I don`t know that you were anymore serious about learning the truth back then than you are today.....You demand first hand accounts and confirmatory details from people here....and when accomodated..... you summarily dismiss them .........maybe VF had had enough of arguing with people by that point....
It would seem that there were enough details for tens of thousands of people to make an informed decision as to the wisdom or Godliness of absolute loyalty/obediance to lcm....the subsequent history of the 90s with the scandals and lawsuits, the destruction of families and lives.....has shown them to be correct in their decision....there is no excuse for you not to have come to the same conclusion....it almost sounds like you want to blame vf for you personally not cottoning on a little sooner....
LCM had charted a course of destruction for himself and the ministry that NOBODY but he could have altered.
Lifted, if you are speaking of our interactions, nobody owes you anymore details than they are willing to give....
It would be unconscionable for me or anyone to give out the names and details of a story that was not theirs personally to share without the individuals permission, no matter how importuned to satisfy somebody`s curiosity....
As far as Vince being unwilling to give details...maybe it involved innocent parties, maybe his information was not his to share....maybe he hoped that folks thought enough of his integrety and decades of service, to consider warnings on those merrits alone. Maybe he figured that those with *ears to hear* would....
It is like a guy is trying to warn everybody that there is a train coming full speed, He has *heard* the whistle blow, he tells folks he can *feel* the ground rumble with it`s approach....he points out the descending crossing gates, the flashing lights, the bells clanging madly......and there are STILL a bunch of folks obstinatly standing in the middle of the tracks, arms crossed feet planted, stubbornly demanding more specifics on the engine number, the number of cars, what color is the caboose, passenger or freight.........short of physically dragging them unwillingly off the tracks....there isn`t a whole one can do.
Rascal: "Maybe Vince felt that it would be a waste of time to try to convince you of anything."
oldiesman:
"If he thought that, he was wrong."
I don`t know that you were anymore serious about learning the truth back then than you are today.....You demand first hand accounts and confirmatory details from people here....and when accomodated..... you summarily dismiss them .........maybe VF had had enough of arguing with people by that point....
It would seem that there were enough details for tens of thousands of people to make an informed decision as to the wisdom or Godliness of absolute loyalty/obediance to lcm....the subsequent history of the 90s with the scandals and lawsuits, the destruction of families and lives.....has shown them to be correct in their decision....there is no excuse for you not to have come to the same conclusion....it almost sounds like you want to blame vf for you personally not cottoning on a little sooner....
LCM had charted a course of destruction for himself and the ministry that NOBODY but he could have altered.
We had 15 pages on the old thread,
and we're up to 9 pages so far on this thread,
and Oldiesman has yet to even acknowledge that those
who knew better than him
(or that there were people who DID know better)
were RIGHT in leaving.
So, rascal,
the evidence supports your comment that
even if Oldiesman had been presented with
DNA evidence, he's keeping to his current
position.
Once again, for everyone who left:
History proved us right!
Justify your FAILURE to get out earlier all you want. I'm glad I left in 1989 and I'd do it again.
And as you said before,
it's understandable if people back then didn't know enough to
understand that leaving was the only sensible option.
It's foolishness for them to STILL say it was the only
sensible option.
And finally,
I say,
anyone who was at ROA '89 and STILL stayed after
5 days of the Dog and Pony Show was either
blind or
a fool.
A LOT of people left IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING ROA '89.
Glad you like 'em Oldiesman. As far as people making constructive efforts to communicate with the BOT at that time, we've been over this ground before. Quite a few people did. Many people waited and worked towards recovery for 2, 3, 4 years, even more. Ultimately you had to make some decisions, IMO. Are these men and women running this thing out of New Knoxville trustworthy? Honest? Capable? You had to decide how much more you wanted to invest in trying to make it work with them. If you'd been ignored or rebuffed that certainly didn't go far towards building trust.
I didn't trust them, or Geer. The BOT"s showed very quickly what they were made of, IMO. Geer was just a bone head, I don't know how to put it exactly. He'd always been nice to me and my wife, for the most part, and had his moments when he was a decent guy to be around. But be was in some kind of zombie-zone where he filtered everything through a kind of hyper-active interpretation of "principles" that were so shallow and inflexible he didn't really seem to understand how to simply live.
The results played out over the next few years, as Raf and others point out. It's really very simple on the face of it. Looking at myself, I didn't end up going the route Craig did. Things changed, but I was prepared for it. I knew where I was going and what I wanted to do. Change can be difficult but I didn't lash out at the world, my friends, close associates. I'm not trying to sound self-righteous here but I didn't go dead-stick with my whole life as a result of any of this. I had a life, a family and a brain.
