RichnCrispy reminds me of an experience that I had a few years ago. I was dating a Peruvian girl at the time and I went with her to a church in San Francisco that she liked and occasionally attended. I was sitting towards the back of the church and they had some light skinned guy supposedly ministering to a dark skinned latin male. This was after or during a teaching the light skinned man was supposedly doing. I say supposedly because, although he was speaking a great deal, he was not actually ministering or teaching at least as far as I was concerned. Rather he had this guy on both knees prostate before him in a very worshipful pose. And this was over an extended period of time. And honestly the light skinned male looked like he was of Spanish descent and the dark skinned male looked like he was of Mayan or Aztec descent.
Needless to say when I saw this my blood started to boil and I had to refrain myself from speaking aloud and/or walking up to the guy in front of everyone on the spot and telling him how he was a fraudulent minister to do this in Jesus' name. Considering the fact that Jesus served rather than was served by his followers. I held my tongue though. It seemed like a very long time that he had this guy prostate before him while he spoke his words in Spanish or perhaps the words were spoken in both English and Spanish. Finally after he was done I bolted up to the guy and told him clearly that what he was doing was wrong and that his so called ministering reminded me of the Spanish Inquisition. He spoke English and Spanish. Good thing for him that he had enough sense not to argue with me about this because I would have filleted and roasted him on the spot. And enjoyed the experience greatly. Instead he sort of apologetically nodded as if to say, but I did not really mean anything of harm and isn't this what other church leaders do?
Cults usually have a charismatic leader, right? That's one of the qualities that usually defines a Cult ® I don't mean to offend anyone but I don't think CES meets the criteria there.
Priceless, Socks..
true, it may or may not be.. but it is a catchy label, is it not?
The similarity between CES and its "papa" are rather striking, though.
They took TWI dogma- the "keys", administrations, holy spirit stuff, JCING, and more- and purified it seven times: a few tweaks, a few "refinements", and what do you have?
A product that is nearly as exciting and new as watching eggs boil.
Perhaps the personal prophecy thingy was supposed to give some pizzazz and charisma to yet one more drab and lifeless organization.
As has been pointed out, what is happening with ces/stfi, what happened with twi, what happens with jw, what goes on in many churches, what goes on in corporate america...all of these organizations have the same basic problems and could all fall within the definition of 'cult'.
But it takes a cooperative group of people to make the group into a cult.
I have started a new thread that is a letter from John Lynn.
Posted with permission
It starts off:
To Whom It May Concern:
As I begin this letter, my heart is weeping about the current state of affairs among the members of the Spirit and Truth Fellowship International Board of Directors, each of whom is one of my closest friends.
What you will read is my best assessment of many conversations with the principals involved and/or reading more than 100 pages of their own words in correspondence back and forth among them.
The letter was written by a man who couldn't be honest enough to say he was divorcing his wife because the marriage was a mistake. Or because it simply wasn't working out. Or even because she was a raving b**tch.
He had to justify it by couching it in "godliness", via some very destructive and hurtful "prophesies". He couldn't just walk away and leave her, he had to completely demoralize her first. Or at the very least, he supported those who did.
In my mind, that makes anything he couches in the name of god questionable.
The letter was written by a man who couldn't be honest enough to say he was divorcing his wife because the marriage was a mistake. Or because it simply wasn't working out. Or even because she was a raving b**tch.
He had to justify it by couching it in "godliness", via some very destructive and hurtful "prophesies". He couldn't just walk away and leave her, he had to completely demoralize her first. Or at the very least, he supported those who did.
In my mind, that makes anything he couches in the name of god questionable.
I guess I don't even know why anyone even gives a spit about any of this.
I left twi 20 years ago. It took perhaps another year or two to decide they were all full of beans.
I can only speak for me Rocky, and I left long before you did... but I still get extremely upset when I hear of folks being hurt and/or used... whether they "allowed themselves" to be or not... I just DO NOT like people who do that to other people. I know there are users/abusers all over the place TWI/CES/STFI do not have the corner on the market... but I will call them out and (attempt) to kick their a$$e$ when I can... regardless of how long ago I came to whatever conclusion it was in my mind...
