Leaderboard

Or, for something completely different along these lines, there's a very compelling argument for doing away with bible study altogether in a "shocking" book called The End of Biblical Studies (gasp!) by Hector Avalos, PhD. Prometheus Books. 2007. Just sayin … there is an alternative viewpoint for those interested in questioning the value of continuing to hammer away at biblical texts in hopes of recreating "the original." Even if we did reach that goal, what would we have? A text that still contains contradictions (four different viewpoints in the 4 gospels), violence against "unbelievers," in the Hebrew Bible, condemnation of homosexuals, subjugation of women, etc. Just sayin … let's take a look at bibliolatry and get honest about that. Perhaps this is a topic for the Doctrinal thread. Sigh …

As many of you know, I stepped back from active management of GSC a few years back. I left the management in capable hands. I had a nervous meltdown. Disagreement turned into verbal battles. I always wanted this place to be a safe haven for those that left or was in the process of leaving or was thinking of leaving. This would be a place of solace. Lately, for some, attacking seems to be the color of the day. Why the need to attack? Why the need to call people names. My attitude has been if you are getting in vicious place, step away from the keyboard! The internet is rampant with vicious bravery behind a wall of anonymity I only have one word to those guilty of this, Stop! At least on this site. And as an aside, the hosting company has been double billing me, we are trying to work this out. If the site is not accessible in the next few days, don't worry.

Hello all, This is my first comment after finding these forums a few weeks ago. I was born in 1982 into a family that was part of TWI; my parents were part of a twig group in the Houston area. From what I understand, my family and a big chunk of people in the Houston area broke off and started a splinter group sometime in the mid to late eighties. My mom and stepdad kept most of that info from us, but I remember them warning my sister and I not to answer any questions regarding PFAL materiel if someone came knocking at the door. The day I turned 18 I left and never went back to a fellowship. This caused a great stress between my mother, stepfather, and I and I went nearly a decade without talking to them. Between then and now I have put in work to try to build a relationship with them, but it is a very small slice of my life that I can share with them or that they can share with me without treading into religious waters. Despite that, I felt like I have been on the right track with them showing up for weekly dinners and starting to get to know them a little bit again. That is, until my sister died last month. It was a horrible accident and she was far too young in her mid 30's. I took on the bulk of the funeral planning, as hospitality and events is my profession. It was really difficult to plan because it forced me to negotiate with them about how much their religion would be involved in the service. We decided on a non-secular event hall, which was easy because they would have had an issue going anywhere with any other kind of religion involved. The tough part is that they wanted their reverend to speak for an hour of the 2 hour service. I fought tooth and nail to get it down to 15 minutes, which they agreed to. He spoke for 40 minutes. It was so difficult sitting through his angry sermon, where he was talking about drinking blood, speaking in tounges, and then pitching people taking PFAL classes. WTF. I left so angry. For the first time I started examining how TWI and their offshoot really effected me and the people I love in my life. I grew up feeling extremely emotionally and physically isolated from the outside world, and I am just now (in my late thirties) figuring out how to come to terms with that. I am married and have a good job, but that has taken serious work. I have a hard time really opening up and connecting with people although I yearn for it and work for it daily. My dad was excommunicated after he and my mother divorced (she cheated on him with their TWI marriage counselor). This probably had to do with my dad being gay :P. He hid his sexuality from my sister and I because he knew it meant we wouldn't get to see him. He never missed a child support check even though he was broke and despite constant pressure from my mom/stepdad and TWI pressuring him to cut ties. Once he finally came out, my mom and stepdad really freaked out because they are convinced he has devil spirits. For just under two decades they have had a cool relationship with each other, only talking when it had something to do with my sister or I. During the funeral they were cordial during the planning process, but cool during the funeral. Anyone former TWI or current offshoot would ignore my dad and his partner of 25 years. People who he has known for decades just pretended he wasn't there. After I spoke my heart at the funeral speaking about my sister and her life, I started getting the same treatment. It turns out I offended people by talking about her dad and his partner in the eulogy. That made me feel angry and sad. It also made me feel proud for speaking my mind to a group that didn't want to hear from me. Anyway, I am sorry for the word soup and I hope that I haven't gone way off topic here. I am just looking for information now. I am researching the people who I know are in their group now. I want to figure out what offshoot they are a part of and where all this PFAL money is going, considering it isn't supported by TWI anymore. My parents hold classes and travel regularly to hold and attend retreats. I am dying to know how big the splinter is that they are a part of. I want to learn more and face this. Does anyone know of any major offshoots that have a strong presence in the Houston area? Am I allowed to list names in this group to see if any of you know any of these people? Thank you all. It has been fascinating learning about your experiences.