It was time for change. Craig didn't see that. He wanted support and asked for it. He wanted people to be nice to him, to keep on keepin' on. He would have been better offering support and giving it. That's a lesson I learned. Don't try to tell people what to do for you, do what you can for people and let the chips fall where they will, they're going to anyway no matter what you do. Failing isn't the end of the world, it's really an opportunity to try again, hard though it may be. I think we've all seen where that led to for the Way Mnistry and it's "leadership".
It was clear to me in 1987 that it was time to hit the happy trail...
...I realize that many folks didn't find out what was going on for some time after that...
...What strikes me is that Martindale was extremely insecure. Before his loyalty letter, he had twig coordinators all over the country filling out their "blue forms", which now included a category of "who's faithful and who isn't", in every twig. I flat out refused to fill that part out...They told me that I couldn't be a twig coordinator anymore... :P . I left shortly after that. It seems that Martindale was preoccupied with whether people were loyal to HIM or not...He was hung up on it. He remembered the way that people worshipped Veepee and he wanted the same...Being president of twi wasn't good enough for king okie...he wanted to be worshipped! He wanted people to scurry behind him, kissing his foot. He wanted to be the guy who was ALWAYS right. The main man, the honcho, the chosen one...when in reality, he was a horses foot.
What strikes me is that Martindale was extremely insecure. Before his loyalty letter, he had twig coordinators all over the country filling out their "blue forms", which now included a category of "who's faithful and who isn't"
Groucho.. I never saw that.. not that I'm doubting you. I thought I filled in some blue forms in the early nineties.. and can't remember anything like that.. was this incorporated for just a few years?
What I DO remember.. they DID NOT LIKE money coming in anonomously..
I never saw any forms that the branch guy had to fill out.. sure there was a lot more there..
loy sounds like he turned into Stalin.. carefully measuring who may or may not be a "threat"..
Lifted, if you are speaking of our interactions, nobody owes you anymore details than they are willing to give....
Rascal, you are right. Nobody [/i]owes me anything. As I just got done noting on another thread, trusting with very personal details is hard enough to do with someone you know...let alone with an internet handle. I hear a lot about internet hanky panky in the world, relating to people who know each other only on an anonymous basis through cyberspace. We've even had a little of it over the years on Waydale/GS. Nobody owes me their trust and belief, and I shouldnt expect it.
But that trust of course works both ways.
BTW< I am thinking that your earlier post, though not directly addressed, was directed at Oldies. I can't and won't speak for him. But I have not dismissed anyone's first hand account, as far as I know. In fact, I have ahd some occasional success in learning about abuse in TWI, starting right off the bat when I first became involved in Waydale almost 6 years ago.
Ex - your Halloween avatar- that is scary and FUNNY - cleaning coffee off monitor. LOL
Question - if you follow oldies premise that it was right for the Loymeister to demand unquestioning obedience - why was it necessary for Craiggers to trash and shred the reputations of those who wouldn't give their loyalty. I would have had much more respect for the Craiggers if he had just accepted the fact that so and so chose not to pen the loyalty oath and then he (Craiggers) moved on with his "desire" to move the Word over the World.
Instead he chose to crucify them morally, spiritually, reputation wise etc. And he did it many nights from the pulpit in the WOW auditorium. I was there, I heard many times - Why was that necessary, Oldies? Honest question here. If it wasn't all about Craig - I don't see the need to do this.
To clarify that, I meant specifically being trusted to be believable...just like the question of me being trusted with personal details of someone's life.
This has probably been hashed out here before, but I would say that LCM was having his mass firing party to take the heat off of himself...whether or not he understood what he was doing. Also, I have found that those who are waist-high in sin are usually the biggest finger-pointers. They have a knack for noticing the same sins in others - only in others, the sin seems much more magnified than in their own lives. It is such a shame because I know there were a lot of wounds from the ordeal. We can take heart that God has better plans for those who "got out" by being forced out by LCM. God has his plan for us all, of that I am sure.
They have a knack for noticing the same sins in others - only in others, the sin seems much more magnified than in their own lives.
Isn't it interesting that perhaps his most infamous witch hunt was for "homos" and "homo fantasizers" then? You were out by that point, but it was rediculous the extremes to which he went on about that.
Also, I have found that those who are waist-high in sin are usually the biggest finger-pointers. They have a knack for noticing the same sins in others - only in others, the sin seems much more magnified than in their own lives.