OK...so I get an 'I told you so' out of this mess...
So?
I wasn't the only one who told people about ces/stfi...wasn't there a whole message board dealing with the problems...?
But this is not a gleeful, end zone dance type of 'I told you so'. It's an 'I wish I knew the words to say to have had your ear years ago before you got hurt' type of 'I told you so'.
Like when a child burns his/her hand on a hot stove after being told and shown many, many times not to touch the stove...
"Oh honey! Come here and let Mommy fix your owie! I'm sorry this happened to you, but Mommy tried to teach you not to touch that stove. Let's talk about how I can help you remember not to touch that stove again, OK?"
"Oh honey! Come here and let Mommy fix your owie! I'm sorry this happened to you, but Mommy tried to teach you not to touch that stove. Let's talk about how I can help you remember not to touch that stove again, OK?"
The problem with CES has been you can't speak the truth in love to them unless it benefits them.
They have misused personal prophecy. Prophecy is for exortation, edification, and comfort. Not to advise people to marry so and so or for personal guidance. They became puffed up.
We need to seek God's Word for guidance, not some prophetess who is out in left field.
I just made a post on the other thread directing people to come back here. It's a different atmosphere over here...one where people who have been through things like this help other people get through it. I agree with your post. I, too, spoke up in CES. And I will so very glad when the evil ends. I don't think they meant to cause evil. But they still caused it. This is a place you can say whatever you like...no Marking and Avoiding you here at the GSC! Post on!!
The problem with CES has been you can't speak the truth in love to them unless it benefits them.
They have misused personal prophecy. Prophecy is for exortation, edification, and comfort. Not to advise people to marry so and so or for personal guidance. They became puffed up.
We need to seek God's Word for guidance, not some prophetess who is out in left field.
Welcome Lagates. From what I have read, CES has become TWI. They too practiced the same things, they just used different terminology for it.
Some good pieces of information from among the chaos of the other thread.
Grace said:
NOTE: CES is not in a Mess just because on January 15 the Board will vote Mark out as President, terminate him as an employee and cut off further input from Karen Anne (and probably from Tom and Susan). CES is in a Mess because your entire BOD has continued to allow more and more ungodly words and actions to reign in their/your organization and refused to hear from many believers who pointed it out to them. Tragically, it is just what occurred in The Way under whom your BOD was trained
I said:
Just like TWI's problems continue, despite the change in leadership (removing the front man but retaining those who covered for him), CES's problems will continue, even if the latest front man "MG" is removed from power.
It goes back to structural problems, doctrinal problems, a lack of checks and balances.
Strange One said:
IF they're really interested in cleaning things up as opposed to huddling in the bunker trying to defend themselves from the grenades being tossed. STAND UP and put it out there for folks to deal with... HONESTLY... without reservation
Sunesis pointed out:
VPW ordained these men. By law, those who left TWI years ago and were no longer affiliated with TWI could not retain their "Reverend" title. But they still use them anyway
and
For some reason, TWI fostered this MOG mentality, gotta follow someone. Or if someone was a MOG, well, they now have to take the package, purify it, make it better and sell it. What gives these people the right with no real theological educations the right to even do this? Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.
Dmiller said:
From my distant/ partner perspective of CES/STF --
the org has had always seemed to be forthcoming about new things they were learning.
Sadly -- they were not as forthcoming with the present internal problems.
While quick to admit that teachings they've promoted in the past,
were in fact not correct according to new things learned --
it's a shame (imo) that *correction* couldn't be done in other areas as well.
Especially in this area -- where folks are directly impacted in their personal lives.
and
Do I need an org to help me walk the Christian walk better?? NO.
Neither do you, nor does anyone else.
But many of us have chosen an org to follow after our exit from twi.
And that's whether it's *this denomination* or *that denomination*.
If you have involved yourself in a church/ denominatiion (regardless of persuasion),
you are following an org, which (by definition) has little difference than CES.
