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What is the purpose of having linder, his clone and the white vans? Really.. what is left on grounds that is even worth protecting? Normally, remote farmland in Ohio does not warrant this level of care. what's left.. the fountain? Are they afraid of aged hippie types making odd, unusual pilgrimages to the "holy" woods? maybe they are afraid of someone parking a non-authorized wowmobile in one of the parking lots, and leaking half a quart of oil or transmission fluid. perhaps they have tons of hoarded gold bullion on grounds.. maybe stockpiles of firearms, ammunition, long term food store..to protect. That would at least make sense. But I tend to think more that having some kind of security force present helps foster their illusion that they are anything but a second or third rate, insignificant pathetic little club.. Two local country clubs here.. who have more acreage, which is far more valuable than acreage in rural ohio, have no security force that I have ever seen. I've walked right across the golf course.. no white vans, no goons trying to run me off.. no calls to the sheriff or police.. I suppose one could ask linder. What possible reason do they want to secure something that resembles a gold plated turd, more than a treasure? he'd probably answer.. "it's a living.."

I still want to know more about this miraculously cut grass.. is it anything like the miraculously clean parking lots? You know..have executive type assigned it's oversight.. an "all nine all da time" kinda fella.. *spiritual* enough to catch the deluge of oil and transmission fluid from wowmobiles, *ahem* waydisciplemobiles, into designated bins, before said contamination even hits the pavement..

Miraculously cut grass.. http://www.allmusicals.com/lyrics/camelot/finaleultimocamelotreprise.htm

Twice in my life I have said (or thought) that if this is what Christianity is all about, then I don't want any part of it. The first time I said that was when someone told me that God had made my son sick because we weren't giving our full 15%. I think you all can guess the context of that occasion. The second time I thought it was late last summer after point-blank telling one of my old boyfriends who had "looked me up" on Classmates and invited me to be his "friend" on Facebook, that without dealing with some things in our past, that there could be no present "relationship" however superficial, which caused him to promptly block me. At the time, I thought it was kind of strange that a "committed" Christian who preached love, forgiveness, and doing the right thing reacted like that. So I tried again to help him understand that I believed that part of living a Christian life was making amends. His idea was that since he was a Christian, that I was supposed to move on. God had forgiven his sin; so should I. My experience with this particular person is not unlike the experience that some women here had with leadership, in that they were used by leadership sexually. I believe that these men (and women) who used others sexually within TWI owe the people they hurt a direct apology. I don't blame those who have experienced direct abuse at the hands of leadership for continuing to be hurt and angry by what happened to them. This kind of abuse is not (IMO) covered in a one apology covers all, or by invoking some kind of "bygones" mentality. The same thing applies in my situation. I really don't care if you've confessed it to God - I didn't hear it. I think it is unbelievably complacent to think that God doesn't pay attention to that kind of attitude. So I started thinking that I really did not want to align myself with a religion that doesn't take to heart the commandment to love God and love your neighbor at its most basic level. In my opinion, Christianity has fallen miserably short in this area. Since then, I have immersed myself in the study of philosophy, religion, and world religions, and in doing so I have felt myself being pulled further and further from Christianity - the religion. I can't continue to be the same kind of Christian as I have been. I can't live in isolation like when I was a part of TWI; I can't live in smugness like I did when I was involved with CES; and I can't feel like I'm living a lie like I do every time I'm around my Presbyterian colleagues. Why? Because I think they pay entirely too much attention to the wrong things at the expense of the basic message of Jesus. I can't remember why I looked up this particular author, but I started reading Brian D. McLaren's "A New Kind of Christian" a couple of days ago and I find myself overwhelmed because it is addressing the very issues that I have been struggling with for almost a year - what does "good" and "sin" look like to a Christian and how is that different from how Jesus actually taught it? This is kind of my beginning of dialog on this subject. Maybe some of you have read the book, or would be interested in reading it and talking about it more.