I do have something to say on this topic. In 1995, as part of an elaborate ruse to terminate communication between me and someone in another state who, unbeknownst to me at the time, was being abused by clergy, myself and my husband were asked to excuse ourselves from fellowship to put ourselves under the care of Bob Darnell, but then escalated to "not being welcome at the Way" by Ohio Limb Coordinator Dave Patterson under the most dubious of circumstances. We were totally blindsided, having not done anything unseemly at all. We would get information here and there as to what was going on, with each new doctrinal atrocity being taught absolutely flooring us. We even sat in our car for six nights on that road that Bob Wierwille lived on to listen to the ROA 95 teachings on AM radio, stunned. We lived in St. Mary's, and when someone from HQ would encounter us in public, they would run away on the other side of the street or another aisle in the store, with the exception of a very few people who obviously were not totally buying into Martindale's shiite. Finally in Spring of 1996 word got to us that Martindale was talking crap about someone at Corps Night and that John Shroyer had enough and got up and walked out. Well, John was ordained and recognized as Corps but he never was in residence, and I had always admired him because he was to me always the epitome of a real pastor. A down to earth guy who took care of people, didn't preen and fawn, didn't flaunt and vaunt himself. He had been made to give up his great house in St Mary's that he had for years and sent to Florida, where really good close friends of mine raved about how well he cared for people. I was so glad that someone finally had the balls to stand up to the maniacal narcissist. I phoned John and he told me that Mike Magel, of Premiere Labels and Word in Business reknown, and Frank Connerty, of Prison Outreach had also been on Martindale's smack talking list, and gave me their numbers. It was great because Frank was right there in St. Mary's. Well, as you know, those three guys started a splinter group, the topic of this thread. The group is the Christian Family Fellowship Ministry. But I was there from the very start, and I can tell you at the beginning it did not follow the track that John Lynn, and Vince Finnegan, and Dan Moran, and a lot of these other clowns took. For starters, it wasn't John's idea. He and had Maryann moved back to Ohio. At what point, I don't know- I don't know if they had already been called back when he walked out of the service, because I know that in August of 1996 Bob Moynihan sent out a monthly newsletter in Florida calling John a "Unfaithful Servant" because Gail Winegarner visited us in St. Mary's with his son Fritz and showed it to us. (Gail called Bless Patrol "The Gestapo.") John was working for a water softener company, selling water softener units. To my knowledge, he had always had a job for most of his life, even though he was ordained clergy. Getting back on topic, it was Mike Magel's idea to start a ministry. Premiere Label was the label company he had sold (if memory serves) that he talked about at Word in Business in 1993. When the non-compete was fulfilled, he started another label company, Star Label. He told John that if John wanted to start a ministry, Mike would back him. John said let's just do a fellowship. So, a handful of us started meeting in the lunchroom Star Label every Sunday. We wanted it, there was no hard sell or coaxing. People were hurting because they were getting kicked out and abused left and right. There was a book titled "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse: Recognizing and Escaping Spiritual Manipulation and False Spiritual Authority Within the Church" by Jeff Van Vonderen that John recommended. It really summed up what The Way used to recruit, retain, and abuse followers, and the template is applicable to many types of abusive relationships. Before you knew it, the lunch room was not big enough, a place had to be rented, and people from other states were constantly contacting John. Yes, they made the decision to incorporate, but they also made it flexible, so that if they needed to add or change, they would do it. I was an eyewitness for the first few years, and they definitely kept it real. Of course, my regular involvement predated before all the lurid details of VPW's sexual predation coming out; Kevin and Sarah Guigou first started coming around in late 1997. I was regularly active up until I divorced and left Ohio in February of 1999, when I went to New Jersey and then onto South Africa. After that, I would make it back whenever I was in the states for large scale events or visiting Ohio, getting down to the fellowship center that was built and dedicated in 1998, a modestly sized building. My last visit was in 2006, after a five year absence, and having not seen John for four years since he had visited New Jersey. He passed away a few weeks later. Judging from the website, there seems to be more of an element of rigidity to the group now than there was when he was alive; I remember on the day of the dedication in 1998, him talking about that what was important was how a person lived, and treated other people, and so what if someone believed in the trinity. He said it was okay to believe in the trinity. He used to also make a point of saying it didn't matter if people didn't tithe, that it wasn't a requirement. In 1998 he published a booklet titled "Compassion." something I used to gift people, something no one has ever complained about receiving, regardless of their religion. He also once suggested people read the book "In His Steps" Really, what John posited people do was so opposite of what had been indoctrinated by the Way, and a lot of the splinters. I can honestly say that with him, it was never about the money. PS/Addendum: Hey, Michael Fort, if you ever come here to lurk, I just want you to know that every time I've ever heard Bob Dylan sing "Like A Rolling Stone" for the past 24 years, I thought of you, because I knew your day was going to come. And Oh, By the way, fornicate you.

I’m so !$#%ing proud of you Leah. You’ll find your freedom in unconditional self love. Keep going sister, you are not alone.