I'm sure there is more, but that is plenty to chew on.
Some good pieces of information from among the chaos of the other thread.
Grace said:
NOTE: CES is not in a Mess just because on January 15 the Board will vote Mark out as President, terminate him as an employee and cut off further input from Karen Anne (and probably from Tom and Susan). CES is in a Mess because your entire BOD has continued to allow more and more ungodly words and actions to reign in their/your organization and refused to hear from many believers who pointed it out to them. Tragically, it is just what occurred in The Way under whom your BOD was trained
I said:
Just like TWI's problems continue, despite the change in leadership (removing the front man but retaining those who covered for him), CES's problems will continue, even if the latest front man "MG" is removed from power.
It goes back to structural problems, doctrinal problems, a lack of checks and balances.
Strange One said:
IF they're really interested in cleaning things up as opposed to huddling in the bunker trying to defend themselves from the grenades being tossed. STAND UP and put it out there for folks to deal with... HONESTLY... without reservation
Sunesis pointed out:
VPW ordained these men. By law, those who left TWI years ago and were no longer affiliated with TWI could not retain their "Reverend" title. But they still use them anyway
and
For some reason, TWI fostered this MOG mentality, gotta follow someone. Or if someone was a MOG, well, they now have to take the package, purify it, make it better and sell it. What gives these people the right with no real theological educations the right to even do this? Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.
Dmiller said:
From my distant/ partner perspective of CES/STF --
the org has had always seemed to be forthcoming about new things they were learning.
Sadly -- they were not as forthcoming with the present internal problems.
While quick to admit that teachings they've promoted in the past,
were in fact not correct according to new things learned --
it's a shame (imo) that *correction* couldn't be done in other areas as well.
Especially in this area -- where folks are directly impacted in their personal lives.
and
Do I need an org to help me walk the Christian walk better?? NO.
Neither do you, nor does anyone else.
But many of us have chosen an org to follow after our exit from twi.
And that's whether it's *this denomination* or *that denomination*.
If you have involved yourself in a church/ denominatiion (regardless of persuasion),
you are following an org, which (by definition) has little difference than CES.
I'm sure there is more, but that is plenty to chew on.
Abi -- good post.
Perhaps I should add that (as I understand it),
$5,000 is spent by CES to print and mail out their bi-monthly magazine THE SOWER,
which is sent out to those on their mailing list.
Imo -- I would have rather had them forgo the magazine,
and spend the money already allocated for it to let folks (such as myself),
know what was REALLY going on. But that wasn't done.
It would have been a treat to hear some REAL knowledge of ministry affairs,
instead of the *feel good* letters from folks in foreign countries,
and the constant positive reports of the seminars that have been run.
Now -- with that being said -- here is a quote from the latest issue of THE SOWER;
Nov/Dec 2006 issue, page 3, authored by Mark Graeser ---
We all need mercy from God and each other, and we need to be merciful in our dealings with others as well. It is significant that the Pastoral Epistles of Timothy and Titus all add "mercy" to the standard Pauline greeting of "grace and peace". Why would that be? Because spiritual leaders in the Body of Christ must first experience mercy before they can give it to others. If they do not, they will become hard-hearted and judge God's people harshly in a way that is neither godly nor helpful to spiritual growth in the Lord.
My addition here -----
(I'm going to BOLD the next paragraph, as it is (now) OBVIOUS to me ----
that Mark G *preaches* one thing - yet does not take his own words to heart.)
That does not mean, however, that we let people off the hook when they sin or have personality problems that must be confronted. Clearly, one of the marks of a Christian servant-leader is the courage to confront misbehavior and deal appropriately with it for the protection of the Body of Christ. Sometimes people must be warned, sometimes excluded from fellowship for a time, and sometimes publickly rebuked. The clear pattern for handling such situations is to confront that person face to face first, then, if they don't listen, bring other witnesses, and if neccesary, bring the person before the church. I DON'T THINK THAT MEANS WE PUBLISH IT IN THE SOWER OR POST IT ON THE INTERNET. It just means that we gather a number of saints around the offending person and have a healthy, loving intervention (Mt. 18: 15-18). The last step is to treat the person as you would an unbeliever (i.e., kindly, but detached).
