Many Weirwille loyalists wind up using the "you are speaking ill of the dead" defense in an effort to silence critics of VPW and the early Way which many of those same loyalists feel to be the "good ole days". I find it incredibly odd that way leaders and the more "dedicated" follwers were entirely comfortable commenting negatively ,in public meetings, on someone who died ("their believing wasn't strong enough", "The were out of fellowship", "the let satan in through the hedge of protection") yet its somehow profoundly insulting if people wish to talk about the problems (and there were many) of
VPW. double standard isn't it ?
It wasn't until *after* VPW's death that many people became aware of the cancer, sexual impropriety, and plagiarism so its not like people even had a chance to clear this up since he had already passed. Yet the weirwille preservationist wishes to deny these people the right to ask questions on the basis that it is rude to speak ill of the dead. Nice trick isn't it ? well no not really. It really stinks.
Even while vpw was alive he wasn't open about the nature of his illness or what took place in the back of the motorcoach. He wouldn't engage biblical scholars in discussions (except perhaps in the early days in order to co-opt their knowledge), nor did he volunteer his alleged "expertise" in the holy spirit field to help "outsiders" or even the local community in which he lived. TWI was always a closed shop to outsiders. The point is that engaging vpw in a debate or asking him to explain things in great detail was an impossible task. He wouldn't do these things nor would his suck up yes men even allow it.
So given all this it makes total sense that it was only after vpw's death that one could even begin to conduct anything close to a reasonable analysis of VPW's works (such as they were) and impact on twi.
My ex still doesn't believe that vee pee died of cancer. I told him about it a few years ago and he accused me of lying. He insists that he didn't die of cancer. *shrug*
They're still covering that one up.
When I wanted to get out and we had to go witnessing, the first thing I told people about vee pee was about the snow on the gas pumps. :D--> :D--> That quickly eliminated any interest they might have had in TWI.
When I wanted to get out and we had to go witnessing, the first thing I told people about vee pee was about the snow on the gas pumps. That quickly eliminated any interest they might have had in TWI.
If it weren't for vpw, I never would have learned the slang terms of the late 60s and early 70s for anal sex.
Sir, that information alone was worth the price of the class! Not since the first century had believers been so equipped to serve and glorify God, serve others, and fully manifest the more than abundant life. Aren't we thankful for good ole Dr. V?
If it weren't for Victor Paul Wierwille, with all his human shortcomings, most of us would not know enough about the Bible to argue with or refute his teachings. No man is all good or all bad.
If it weren't for Victor Paul Wierwille, with all his human shortcomings, most of us would not know enough about the Bible to argue with or refute his teachings. No man is all good or all bad.
My God is not that small. If it weren't for Victor Paul Wierwille, my God would have found another way to show me the things I've learned.
If it weren't for Victor Paul Wierwille, with all his human shortcomings, most of us would not know enough about the Bible to argue with or refute his teachings.
If it weren't for Vee Pee, I wouldn't have to know as much about the Bible as I do in order to refute the crap he suckered me into. As Vee Pee put it, it's easier to learn something the correct way first, rather than undo "wrong teaching." It would be much more productive learning something worthwhile than spending so much time with a plunger trying to get his "load" to go where it belongs.
quote:
No man is all good or all bad.
I would beg to differ. Whether Vee Pee fit the all bad classification is a matter of opinion but there are plenty of people throughout history who fit rather nicely.
If it weren't for Victor Paul Wierwille, with all his human shortcomings, most of us would not know enough about the Bible to argue with or refute his teachings. No man is all good or all bad.
My God is not that small. If it weren't for Victor Paul Wierwille, my God would have found another way to show me the things I've learned.
No doubt toad friend no doubt.....but that statement would also apply to David koresh, Jim Jones, Timothy Mcvay, Osama B, Sadam ....you name ANY villian throughout the anals of history and you could appropriatly say....*yeah but they weren`t ALL bad* I`d have to say that vp was plenty bad enough and DOESN`T deserve any respect as a decent human being, not anymore than any other evil doer you care to name.
rascal...I guess there are some folks who just can't let go of the MOG myth...wierwille apologists usually stick their heads up just long enough to demonstrate the long lasting effects that "waybrain" has had on some people.
I don't hold to the "Man of God" myth. I am quite sure that my God is BIG enough ... big enough to do the judging when the time comes.
It has been interesting for me to note here, as well as with my other "now I hate everything about the Way" ex-Way friends that pride themselves on being tolerant ... that they are only tolerant as long as you agree with them. I don't agree with some of you, but many of you seem to just want to attack, not discuss. I am back to lurking for awhile.