I agree with you on that. And, as a corollary, the biggest finger pointers are, logically, spending a lot of time doing it, leaving less time for God in their lives.
I agree with it as a general statement...I see plenty of it (we probably all do)...although I wont argue about it applying specifically in this case.
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oldiesman
That's all for me today folks.
Have a great weekend
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rascal
I don`t know that you were anymore serious about learning the truth back then than you are today.....You demand first hand accounts and confirmatory details from people here....and when accomodated..... you summarily dismiss them .........maybe VF had had enough of arguing with people by that point....
It would seem that there were enough details for tens of thousands of people to make an informed decision as to the wisdom or Godliness of absolute loyalty/obediance to lcm....the subsequent history of the 90s with the scandals and lawsuits, the destruction of families and lives.....has shown them to be correct in their decision....there is no excuse for you not to have come to the same conclusion....it almost sounds like you want to blame vf for you personally not cottoning on a little sooner....
LCM had charted a course of destruction for himself and the ministry that NOBODY but he could have altered.
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Raf
Once again, for everyone who left:
History proved us right!
Justify your FAILURE to get out earlier all you want. I'm glad I left in 1989 and I'd do it again.
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rascal
Lifted, if you are speaking of our interactions, nobody owes you anymore details than they are willing to give....
It would be unconscionable for me or anyone to give out the names and details of a story that was not theirs personally to share without the individuals permission, no matter how importuned to satisfy somebody`s curiosity....
As far as Vince being unwilling to give details...maybe it involved innocent parties, maybe his information was not his to share....maybe he hoped that folks thought enough of his integrety and decades of service, to consider warnings on those merrits alone. Maybe he figured that those with *ears to hear* would....
It is like a guy is trying to warn everybody that there is a train coming full speed, He has *heard* the whistle blow, he tells folks he can *feel* the ground rumble with it`s approach....he points out the descending crossing gates, the flashing lights, the bells clanging madly......and there are STILL a bunch of folks obstinatly standing in the middle of the tracks, arms crossed feet planted, stubbornly demanding more specifics on the engine number, the number of cars, what color is the caboose, passenger or freight.........short of physically dragging them unwillingly off the tracks....there isn`t a whole one can do.
Sometimes you just give up and walk away.
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WordWolf
Rascal: "Maybe Vince felt that it would be a waste of time to try to convince you of anything."
oldiesman:
"If he thought that, he was wrong."
We had 15 pages on the old thread,
and we're up to 9 pages so far on this thread,
and Oldiesman has yet to even acknowledge that those
who knew better than him
(or that there were people who DID know better)
were RIGHT in leaving.
So, rascal,
the evidence supports your comment that
even if Oldiesman had been presented with
DNA evidence, he's keeping to his current
position.
And as you said before,
it's understandable if people back then didn't know enough to
understand that leaving was the only sensible option.
It's foolishness for them to STILL say it was the only
sensible option.
And finally,
I say,
anyone who was at ROA '89 and STILL stayed after
5 days of the Dog and Pony Show was either
blind or
a fool.
A LOT of people left IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING ROA '89.
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socks
Glad you like 'em Oldiesman. As far as people making constructive efforts to communicate with the BOT at that time, we've been over this ground before. Quite a few people did. Many people waited and worked towards recovery for 2, 3, 4 years, even more. Ultimately you had to make some decisions, IMO. Are these men and women running this thing out of New Knoxville trustworthy? Honest? Capable? You had to decide how much more you wanted to invest in trying to make it work with them. If you'd been ignored or rebuffed that certainly didn't go far towards building trust.
I didn't trust them, or Geer. The BOT"s showed very quickly what they were made of, IMO. Geer was just a bone head, I don't know how to put it exactly. He'd always been nice to me and my wife, for the most part, and had his moments when he was a decent guy to be around. But be was in some kind of zombie-zone where he filtered everything through a kind of hyper-active interpretation of "principles" that were so shallow and inflexible he didn't really seem to understand how to simply live.
The results played out over the next few years, as Raf and others point out. It's really very simple on the face of it. Looking at myself, I didn't end up going the route Craig did. Things changed, but I was prepared for it. I knew where I was going and what I wanted to do. Change can be difficult but I didn't lash out at the world, my friends, close associates. I'm not trying to sound self-righteous here but I didn't go dead-stick with my whole life as a result of any of this. I had a life, a family and a brain.
