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I forget who it was, perhaps Emily Post or Amy Vanderbilt, but at any rate this was a person who was high high society and known for etiquette, so it was probably one of the two. This is a story my mom impressed upon me: This individual was hosting a banquet and a famous person was the guest of honor, a person of humble origins who did not know the finer points of etiquette. At any rate, this guest, after the first course has been served, picked up his napkin and carefully tied it around his neck!!!!!! The hostess, without raising an eyebrow, did the exact same thing and so did the other guests. That's manners, folks. Oh, and class, too. wG

Not just that.. but isn't it LAME? Where's the "boldness", in him or in the *wonderful* administrators of the program? Lame, and pathetic.. they won't visit anywhere, it seems, where their arrogance just might be challenged.. anything that is said, is likely only to a controlled audience. I really think, When the old man, mac and the few other "old timers".. whoever they may be are gone, this little venture will turn into a wierwille brothers (and cousins) club.. there will be a whole family of numbnuts who can't be voted off.. if it ever makes it that far. why they want to sow that kind of corruption in their own family is beyond me..

O.K., How about your daughter as commander-in-chief and Ham as Generalisimo. I think the great squirrel in a Patton or MacArthur get up would make a great generalisimo.

Dear Watered Garden, That sums much of it very nicely for me. And in my former splinter group I was amazed at the docile and content nature that the followers were expected to have while top leadership was encouraged to preform base brutality against many hearts and minds. Your sharing reminds me of the saying "Let not the strong please themselves unto their own edification." And leadership brutality and politicing lacks much of the grace and class that true etiquette contains.

LOL. Yep. Definately was not pleasant or sress free. So much pressure, and God forbid leadership should sit at your table....

Precisely! The purpose of etiquette is to make an event a pleasant and stress free experience for the participants. What we did in TWI, with all our precise table manners, etc., was not etiquette, it was ritualized behavior.

I highly recommend this book for anyone who wants a better understanding of the complexities of abuse. edit: You can order it through Amazon by going to the home page here.

Manners. Hmmm. Now that I think about it, I saw a lot of Way believers become rude about manners. Ripping someone to shreads over a slight mis step with words, or not wiping a table properly etc....All in the name of ettiquette or being decent and in order. Some guy once flipped out and yelled at me because I passed the wrong plate to someone. I had violated ettiquette by doing that. Ironic really. He was more rude and inconsiderate by yelling at me in front of everyone than what I did by passing the wrong plate. I was humiliated at the time, but now I just think he was weird.

Yep.. all the while the "elders" are in some smoke filled back room, downing shots of Drambuie and Schnapps, eating pickled pigs feet, and planning to take over the world.. what is "interesting".. I looked over cff's website.. there is a noticable absence of any link or reference to sowers and such.. and the fellow-laborers page has practically no reference to v2p2. Their history of him leaves him running a "twig" in his old home town.. methinks MAYBE somebody "woke up" in the organization?

Thanks RumRunner! Of course I want to - - that's all the fun is being able to play these things right away. I'm not sure which one you saw....so juist for giggles sake.....please click on the last one I did....the one below here where I did it correctly - - because that's the other one that I found so funny.

Thanks Krys - BTW when you do an embed from youtube - go to edit options (on GSC) and select HTML auto line break mode - well if you want to.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value=" name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Please turn your volume up a little and listen carefully :) sorry - - - I need a do-ever

I have a really, really bad feeling and suspicion.. I'll have to check on it..

Well, they have to fulfill that old "prophesy" (cough), that the "word" will live as long as there are members of the Wierwille family "standing". (whatever that means.)

Didn't an invasion like this happen in Australia once? Farmers didn't til the fields or something . . . Perhaps a foreshadow of things to come . . .

I don't know if twi is worth talking about or not. Talking about them doesn't make them go away. Sometimes talking about it diffuses the pressure. Sometimes it doesn't.

