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I have read these stories about how twi leaders have bullied, intimidated, and controlled the lives of many...I have heard the stories of broken lives, and of those who were trated so badly... Does anybody have a story about a twi leader being dragged outside and getting his a$$ kicked? I mean, with all the abuse doled out, isn't there at least one story about somebody saying, "enough is enough" and giving some limb coordinator a knuckle sandwich? A jealous husband who dragged rev. so and so out into the middle of the yard and put the boots to him? I'd love to hear a story like that!

The attrition rate is extremely high in any MLM, be it Amway, Shaklee or TWI. Wierwille knew that. That's why he pushed so hard for fresh recruits. I think he looked at what Donnie F. did with witnessing and undershepharding and thought he had struck gold. He wasn't interested in building long term relationships, despite the appearance to the contrary one might get from looking at the Corps program. He was interested in creating a dedicated sales force that could replace converts faster than they dropped off. For quite some time, his plan was vastly successful. After he died, the whole thing started to unravel because there were very few who actually understood that the whole thing was really a big scam. Had the upper leaders put their heads together, they might have come to grips with the reality of what they were involved in and created a successful business plan. Instead, they all tried to put a spiritual, Godly spin on an organization that was really nothing more than a well-oiled money machine. edit I don't think he was too overly concerned about the longevity of his scheme. As long as it lasted long enough to buy him a cushy lifestyle, that was long enough for him.

Here’s a thought provoking story – at least for me it was. It reads like a parable, but it is a true story that happened to me this week. A neighbor, Billy, was walking by while I was working in the front of my house, & he stopped to chat for a while. He’s rather shy because he had an operation when he was young in which, as he describes it, a slice of his head was taken off, and he speaks with a slur. He can’t work a job (although, he is always working his butt off around his house), and he can’t read very well. Yet, he is very in tune with the things that are going on among the people in the neighborhood, he is good with numbers & their significance, and he readily sees mechanical problems and their solutions. He was explaining all this to me, he said, because he knew I am a teacher, and he thought I might understand. He felt that his inability to read was because of the operation that he had, & that he was missing some part of his brain that was essential to reading function. Also teachers didn’t seem to spend a lot of time with his reading problems. It seemed to him that they just knew that he didn’t have the ability, so they didn’t try. I told him that the decoding abilities that he applies to what’s going on with the interactions of people in the neighborhood (IMO, one of the highest of mental functions), the significance of numbers, and mechanical problems are all the same mental functions that are applied in decoding words on a page. I was trying to encourage him that he had the ability to read. I suppose there may some mental function specific to reading over and above those other functions that he applies so well that he may have lost when he had the operation, but I also know that people with speech problems often suffer in reading development simply because they are embarrassed, appear generally slow mentally, and get left behind as other students progress. There are one or more bad reading practices that almost all bad readers share that inhibit their growth in reading development. Of course, they then also appear likewise slow, and the problem compounds itself for them. I suspect that Billy’s reading problems have more to do with identifiable problems that many bad readers have – all of which can be corrected – than the operation that he had. I was certainly willing to give it a try if he was. I was just trying to encourage him. I have other specific reason to believe Billy has the potential to read well, but I don’t want this to get too long. If this were truly a parable, I would have left out most of the above, but I wanted you to get to know Billy a little bit. Anyway, in the conversation, Billy mentioned that this was his neighborhood, & he felt good when someone was succeeding in life in the neighborhood, and he felt bad when someone was having a problem. What a Christian viewpoint I thought! It sounds like the Apostle Paul talking about the One Body, & how, when one member suffers, we all suffer, & when one member rejoices, we all rejoice. Of course, Billy wasn’t talking about the One Body; he was talking about the neighborhood, but still – what a rare and remarkable attitude! Billy said he couldn’t understand how when sometimes some of our neighbors were having a hard time of it, others put them down and just made things harder for them. Didn’t they understand that this is OUR neighborhood, & we all either enjoy it or don’t enjoy it together? We ought to help our neighbors when they have problems, not make it worse for them. Parable of the good neighbor anyone? I had these two tree stumps on either side of my garage. I cut the trees down, but I couldn’t figure out how to get the stumps out. Knowing Billy was handy at a lot of things, I asked him how. He told me how, & offered to let me use his sawzall anytime I wished. Even with the sawzall, it sounded like a real bitch of a job, getting a posthole digger in between the stumps and the concrete, dealing with the roots, etc. Anyway, I thanked him for the offer of the use of his saw, & said good night. The next day when I came home both of the tree stumps had been removed. The next time I saw Billy, I thanked him profusely. He got a bit embarrassed at the thanks – some who give very freely have a hard time receiving. Billy does receive, but he feels it very deeply. I told Billy that he is a very Christ like soul. He said, “What?” I repeated that he is a very Christ like soul. He asked, “Is that a good thing or bad?” I said it was a great thing. Billy said, “Oh, good.” Now, my question is, “Are these Christian values that Billy is living?” Tom