I don't know about you, but my car was banished to gravel lot. Wasn't worthy of parking on that fancy asphalt stuff. every blade of grass is the exact same height. Natural man couldn't pull that off. It must be from a spiritual source i.e. the operation of h.s. in the renewed mind in the household. You're not on Staff to work ya know. Monkeys can work. You're there to operate the manifestations. ever watch these idiots come in to take the Advanced Class? They'll walk up and down Wierwille road to check on the grass blade height. Then they'll come back glowing like Moses down from Mt. Sinai. "All the blades are the same height!! OMG!!" Of course, if they don't come back years later on a Way Run, they call. Now, those are some funny conversations.

For me at least while I was in you never heard that stuff except from Corps and advanced class grads.. so I think you are correct it was voiced and only to the (More Committed) :wacko: I do believe it was changing though in early 80's as the Homosexual rants were just starting.

I finished book 2 and started on book 3 - the book about "hell". Book 2 was ok. I might need to read it again to "get" it. Book 3 was revolutionary in how he believes Jesus deals with the subject of hell. Since I had done some research on various afterlife belief systems, his discussion of the history of afterlife beliefs was similar to my understanding. Two major points - he believes in salvation by grace. He also believes in judgment based on "works". He believes judgment will not be about how well you worked the word, how right you had the doctrines, or even how much you "spread" the word, but how well you aligned your life to live according to Jesus' kingdom on earth message. Very interesting perspective.

When those guys came around we were told they were to be on the ground in cuffs. Never happened. Linder did possess the power to caste the devil spurts out of them. He didn't bother though, because they didn't keep their heads on the werd. So, as soon as they were caste out, the dang spurts would just jump back in again, causin' all sorts of silliness. See how this works? On second thought, let's not go to Camelot . . . It is a silly place . . . I take that back, I forgot, yes it did.

An interesting one, this. What do we know about her early life? If what has been said is actually true (and none of us really do know), she must have been a feisty sort of young woman, - she trained to be a nurse, didn't she, and ran away with VPW because her parents disapproved of the marriage? [How wise her parents were!] When did they get married? How long was it before the first child came along? Having children may have made it much harder to leave, for many reasons. They had several children before he went to India, before he split with his denomination and set up on his own/founded TWI. The alleged incident with one of his parishioners resulting in her pregnancy would have taken place before he founded TWI and surely she cannot have been unaware of it (if it happened). [Didn't Rhoda come from that church background too? (Or was that Dorothy?) Hmm. What did they know, do they get a free pass too?] Was Dotsie his first victim? Or was she complicit? At what point does one denounce one's own husband? She knew where he'd got much of his material from. How many "live classes" of PFAL must she have been aware of or sat through, before it was recorded? In later years, she saw more and more people, especially young women, being drawn into TWI. She knew about his shenanigans with Corps women; one poster here says she held her hand as she sobbed after being assaulted. Yet never did she say anything. Abused women do, time after time, leave - then return - to their husbands; accept the husband's trifling opinion of them; believe themselves worthless; enjoy the public presence whilst fearing the private presence. How many victims of abuse do go on to become abusers themselves? There comes a point when a victim ceased to be just a victim and becomes an abuser or abets an abuser, and becomes culpable themselves. Huh, even VPW said, "Don't judge a man till you've walked a mile in his shoes" (not, of course, his original thought). Perhaps he was thinking, "Don't judge Dotsie till you know what's happened to her." (Though it was probably more like, "Don't even think of judging me!") God is the searcher of hearts....

Dooj, as I recall it was not literally about childbirth, it was about seeing results from your labors. I certainly don't remember anything about bovines. WG

Perhaps. I'm stretching my memory as well too.. but I can't remember a single publication where one could quote portions and say "what happened to your prediction?" I never heard the current psychological hoax tape. Maybe the Belezian group has a copy.. generally though, I think he chose these psychotic rants for noon meals and such, to more of a closed corporation. or "privileged" teaching for advanced class and such. Same idea..

Ham, you are asking me to stretch my memory beyond the breaking point... But weren't some of these conspiracy theories discussed in the tape from the 70s, The Current Psychological Hoax? It's been forever, but I seem to remember him going into some of them there. And I'm thinking that Jeremiah (a really old tape -- 60s or early, early 70s) had some of that content in it, as well. If I have either of those titles wrong, my apologies.