I finished the book. although my therapist was concerned about me choosing this time to read it, I think it was a very positive experience. I wasn't around when vpw was prez, but the things she described were carried through and affected the entire organization. the methods used on her were also used on me, to the point I also felt trapped and confused. I could very much relate to her inward battle. also, she wraps up the book with some incredibly useful advice for anyone making the choice to get away. choosing a therapist or legal counsel with no knowledge of the cult hive mind can indeed make things so much more difficult. I was ashamed to bring up my cult involvement at first when looking for mental and legal help, but I've learned that I have to make sure the people I hire to help me are able to deal with that part of my reality.

I got my copy and read about half in one day. I couldn't put it down. I'm hoping to get some reading time this weekend so I can finish it. a lot of things are milling around in my head from what I've read so far, but the most significant is how easily and how deeply organizations like twi can pull in the walking wounded and condition them to be cannon fodder.

that's a good thing, excie!

PLEASE don't take this the wrong way i am so sick and tired of the validation thing even though it's what i lived for here (waydale etc) i'm actually starting to believe myself no matter who says what ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha thanks

thank you

I was just browsing amazon and saw that a couple of twi innies left scathing reviews of the book and questioned Kristin's ability to remember events that happened so long ago. hell, I remember my 3rd birthday party and that was longer ago than Kristin's experiences. I remember hundreds of events from my childhood before I reached the age of 10. I even know why my parents divorced and I was only 4, because as an adult the events I witnessed that seemed to mean nothing through a child's eyes make perfect sense as an adult. the attempts to question Kristin's memory are laughable, and predictable, and one of the tactics they used on me when I was an innie to make me doubt my every thought. I can't wait to read her book. I just bought it for myself as a winter solstice present.

reading the few above posts, it's really a shame i didn't know more of "the word" lol (it wouldn't have mattered really, i thought he / they knew more than i) too used to obeying father figures, i guess although my mom's love and my own common sense kept me pulling away -- grossed out in a sense but always doubting myself

Exactly the reasons why I for many years felt my experience in corps my final corps residence year didn't mean anything...very mild in comparison, the people involved were good, etc).

I understand that was the official version. The term was used for many purposes, to flatter, cajole, and also to threaten, reprove, and as a "put-down." WG

Which was a form of flattery. Who in TWI would not wish to consider themselves spiritually mature? The first time I heard that load of crap, I pulled out the verse about all being given an equal measure of spirit. Then it became a "matter of faith." That load of crap was countered by my "belief" that if you had to flatter and offer fake relationships to get people to come on board and become spiritually mature, perhaps what TWI was offering wasn't all that desirable.

WG, I was giving the official version. Just like any predator, child molester, etc...they have *secrets* with their victims. They make them feel special, so that the dirty little secret is kept from public view, from the people or athorities that would recognize the exploitation. When feeling special doesn`t work, then manipulation and intimidation is used to ensure continued silence. It takes years and years sometimes to come to recognize the betrayal.

Since you have made it clear you are giving your account from your own point of view, I think you observation is reasonable and realistic. I was in the 8th corps, as Kristen was, and for most of my corps time I didn't see or hear of anythng about women having to "submit" to the man of God in the way that Kristen was made to, or of the idea that corps men were supposed to "loosen up" sexually, as VPW presumably told LCM. The lockbox was kept pretty tightly closed. I was on our corps camping trip (the one where we carried our live chicken dinners) in March 1978, where one night I was in a two person coed tent, and I know neither one of us had the slightest thought of anything sexual. On the other hand, Kristen's account in her book tells of the abuse that she suffered well before she went into the corps. As for me, the "loosening up" idea filtered down to me during the fall of 1979 in my final residence year at HQ in the form of a little incident. It was very minor and certainly not abuse, but as I wrote in Kristen's blog, it because one little flag to me that abuse such as Kristen accounts of COULD have happened. Speaking of those going WOW, at ROA 1978, those of us corps who were going WOW the coming year were called into the woods for a meeting and told to watch ourselves, because there had already been several abortions TWI had to pay for.

