I deny it! God called the firmament heaven. It doesn't have to be solid. It's still firm enough to hold the stars in place and restrain the waters above the firmament. You assume many things to be true that I believe aren't. You talk like a natural man.
I know you like to use PFAL as a center of reference so that's what I'll use.
In the PFAL foundational class, Wierwille stated that Heaven (or "the heavens") is Biblically defined as anything above the Earth's surface. In a later installment of the PFAL series of classes, (It might have been the Advanced Class...I'm not certain.) We were taught that there is a solid dome-like structure/membrane (firmament), beyond what we call Space, that holds back massive amounts of water. According to this teaching, the power struggle between God and Lucifer was so cataclysmic, it caused a temporary break in this structure, allowing huge quantities of water to leak through the barrier. This concept was used to explain The Great Flood, as well as explaining why comets are composed of ice crystals.
Based on this, you could technically say that the firmament is a PART of "the heavens".
Of course, scientific study (world wisdom) is responsibly for our knowledge of comet composition. Can we trust it to be true?
I deny it! God called the firmament heaven. It doesn't have to be solid. It's still firm enough to hold the stars in place and restrain the waters above the firmament. You assume many things to be true that I believe aren't. You talk like a natural man.
Awesome!!!! Now we've got some really good smack talk going on in this thread again. And all over (drumroll................)
Whether outer space is solid, liquid or gas.
Boy I sure hope I get that one right. I'm sure my eternal salvation hangs in the balance.
I deny it! God called the firmament heaven. It doesn't have to be solid. It's still firm enough to hold the stars in place and restrain the waters above the firmament. You assume many things to be true that I believe aren't. You talk like a natural man.
You can deny it all you'd like. You're flat out wrong, but go ahead. The truth needs no defense, remember? You can pretend the Bible says what you claim it does, but it doesn't. You can call me a natural man, but only one of us is letting the Bible speak for itself on this matter, and it's not you.
Please do a word study on firmament. Please show what that word means throughout scripture: empty space, or a solid structure? Please tell me, based on genuine historical research, what that word meant to the audience that originally read it. What did it mean to the first century church? Please show me any indication that Biblical Israel or the early Christian church was aware of the vastness of outer space. You won't find it. Science, not scripture, gave us this knowledge.
P.S. You keep saying things along the lines of accusing me of sounding like a natural man, etc. I would appreciate it if you would cut the bs. If you're going to challenge my points, challenge them. This ad hominem nonsense is beneath you. Challenge the merits of what I'm saying, with facts instead of opinion. Saying it sounds like what a natural man would say dodges the issue of whether a natural man is approaching the subject matter with more intellectual honesty than you. I contend that on this issue, he is.
There's a lot of sections of the Bible that speak to "wisdom" - Gods', man's, one versus the other, being wise, getting wisdom, what it is, etc. etc. Generally speaking but not specifically to the original query of this thread something like a word study would help getting a fix on what it means in the Bible byfrom examining the various contexts in which it's used and attempting to understand the intent of its' usage.
Along those lines a key verse to the topic of the thread is 1 Cor. 3:19 - For this world's wisdom is foolishness (absurdity and stupidity) with God, for it is written, He lays hold of the wise in their craftiness;
And wisdom there, "sophia" or reasonings. Pretty simple. Gods' reasoning is of a higher status than mans' is the idea, I think.
1 Cor 3 covers the difficulty of people exhalting one person over another as a teacher or leader in that church. Apollos over Paul, that kind of thing.
I think it's probably pretty simple to say that if 1. a person believes in God, Jehovah specifically, Father of Jesus Christ and they believe that 2. Jesus Christ is the Son of God and has a specific purpose as being sent forth from God to man - then there's been some level of reasoning and thought that's already occurred.....
and while the Paul we read about in the N.T. seems to have done a great deal of work in understanding Christ in light of scripture and philosophy he also wrote that he wasn't presenting a message of "reasonings" but rather one of "power" - and I think that's a basic idea that's consistent with the overall message of the N.T. about Jesus Christ - that while there's thought and consideration that goes into understanding and accepting Jesus Christ as Son of God the reality of Christ is not one that comes from intellectual effort to conceptualize a "Jesus" as being what they/Paul believed He was - rather that Jesus Christ was revealed to be the Son of God by the will and intent of God - the "power" of God, not man's and they understood it by that revealing that God did. Again, a theme that runs through the N.T. - not by man's effort or will or works but God's through Christ.