I'm reading M & A for everyone except himself.
I appreciate the fact that if there are local problems -- of any nature --
you deal with them locally. Granted --it's no one else's business.
But if there are problems that have gone unresolved, such as these --
the entire *ministry* needs to know, if true accountability means anything.
As far as I am concerned, the above two paragraphs (veiled as a "teaching*) hint at problems,
but neither specifically mention them, nor address them ---
All the while *solidifying* MG's position as Prez.
The very least that could have been done is say --
"We've got some issues here. Please pray for us."
And I didn't even hear that. But I did get the mag in the mail last month. :(
Wow, reading that makes me feel like I was back in TWI again. Very spooky. I find the practice of mark and avoid completely repugnant. I know it is in the Bible. However, whatever God meant it to be, however God meant it to be practiced, I strongly believe that neither TWI nor CES have it right.
The last step is to treat the person as you would an unbeliever (i.e., kindly, but detached). Hmmm, I wonder if Elizabeth feels that she was treated kindly, but with detachment. Someone I seriously doubt it. Perhaps one should investigate what kindess means to those who lead CES.
YOu have a house that is falling apart with structural problems.
The structural problems have caused cosmetic problems.
The major structural problems have caused other structural problems. Suppose it's not just the walls, or the doors, or the windows.... suppose its the foundation itself. Now you have a real problem.
Now - sure you can do the easy stuff - replace some shingles, caulk some cracks, maybe even sand a few doors and door jams to keep things looking good. You can even give it a new coat of paint and new curtains.
BUT......the structural problems will still be there and they will worsten and more money will be put into cosmetic issues soon.
Makes a case for gutting the place and starting over.
I truly think that these folks need to be in a level of support and not leadership for a season - like maybe 20 seasons really, and learn how to be accountable.
If it ain't broke don't fix it. But if it is broken sometimes you have to throw it out and get something new.
"The last step is to treat the person as you would an unbeliever (i.e., kindly, but detached)"
Kindly but detached? WHAT? Just how do you win folks to Christ if you are "kindly but detached?" That is the biggest bunch of malarkey I've ever read in my life.
Was Jesus "Kindly but detached?"
Idiots....
"Wanna come to church with me?" She said in her kindly but detached manner. "If you believe I'll be your best friend, that is, until you screw up, and "get out of fellowship."(According to ME of course.) Then I'm going right back to being "kindly but detached."
Therein lies the conundrum. Gods' Word is perfect, people are not. As in twi, the 'leadership' needs to remember this and even themselves learn it's o.k. to say "sorry, I think we got this or that wrong".
Old and new testament saints made mistakes, with Gods' help they often recognized it, made appropriate adjustments and then moved on. I hope CES do the same.
Many posters here received salvation and wholeness (initially) from perfect words spoken on the lips of imperfect people.
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notinKansasanymore
Well, then let's PRAY for them. If they're having troubles, and if their original intention was to serve God and help His people (and we can all recall that this is not a goal without natural obsta
Sushi
I'm not exactly sure of the quote, but someone once said, "All organizations have the seeds of death planted in them at their beginning", or something to that effect. You can be sure, whatever organiz
Whatsgoingon
I am very discouraged with my present involvement with STFI. If Mark G causes more issues with SFTI after he is removed from office next week we will probably cease our involvement with that organizat
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Mark Sanguinetti
RichnCrispy reminds me of an experience that I had a few years ago. I was dating a Peruvian girl at the time and I went with her to a church in San Francisco that she liked and occasionally attended. I was sitting towards the back of the church and they had some light skinned guy supposedly ministering to a dark skinned latin male. This was after or during a teaching the light skinned man was supposedly doing. I say supposedly because, although he was speaking a great deal, he was not actually ministering or teaching at least as far as I was concerned. Rather he had this guy on both knees prostate before him in a very worshipful pose. And this was over an extended period of time. And honestly the light skinned male looked like he was of Spanish descent and the dark skinned male looked like he was of Mayan or Aztec descent.