That's the thing about being ensnared in a cult for 30-45 years.......all of your "support systems" are cult-related whereas business/community systems are deemed "worldly" or anathema. So, even though you exit mothership-cult....victims are grasping at any support floating by and voila, another splinter cult just happens to extend a "helping hand." And, for many.....all those years of distancing themselves from "earthly family" doesn't help. Or, by now......parents are deceased and relatives are complete strangers. At gatherings, weddings and funerals.......it is quite possible that you bump into two or three ex-wayfers who are each involved in a different splinter cult. But hey..... as long as they're not involved with *The Way International* then they lock arms with fellow-comrades who "saw the light and got out." The real rogue individuals are NOT those who have no affiliation with any splinter group but ........THOSE WHO PULL THE CURTAIN BACK ON WIERWILLE'S PLAGIARISM, PROPAGANDA AND PREDATORY WAYS TO SPOTLIGHT THE CON. Welcome to GSC......where the rubber meets the road, Defiant Rogues Inc.

Published on YouTube, May 28, 2019 Maybe the R&R group would be interested in knowing whether there really is something to restore.

I entered Nursing School in 1990, and began working as a GN in 1992. I went on to get certified in Wound care/Ostomy (WONC), Nephrology (CNN) and Psychiatric Nursing Pharmacology. I was also an OR RN. Best educational and career decision I ever made!

I was in the Ministry from 75 onward, knew you as the Trunk coordinator, I know that when his sister and brother in law Elaine and Troy Watkins left the ministry around 86 John and she were not talking and that yes, he shiite talked a lot of people and was all hard arse. It was a very hurtful thing to Elaine that her brother treated her that way. Once he walked out on Corps night, he approached his sister and apologized and made up with her, and they were reunited, and she and Troy started attending the CFFM services. I'm not an attendee of theirs, as I said I was there when it started, but it started getting that rah-rah herd mentality and I didn't really get into it. I did see an epiphany in John though, you could see remorse in him for drinking the Kool-Aid. And unlike Lynn, and Finnegan, (who as far back as 2000 was spouting that he could counsel people on how to rid themselves of the spiritual causes of being overweight and PTSD, etc), or Dan Moran, (who I was dragged to his house and it was like being in a 1974 time warp where he collects money and that's how he makes a living), with John starting the ministry wasn't his idea and it wasn't about the money. Like I said, he had a real job. I don't know, he probably had a Rolodex of people to apologize to, really. I'm not rationalizing what he did, it was wrong. I did spend enough casual time with him in real conversations with him though when he was brutally honest about F ups that he regretted to know that he realized that he had bought the farm and had a lot of soul searching to do.

LOL, waysider! Looks like you did! Here’s a modern day example of “language manipulation” for ya! Each year The Washington Post publishes a contest in which readers are asked to supply alternate meanings for various words. Here are some past winners: 1. Coffee (n.), a person who is coughed upon. 2. Flabbergasted (adj.), appalled over how much weight you have gained. 3. Lymph (v.), to walk with a lisp. 4. Gargoyle (n.), an olive-flavored mouthwash. 5. Flatulence (n.), the emergency vehicle that picks you up after you are run over by a steamroller. 6. Balderdash (n.) a rapidly receding hairline. 7. Testicle (n.) a humorous question on an exam. 8. Pokemon (n.), a Jamaican proctologist.