The wisdom of man produces hierarchies and tiers of authority, preferences towards thought and logic like what seems to be referred to in 1 Cor. 3 ( and just one example of the usages of "sophia" ) Paul seems to be saying there that the foundations, the platform and all of the underpinnings of the Christian message he and the other apostles taught were not based on that and not to be confused with other material that might support or even refute that, rather that their teaching, the message, the stuff they said they believed to be true, was the fundamental stuff.
When I think of foolishness in wisdom and the conflict of "worldly" and "godly" I think of it in relation to the N.T. doctrine of Jesus Christ. There is an element of "faith" that underscores Christianity but Christianity could not be said to be based solely on faith, in it's origins. It's really what a group of people said happened, what they said they heard and saw and what they understood - believed - it to mean based on what happened and what they were told by Jesus Christ. There was a faith that they invested in what they'd experienced.
One kind of reasoning could say "Jesus couldn't have healed a blind man and it could not have been a sign from God or a testament to who Jesus Christ was"........I'd assume their response would have been something like "I know - it's' nuts! But that's what happened and Jesus Himself spoke to us about it and much more. If you think that's crazy listen to this...."
By the way, nitpicking about whether some statement of "wisdom" contradicts something written in the bible misses the essence of what this is and should be all about for us.
We were conditioned to put limitations on what we could accept as valid knowledge, understanding and wisdom related to how we should or even could direct our own lives (and those of others, btw).
There was a vastly overwhelming amount of truth/fact/reality that such mental and emotional restrictions prevents people from benefitting from. There can be immense amounts
written on what we realized after leaving TWI that matters that we also dismissed if we knew anything about it or simply failed to exercise curiosity to explore, because it would take us
"out of the household" and out from "god's protection." What bulls*it we let ourselves put up with.
Hmmm. I know that when I indicated a preference for going to College over going WOW I got an extensive lecture (aka reaming) on the concept of "worldly knowledge" and how I would be wasting my time pursuing the "knowledge of men". I was even led to believe that by placing college over WOW that I might be opening myself up to "devil spirits" (the default Way argument). I'm glad I ignored them. What drove it home for me was during my second time through PFAL. They had signed up a local physician, (someone's Father I think), and altered the class start time to jibe with his schedule - something they would never do for "Joe believer". Anyway, I could not understand why it was okay to elevate this guy, (who most certainly went to College), while simultaneously telling people to stay away from higher learning. Of course it was because they could use his status as a physician to promote TWI. I didn't even bother to bring up this massive inconsistency in behavior to anyone. It would have been pointless and a waste of time and energy. This event did solidify my plans to depart TWI although it was more of a gradual exit as opposed to a single event.
Next scientologist destination. A planet, where the inhabitants are trying to figure out how to digest rock, more efficiently. After some instruction and enlightenment, come the lichens, later the sponges..
Then come the Lazy Thetans, who are intent upon making a living trading rocks and salt water..
anytime there is discovery.. the parasites follow closely behind..
Next lifetime.. maybe I'll take a can of Raid or some anti-fungal cream along..
I think the disturbing part of this is how they label "world wisdom" without precisely defining what it is. Is it.. philosophy, art, psychology, science and chemistry, physics, mathematics..
maybe religions which differ in their belief?
Maybe "all of the above" is implied.
Ham, I don't think a lot of people from a Cornfield Cult, in a tiny town in Ohio, knew Jack S--t! How can you experience the world unless you live in it??
Westboro Baptist Church members seem to run into this type of contradiction all the time, what with wisdom and behavior they feel others are engaged in that "contradicts God's Word". They run into this type of contradiction a whole lot more than your average Christian.
Saying something "contradicts God's Word" usually means it contradicts someone's narrow-minded doctrine and view.
Chock, I love the last paragraph in your post!!! You are so right!
Not personally aware of that exact statement but it sounds contextually like something Ted Patrick would say as brainwashing was a common criticism. I mean I may have heard a relative mutter that semi under their breath at one point while I was in. Yes it's a big distinction but it could be someone stating that just for dramatic effect rather than literally meaning ALL vs. really thinking it's the potential to be brainwashed.
