VPW to some has become their god. Is he really to worhipped, praised and prayed to?
I feel sorry for anyone who believes that everbody should know that VPW was just a man he had error and mistakes. That would be the same as worshipping an idol.
Agreed: I don't really know how his image was communicated to new people who came to TWI after his death, but while I was in (70's, early 80's) we knew to respect him as the President and Founder, and as the teacher, but not worship. I think you can respect someone's position without resorting to the worship level that other group's demand. We gave the glory to God.
If people "worshipped" VP, then they probably worshipped Rocky Road ice cream, too. It would have made as much sense.
Never heard that the MOG was to be worshipped. Whether some individuals do--I can't answer to that--but this is one malfiescence that I don't feel can be laid at VPW, LCM or RR's doorstep
We were told not to worship them (MOG's). Look what we had to do though and what was said about them. The MOG said this or that. The MOG did this or that. We were supposed to look at their lives and follow what they did as an example. At twigs there were pictures of the BOT to look at. Never did see a picture of Jesus at a twig, did you? We were supposed to follow the MOG's instructions to the letter. If not we were out of fellowship. Free to do our own research and send it to HQ for consideration and for them to look at and atleast consider even if it was contrary to what they said? Nope you were more than likley kicked out for thinking for yourself.
So yes the MOG's said not to worship them but look how they were treated and demanded to be treated and how we were to hang on to their word. So yes I really think it was and still is a state or worship.
So yes Mickey, I think 2 out of the three things you said happened. I think he was worshipped and praised. He probaly would have perferred to be prayed to if he thought he could get away with it.
I think the relationship, if you really want to break it down, was that VP was the prophet of the most high god and his apostle. While he wasn't god, he spoke for god. The words coming out of his mouth were the same as the words coming out of the mouth of god. Therefore, while one didn't "worship" the mog, adhering to the mog's words were regarded as adhering to the words of god...and, conversely, disobedience to or disregarding the words of the mog, would be akin to disregarding the word of god.
So maybe worship is not the correct word here...maybe venerate would be a better word.
VPW to some has become their god. Is he really to worhipped, praised and prayed to?
Welcome to GSCAFE Mickey.
I don't think anyone worshipped VPW or prayed to him. But imo many praised him, and many idolized him imo. Check out these definitions, I highlighted what sadly sounds familiar to me;
I think the relationship, if you really want to break it down, was that VP was the prophet of the most high god and his apostle. While he wasn't god, he spoke for god. The words coming out of his mouth were the same as the words coming out of the mouth of god. Therefore, while one didn't "worship" the mog, adhering to the mog's words were regarded as adhering to the words of god...and, conversely, disobedience to or disregarding the words of the mog, would be akin to disregarding the word of god.
So maybe worship is not the correct word here...maybe venerate would be a better word.
Let's not forget vpw pushing the now-famous saying that
"the suggestion of a general is tantamount to a command"
and suggesting that this applied to him as well.
(Otherwise, there was no relevance to the quote...)
He WANTED the veneration. He WANTED the special treatment.
Though never observed outright VPW was worshipped indirectly. Any reference to his books or classes – which every legitimateTWI teaching should contain – paid homage to this man. I don’t believe anyone ever considered him to be God Almighty – but do think many viewed him as the gateway…the mediator…the high priest between God and man – where he was the focal point for any issue. What did he say about this verse, what does he think of me, I want him to pray for me, what would he do in my situation, etc. And so the attention and concern fixates on him for “deliverance” and love [worship and service] is rendered back to him out of gratitude.
Ezekiel 14:7 talks about people separating themselves from God and setting up idols in the heart. VPW-defenders balk at the suggestion of him being an idol – saying “we don’t pray to him or worship him.” Yet people bought into his manipulative self-serving version of God Almighty and let his persona captivate their hearts.
But with parades in his honor, titles lke da mog, "doctor", adherence to his "research" like it was the hand of God itself, and such, I think it was a close second to worship.
VPW to some has become their god. Is he really to worhipped, praised and prayed to?
I agree with the majority here, there was no open 'worship' so much as verneration. But on many occasions I personally heard people say "What would Doctor do in this situation?" in stead of "What would Jesus or Christ do in this situation?" They were never corrected by the closest MOG in the area.