Y'know, on that general topic of what-said-versus-what-real, Penworks put the final stamp on something I'd realized about the earlier years in the Way's growth, the period right before and after 1970... In her book she described her own experiences as an early participant and then Corps member and the very real struggles that she encountered, and in so doing refers to the similar experience of the others around her, many of whom were developing somewhat mythical reputations about what they were doing, they're "believing" and the "results" they got "operating the principles" of the "class".....stories about "classes coming together" and great things happening when they would go out on assignments proliferated when in reality if you were around during those periods what you really heard about was how valuable something was for them - what they'd learned, the great personal healing they'd experienced, how powerful it all was to "see God Working" in their own lives, etc......which may or may not have been fully true and would be perfectly fine as far as that goes but it very clearly got blown up into much larger stories of outreach and growth .....later as these same people rose up through the ranks they continued to be held up as models of success even to the point of using it as a lever to denigrate and step over others they likely considered competition to their own ascendancy and most importantly their elevated reputations. I would say that as the years rolled on it became apparent that most of these earlier "heavies" never exhibited the "signs, miracles and wonders" in what they did nor in how they worked with others - rather they merely got better at workin' the system, the language, the logic of it all. I met and got to know Penworks throughout that period and always found her to be honest, supportive, and very caring in the most human of ways. Her own sense of self awareness and her own struggles allowed her to take the high road so to speak and to NOT take advantage of others in order to get what she wanted or felt she deserved. This was and is an admirable trait but one lacking in many of her peer group at that time, as we saw unfold over the years. She wasn't alone, there were others but there soon came to be a core group of up and coming "leaders" who were grabbing the horns of the corporation and riding it out. Which aren't all that many years - from the period of PFAL 2.0, (their was an earlier homegrown version that was scrapped for being extremely sub standard) the final professionally filmed version that was in the can as of 1967 till VPW's death there's only 17years of time - and that's the time frame when he finally had enough of his ducks in a row that he felt he could promote PFAL on an international level, doing things like going West to reach the "Jesus Movement" of the '60's. Etc etc. My own experience prior to PFAL coming out to Cali was one where I'd seen quite a bit of real change and "the power of God" through faith in Jesus Christ and the teaching of the Bible, in it's simplest forms. PFAL teaching put pieces together for me but not in an altogether new way, in some ways it simply put structure and a way to understand what was actually happening. In other ways it didn't create a whole new horizon or "produce results" where there were none........ So I was used to hearing stories and of great things happening, I was living some of them myself so it was not merely an academic exercise..........so it seemed a little thin hearing about all these great wonderful things from the first and second Way Corps but never - actually - seeing - exactly - what they were talking about, other than a lot of what you'd call "personal growth". And Stuff. Lot's of "oh God taught me" this and that and loads of "I feel so humbled by what I am learning" kind of stuff buuuuuuuut unfortunately it the Way Corps did not become a "program" designed for spiritual awareness, in action. Kinda ironic. The pattern I see looking back is that for many people there was a period of early growth in and around PFAL and if that took form into a more ritualized set of practices through their Way fellowship, the Way Corps or other programmed participation, the risk increased for it to become fosselized and lifeless. Busy, noisy, chaotic, even beautiful and good sometimes but more man made, mechanical effort than "pneumatikos" engerized and moving through faith. It's a fine line and one that some others might not see but to me, it's there and is where I see the broad swathe of humanity and effort that the Way had for those years. It's exactly the environment that produced an LCM, El Presidente, a man focused on methodology and linear thinking who literally could not see the forest for the tree. My point - is NOT that NOTHING was real and it was all BS, but rather that there was a LOT of BS being shoveled ABOUT those early "heavies" some of whom didn't buy into the marketing and others who unfortunately did, for whatever reasons. This is why I'm so ambivalent about trying to "convince anyone" of anything - I believe those "signs, miracles and wonders" DO and DID occur, and they are to be retold and sharing as those involved are guided and God wishes. They're testimonies to His great Presence and Will. It is happening all around us and all the time. Many ask "why not now" or "why is this or that allowed to happen?" and while there's reasons for and causes, in the end I am not the Creator nor Giver of Laws and in many respects - I just don't know. But I'll continue to tell the story I know and love, as long as theres' one to tell. PEACE!

One errant or misunderstood part of the lady's teaching though. She mentions tithes or tithing. Tithing is misunderstood often and can be used to make money for large religious organizations and individual already wealthy people instead of being used to help poor people. Tithing is NOT required in the New Testament. This was only practiced in the Old Testament under the Jewish religion. Here they mixed faith in God with their political authority. Jesus Christ spoke against this often as these people were not service oriented like Jesus wanted people to be. Instead they wanted power, authority and perhaps even worship of themselves. Here is an example of this with the first usage of tithe or tithing in the New Testament. Here is the NIV version. This version does not use the word tithe. However, obviously the same Greek word for tithe. The NIV simply describes the corruption and greed more of using tithing to gain religious authority and perhaps also using it to make money instead of helping the poor. The word "greed" is used in verse 25.

DWBH wrote: "I’ve never really investigated how the thing was received by the biblical research and textual criticism folks at the academic and university levels. I wonder if anyone outside TWIt or the splinters and offshoots even uses it?? Anyone know?" I recall that the Society of Biblical Literature knew the concordance was published in 1985 because some of the guys on the research team had been attending SBL meetings and talking about it to SBL members over the years. I do not know how it was actually received by those academics, or whether it is used by anyone today, including anyone at TWI HQ or in offshoots. Wish I could be more helpful.

When I was in twi, that meant, "sell the PFLAP class."

Advance = retreat Opportunity = problem Being negative = identifying a problem Think positive = ignore an obvious problem Stand on the word = practice cognitive dissonance

Thank you, Twinky, the Bridge Builders poem is tainted for me too. In addition to it being used to support lcm's leadership, for me it kind of applied to all us corps who were to follow in vpw's footsteps, (not Jesus' foot steps of course). (BTW, I had to take a break from gsp as I was getting too triggered... Remembering to ground and pace myself is helping...) Am still finding it very helpful to gradually read thru certain previous posts to re-enter that old Reality so I can process, heal, and move Up and Out.) Blessings Twinky and All!

I agree with Raf on this. Using my own figurative and not literal language, to see if they have made or make a change, perhaps reach out with your hand like you would with a dog. Then look and see if they wag their tail, while listening to make sure they don’t growl or bark. If they growl or bark then simply walk away. If they wag their tail then perhaps either pet them or wag your tail also.