And yes, yes anyone who signs up for a college course on Shakespeare is brainwashed. They either get over it or start talking in Elizabethan English, move to southern Cali, and work in the food service industry. Sorry I'm stereotyping again.
Chock, interesting posts!! I was an English major decades ago in college. Of all the English classes I took, the one I hated the most was Shakespeare!! To this day, I will not read "The Bard!" Anything except him!!
Recommended Posts
waysider
I know you like to use PFAL as a center of reference so that's what I'll use.
In the PFAL foundational class, Wierwille stated that Heaven (or "the heavens") is Biblically defined as anything above the Earth's surface. In a later installment of the PFAL series of classes, (It might have been the Advanced Class...I'm not certain.) We were taught that there is a solid dome-like structure/membrane (firmament), beyond what we call Space, that holds back massive amounts of water. According to this teaching, the power struggle between God and Lucifer was so cataclysmic, it caused a temporary break in this structure, allowing huge quantities of water to leak through the barrier. This concept was used to explain The Great Flood, as well as explaining why comets are composed of ice crystals.
Based on this, you could technically say that the firmament is a PART of "the heavens".
Of course, scientific study (world wisdom) is responsibly for our knowledge of comet composition. Can we trust it to be true?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Awesome!!!! Now we've got some really good smack talk going on in this thread again. And all over (drumroll................)
Whether outer space is solid, liquid or gas.
Boy I sure hope I get that one right. I'm sure my eternal salvation hangs in the balance.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Ladies and gentlemen, we wait anxiously to see what mysteries of the firmament have been unlocked by....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
You can deny it all you'd like. You're flat out wrong, but go ahead. The truth needs no defense, remember? You can pretend the Bible says what you claim it does, but it doesn't. You can call me a natural man, but only one of us is letting the Bible speak for itself on this matter, and it's not you.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
Please do a word study on firmament. Please show what that word means throughout scripture: empty space, or a solid structure? Please tell me, based on genuine historical research, what that word meant to the audience that originally read it. What did it mean to the first century church? Please show me any indication that Biblical Israel or the early Christian church was aware of the vastness of outer space. You won't find it. Science, not scripture, gave us this knowledge.
P.S. You keep saying things along the lines of accusing me of sounding like a natural man, etc. I would appreciate it if you would cut the bs. If you're going to challenge my points, challenge them. This ad hominem nonsense is beneath you. Challenge the merits of what I'm saying, with facts instead of opinion. Saying it sounds like what a natural man would say dodges the issue of whether a natural man is approaching the subject matter with more intellectual honesty than you. I contend that on this issue, he is.
Edited by RafLink to comment
Share on other sites
socks
There's a lot of sections of the Bible that speak to "wisdom" - Gods', man's, one versus the other, being wise, getting wisdom, what it is, etc. etc. Generally speaking but not specifically to the original query of this thread something like a word study would help getting a fix on what it means in the Bible byfrom examining the various contexts in which it's used and attempting to understand the intent of its' usage.
Along those lines a key verse to the topic of the thread is 1 Cor. 3:19 - For this world's wisdom is foolishness (absurdity and stupidity) with God, for it is written, He lays hold of the wise in their craftiness;
And wisdom there, "sophia" or reasonings. Pretty simple. Gods' reasoning is of a higher status than mans' is the idea, I think.
1 Cor 3 covers the difficulty of people exhalting one person over another as a teacher or leader in that church. Apollos over Paul, that kind of thing.
I think it's probably pretty simple to say that if 1. a person believes in God, Jehovah specifically, Father of Jesus Christ and they believe that 2. Jesus Christ is the Son of God and has a specific purpose as being sent forth from God to man - then there's been some level of reasoning and thought that's already occurred.....
and while the Paul we read about in the N.T. seems to have done a great deal of work in understanding Christ in light of scripture and philosophy he also wrote that he wasn't presenting a message of "reasonings" but rather one of "power" - and I think that's a basic idea that's consistent with the overall message of the N.T. about Jesus Christ - that while there's thought and consideration that goes into understanding and accepting Jesus Christ as Son of God the reality of Christ is not one that comes from intellectual effort to conceptualize a "Jesus" as being what they/Paul believed He was - rather that Jesus Christ was revealed to be the Son of God by the will and intent of God - the "power" of God, not man's and they understood it by that revealing that God did. Again, a theme that runs through the N.T. - not by man's effort or will or works but God's through Christ.