Putting VPW in the same category as Osama bin Laden ... wouldn't want to lay that at his feet myself. You do as you wish.
I would say read Karl Kahler's book The Cult that Snapped. Also The Wierwille family, starting with old Papa Ernest was disfunctional, He being an alcoholic and spouse/
child abuser to Emma, Ruben, Otto, Harry, Sevillia, Lydia, and Victor. The last having his father's bad temper, causing him to hide in the nearby woods out of fear(not a protestant
Dunno, like bin laden, vp utilized the authority of God and scriptures to justify his vile deeds. He destroyed many innocent people without compunction .....seems like they have mighty similar charactar flaws to me.
So yeah, I can and DO lay that and worse at his feet....
Toad friend we ARE talking, we simply aren`t saying what you want us to say.....that`s no reason to go back into lurking :-(
I can be tolerant of you and your beliefs, but I hope you don't mind if I disagree with you on this one.
The "we all sin" argument comes up from time to time. Sure, we all sin -- but Wierwille lived in sin, it was habitual and ingrained.
Adultery? He pursued the young women he wanted to molest. He sometimes used others to procure these women for him. He made it a habit to stay in his motorcoach at Headquarters so that he could freely carry out his indiscretions under the nose of his wife. People who protested were often maligned and kicked out.
Drunkenness? His drinking was legendary.
Lying? He invented the hook shot, could've been an executive at A. B. Dick, a Doctor of Theology, snow on the gaspumps.
Stealing? Plagiarism, slave labor, using ministry money for his personal "needs" while requiring everyone else to sacrifice all but bare subsistence.
Even the Bible that Wierwille held to be The Word of God says that he was not qualified to be a leader of the church, because of his sins. Not because he was human like the rest of us, but because he was inhuman. See, even God doesn't look upon every sin the same. That was another of Wierwille's lies.
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def59
If it weren't for vpw, I never would have learned the slang terms of the late 60s and early 70s for anal sex.
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diazbro
Many Weirwille loyalists wind up using the "you are speaking ill of the dead" defense in an effort to silence critics of VPW and the early Way which many of those same loyalists feel to be the "good ole days". I find it incredibly odd that way leaders and the more "dedicated" follwers were entirely comfortable commenting negatively ,in public meetings, on someone who died ("their believing wasn't strong enough", "The were out of fellowship", "the let satan in through the hedge of protection") yet its somehow profoundly insulting if people wish to talk about the problems (and there were many) of
VPW. double standard isn't it ?
It wasn't until *after* VPW's death that many people became aware of the cancer, sexual impropriety, and plagiarism so its not like people even had a chance to clear this up since he had already passed. Yet the weirwille preservationist wishes to deny these people the right to ask questions on the basis that it is rude to speak ill of the dead. Nice trick isn't it ? well no not really. It really stinks.
Even while vpw was alive he wasn't open about the nature of his illness or what took place in the back of the motorcoach. He wouldn't engage biblical scholars in discussions (except perhaps in the early days in order to co-opt their knowledge), nor did he volunteer his alleged "expertise" in the holy spirit field to help "outsiders" or even the local community in which he lived. TWI was always a closed shop to outsiders. The point is that engaging vpw in a debate or asking him to explain things in great detail was an impossible task. He wouldn't do these things nor would his suck up yes men even allow it.
So given all this it makes total sense that it was only after vpw's death that one could even begin to conduct anything close to a reasonable analysis of VPW's works (such as they were) and impact on twi.
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Belle
My ex still doesn't believe that vee pee died of cancer. I told him about it a few years ago and he accused me of lying. He insists that he didn't die of cancer. *shrug*
They're still covering that one up.
When I wanted to get out and we had to go witnessing, the first thing I told people about vee pee was about the snow on the gas pumps.
:D--> 
:D--> That quickly eliminated any interest they might have had in TWI.
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Bob
Belle, maybe you should send him a copy of his death certificate:
:D-->
WIERWILLE'S CERTIFICATE OF DEATH
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Ham
Snort, ha ha ha ha ha..
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WeWereScammed
Sir, that information alone was worth the price of the class! Not since the first century had believers been so equipped to serve and glorify God, serve others, and fully manifest the more than abundant life. Aren't we thankful for good ole Dr. V?
Learning is an exciting adventure
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GrouchoMarxJr
quote: "If it weren't for vpw, I never would have learned the slang terms of the late 60's and early 70's for anal sex"
...If it weren't for vpw, A lot of people would not have HAD anal sex.