I'm not saying it didn't happen all over, I (personally) saw less of it once I got about an hour away. It seemed to be more rampant among those who had gone WOW and kept going back WOW and those who went into the corp. The rank and file of us who had kids and were just living weren't like that. I guess I got a reputation for not being approachable. I saw it happen with others. It simply didn't happen with me.

i guess i'm going to have to get that book thank you sunesis and evan for your recent posts and you know what else i felt weird from the veryfruckingbeginning but i still bought it in a way jesus

Groucho, I'm pretty sure he didn't sniff out the hidden reference I had to him on another thread in this forum..... In reference to a remark I made early in this thread about my only problem with the book, yes, it is getting worn, but still together. I have ben re reading it, trying to keep in mind that it is not just about Kristen.

Evan!...Haven't seen you in awhile...How are you my friend? ...Now back to our regularly scheduled program...

hi, keith vp weirwille himself said "things are to be used. people are to be loved." but he did not practice that sad

I haven’t read every post in this thread so forgive me if I repeat some things that have already been said. I just finished “Losing the Way” and found it well written and it definitely of interest. My biggest problem while reading it was trying to identify some of the people who she talked about. But I left early, she would have just come to Bloomington, IN as I was leaving the ministry and the fellowships there. So there were a lot of people I wouldn’t have known. So much for my discussion of the writing of the book. As to her experiences, I really do stand amazed at what was going on that I didn’t know about. I am really very sorry that she had to go through any of this. No one should be treated like a thing. I hope I don’t sound like I’m belittling her with this next statement, because I don’t mean to. I’ve learn a lot about hearing from God since I left TWI and find that He works much more in our hearts than anywhere else. As I read through her accounts I found a great many places that I believe God was working in her heart to get her out of there, but because of her teaching and our idolatry of VPW she was talked out of it and even told she was devil possessed. It is so sad to see someone taken advantage of in the name of Christianity. I am so glad she managed to get out. I have a feeling that if I hadn’t left in the mid-seventies, I would still be there.

I think that is because she did as good a job as anyone possibly could of writing as she was feeling at the time all this was happening, and not as if she were looking back so many years later. I wrote a response on her blog that I could not call her a great writer ( or say she isn't a great writer) because I am nowhere near being a literary critic. But I may have to amend that thought a little, because such a style of writing...an honest style...obviously helps the reader live someone's biographical experience. I might add...and I think I mentioned this on some other thread...that I did have a minor lesson in "loosening up" in the 8th corps that was a little flag to me that abuse such as Kristen went through could have happened.

I loved Kristen's writing style. I felt as if I were with her through all of her tragedies. She wrote just like most of us were trained to think. I loved/hated those parts because I relived a major part of my life through her writing. " The assurance I seek is in the Word. I try to feel it. I try to grasp the meaning until my mind aches.", pg 109. How many of us have done that? Trying so hard to make things make sense, but of course, don't rely on our 5 senses. blah blah blah.... Kristen, I am so saddened that you endured all the physical, mental, and sexual abuse throughout most of your life. BUT I am very thankful that you were able to get professional help. Thank you for writing this book. Thank you for telling it like it hasn't been told since the first century. Sorry, I just had to say that. Seriously, people need to know the truth. If you help just one person see VP (and others) for the lowlife that he was, I think it is worth it. I have said in other threads that TWI did not ruin my life, and it didn't. I made several decisions (based on TWI teachings or recommendations) that I have lived to regret however. I am so sorry for what so MANY precious Christians and others suffered at the hands of The Way International organization's bigwigs and littlewigs, mog wannabees, etc..

Like a needle playing a record. The record turns and the needle just stays in the groove. Too bad twi's record had sat out in the sun too long... lots of skips and repeats. Sunesis, being outside the nine dots is preferable anyway.