The wisdom of man produces hierarchies and tiers of authority, preferences towards thought and logic like what seems to be referred to in 1 Cor. 3 ( and just one example of the usages of "sophia" ) Paul seems to be saying there that the foundations, the platform and all of the underpinnings of the Christian message he and the other apostles taught were not based on that and not to be confused with other material that might support or even refute that, rather that their teaching, the message, the stuff they said they believed to be true, was the fundamental stuff.
When I think of foolishness in wisdom and the conflict of "worldly" and "godly" I think of it in relation to the N.T. doctrine of Jesus Christ. There is an element of "faith" that underscores Christianity but Christianity could not be said to be based solely on faith, in it's origins. It's really what a group of people said happened, what they said they heard and saw and what they understood - believed - it to mean based on what happened and what they were told by Jesus Christ. There was a faith that they invested in what they'd experienced.
One kind of reasoning could say "Jesus couldn't have healed a blind man and it could not have been a sign from God or a testament to who Jesus Christ was"........I'd assume their response would have been something like "I know - it's' nuts! But that's what happened and Jesus Himself spoke to us about it and much more. If you think that's crazy listen to this...."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
That's Box 328
New Knoxville, OH 45871
-----
By the way, nitpicking about whether some statement of "wisdom" contradicts something written in the bible misses the essence of what this is and should be all about for us.
We were conditioned to put limitations on what we could accept as valid knowledge, understanding and wisdom related to how we should or even could direct our own lives (and those of others, btw).
There was a vastly overwhelming amount of truth/fact/reality that such mental and emotional restrictions prevents people from benefitting from. There can be immense amounts
written on what we realized after leaving TWI that matters that we also dismissed if we knew anything about it or simply failed to exercise curiosity to explore, because it would take us
"out of the household" and out from "god's protection." What bulls*it we let ourselves put up with.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Link to comment
Share on other sites
diazbro
Hmmm. I know that when I indicated a preference for going to College over going WOW I got an extensive lecture (aka reaming) on the concept of "worldly knowledge" and how I would be wasting my time pursuing the "knowledge of men". I was even led to believe that by placing college over WOW that I might be opening myself up to "devil spirits" (the default Way argument). I'm glad I ignored them. What drove it home for me was during my second time through PFAL. They had signed up a local physician, (someone's Father I think), and altered the class start time to jibe with his schedule - something they would never do for "Joe believer". Anyway, I could not understand why it was okay to elevate this guy, (who most certainly went to College), while simultaneously telling people to stay away from higher learning. Of course it was because they could use his status as a physician to promote TWI. I didn't even bother to bring up this massive inconsistency in behavior to anyone. It would have been pointless and a waste of time and energy. This event did solidify my plans to depart TWI although it was more of a gradual exit as opposed to a single event.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
"these kind" of "organizations" do this kind of thing all the time.. go to great lengths to accommodate a celebrity..
fascinating. scientology seems to have more to offer to the likes of cruise and travolta than twi.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Next scientologist destination. A planet, where the inhabitants are trying to figure out how to digest rock, more efficiently. After some instruction and enlightenment, come the lichens, later the sponges..
Then come the Lazy Thetans, who are intent upon making a living trading rocks and salt water..
anytime there is discovery.. the parasites follow closely behind..
Next lifetime.. maybe I'll take a can of Raid or some anti-fungal cream along..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Grace Valerie Claire
OS, ouch!! I think you hit the nail on the head! I think TWI didn't want to lose people, and their ABS, to real worth while organizations!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Grace Valerie Claire
Chock, we have a winner!!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Grace Valerie Claire
Ham, I don't think a lot of people from a Cornfield Cult, in a tiny town in Ohio, knew Jack S--t! How can you experience the world unless you live in it??
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Grace Valerie Claire
Chock, I love the last paragraph in your post!!! You are so right!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Grace Valerie Claire
Chock, interesting posts!! I was an English major decades ago in college. Of all the English classes I took, the one I hated the most was Shakespeare!! To this day, I will not read "The Bard!" Anything except him!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
If anti-intellectualism was already part of society, I would guess that VPW was likely just playing on that.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Ah, anti-intellectual.
The Bible was written by ancients. To solve non-scientific problems. There's no credibility issue.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.