Yeah, I'm going there. WTF, I had to listen to how evil it was for twenty years, and then pretty much continued to believe it was unnatural for over another decade plus. I was never antagonistic towards gay men, I undersheparded (oh jeez, TWI lingo) several, just lesbians got on my nerves because a lot of them had such chips on their shoulders. Around the same time I was reading Dr. Bart Ehrman's books and learning that a LOT more of the NT was obfuscated/mistranslated/added to than what TWI taught, making me question so much of what I had accepted as truth which NEVER came true (like the promise in Peter that the chaste conversation of the faithful believing wife winning over the apatheia husband; yeah, right, it doesn't work when he's a bona fide sociopath) I was also learning about Chimerism. I had returned to college and was majoring in Biology for Pre-Med, wanting to be a Physician's Assistant. For those of you who don't know, Chimerism is what happens is when in the uterus, a woman has two fetuses that are developing. At the embryonic stage, one of them will die, and be absorbed by the other. It might be the same sex, it might be the opposite sex. When this happens, the one absorbed has it's own DNA and coding for traits and even the mapping, etc. During the process of gestation, as the remaining fetus grows, it has two distinct sets of DNA, and different organs in the body will have different DNA. This may include reproductive organs. It however also affects paired organs, like eyes. That's why you get a person, or animals with two different colors of eyes- like David Bowie, or a cat. I am totally serious. When I first learned about Chimerism, the first thought that came to my mind was that maybe it is the reason why someone is born with the sexual organs of a man, but is attracted to men instead of women. Some part of his body that produces hormones has the DNA from a female twin, and he is a Chimera. I was discussing it with someone, and he was telling me that a woman he dated had a brother who was found to have a fully formed twin in one of his testicles. (there are other sorts of developmental aberrations that form that are like undeveloped twins called terratomas, you can do an internet search to learn about them.) There was a child custody case where a woman who had given birth to several children was given a DNA test regarding to paternity in conjunction with a support order, and the DNA did not match, so protective services actually removed the children she had proof of giving birth to from her home. It was not until research was done and discovery yielded information about a similar case involving Chimerism that different tissue from her body was tested and matched that her children were returned to her. In addition to being a possible explanation for homosexual attraction, Chimerism could also be an explanation for gender identity that differs from the gender assignment given at birth, and the desire for gender reassignment surgery. Of course I speak strictly from a scientific point of view, for those who are of a scientific mind, it certainly is interesting and makes a compelling argument for nature over nurture. Anyone who believes in the Bible will find it tedious no doubt . Though I will add that David Charles Craley has written a book that shares his latest take on what the meaning of Romans chapter one is regarding homosexuality, and it diverges from his first book "The Hope of Glory (In Search of The Light)" I am attaching a research paper; it's not particularly light reading but it's not ponderous. it's an e-pdf so I think it's a link only save. Dual-gender_macrochimeric_tissue_discordance_is_predicted_to_be_a__significant_cause_of_human_homose(1).pdf

My opening remarks are going to be fairly brief (for me), and address the general framework and mindset differences. For any of a number of reasons, the Book of Genesis was written to be clear and easy-to-be-understood by the people at the time it was penned. If the "creation account" and "the fall" of Genesis 1-3 were written for modern sensibilities, it would have been written (for the same number of reasons) with some highly technical details, it would have been far more exhaustive in detail, and would have proceeded in a far more linear fashion. One common mistake, IMHO, in reading Genesis is in refusing to approach it like it was "meant" to be read, that is, with a literary mindset that matches the text and not 21st century books. (The differences between early 20th century books and now can be dramatic- so the idea that, further back, there's GREATER differences, should not be particularly odd. One additional problem, which this writer didn't make, is when people assume that we invented figures of speech or extended figures of speech. We have no difficulty understanding them when they're used in modern settings, but when it comes to old settings, some people seem to think they didn't exist. Example 1: Christopher Lee sang "The Bloody Verdict of Verden." It dramatizes an incident from Charlemagne's life, where thousands of Saxons were killed at Charlemagne's order. Lee plays Charlemagne in the song. "I shed the Blood of the Saxon men! I shed it at Verden! I shed the Blood of the Saxon men! I shed the Blood of four thousand Saxon men!" Nobody takes him to mean that Charlemagne himself stood there at Verden and slew all 4000 personally. Example 2: We have no difficulty imagining the use of animals to METAPHORICALLY describe people now. "The old sidewinder", "that pig", "you cow", and so on. When we do so, we're comparing some attribute of the person (real or imagined) to the animal's attributes (real or imagined). We have no problem with an extended metaphor comparing one to the other, and understand we're not speaking, say, of a literal fox, or a literal wolf, or whatever. Anyway, I haven't connected any of this to the topic yet, but I plan to, if anyone cares. Peace and love.

A) Thanks in advance for the notice that the site MIGHT go down temporarily. It's good to know in advance. B) I'm glad you're here, and I hope you're feeling better. I can only speak for me, but I'll do my personal best not to be combative or disagreeable. It's your show, and it's fair that you set the standards.

As to homosexuals: there are several "gay friendly" churches in this city, including the principal church of the city. In my volunteer work as a Street Pastor, I have visited (= called by) a well-known gay pub and struck up many conversations with young males. You would not believe the treatment that has been meted out to them by different churches: beatings, cold baths, exorcisms, endless Bible studies, and finally banning. Some of these men know a lot of Bible verses; they've tried hard not to be homosexual but - but they just fancy men. Some even say, "I know it's wrong." This sort of treatment of these men by their churches is shameful and so lacking in compassion that I'm badly embarrassed. My response now is: "I'm glad you've found someone to love." And I've told some, "Did you know God loves you? Really loves you?" For some, it's clear that this is one message they've never heard from their churches.