Needless to say when I saw this my blood started to boil and I had to refrain myself from speaking aloud and/or walking up to the guy in front of everyone on the spot and telling him how he was a fraudulent minister to do this in Jesus' name. Considering the fact that Jesus served rather than was served by his followers. I held my tongue though. It seemed like a very long time that he had this guy prostate before him while he spoke his words in Spanish or perhaps the words were spoken in both English and Spanish. Finally after he was done I bolted up to the guy and told him clearly that what he was doing was wrong and that his so called ministering reminded me of the Spanish Inquisition. He spoke English and Spanish. Good thing for him that he had enough sense not to argue with me about this because I would have filleted and roasted him on the spot. And enjoyed the experience greatly. Instead he sort of apologetically nodded as if to say, but I did not really mean anything of harm and isn't this what other church leaders do?
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Ham
Priceless, Socks..
true, it may or may not be.. but it is a catchy label, is it not?
The similarity between CES and its "papa" are rather striking, though.
They took TWI dogma- the "keys", administrations, holy spirit stuff, JCING, and more- and purified it seven times: a few tweaks, a few "refinements", and what do you have?
A product that is nearly as exciting and new as watching eggs boil.
Perhaps the personal prophecy thingy was supposed to give some pizzazz and charisma to yet one more drab and lifeless organization.
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Raf
Not to malign CES as a cult, but you do not need a charismatic leader to have a cult.
Most JW's would be hard pressed to name their "leader."
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CoolWaters
Nobody is ever a leader without followers.
As has been pointed out, what is happening with ces/stfi, what happened with twi, what happens with jw, what goes on in many churches, what goes on in corporate america...all of these organizations have the same basic problems and could all fall within the definition of 'cult'.
But it takes a cooperative group of people to make the group into a cult.
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Jeff USAF RET
I have started a new thread that is a letter from John Lynn.
Posted with permission
It starts off:
To Whom It May Concern:
As I begin this letter, my heart is weeping about the current state of affairs among the members of the Spirit and Truth Fellowship International Board of Directors, each of whom is one of my closest friends.
What you will read is my best assessment of many conversations with the principals involved and/or reading more than 100 pages of their own words in correspondence back and forth among them.
Here is the link:
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=12605
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Abigail
As you read his letter, think about this.
The letter was written by a man who couldn't be honest enough to say he was divorcing his wife because the marriage was a mistake. Or because it simply wasn't working out. Or even because she was a raving b**tch.
He had to justify it by couching it in "godliness", via some very destructive and hurtful "prophesies". He couldn't just walk away and leave her, he had to completely demoralize her first. Or at the very least, he supported those who did.
In my mind, that makes anything he couches in the name of god questionable.
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cman
come on Mr. L.
quit the double talk
you'll get the same respect everyone else does
it's you who lacks the courage to speak
your letter says nothing
your name is not important, neither is mine
quit being so self absorbed and trying to hide behind other people
this is how you were taught to communicate
is it right?
consider looking at it from outside your own interests
---------------------------------------
dizzydog-
Yes it does, I always must be doing something to get a clearer view.
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onefinecustom
Abigail,
As you read his letter, think about this.
The letter was written by a man who couldn't be honest enough to say he was divorcing his wife because the marriage was a mistake. Or because it simply wasn't working out. Or even because she was a raving b**tch.
He had to justify it by couching it in "godliness", via some very destructive and hurtful "prophesies". He couldn't just walk away and leave her, he had to completely demoralize her first. Or at the very least, he supported those who did.
In my mind, that makes anything he couches in the name of god questionable.
Very good points Abigail!
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Rocky
I guess I don't even know why anyone even gives a spit about any of this.
I left twi 20 years ago. It took perhaps another year or two to decide they were all full of beans.