Thanks, Kristen. And thanks, again, Pawtucket, for keeping this site open and making stuff like this known to us. "Losing the Way" is a kind kind of touch from the Lord showing His righteous judgment because it removes the veneer of "hearsay" that so many deceptions hide behind, at whatever depth of the soul they reside. "Losing the Way" helps peel away the onion layers of deception that cloud the kindness of the soul. I think it will take for me many readings to "finish" it (if I ever will). I heard someone once say how the Lord wanted him to help ex-twi people, but he didn't really want to do that. He wanted his "new" ministry. (ex-twi people are so messy because of the depth of hurt and dirt that needs to be cleaned out.) And so many people were harmed by twi -- our families too were harmed by twi -- For my family my twi involvement made Jesus Christ look like a dangerous bad bet given my example of wagering my life and losing so dearly. This book for me is a resource to get back to the life of my soul pre-twi - pre-destruction. Back to when smiles weren't only for "face value" but sprang from happiness of the soul, where delight with God is possible. Thanks, again, Kris.

You've got that right!!! Take the gender of the victims out of the picture - and what's left is the insidious way they raped our souls.

And thank you Waysider for that incredibly descriptive and disgusting insight. :blink: I find it strange that one can be addicted to a cult but then again a workaholic is addicted to work and I've seen some athletes addicted to a sport or aspect of it. I think perhaps we as humans need some sort of structure or groove that we can fit into and move in without having to apply a great deal of thought or what we perceive as extreneous effort. After a while whatever we were doing in twi became our little groove and it made us feel good to be in that groove. It gave us a sense of accomplishment...even if we were standing still.

well, That is what started changing My mindset......AA, NA.......It was a new way of thinking. I had a very difficult time thinking differently, but going to those meetings really helped me change that. It presented me with new ways of thinking about God to. But just the every day living......being kind, considering other people and not making everything all about me. When I was in TWI, I was obsessed with being "someone"........being a great leader and maybe even some day being ordained. Oh My gosh, I so changed. I am so not the person I was when I was in TWI. Only God bring restoration to our lives....and this recovering addict is very thankful and grateful for the miracle of what has happened in my life.

Hi Everyone, Got The book on Friday, read it through the weekend. Amazing book. Kris did a great job of writing her story......I could relate to a number of things in the book, abuse, the mindset, behavior of others and myself. It now seems like eons ago that all this happened, and the book brought it all back very vividly. When I got involved with TWI, I was a very "Broken" person, spiritually, physically and emotionally. Looking for God because I knew from my childhood He truly was the answer and I had really ruined my life with alcohol, and I was very suicidal. I didn't want to accept the God of the church, I wanted something "different". I got "different"..........I got what I was looking for in The Way----or so I thought. A family! And God became very "real" to me. There were red flags along the way....things I didn't understand....well, Just like what Kris talks about in the book. Not understanding teachings, feeling like you weren't spiritual enough etc. Trying to "sell out" to the Word, but never feeling like I ever did. My drinking did decrease alot, though I was still drinking some. Feeling like I wasn't feeling....And What I was losing was "Me". Everything that was Me was either repressed or disposed of. Red Flags increased, but there was always a "reason" to ignore them. Took me to where Kris was.....so confused, and just not mentally stable at all. What I found MOST interesting was at the end, when she talks about the exit counselors etc. But She compares leaving TWI to Leaving alcohol. And talks about as with Alcohol, you can't really work on issues until you put it down. And it's the same thing with TWI, cult addiction I believe she calls it (not sure if those were the exact words). I work with people who are trained counselors and they say the same thing, cults are addictive. Being that I a recovering addict, I can see that very plainly. I switched addictions...alcohol to the cult addiction. It made me feel different in the beginning.....changed my moods......Got that "high" feeling going to advances and classes. I was addicted to it. Whenever I felt stagnant, I just went to an event to get that feeling again. But as in all addiction, it turns on you......Good in the beginning......but leads to down a road of destruction. It was hard for me to understand cult addiction, but having her talk about it confirmed to me what it was to me. Hard to accept, because I didn't want to accept the truth.....I wanted it to be "all Good", and Be the family I never had, and to fix me. It was a total illusion......The truth is hard to accept, but the truth, as it has been said, will set you free. She did an awesome job and I think that she was the one to write the book.....A groovy Christian from NY......Heard about that right off the bat when I got involved......and to hear someone who was there in the beginning relay her story....I thought it held a lot of credibility. It brought healing and insight to my life. If you haven't read it....Get it! Thanks Kris!!