Jennifer Love Hewitt. Selah.

Twinky, I had the exact same conversation with J@nu@ry over 15 years ago, and very similar experiences with CFFM. For what it’s worth, I’m in complete agreement with you comments. For decades she lived in fear of reprisals from TWI. Actually feared for her life. What a horrible way to live. To my knowledge she’s past that now. From what I can see these days, CFFM is doing the best they can do to honor Jesus Christ in their small community of Christians as they continue to help those who were abused by TWI in any form.

Greasespotters: For those of you who can’t afford more classes and books, or just vomit at the thought, there are a number of folks who do lots of really excellent and academically legitimate work in and with Syriac language textual criticism of New Testament scripture. Bob Wassung in CT comes to mind. Don’t let his affiliation with Jalvis’ TLTF confuse you. Bob has a genuine and impressive background in the study of Syriac. He has published numerous articles and runs an online independent study group for those interested. Our good friend Penworks also knows some of the old Syriac/Aramaic legitimate researchers from the days she worked with them in the Research Team of the mid 1980s. If your interest in Syriac is profound and you desire to seriously study it and understand it linguistically, then, imho, books and classes as recommended by our friend johnj above are an excellent starting point. But, if you just want to understand how Vic, and Walter manipulated the Aramaic Dept. and bullied Bernita Jess and her copse Aramaic assistants in the Research Dept., then you might even be able to find enough right here in the GSC archives to give you all the accurate info you need. Whatever you choose, enjoy!

It's special TWI language (as sought by the topic of this thread) meaning, "unzip your pants and screw every female in sight." From the English, "loosen up" your moral values. From the Greek, "luo," to act like an out-of-control dog.

Regarding the Queen of The Way Bookstore- I am so, so, so, so, so, so, evil------------

I listened for less time then you but continued to believe it for longer, i.e. around three decades. My waking up on this subject, as on a few other things, started with my best survivor friend's account of a very caring friendship she had had in the past. This friend eventually died of AIDS. But I quickly learned in real time that her testimony, and her friend's caring, was real., mainly thrugh other friends I met through her. And, even before my mnd was really changed, the seeds were planted, unintentionally, by the hate spewed in LCM's rants.

There ARE some movies I know about without actually having seen them... George

I just found this in my email spam folder. If you were talking about me I am no longer involved with CFFM and have not been to their fellowship center since 2006 as I stated. However if you're currently being sexually abused I would definitely encourage you to report it to the police if it's appropriate.

Ditto for FellowLaborers. There was a clause in the agreement that specifically stated that marital status could not change while in the program. "Rules for thee, but not for me"....VPW

Kathy.......here are a couple more tidbits to ponder [bold-face added]: Victor and Dotsie married on July 2, 1937......secretly eloping to Kentucky. On page 28, Dotsie explains: "We felt that there were two reasons to keep our marriage a secret. For one reason, Vic could continue playing college basketball, since that privilege might be taken away from him if it were know he was married. Another reason was a rule that pre-seminary students were not permitted to get married before completing their seminary training. But by December of his senior year, Vic was securely positioned on the basketball team and felt safe that he would be allowed to complete the season." Skirt the rules, ignore the rules, damn the rules........modus operandi of slick vic. Hey, I wonder what would have happened if I secretly got married on my interim corps year........and then, in my final year of in-residence made it known that I had LIED and BUCKED THE F-ing RULES and did my own thing? And, yeah.......Dotsie stayed silent all those years about "twi's founding in 1942." What a farce!!! They were struggling along in that small church in Payne, Ohio in 1942.....and there was no way that vpw had visions of a class-based ministry (twi) just because six kids were singing in a Youth Choir. Sheesh. What a fabricated LIE that victor ginned up and Dotsie went along for the ride. EVERTHING CHANGED......when vic sat in Leonard's class in 1953: Vic saw that with a class-based ministry (from Leonard)....he could operate outside the framework of denominational church boards. Run classes.......strongly mandate the faithful tithe; Foundational.....Intermediate......Advanced Classes. Advanced Studies Classes..........Renewed Mind, Defeating the Adversary, The Way Tree, CFS, etc. Class Photo after each class (just like Leonard always did). In-house publications, sanitized way magazine......control the messaging ALWAYS. Dotsie, Ermal, Dorothy, Harry, Howard, Emogene, etc........enablers. All got their little fiefdoms. Dotsie was the "First Lady of The Way." Ermal, in the early years, supervised construction efforts. Harry added investment and business acumen. Howard drove the bus and guarded vic's drunken exploits and sexual predation. Emogene sat in her office watching afternoon soaps.....yet, commanded the title of Queen of The Way Bookstore with tentacles reaching into shipping, receiving, warehousing, limb bookstore training and rock of ages bookstore recruitment. The enablers were given power over these fiefdoms for their loyalty to wierwille. .