Perhaps this was done out of respect. After all he was a living example of how to walk and one who could be imitated...? (Ok nobody barf!! )
After I left I heard of at least one childrens fellowship where the children were being taught to pray in the name of Cr@ig M@rtind@le in stead of Jesus Christ. And once I actually saw a photo of a bunch of children actually bowing to LCM! It made me sick!
IMHO: I think he tried to establish an absolute monarchy under the guise of Christianity...and he came really close to succeeding...for a period of time. Thank God for all of those who have helped dismantle it or at least cripple it!
There were good things.....no doubt; but it was due to the hearts of the men and the women who walked in love and were truly god hungry. Love cannot come from where it did not exist or be given in ways it did not exist. That to me is how and why we were decieved!
Perhaps for a staunch mog lover. Every "vile" accusation of their beloved leader just is too much, too much pain. Opens just another unhealed, painful wound, full of pus and poison.
Some will follow him all the way down a hole under the fountain. In clear light of glaring plagiarim, abuse, rape and worse, defend him to the death- "well, sumthin good came out of it, didn't it?"
I'll modify my first post. I think SOME people worshipped vic, the ground he walked on, worship his works like they are God himself, and even worship the ground he's buried in.
All of this, even over twenty years after his death.
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ckmkeon
I feel sorry for anyone who believes that everbody should know that VPW was just a man he had error and mistakes. That would be the same as worshipping an idol.
godbless
ckmckeon
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George Aar
If I may, he was not "just a man", he was "just a CONman".
The fact that he chose to peddle religion rather than snakeoil should do nothing to mitigate that reality...
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rascal
He was a MAN who used scripture as his weapon of choice to steal, to kill, and to destroy :(
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outofdafog
Just to be accurate here, I never prayed to or in the name of VPW.............nor was I ever taught that...
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topoftheworld
Agreed: I don't really know how his image was communicated to new people who came to TWI after his death, but while I was in (70's, early 80's) we knew to respect him as the President and Founder, and as the teacher, but not worship. I think you can respect someone's position without resorting to the worship level that other group's demand. We gave the glory to God.
If people "worshipped" VP, then they probably worshipped Rocky Road ice cream, too. It would have made as much sense.
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templelady
Never heard that the MOG was to be worshipped. Whether some individuals do--I can't answer to that--but this is one malfiescence that I don't feel can be laid at VPW, LCM or RR's doorstep
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justloafing
We were told not to worship them (MOG's). Look what we had to do though and what was said about them. The MOG said this or that. The MOG did this or that. We were supposed to look at their lives and follow what they did as an example. At twigs there were pictures of the BOT to look at. Never did see a picture of Jesus at a twig, did you? We were supposed to follow the MOG's instructions to the letter. If not we were out of fellowship. Free to do our own research and send it to HQ for consideration and for them to look at and atleast consider even if it was contrary to what they said? Nope you were more than likley kicked out for thinking for yourself.
So yes the MOG's said not to worship them but look how they were treated and demanded to be treated and how we were to hang on to their word. So yes I really think it was and still is a state or worship.
So yes Mickey, I think 2 out of the three things you said happened. I think he was worshipped and praised. He probaly would have perferred to be prayed to if he thought he could get away with it.
Edited by justloafingLink to comment
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markomalley
I think the relationship, if you really want to break it down, was that VP was the prophet of the most high god and his apostle. While he wasn't god, he spoke for god. The words coming out of his mouth were the same as the words coming out of the mouth of god. Therefore, while one didn't "worship" the mog, adhering to the mog's words were regarded as adhering to the words of god...and, conversely, disobedience to or disregarding the words of the mog, would be akin to disregarding the word of god.
So maybe worship is not the correct word here...maybe venerate would be a better word.
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allan w.
I sometimes referred to him as Pope Victor.
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ChasUFarley
Good assessment, markomalley....
I always said the real trinity was God, VPW (or LCM - take your pick), and Jesus Christ....
In THAT order!
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johniam
The suffering never ends.
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Outin88.
Welcome to GSCAFE Mickey.