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Tom Strange
I can only speak for me Rocky, and I left long before you did... but I still get extremely upset when I hear of folks being hurt and/or used... whether they "allowed themselves" to be or not... I just DO NOT like people who do that to other people. I know there are users/abusers all over the place TWI/CES/STFI do not have the corner on the market... but I will call them out and (attempt) to kick their a$$e$ when I can... regardless of how long ago I came to whatever conclusion it was in my mind...
But that's just me... :)
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CoolWaters
OK...so I get an 'I told you so' out of this mess...
So?
I wasn't the only one who told people about ces/stfi...wasn't there a whole message board dealing with the problems...?
But this is not a gleeful, end zone dance type of 'I told you so'. It's an 'I wish I knew the words to say to have had your ear years ago before you got hurt' type of 'I told you so'.
Like when a child burns his/her hand on a hot stove after being told and shown many, many times not to touch the stove...
"Oh honey! Come here and let Mommy fix your owie! I'm sorry this happened to you, but Mommy tried to teach you not to touch that stove. Let's talk about how I can help you remember not to touch that stove again, OK?"
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griffp
I love when you talk like that Mommy :)
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lagates
The problem with CES has been you can't speak the truth in love to them unless it benefits them.
They have misused personal prophecy. Prophecy is for exortation, edification, and comfort. Not to advise people to marry so and so or for personal guidance. They became puffed up.
We need to seek God's Word for guidance, not some prophetess who is out in left field.
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GrouchoMarxJr
lagates...Welcome to the GreaseSpot! Have some coffee and stay awhile. :)
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therebutforgrace
Welcome, lagates.
I just made a post on the other thread directing people to come back here. It's a different atmosphere over here...one where people who have been through things like this help other people get through it. I agree with your post. I, too, spoke up in CES. And I will so very glad when the evil ends. I don't think they meant to cause evil. But they still caused it. This is a place you can say whatever you like...no Marking and Avoiding you here at the GSC! Post on!!
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Abigail
Welcome Lagates. From what I have read, CES has become TWI. They too practiced the same things, they just used different terminology for it.
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richnchrispy
I think this is true from the other thread.
Chrispy
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Abigail
Some good pieces of information from among the chaos of the other thread.
Grace said:
NOTE: CES is not in a Mess just because on January 15 the Board will vote Mark out as President, terminate him as an employee and cut off further input from Karen Anne (and probably from Tom and Susan). CES is in a Mess because your entire BOD has continued to allow more and more ungodly words and actions to reign in their/your organization and refused to hear from many believers who pointed it out to them. Tragically, it is just what occurred in The Way under whom your BOD was trained
I said:
Just like TWI's problems continue, despite the change in leadership (removing the front man but retaining those who covered for him), CES's problems will continue, even if the latest front man "MG" is removed from power.
It goes back to structural problems, doctrinal problems, a lack of checks and balances.
Strange One said:
IF they're really interested in cleaning things up as opposed to huddling in the bunker trying to defend themselves from the grenades being tossed. STAND UP and put it out there for folks to deal with... HONESTLY... without reservation
Sunesis pointed out:
VPW ordained these men. By law, those who left TWI years ago and were no longer affiliated with TWI could not retain their "Reverend" title. But they still use them anyway
and
For some reason, TWI fostered this MOG mentality, gotta follow someone. Or if someone was a MOG, well, they now have to take the package, purify it, make it better and sell it. What gives these people the right with no real theological educations the right to even do this? Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.
Dmiller said:
From my distant/ partner perspective of CES/STF --
the org has had always seemed to be forthcoming about new things they were learning.
Sadly -- they were not as forthcoming with the present internal problems.
While quick to admit that teachings they've promoted in the past,
were in fact not correct according to new things learned --
it's a shame (imo) that *correction* couldn't be done in other areas as well.
Especially in this area -- where folks are directly impacted in their personal lives.
and
Do I need an org to help me walk the Christian walk better?? NO.
Neither do you, nor does anyone else.
But many of us have chosen an org to follow after our exit from twi.
And that's whether it's *this denomination* or *that denomination*.
If you have involved yourself in a church/ denominatiion (regardless of persuasion),
you are following an org, which (by definition) has little difference than CES.