just wondering how much money it cost the average joe believer to stay in the way?? for example.. when the mother of my children and i took the advanced class we flew from maine to gunnison plus what it cost for all the the classes we needed to do. i hated the yearly men's advance that i would be blessed to attend etc etc etc

Does anyone know? I hope he recovered quickly.

Interesting. I was at this meeting too and always had the impression the man about to share hadn't done a thing wrong. I was mortified for him, and it contributed to my fear of speaking up honestly.

i disagree with you George, but then I am not there in TX. I have not seen our curriculums here in CO "dumbed down", and I know there is no requirement to pass a kid on to the next level in my school district. We view the students here as LEARNERS rather than boxes to be stuffed with meaningless data dumps. It works well for us. Here, many of the changes in curriculum have been driven by the business community, who want their future employees to be able to think problems through to a resolution, and to work with other employees to get the job done. These changes are in addition to the regular strong math, english and science standards. Can you point me to more than a couple of isolated stories about parent's suing for their kid's self esteem being hurt by a teacher? You speak as though it is a common practice. I have not heard of much of that anywhere, and none in CO. Is that a way of life in the courts for people in TX or something? For the record, I am quite pleased with the education my boys got in their public school years here. I do not think they were a peculiarity. I know many many many wonderful young people who are able to think, solve problems, write well, and participate in and effect change in their community. I thoroughly enjoy spending time with them, working with them, and sitting around talking with them. I am sorry you do not seem to have the same joy of doing that which I do.

hee hee...I forgot I had started this thread 5 years ago... ...but the sentiment remains the same. Oftentimes I wish that I would have cracked a few of these guys in the jaw...

I think the money thing is overdone and irrelevant, but I am personally biased on this because suring my deprogramming they (deprogrammers) tried to shave that down my throat with a lot of other stuff. They tried to add up every penny I spent, gave, would have made, etc etc, and it didn't make much impression on me. Again it is only my personal view, but I think the personal losses such as Shell has mentioned ( and BTW Kristen Skedgell as well) were much more devastating.

"Little acts of courage and rebellion" -- I know I witnessed a few of these over the years and silently cheered. When LCM tried to blame a group of us for showing up late to a Way-Pub rehearsal, and one of my fellows stood up and commented that we had tried to confirm the rehearsal time (being a special weekend we assumed the SNS scheduled might be modified but couldn't find a soul to tell us if it was/wasn't or what the new times were so we all showed up at the regular time and were, as a result, late) -- that he had, in fact, called several clergy and stage personnel and left messages to get an answer, none of whom got back with him. Man, that took COURAGE in my opinion; to stand up to Martindale, in front of others, and to point the finger at leadership. Of course, he got his face melted in return and told that he had simply been too stuck in worldly ways to realize that by asking if the schedule was changed, it was really God trying to tell him to show up early and he didn't listen. (huh???) The guy sat down and shut up but I knew him well enough to know that he really saw Craig for the blow-hard he was that day. And so did I. There were a few times, after I had already mentally left twi but was still trying to get my spouse to see the light, that my local leadership got all over me about something I did that really ticked him off, and I stood toe-to-toe with the guy (who was a full foot taller and hundred pounds heavier than I) and defended myself. He would turn all red in the face and buggy-eyed, and the calmer I stayed the more p-o'd he'd get. Until I'd finally back down just to keep him from getting too suspicious of me or from throwing me out before I was ready to leave. He always made sure these confrontations were in private or well out of earshot of other believers but in hindsight I wish I'd made sure at least one of them was done in public, just to show folks that you 'could' stand up to the pompous jerk and survive. (this is the same dude I thanked when he told me I was mark-and-avoid, lol) Ahhh... happy memories!

Oh, man... if I started tallying the cost of all the classes, subscriptions, travel, obligatory moves, and lost pay for delaying my upward career mobility for 20 years... holy crap it would just be too scary to contemplate.

i've been out for almost a coup'la years but officially only a few months a strange new phenonmenon: dreams about twi gaaaaack it's all bad, every one involves my local waycorps overseers does anyone else have waymares? oh yeah, i never had a single dream about twi until about 2 weeks ago. i was in for 23 years love, grasshopper

Oh hell yeah, how to put the $ value on all this stuff......yikes. The biggest, for me would be personal loss such as the loss of my husband, his family, my family's respect, my eldest daughter's education, a dream or 30.