LOL Kathy Niclaus!

And.........So It Begins. This R&R splinter group is sanitizing (censoring) the comments of others. And, those 896 members (cough, cough) are still in the nest.......because they haven't learned how to fly. But the time is nigh.....when many will stretch their wings, jump from the nest and fly away. Maybe, in all their research ability.........they will research Mrs. Wierwille's book and find: Mrs. Wierwille sanitized the life and history of twi's founder, victor paul wierwille. The wierwille bloodline and history took great liberties (tweaking details to fit vpw's narrative). Wierwille coat of arms was three sea gulls......not three doves. See how easy it is to tweak history!? Clearly, vpw plagiarized (stole) Leonard's class in 1953.....and deceptively, taught it as his own. The 1942 myth of twi's beginning was to preempt the questioning of wierwille as "founder." The Way Inc. was a SPLINTER GROUP.......from Leonard's research and work. In twi-lore, the India itinerary was heralded as "the great Christian Minister Dr. Wierwille visits India." Yet, Dr. I. S. Williams was president of the All-India Federation of Churches and pastor of the St. Paul's Hindustani Church in Byculla, Bombay and devotee of Indian history ..... was host to the wierwilles and opened the doors for vpw to speak. Respect was given to Dr. Williams.......not the American pastor. Wierwille resigned (fired?) from the Van Wert Church in August 1957.......and the church board unanimously accepted his resignation. Twi began its first independent undertaking on Thursday December 19, 1957 [p. 219.....last paragraph]. Money, money, money.......wierwille calculated that he needed 6 more families to tithe faithfully to pay his expenses [p. 228]. From 1957-1967......people did not stick when wierwille taught those LIVE classes. WHY? After 45 years of twi..............why can't questions be asked? Why are people black-listed for ASKING QUESTIONS? What are they hiding? Why is wierwille given a free pass and sanitized at every turn. Could it be that it was stolen valor from other great ministers who did the work and walked the talk? Yet, wierwille came riding in on the coattails of others and heavy-handedly purged those who questioned him and soft-talked the masses at big events. Mrs. Wierwille's book......even though heavily-sanitized......exposes the myths and mystique of victor paul wierwille to anyone who researches the details. .

I will make a short version of y reply which was in here. But I know my main sexual assaulter is one of those who ignores hurts and carries on with wonderful sounding words and prayers in the one she is in.

I get it- there are actions results that are possible, but the causes are not attributable to what some groups/doctrines might believe. Just like medicine and science has evolved due to experimentation to prove or disprove. The first time I went through the Haunted Mansion ride at Walt Disney World I was an Advanced Class Grad and freaked out just a little, because I knew that I wasn't seeing holograms, and the things floating in the air were not ghosts, but they sure fit the description of ectoplasm. LOL, I did not know about the illusion known as Pepper's Ghost done with glass, mirrors, and mannequins. So, nursing, huh? Did you go to school after you left in 1986? I have a tremendous respect for nurses, and for all disciplines in the behavioral sciences, especially pharmacology. I've seen a life turned around completely by 60 mg of Prozac a day, I am not kidding you.