It was time for change. Craig didn't see that. He wanted support and asked for it. He wanted people to be nice to him, to keep on keepin' on. He would have been better offering support and giving it. That's a lesson I learned. Don't try to tell people what to do for you, do what you can for people and let the chips fall where they will, they're going to anyway no matter what you do. Failing isn't the end of the world, it's really an opportunity to try again, hard though it may be. I think we've all seen where that led to for the Way Mnistry and it's "leadership".
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excathedra
and you had to ask yourself, were they ever ?
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Abigail
"What other gods were/are they worshipping? Who are they? Name them.
Be specific.
Don Wierwille was an administrator. Who did he worship, the Administrator God? "
How about money, power, greed, lust, fear (of being exposed for what they truly are).
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GrouchoMarxJr
It was clear to me in 1987 that it was time to hit the happy trail...
...I realize that many folks didn't find out what was going on for some time after that...
...What strikes me is that Martindale was extremely insecure. Before his loyalty letter, he had twig coordinators all over the country filling out their "blue forms", which now included a category of "who's faithful and who isn't", in every twig. I flat out refused to fill that part out...They told me that I couldn't be a twig coordinator anymore... :P . I left shortly after that. It seems that Martindale was preoccupied with whether people were loyal to HIM or not...He was hung up on it. He remembered the way that people worshipped Veepee and he wanted the same...Being president of twi wasn't good enough for king okie...he wanted to be worshipped! He wanted people to scurry behind him, kissing his foot. He wanted to be the guy who was ALWAYS right. The main man, the honcho, the chosen one...when in reality, he was a horses foot.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
and may i add
still is?!
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Ham
Groucho.. I never saw that.. not that I'm doubting you. I thought I filled in some blue forms in the early nineties.. and can't remember anything like that.. was this incorporated for just a few years?
What I DO remember.. they DID NOT LIKE money coming in anonomously..
I never saw any forms that the branch guy had to fill out.. sure there was a lot more there..
loy sounds like he turned into Stalin.. carefully measuring who may or may not be a "threat"..
Then came the purges..
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Lifted Up
Rascal, you are right. Nobody [/i]owes me anything. As I just got done noting on another thread, trusting with very personal details is hard enough to do with someone you know...let alone with an internet handle. I hear a lot about internet hanky panky in the world, relating to people who know each other only on an anonymous basis through cyberspace. We've even had a little of it over the years on Waydale/GS. Nobody owes me their trust and belief, and I shouldnt expect it.
But that trust of course works both ways.
BTW< I am thinking that your earlier post, though not directly addressed, was directed at Oldies. I can't and won't speak for him. But I have not dismissed anyone's first hand account, as far as I know. In fact, I have ahd some occasional success in learning about abuse in TWI, starting right off the bat when I first became involved in Waydale almost 6 years ago.
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rascal
You are correct lifted ....my observation was addressed to oldies...
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outofdafog
Ex - your Halloween avatar- that is scary and FUNNY - cleaning coffee off monitor. LOL
Question - if you follow oldies premise that it was right for the Loymeister to demand unquestioning obedience - why was it necessary for Craiggers to trash and shred the reputations of those who wouldn't give their loyalty. I would have had much more respect for the Craiggers if he had just accepted the fact that so and so chose not to pen the loyalty oath and then he (Craiggers) moved on with his "desire" to move the Word over the World.
Instead he chose to crucify them morally, spiritually, reputation wise etc. And he did it many nights from the pulpit in the WOW auditorium. I was there, I heard many times - Why was that necessary, Oldies? Honest question here. If it wasn't all about Craig - I don't see the need to do this.
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Lifted Up
To clarify that, I meant specifically being trusted to be believable...just like the question of me being trusted with personal details of someone's life.
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karateka
This has probably been hashed out here before, but I would say that LCM was having his mass firing party to take the heat off of himself...whether or not he understood what he was doing. Also, I have found that those who are waist-high in sin are usually the biggest finger-pointers. They have a knack for noticing the same sins in others - only in others, the sin seems much more magnified than in their own lives. It is such a shame because I know there were a lot of wounds from the ordeal. We can take heart that God has better plans for those who "got out" by being forced out by LCM. God has his plan for us all, of that I am sure.
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Nato
Isn't it interesting that perhaps his most infamous witch hunt was for "homos" and "homo fantasizers" then? You were out by that point, but it was rediculous the extremes to which he went on about that.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Nato...I have been of the opinion for some time now, that Martindale is probably a homosexual.
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Lifted Up
I agree with you on that. And, as a corollary, the biggest finger pointers are, logically, spending a lot of time doing it, leaving less time for God in their lives.
I agree with it as a general statement...I see plenty of it (we probably all do)...although I wont argue about it applying specifically in this case.
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