That kind of math gives me a headache, but I can tell you it cost me my marriage. I can't put a price on that.

classes, advances, ROA's, gifts and abundant sharing for 10+ years--$$Alot$ poor financial decisions based on way thinking---$ a ton $ therapy and other things to clear my mind----$ a truckload $ loss of income and decades in delay of professional development--- $ a freakin sh!tload $ Plus Im probably forgetting a bunch of things.... 1.5 mil is probably not that far off

I read a Dr. Phil book recently (yes, I know he is not the know-all, end-all, but interesting anyhow). And in this book, he said we should do "What works" instead of "What's right". I'm sure he didn't mean we should go out there and do wrong. But I think the point is that our concept of right-and-wrong is likely to be skewed, and if something isn't working, then we should re-examine the personal values behind it. Maybe it's our skewed thinking. Well, I know for a fact that TWI skewed or screwed my thinking about what's right and wrong. Nowadays, it's hard to make some decisions because of this. It may seem like something is reasonable to do - or not to do - but then TWI doctrine or some twisted interpretation of Biblical principals will pop up in my head, and ........ I'm lost. Prior to my TWI days, I was good at decision-making. Anybody else have this problem? -Pat

Best post ever.

$59.50? did you include inflation and interest?

$59.50 Take it or take a hike.

When you include lost investment opportunities, lack of career development, education avoidance, destruction of professional networks etc etc etc etc. It's gotta be in the millions for a lot of folks.

O. k. I am sharing my top secret recipe. Back at the Memorial Day cookout we had at mom's I made this. Many folks said this was the best part of the meal. I make this once or twice a week during the summer at home. 6 to 8 small yellow squash cut into rounds 1 large white onion cut into rounds 2 large tomatoes, (home grown the best) quartered then quarters cut in half 8 ounces (at least) sour cream salt and pepper, more pepper than salt 2 bay leaves A little bit of each minced: basil, parsley, oregano and thyme a dash or two of red pepper flakes spinach noodles Cook spinach noodles. Place bay leaves in water and allow to simmer, covered, for one minute. Place squash and onion in steaming basket, place in steamer (pot, whatever)and cook for one minute covered. You want the bay leaves aroma to saturate the veggies. Remove from cooking and turn veggies into mixing bowl. Remove bay leaves. Gently mix salt, pepper, sour cream and herbs into veggies. Then very gently fold tomatoes into mixture. Bake, covered, at 350 degrees for 20 minutes. If you bake it uncovered it will dry out. Yuk!!! Serve casserole on spinach noodles. The boy hates tomatoes and squash but loves this casserole. I don't like squash but I love this recipe. Something about cooking the squash and tomatoes and sour cream together gives it a delicious flavor. When I made this at the Memorial Day cookout everybody wanted to know what kind of cheese was in the casserole. No cheese just sour cream. If you have to use grocery store tomatoes refer to my earlier post about how to prepare them. Then use them in this recipe.

"A New Kind of Christian" is the first of a trilogy. I'm now reading book 2: "The Story We Find Ourselves In".

One year a group of us went through three years of math books. For the following 2-3 years we redid those same math books. What was the point of that? What do you think we did with all that "free time"?

More LEAD threads. "LEAD" " Lead, Total Fitness Institute and John Summerville" " The dangers of Lead" But the first one Waysider linked, IMHO, was more relevant. Although I had my say more in the thread I linked called "LEAD" than in the others, I think. Not directly on LEAD, but related to things we were stupid enough to agree to, is this thread: "Foolhardy behavior"

The government caused the problem by changing teaching standards so that students pupils are no longer required to learn anything. They have to be passed regardless of achievement, because God forbid we should hurt their feelings. States, like Texas, with so-called achievement tests, continually dumb them down, and then the teachers only prep kids for those tests. (I'm generalizing here, of course; there ARE teachers who try to instill a love for learning, but the political deck is stacked against them.) The courts (which are part of the government) encourage this behavior. I haven't read the "College grad sues school" thread, but it doesn't surprise me in the least. As for suing the parents of unruly kids, it's not what I would really like to see. But if people are no longer afraid of parents and teachers, at least they're still afraid of LAWYERS! George

We were warned?... The entire way ministry was based on Wierwille's claim that God spoke audibly to him..."I will teach you the word as it has not been known since the first century if you will teach it to others"...the snow on the gas pumps story...When Vic made this claim in piffle, it was the lightning bolt that exploded in people's minds...it was the HOOK. This drunken schmuck was God's chosen one! If you questioned him, you were gone. 13 years after I first took piffle...I was confronted by twi leadership and asked if I disagreed with "dr" wierwille (this was 2 years after he croaked)...I said yes and was considered to be a spiritual leper. Looking back, I can honestly say that questioning wierwille was the same as being "out of fellowship"...warned?...what? are you kidding me?