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ToadFriend
If it weren't for Victor Paul Wierwille, with all his human shortcomings, most of us would not know enough about the Bible to argue with or refute his teachings. No man is all good or all bad.
TF
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oldiesman
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Raf
My God is not that small. If it weren't for Victor Paul Wierwille, my God would have found another way to show me the things I've learned.
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Bob
If it weren't for Vee Pee, I wouldn't have to know as much about the Bible as I do in order to refute the crap he suckered me into. As Vee Pee put it, it's easier to learn something the correct way first, rather than undo "wrong teaching." It would be much more productive learning something worthwhile than spending so much time with a plunger trying to get his "load" to go where it belongs.
I would beg to differ. Whether Vee Pee fit the all bad classification is a matter of opinion but there are plenty of people throughout history who fit rather nicely.
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WordWolf
TF,
to quote vpw,
"If my God was as small as your God,
I'd get me a new God."
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Steve!
You ask who was Victor Paul Wierwille?
Why, he was docvic(praise be his name).
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def59
Actually he taught that being a mogfot was being a pain in the as*
;)-->
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GrouchoMarxJr
You tell me what you think of victor paul wierwille, and I'll tell you how far you have come in your cult recovery...
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rascal
No doubt toad friend no doubt.....but that statement would also apply to David koresh, Jim Jones, Timothy Mcvay, Osama B, Sadam ....you name ANY villian throughout the anals of history and you could appropriatly say....*yeah but they weren`t ALL bad* I`d have to say that vp was plenty bad enough and DOESN`T deserve any respect as a decent human being, not anymore than any other evil doer you care to name.
He was about as viscious as they come.
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GrouchoMarxJr
rascal...I guess there are some folks who just can't let go of the MOG myth...wierwille apologists usually stick their heads up just long enough to demonstrate the long lasting effects that "waybrain" has had on some people.
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ToadFriend
I don't hold to the "Man of God" myth. I am quite sure that my God is BIG enough ... big enough to do the judging when the time comes.
It has been interesting for me to note here, as well as with my other "now I hate everything about the Way" ex-Way friends that pride themselves on being tolerant ... that they are only tolerant as long as you agree with them. I don't agree with some of you, but many of you seem to just want to attack, not discuss. I am back to lurking for awhile.
Putting VPW in the same category as Osama bin Laden ... wouldn't want to lay that at his feet myself. You do as you wish.
TF
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
I would say read Karl Kahler's book The Cult that Snapped. Also The Wierwille family, starting with old Papa Ernest was disfunctional, He being an alcoholic and spouse/
child abuser to Emma, Ruben, Otto, Harry, Sevillia, Lydia, and Victor. The last having his father's bad temper, causing him to hide in the nearby woods out of fear(not a protestant
St. Francis of Assisi in Whiteside's book).
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rascal
Dunno, like bin laden, vp utilized the authority of God and scriptures to justify his vile deeds. He destroyed many innocent people without compunction .....seems like they have mighty similar charactar flaws to me.
So yeah, I can and DO lay that and worse at his feet....
Toad friend we ARE talking, we simply aren`t saying what you want us to say.....that`s no reason to go back into lurking :-(
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WeWereScammed
Freudian slip?
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rascal
hee hee ...oops
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shazdancer
Dear ToadFriend,
I can be tolerant of you and your beliefs, but I hope you don't mind if I disagree with you on this one.
The "we all sin" argument comes up from time to time. Sure, we all sin -- but Wierwille lived in sin, it was habitual and ingrained.
Adultery? He pursued the young women he wanted to molest. He sometimes used others to procure these women for him. He made it a habit to stay in his motorcoach at Headquarters so that he could freely carry out his indiscretions under the nose of his wife. People who protested were often maligned and kicked out.
Drunkenness? His drinking was legendary.
Lying? He invented the hook shot, could've been an executive at A. B. Dick, a Doctor of Theology, snow on the gaspumps.
Stealing? Plagiarism, slave labor, using ministry money for his personal "needs" while requiring everyone else to sacrifice all but bare subsistence.
Even the Bible that Wierwille held to be The Word of God says that he was not qualified to be a leader of the church, because of his sins. Not because he was human like the rest of us, but because he was inhuman. See, even God doesn't look upon every sin the same. That was another of Wierwille's lies.
Regards,
Shaz
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Second James
Hey...without VPW...where would Kareem Abdul Jabbar have ended up (without the "hook shot"?) Sure as hell not sitting on the bench!
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