Witnessing this person doing the things he does as Tom pointed out is also done quite often yet not noticed. Tom saw it as a christian value, which is not bad. A hindu would see it as a hindu value. A jew would see it as a jewish value. and so on.... This value is not exclusive as I'm sure Tom and all know. The value itself is not determined by one religion or another. I'm just trying to say that I think Tom's point is about the value seen, and not about a religion or no religion, christian or whatever.

Aside from the local doing way runs, there's the ex-wayfers. Some come to gaze upon the fountain, smell the hedge-protected air, and run their fingers through the miraculously cut grass. Others, like McBlah, come to make a stink. Still others, uh, . . . they uh, off their meds . . . The Way really must have done them in good.

The idea of subjective morality is very problematic. . . . . . the discussion of evolutionary morality vs. a moral law giver is probably more relevant. . . . . it acknowledges the existence of value to begin with. . . the idea of a moral vacuum is one thing. . . no morality another. Evil exists. . . I could give you graphic examples. . . good exists. . . Tom gave us a nice example. . . I could give you many more. . . they are not the same thing. . . something in us allows us the ability to tell the difference. Where it comes from and what it is. . . . therein lies the debate. :)

Honestly not sure what you are posting about Bolshevick, so I'll pass your post, perhaps another will hop right on it. I was talking about 'branding/marketing' equating a word Christian with "good." Or I could have used neighborly, or decent. or giving. whatever Branding is about the sound bite, the immediated reference or connotation, not the depth of an issue. Is it really a good idea to take the word Christian, a large, diverse belief sysem, and brand it 'good, neighborly etc until the word Christian would equate to a value like neighborly? We here at GSC already know that not all things labeled Christian are actually good or neighborly, some are destructive to their followers. Obviously I am not communicating what I was trying to say. I give up. Things to do. But I did think Billy sounded like a great guy.

I thought the real "deceiver" died @25 years ago. If thousands are still following, are they a deceiving people? Don't they believe they are doing good? If twi was not a "good" organization, that implies that there are "good" organizations out there. Word and values constantly change meaning. What's the goal of "being good"? Does that even mean anything?

I agree, things and words have value. If all things and organizations labeled Christian are also equally labeled good then how does that help anyone? While all Christian organizations and people SHOULD be good, not all are! Isn't that pretty much the point of GSC? A group that self labled "Christian, Bible study, The Way etc" was not a good organization--but it used the labeling of organizations that SHOULD be good. It was deceptive. Why not let Christian be a descriptor word for a belief system, that whole huge system that covers many different groups and people?

Laws are arbitrary, yes. Love is an illusion, yes. Like religion, it causes people to wierd things. Why do we have to define good and evil? Don't we just end up redefining everything 5 minutes later? Billy simply did what Billy wanted to do. It was neither good, nor bad, nor Christian, nor non-Christian. His motives cannot be explained or labeled other than he did what he was convinced would benefit himself in some way. Sorry I misunderstood what you mean by "droll"

"How droll" is an observation. . . not a pejorative or questioning of your response. The only way it becomes one is if you assign it a motive. We wouldn't want to that, because we may then have to define something. Conversely, Bloshevik, rapists, pedophiles, murderers, abusers, and drug dealers must not be labeled as bad, according to the line of reasoning you propose. So, let's empty the prisons of violent offenders. . . doesn't seem fair. Although we do have incarcerated those who would kill someone for the change in their pockets. . . who is to say this is wrong? Laws are so arbitrary. What makes the choice of a life partner important? One person is no different from another. . . . why love someone more? Animal attraction? If so, why marry? We would have to define someone's attributes better than another. . .to desire to share our lives with them. . . no? Reasoning it out. . . . love is actually an illusion because defining value would be necessary. Sorry, but, we must place value on things. . . define good. . . and evil. . . it has to come from somewhere. . . BTW. . . the option of being "fooled" vanishes when we cease to define or underscore something as right. . . or good.

It's true. Ever see the video of wild animals nursing wild animal babies of other species? Our behaviour is not unique.