Just how did the Government cause the problem?

Don't give them any other GREAT ideas...George....they caused the problem to begin with and now they'll get paid for it???? OMG!

Actually a lot of us were warned - just that we weren't willing to listen to warnings from our parents - as Doojable said - idealism and arrogance.

I've read the criticism of McLaren's philosophy or theology (whatever you want to call it). He's not a Bible thumper - and I like that.

I like that, geisha. I don't think I'll ever do for an author what Oprah does, but who knows?

Although I am not a big fan of the emergent church movement. . . and I am a little familiar with Mclaren's book series. . . . it is not really my thing. But. . . I just wanted to say what a really cool idea you have here. You could call it . . . . Tzaia's Book Club. I will be interested in what you pick next. . . . maybe I could then join in. . . . I tired to read his Finding Faith?? maybe??. . . can't remember the name. . . but, I kept waiting for the point. . . . it was too frustrating for me. I am not a post-modern thinker. . . . can't get my head around it. I just think this communal book reading is a great idea though and wanted to lend my words of support.

o. k. gc, you get lots of rain in England. Rub it in, honey girl. We are having the typical southeastern dog days. I should have kept my mouth shut a few days back about it being cooler and less humid than usual. All I know to tell you, gc, is that in our area we know to stay out of the greenbean patch when it is wet because of the chance of brown rust. Actually, I remember my grandmother lamenting over the wet garden when she knew she needed to get out there to pick. She always said, "you don't galivant through the garden when it is wet." Funny, the little things one remembers. Anyway, the local university extension service advises the same thing for our area. If the garden is wet because of recent rainfall I know to stay out. I wish that was the case at this moment. The wetness does seem to affect the more bushy plants in rows close together. I suppose in your area the veggies are acclimated to the wet ground and not affected.

Brainfixed, does your relative have a library card to the local county/city library? My local library has a gazillion dvd and vcr videos on how to decorate a cake to roofing your own house to oil painting to sewing. I am a big advocate and supporter of the library. There are shelves and shelves of dvd and vcr movies, documentaries, and music cd's. No charge. A precious little library card is all it takes. Wish all of life was that simple. Some years ago I came upon a traffic check. I could not find my driver's license. I was crazy because I could not imagine why I would not have my license with me. I pulled out a couple of other ID's. The officer was hmmm hmmm, yes ma'am, yes ma'am. I showed him my library card and he said o. k. you are good, you can go!!!!! I tell folks this story and they think I am lying because in our state you go to jail, plus $250.00 fine, if you don't have your driver's license in your posession while driving.

My grandma grew Kentucky Wonder and Blue Lake (pole greenbean) and Contender (bush greenbean). I grow Contender. I have to tell you when everything else seems to fail in my garden the Contender sails on through. I didn't grow greenbeans last year because I wanted 2 varieties of butterbeans. I really missed the greenbeans last year because I had to buy them to make vegetable soup. The bush bean does seem to produce all at one time but if you are diligent to not give up on them and fertilize them well after the initial harvest they will produce prolifically again. I save two bushes that I do not pick from to get seed for next year. Just remember to stay away from the greenbeans when the leaves and ground are wet. They do not like that and are susceptible to Brown Rust. This can really affect the soil for the next couple of growing seasons if you plant beans in that same area. I picked a 5 gallon bucket of tomatoes today. Yeh, uh huh, uh huh!!!!! I think I will sleep with them by my bed, tonight!! Thank God for tomatoes!!! XOXOXO

Well if Saul/Paul was hallucinating then give me some of that. Was his hallucinations involved in the writing of the epistles? There may have been some PJ involved.