I'm sure there is more, but that is plenty to chew on.
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lagates
Yes, CES is in a mess.
I suggest they all start over again. Get back to Bible research, teaching and fellowship with the people.
Perhaps they all need jobs, without making money off the ministry. Teach the pure word and live it.
Power, money and greed is not something to be desired.
Let God take care of their need.
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dmiller
Abi -- good post.
Perhaps I should add that (as I understand it),
$5,000 is spent by CES to print and mail out their bi-monthly magazine THE SOWER,
which is sent out to those on their mailing list.
Imo -- I would have rather had them forgo the magazine,
and spend the money already allocated for it to let folks (such as myself),
know what was REALLY going on. But that wasn't done.
It would have been a treat to hear some REAL knowledge of ministry affairs,
instead of the *feel good* letters from folks in foreign countries,
and the constant positive reports of the seminars that have been run.
Now -- with that being said -- here is a quote from the latest issue of THE SOWER;
Nov/Dec 2006 issue, page 3, authored by Mark Graeser ---
I'm reading M & A for everyone except himself.
I appreciate the fact that if there are local problems -- of any nature --
you deal with them locally. Granted --it's no one else's business.
But if there are problems that have gone unresolved, such as these --
the entire *ministry* needs to know, if true accountability means anything.
As far as I am concerned, the above two paragraphs (veiled as a "teaching*) hint at problems,
but neither specifically mention them, nor address them ---
All the while *solidifying* MG's position as Prez.
The very least that could have been done is say --
"We've got some issues here. Please pray for us."
And I didn't even hear that. But I did get the mag in the mail last month. :(
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Abigail
Wow, reading that makes me feel like I was back in TWI again. Very spooky. I find the practice of mark and avoid completely repugnant. I know it is in the Bible. However, whatever God meant it to be, however God meant it to be practiced, I strongly believe that neither TWI nor CES have it right.
The last step is to treat the person as you would an unbeliever (i.e., kindly, but detached). Hmmm, I wonder if Elizabeth feels that she was treated kindly, but with detachment. Someone I seriously doubt it. Perhaps one should investigate what kindess means to those who lead CES.
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doojable
Ok so think of it this way...
YOu have a house that is falling apart with structural problems.
The structural problems have caused cosmetic problems.
The major structural problems have caused other structural problems. Suppose it's not just the walls, or the doors, or the windows.... suppose its the foundation itself. Now you have a real problem.
Now - sure you can do the easy stuff - replace some shingles, caulk some cracks, maybe even sand a few doors and door jams to keep things looking good. You can even give it a new coat of paint and new curtains.
BUT......the structural problems will still be there and they will worsten and more money will be put into cosmetic issues soon.
Makes a case for gutting the place and starting over.
I truly think that these folks need to be in a level of support and not leadership for a season - like maybe 20 seasons really, and learn how to be accountable.
If it ain't broke don't fix it. But if it is broken sometimes you have to throw it out and get something new.
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doojable
"The last step is to treat the person as you would an unbeliever (i.e., kindly, but detached)"
Kindly but detached? WHAT? Just how do you win folks to Christ if you are "kindly but detached?" That is the biggest bunch of malarkey I've ever read in my life.
Was Jesus "Kindly but detached?"
Idiots....
"Wanna come to church with me?" She said in her kindly but detached manner. "If you believe I'll be your best friend, that is, until you screw up, and "get out of fellowship."(According to ME of course.) Then I'm going right back to being "kindly but detached."
THAT folks is using people.
IDIOTS!
SHEEEEESH.......
Meet the new boss, same as the "old boss...
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allan w.
Therein lies the conundrum. Gods' Word is perfect, people are not. As in twi, the 'leadership' needs to remember this and even themselves learn it's o.k. to say "sorry, I think we got this or that wrong".
Old and new testament saints made mistakes, with Gods' help they often recognized it, made appropriate adjustments and then moved on. I hope CES do the same.
Many posters here received salvation and wholeness (initially) from perfect words spoken on the lips of imperfect people.
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