Nothing. They behave the same as everyone else.

Yes, to give weight by underscoring something as good is just silly. . . and in fairness. . . defining or underscoring something as bad is equally as inane. . . so. . . . what was the problem with TWI? How droll.

These are animal "values". It's favored because the population as a whole benefits.

YES!!!!!..........i was there for the entire glorious thing!.......got there early........wednesday before, and stayed at a friends father's retreat camp............which was being used by an hassidic jewish congregation.......who did not "mix" with the wild, music jammin', naked hippies who invaded the empty owner's quarters..........we were "evicted" thursday evening, and showed up at yasgur's farm late thursday night...........where we stayed until the following monday evening, celebrating the entire four days of love peace, music, drugs, rain, mud, and a moment in history never to be repeated in this country!..........one of the greatest times of my life..........unforgettable and life-altering!............can't believe it's been 40 years!!!!!!!!............woodstock, though much shorter in time, was worth more than all my years in twi!.....................peace.

Tom asked: This is the lifestyle that God and the Lord Jesus would have us live...helping one another. Just helping, out of a pure heart and with no expectation of reward. Jesus makes the point that even "sinners" know how to be nice to other people; his "value" was that we should love our enemies. Who's a "sinner" in this context? Well, that's another topic. And as we all know, Jesus wasn't a "Christian." Jewish values, then? Luke 5:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. 32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. 33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. 34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. 36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. But in any event, it's not a uniquely Christian/Jewish value, to be supportive of one's neighbor. For poorer or subsistence-level tribes, it may be the only way they can live at all. Bravo Billy for his uncomplicated goodness of heart. He's a great example. Tom, can you offer mutual help ... like reading lessons?

If Jesus is Lord over all. . . and Christian's don't actually make Him Lord, but are simply confessing and acknowledging who He really is. . . and these are values He espouses. . . love your neighbor. . . wouldn't they then be human values? These are things we admire in anybody(or should). . . no matter their faith. . . why is that?

God first hi Tom and others this blessed me and I read a while back it blessed me this seems he ready love people and that what all about love Roy

TWI always liked the appearance of being something big. VP's plane, presidential seal, etc. This is probably one more attempt at looking like a real organization not some cornfield cult. JT

Mall Cop!

When I was at Emporia, my job for one block was to walk around in all the buildings and look for burned out light bulbs. That job was purposeful. Yessiree, I felt reeeealy useful! Good thing I had a college education or I might have accidentally put a 40-Watt where there should have been a 60-Watt. I mean, there were no directions or anything, one just had to instinctively know. I had to make sure I utilized CP #1 too. I mean, what if there were a burned out bulb in a hallway in Kenyon for more than a day? That could have been the one impediment that would rupture the entire fabric of the universe. Lord knows there weren't very many lights on at HQ. They never replaced me after I moved on to bigger things, like painting coffee cans red so they could be used for discarding cigarette butts (smoking was allowed back then). You know, it took a crew of 7 of us to paint those butt cans? So, Bolshevik, do you need any more proof of just how purposeful every, and I mean every, job was in The Way International?

ewwww

for that matter.. I wonder how linder feels about that..

heh.. I wonder how linder's wife feels about that..

They're protecting Linder's job. Probably gives Rosie a nice warm feeling to have him around. They also have that huge "vault" full of audio and videotapes of VPW. Gotta protect it even if you don't use it.

you know Ham . . . I don't know. What job at HQ served any purpose?

Think about how close it is to the infamous "Hanger 18" at WPAFB. In fact, here is a little known recording of the original Vesper Chimes Hour that was recently unearthed in The Way Woods.

No surprise there, coming from a guy who thinks women should not hold leadership positions.

I have the book now......probably start serious reading tomorrow.

Hippocracy has never been one of my favorite things. Rather something I learned to despise from my youth. To say one thing and do another is totally off the mark. I know I've been guilty of it, but not because I deliberately tried. I just read a few reviews of your book, Tazia, and it sounds good to me. I'm going to try to get it over this weekend and although discussing books is something I haven't done (in a good way) since school, I think I'd be interested in doing so with you.