I don't think anyone worshipped VPW or prayed to him. But imo many praised him, and many idolized him imo. Check out these definitions, I highlighted what sadly sounds familiar to me;
http://www.allwords.com/word-idolize.html
idolize
idolise
verb idolized, idolizing
1. To love, honour, admire, etc someone or something too much.
Thesaurus: worship, adore, reverence, venerate, deify, admire, dote on, exalt, glorify, lionize, love, revere; Antonym: vilify.
2. To make an idol of someone or something.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&oi=...=define:idolize
Definitions of idolize on the Web:
love unquestioningly and uncritically or to excess; venerate as an idol; "Many teenagers idolized the Beatles"
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&oi=...n&q=define:idol
Definitions of idol on the Web:
a material effigy that is worshipped; "thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image"; "money was his god"
someone who is adored blindly and excessively
paragon: an ideal instance; a perfect embodiment of a concept
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/idol
i·dol (dl)
n.
1.
a. An image used as an object of worship.
b. A false god.
2. One that is adored, often blindly or excessively.
3. Something visible but without substance.
Edited by Outin88.Link to comment
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Bolshevik
vpw is not a cheese doodle
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waysider
Just for the record, I never kissed his ring------------
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WordWolf
Let's not forget vpw pushing the now-famous saying that
"the suggestion of a general is tantamount to a command"
and suggesting that this applied to him as well.
(Otherwise, there was no relevance to the quote...)
He WANTED the veneration. He WANTED the special treatment.
He set about to accomplish this, and succeeded.
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T-Bone
Though never observed outright VPW was worshipped indirectly. Any reference to his books or classes – which every legitimate TWI teaching should contain – paid homage to this man. I don’t believe anyone ever considered him to be God Almighty – but do think many viewed him as the gateway…the mediator…the high priest between God and man – where he was the focal point for any issue. What did he say about this verse, what does he think of me, I want him to pray for me, what would he do in my situation, etc. And so the attention and concern fixates on him for “deliverance” and love [worship and service] is rendered back to him out of gratitude.
Ezekiel 14:7 talks about people separating themselves from God and setting up idols in the heart. VPW-defenders balk at the suggestion of him being an idol – saying “we don’t pray to him or worship him.” Yet people bought into his manipulative self-serving version of God Almighty and let his persona captivate their hearts.
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Ham
Well, I wouldn't say worshipped, exactly.
But with parades in his honor, titles lke da mog, "doctor", adherence to his "research" like it was the hand of God itself, and such, I think it was a close second to worship.
Maybe you should publish a book. "vp is NOT God".
It would start no small furor in some circles..
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Eyesopen
I agree with the majority here, there was no open 'worship' so much as verneration. But on many occasions I personally heard people say "What would Doctor do in this situation?" in stead of "What would Jesus or Christ do in this situation?" They were never corrected by the closest MOG in the area.
Perhaps this was done out of respect. After all he was a living example of how to walk and one who could be imitated...? (Ok nobody barf!!
)
After I left I heard of at least one childrens fellowship where the children were being taught to pray in the name of Cr@ig M@rtind@le in stead of Jesus Christ. And once I actually saw a photo of a bunch of children actually bowing to LCM! It made me sick!
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RainbowsGirl
IMHO: I think he tried to establish an absolute monarchy under the guise of Christianity...and he came really close to succeeding...for a period of time. Thank God for all of those who have helped dismantle it or at least cripple it!
There were good things.....no doubt; but it was due to the hearts of the men and the women who walked in love and were truly god hungry. Love cannot come from where it did not exist or be given in ways it did not exist. That to me is how and why we were decieved!
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Ham
Perhaps for a staunch mog lover. Every "vile" accusation of their beloved leader just is too much, too much pain. Opens just another unhealed, painful wound, full of pus and poison.
Some will follow him all the way down a hole under the fountain. In clear light of glaring plagiarim, abuse, rape and worse, defend him to the death- "well, sumthin good came out of it, didn't it?"
I'll modify my first post. I think SOME people worshipped vic, the ground he walked on, worship his works like they are God himself, and even worship the ground he's buried in.
All of this, even over twenty years after his death.
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Ham
I don't think I have any open sores left. I may have some scars. Heck, I'll even show them and swap stories..
"And I got THIS one tangling with a certain saber-toothed region coordinator.."
Edited by Mr. HammeroniLink to comment
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Eyesopen
Your fur covers them so well.
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excathedra
sometimes it is tough
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