Brain, now that I re-read your post I think I understand a little more. I was being a smarty hiney in my previous post. I am one of these that has to read stuff and think about it. I didn't do that when I read your post. I am sorry I was so flippant. People don't take Elvis sightings seriously. They only wish it was so. Before you know it there will be Michael Jackson sightings. There has yet to be a sighting of Martin Luther King, Jr. I can't imagine why. He passed before Elvis. And of all the greats in our lifetime....JFK. Why are there no sightings of him? Heck, I have grown to the point in my life if someone wants to believe in this or that who am I to argue with them..? Live and let live. I am ready, though, to give answer as to why I belive as I do. Life for me is all about loving folks...may not agree with or believe with but I know one sure thing...next paragraph... Life sucks the big green weenie (a family definition) sometimes and a lot of the time for a lot of folks. Right or wrong people hold on to what holds them. That is faith. Having lived so much of this big green weenie I am right there with everybody.

I am a greens kind of girl!!! Turnip greens (minus the turnip, yuk) and collard greens are a winter staple for us. Bring on the pot likker, baby!!! I am gonna research the beet thing and how to grow it in my area just because you attest to the greens, waysider. Never let it be said that I let a greens get past me.

When referring to the herb garden I meant the annuals. I broke down and watered/fertilized the dill and basil. I am hoping for a comeback. The perinnial's (sp?)are forging on. Nothing seems to faze them. Oh, I planted Crowder Peas this past weekend. The mean little beetle that likes to forge on them is now past.

Bramble, so sorry about your garden. Our weather has been crazy too. This time of year we are accustomed to the feeling of a hot wet towel wrapped around the face when we are outside. But it has been so mild. The temps only in the high eighties and low nineties and not the humidity we use to. I have a feeling August may make up for it with a vengeance. We have actually been driving with the windows down. Picked butterbeans today. One thing I have noticed this year with the early rains concerning the herb garden. When it produces, it produces then is nearly spent when the rain slacks.

gc, black eyed peas are for luck and collard greens are for dollars. I plant enough collard greens the end of August to last us all winter long. Oh, honey everybody, I have maters and more maters. There is no greater delicacy than a homegrown tomato sandwich. So far, I have blanched and put in the freezer 10 quarts of greenbeans and 4 quarts of squash. We have to quit eating the tomatoes so we have some to can. There was bushes of Dill, Basil, Italian parsley, Tarragon, and Thyme to sell at the farmer's market. Because the new herb garden was so prolific I decided on a whim to give it a try. All the herbs were sold. All of the cut Zinnias and sunflowers were snatched up within minutes. All this has me thinking bigger and better for next year.

There are some interesting threads here concerning Momentus...I think that it's very revealing that Lynn and others involved themselves with this sinister form of psycho toilet training... anybody want to get into the lifeboat?

Unfortuately, it seems that whenever I think back to being residence in the corps, not about the laughs shared with friends, but "doing" the abnormal daily routine, most of what I remember was reproof sessions, complete with strained eyeballs and bursting jugulars. Particularily during and after lunch (lovingly referred to as dinner). Ex, I too wish we could go through that now. I think I'd rip more than an arm band off. What a bunch of F-heads. Is it any wonder Way "membership" is so lean?? Who in their right mind would consider it Godly to be the subject of these insane rantings? Yes indeed, LCM's choice use of words sure inspired me, sure set a godly example. The fact he was selected to "lead" the ministry is proof enough to me that the Selector, the Creature, Box 328 New Knoxville, OH 45871, was as spiritual as his own testicles. Deck the halls with his balls this wonderful Holiday season ... CHMF.

another thing. i have a problem with subtle arrogance. even if they don't have a big mouth. but that's another story ;)--> ?

loving ? humble ? pleading ? what the heck was he doing in the way ? ;)--> i don't mean that really against nice people i meant that against arrogant leaders ?

what the phhhhhhhuuuuuuuuuuuccccccccccckkkkkkkkkkk was his problem ? LOVE you say ? ?

okay well i gotta say thank you oak for re-posting this because i skimmed right over it before in the other thread (oh and thank you cherished child) this may sound arrogant but no way do i mean it to be AT ALL when i was "in," this kind of lashing out was reserved for the frikkin way corps ~ meaning now that you sold your soul (with your loving sponsors' money) you are able to handle this kind of sh!t. just ask a few here what happened at microphones OHMYGOD so i see the cruelty became more common for wows, whoever i gotta say though that i love this guy for ripping off his armband. i would love to have ripped off my nametag and said %@*!_(##!_ to the men in the golden chairs but i thought i was privileged to get yelled at or watch others.... (not really, made me sick) sooooooooooooooooooo boy would i love to be able to go back in time and grab that microphone now. it would be so much fun to confront veepee publicly about his "personal" walk.... ?