No, I don't think they planned it. It just oozed from their pores like sweat from a Sumo wrestler.

So, do you think that VP et al were all back at Hdqtrs saying "let's target all those hippies because they are out of bounds with sex and drugs" they will be easy to draw into the fold? Was it a conscious effort on their part? Or do you think it was us hippies who were seeing that we were out of bounds and needed the structure (as well as father figure in many cases). I suppose it was a combination of the two. We were all at the right(wrong) place a the right (wrong?) time!!

Sunesis Said: (QUOTE):We were little kids, so many of us raised ourselves, dad drunk when he was home, mom, distant - so many of us kids were on our own at a young age. We did cut school and hop the train into the city with our buddies to hang in Tompkins Square park, our older brothers and sisters did drive us to the city, we did basically what we wanted. Many kids rarely saw their parents 'cause the parents were always out, traveling - that one kid's house that was being renovated, parents in Spain - definitely happened alot. We travelled in little gangs. I guess my point is, we were so ripe for the pickin'. Here came the father figure with the offer of the godly family who really loved you. Hanging at someone's apartment in the City, but this time as part of a loving group, with the older kids - really, it just didn't get any cooler. What an amazing intro, she captures the times and feel so well. We were so young, on our own, searching. WOW - after 35 years it's starting to make sense. Just A WEEK AGO a friend asked me why I think I wound up in a cult. It's been something I've been trying to figure out since 1986 when I left. My family thought it was because I broke up with a boyfriend of 4 years - I knew that wasn't the reason. I was the "older sibling" going into the City, etc., raising myself and my siblings. I was a "groovy christian" from the Bronx - about 25 miles south of Rye in 1973 - just missing the Dr. driving into town on his Harley days (which, of course, we all heard about - it was a legend) Thanks Sunesis - I believe that's it - the father figure that was missing. My father was not an alcoholic (although my mother probably was in those days, it was hard to tell - with the scotch on the rocks every night. It was "normal". BUT my father was Manic Depressive, hospitalized about every 3 years. My sister was Schizophrenic and committed suicide in 1967 at the age of 18 (I was 17 at the time). I was always SO proud of myself for NOT being mentally Ill in this mentally ill family so denied for a very LONG time that the Way was a cult, as that would make me less on a strong, independent person to join something like that. Well, we all know how that happens because we all have our own stories and reasons. But I think I'm finally seeing that I really needed that father figure or even more so, stabalization and focus in my life at that time. And what do you know.....there was "The Way". Thanks Kristen for the help and insight you are givng to the rest of us, along with(I'm sure) you're own healing.

Dear All, A friend who is an elder in the same (Presbyterian) church I go to is reading Losing the Way. Here is what she says, She had an abusive, alcoholic, authoritarian father. ¿Tienes esperanza? Quiero por usted y EEUU, la esperanza. In hope, Juan

This sounds like the proverbial 'any kind of attention is better than none at all'. I have been told that sometimes the abused allow it to continue even when they know it is wrong because they believe that the person abusing them is really doing it out of love. Another aspect is when the abuser convinces the abused that they are the ones causing the problem. I cant tell you how many times I have heard a battered wife say 'I deserved it'. Of course I've kind of dropped into the realm of physical abuse as well as mental, but I would think that on some level sexual abuse is similar. I have heard some people use the defense that 'she asked for it by the way she was dressed' or worse 'she asked for it by being so pretty'. I heard a father say that about his thirteen year old daughter once.

Well said, Lifted. And I will take it a step further. Shame, yes, is a big part of it. But for a little kid - especially a little kid who has been abused and neglected (and preditors are soooo very good at picking out the kids who have been abused and neglected) it is more than just shame. Mixed with that shame - causing that shame to be even greater, is the thrill that someone has finally noticed you exist. So yeah, there is a feeling that what is going on is wrong and that causes shame. There is also a feeling of being happy that someone knows you exist and on some level that happy feeling over something you know is wrong makes the shame oh so very much worse.

It's been 20 years this month that I was sent to Long Island as a WOW and here I still am!