right on the A$$ kissing part, being the egotistical, womanizing person that he (LCM)is.
And TheInvisibleDan is more than likely closer to the second point about LCM than Loy wants to be known. Where else would he have learned about the fringe benifits that he utilized as MOGFOT. Someone had to show him the ropes, then he used the information to get what he wanted from VPW.
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johniam
Wow! Suneisis' post makes me wonder if LCM wasn't already pimping out his girls to limb and region cordos and they wanted to make sure the goodies kept on coming.
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houseisarockin
I concur.
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A la prochaine
Sunesis,
I would have to agree with you there. I remember being at PFAL '77 and VP had introduced Walter Cummins for a teaching or something and he said in his introduction something like this..."If I had to be replaced today as President of The Way International, this is the man I would get to take my place."
So all the following years, I always thought that Walter Cummins was the man. When I heard that LCM was chosen I nearly fell off my chair.
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lindyhopper
Interesting.
I have never heard about this stuff.
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My3Cents
I was not as close to HQ staffers at the time as Sunesis was. My personal opinion is I would be surprised if vpw allowed himself to get voted down on such an important issue as this. But I've been wrong before [just ask my wife].
This is the kind of stuff I'd love to hear from John Lynn and folks who were there, rather than the goofy doctrinal stuff.
John, if you're listening throw us unbelievers a bone and share a bit of history please.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Walter was the heir apparent when I joined twi in 1975...but Walter lacked the charismatic personality and powerful teaching style. It soon became apparent to me that lcm was positioning himself for the job. Veepee loved lcm's arrogant and loud style...and YES, NOBODY kissed Veepee arse as much as old Loy did. He puckered up every chance he got.
I remember it all very well...Although I was not privy to the conversations that took place amoung the top leaders, I am fairly certain that Veepee made the decision on his own...he was too egotistical to allow someone else to make the selection for him. I also believe that Veepee regretted his decision shortly after kingokie took over...
It was martindale's complete obsession with "athletes of the spirit", I believe, that initially drove a wedge between Veepee and kingokie. Veepee was quoted as bitterly mumbling under his breath, that LCM was spending his whole first year as president dancing around in tights and ignoring the more important duties of his job. It was the AOS doctrine that craiggers used as a springboard to start rewritting twi doctrine and develope his own classes...his goal was to purge all memory of Veepee from twi and establish himself as the great one. Veepee went to his deathbed feeling neglected and ignored by martindale.
I think Wierwille's selection of kingokie illustrates the extremely poor judgement that Veepee used to make his selection. Almost anybody else would have done a better job.
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OnionEater
I also believe Jim Doop was VPW's first pick at one time. ??
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bluesunday
Kudos, huncle hairy! I havent thought about that for a looong time. I met lcm for the first time at roa 1976. I never could understand why I did not like him, aside from the filthy arrogance and mega-ego, I tried to like him but never could get over his love for himself. Just as well, because while I was on the wow field I sent a letter to emporia informing them that I would not be attending 7th corps. I received a letter from lcm stating that if I did not keep my committment then I could expect one of three things: tragic death within a year, admittance to a mental institution, . I cant remember the third spittle-laden word of encouragement.. I wish that I had kept that letter. Do you know the one that I am talking about? Anyway, back to lcm and vpw.."can you hear me in the back"..it is way weird how vpw could make such a boner. Remember live advanced class 1979 in Columbus,OH? lcm was running with a few other heavies from gunnison( I think) to Columbus. Of course they arrived the day before the class began and lcm was carrying the torch in front of the rest. He was so into himself. Ironically, after this two week class I decided to plan my fading away. At the conclusion of the class we all went to the football stadium to have one of those rolling group pictures. Then lcm and some others presented vpw with the love offering: a brand new jet black stretch limo. That is the day that fear took on a new meaning for me. If anyone else was there I would love to hear from them and find out how they responded to his "gift".
bluedaze
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Hope R.
My3Cents insight is right on the money.
Here is what I have heard from a very, very reliable source just a few years ago.
VP apparently had a list of 4 or 5 names who he was considering as candidates to take his place. He showed the list to a trusted few (very few from what I was told). After a year went by, the list was whittled down to LCM & Walter. He showed these two names to these people again, and the majority of them pointed to Walter's name. VP picked LCM in spite of their opinions.
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A la prochaine
Uncle Hairy,
Hahahahahhah....so true!
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Jason P
Actually, in retrospect I wonder if it's such a terrible thing that Loy was picked. Maybe it wouldn't have crashed and burned like it has and many thousands more would be hurt if someone with more ability had taken over.
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George Aar
Come on Blue Sunday,
Fill us in on the rest of the "Black Limo" story. I'd never heard a word of it...
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Watered Garden
Blue Sunday, not to be too picky but the live Advanced Class in 1979 was in Athens, Ohio, not Columbus. Also, I thought the car they took up the collection for was that Lincoln Town Car...?
Love yas
WG
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alfakat
Yep, silver Lincoln Town Car -- washed it at corps week in my Transportation office job more'n once....
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GrouchoMarxJr
Wierwille was always showered with expensive gifts...cars, motorcyles, etc. I recall when we presented him with a Remington statue...one of those cowboy busts that cost PLENTY! We gave it to him at Emporia as a gift from the corps...
For being such a "great servant", he really was waited on hand and foot and treated as royalty...and he ate it up with a spoon!
When LCM took the reins, he could never seem to rise up the to level of "the great one"...he became consumed with jealousy. That is why I believe, that he ran off all the other top leaders from the first few corps...they were his peers and were not in awe of him like they were of Veepee. He tried to purge the ministry of all things that related to Veepee...his classes and books were replaced by LCM's...he chased away anybody who wouldn't bow down and kiss his signet ring (sign the loyalty oath)...he was consumed with being the MOG and wanted everyone to be in awe of him.
It was really sad when you think about it. Wierwille handed this jerk the world on a silver platter...all he had to do was "keep the trains running on time"...instead, he dismantles the 3 main recruitment tools...pfal, the ROA, and the WOW program...brilliant! Then he alienates all the qualified "leadership" and oldtimers and runs them off. Twi then makes the complete metamorphis by changing from, what was originally "there's no strangers at the Way" ministry that focused on salvation, forgiveness and love...to a "ministry" of fear, loathing and manipulation, where "becoming a greasespot by midnight" would be the order for the day. What a moron!
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bluesunday
Thanks, WG. It was in Athens and it was silver. It was so long ago and when I think about it now it all seems so unreal. Do you remember the protesters that were outside the building during the class? vp really chewed their their orifices.
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rascal
Maybe Craig was simply jealous that we weren`t taking up for town cars and motor cycles for him....thus the *no gift* policy was enacted.
Derailmant warning! Kindda kills me to think of alla the millions that they had pouring in at the time.......and yet they still had the nerve to pump us for extra cash for these *love* offerings....
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bluesunday
correction: it was silver, not black..sorry, it has been awhile
BS
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