One of my ANCC Nursing certifications is in Psychiatric Nursing Pharmacology. This discipline is involved with the study of the active “ingredients”, mechanism of action, common side effects, and therapeutic results expectations available from the proposed medical therapies and interventions. I have have hundreds of clinical hours in the treatment, counseling, and studying of patients whom TWIt would have classified and consigned to the “trash heap” of devil spirit possession. It was a wonderful journey of learning and understanding of not only the mental illnesses human beings have to deal with, but also the utter ridiculousness of Advanced Class Aryan propaganda, antiquated “Christian” superstitions, and the “mechanics” of devil spirit possession and it’s accompanying mandatory dissing of ALL forms of psychiatry and psychology as having been “born in a seance”. A true disservice to those suffering treatable and curable psychiatric disorders. As a fellow believer in science and the scientific method, along with being a fan of and “dabbler” in quantum physics, I realize that things like “demons”, “possession”, telekinesis, telepathy, etc, are indeed possible theoretically. That allows for the thorough scientific investigation of what TWIt referred to as all things “spiritual” with an open and curious mind based on the objectitivity of the scientific method. An example of this is the investigation into Einstein’s hypotheses of “spooky motion at a distance” and “time travel”. Point being.....the possibility of “devil spirit possession” exists. However the doctrines and “procedures” of dictor paul re: “the holy spirit field” are fabricated, fictitious, and fraudulent imo. They are no different in effect and “results” than what is depicted in “The Exorcist”, or “The Exorcism Of Emily Rose” and other horror film cult favorites. They are also no more proveable, efficacious, or “real” than what those films display, imo. Fundamentalist Christian teachings, theories, and understandings of “devils and demons” is NOT objective nor does it rely upon scientific method to validate its claims or doctrines. It is basically a collection of hand-me-down, ancient superstitions and hearsay regarding heretofore inexplicable human behaviors or experiences, imo. Can such things as described in the AC happen? The possibility exists, but scientific study and investigation has yet to yield objective proof. So, as a healthcare professional, I choose to go with the proveable, predictable, and repeatable therapies which have been discovered and implemented in the clinical arena. At the same time, I do not discount the possibility of miracles, healings, and other inexplicable “spiritual” phenomena. I believe the teachings and practices of modern fundamentalist or charismatic “Christians” in the “devil spirit realm” are disinformed, inappropriate, misguided, dangerous, and damaging to those they are applied to. They are close-minded and suspicious, as well as ineffective and anecdotal evidentially. TWIt doctrines and practices in this “holy spirit field” are subjective at best, and totally based in the personal perversions and peccadilloes of vp wierwille, BG Leonard, J.E. Stiles, Glenn Clark, Rufus Mosely, Earl Stanley Jones, Rosalind Rinker, K.C. Pillai, Oral Roberts, E. Kenyon, and others whom wierwille used to “credit” with inspiring or mentoring him. They are based completely on personal experience and “private interpretation”, NOT Biblical “research, teaching, and fellowship”. TWIt adherents are dangerously self-deluded in their fairy tale understanding of devil spirits and possession. They are misguided and become religious bigots just like Falwell Jr., Franklin Graham, Copeland, Creflo Dollar, Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer, Jim Bakker, all the Swaggarts, the Bo and Stanley Reahards, the Sue Pierces, the Gerald Wrenns, the Charlie Quillens, the Mark Frontczaks and Victor Barnards, The SOWERS, Greg Backes, Maurice Goulet, John Lynn and his latest “ministry”, TLTF, the Terry and Melanie Wilsons in Black Forrest, CO, Momentus and all the other Dan Tocchini cults, STFI, Vinny Finnegan’s Living Hope Ministries International, “Dr.” Dale Sides and his bs “Liberating ministries for Christ international”, Brian Bliss and his phony “Christian Leadership and Service Academy”, Geer’s “Word Promotions Ltd.” franchises, Earl and Nancy Burton, Kris and Katie Kile and their Momentus offshoot, Howard Walker and his WC FB Page, Steve Sann and his John Richeson Ning Way Corps site, Jerry Carr, Bob Hanna, Bob and Kathy Mathieson, Paul Norcross, Larry Panarello, Revival and Restoration with Boob and Doody Moneyhands, Michael and Cindy Fort, Ed and Jackie Horney, et al, Michael Rood and his Rood Awakening Jewish roots cult, and all the rest of the domnionist, alt-right neo-Nazi cults, offshoots, and splinters of that horror show in new Knoxville, Ohio.

If there's a moderator who can move it, then I have no objection. In retrospect doctrine did not even blip on my mental radar because being agnostic/borderline atheist, science is the basis for my thinking so I don't take doctrine into consideration unless I am comparing doctrinal views within a particular religion; i.e., Satmar Judaism vs Chabad Judaism, etc. Like you though, I don't believe that devil spirits are the cause of the aforementioned maladies and don't believe in their existence either, but believe them to be a fabrication that are a convenient machination used for the purpose of manipulating and controlling people through fear. Hey! We can be a tag team!

It all makes sense now.

It doesn't get more "first-hand" than that.

From the story linked in my previous comment: However much they might dislike Scientology, its jargon is their native tongue. Some even say it’s a relief to talk without code-switching, or worrying that they’re talking gibberish. There’s a reason why the language is so central to the belief system, and so hard to shake. According to psychiatrist and thought-reform expert Robert Jay Lifton, new lexicons are common in cults — and often essential. He calls the practice “loading the language,” and includes it as one of eight core features of high-demand groups. When the group breaks to smoke, I ask Shelton for a second opinion. Forget the question of emotional repression for a second. If there are words for these feelings already, why not use them? “It makes us feel special and unique,” he jokes. “If we used regular English words, then anyone could do this!” But he agrees with Lifton’s idea of cult idioms as thought-terminating cliches. “It gets people thinking in the cult leader’s system,” he says. “It literally makes it harder to think outside the box.” Dr. Matthews agrees, pointing out that many high-demand groups have jargon around emotional repression. Some fundamentalist Christian cults use the phrase “keep sweet,” she says, meaning “stop whining, stop complaining.” She adds, “Jargon like that rewires the brain.”

Thanks for another thought provoking post, Socks. Your post reminded me of why in the hell I decided to go into the way corpse in the first place. It was right after the 2nd and 3rd corpses came into NY, on the first of what were to become known as “Lightbearers”......the in-Rez corpse “practical challenge” to prove the efficacy and reality of the corpse training in the the lives of “god’s most committed” followers of the way. That was in the late spring and early summer of 1973. It was the 2nd corpse (graduating that August) and the 3rd corpse (finishing up their first year in-Rez). Unlike the subsequent “practical challenges” of “Lightbearers” groups, which were primarily made up of getting a piffle class together within a two week visit to an area of “concern, interest, and need”, this group was sent out on the mission to kick ass, take names, and “straighten things out” in the limb of NY, which had been hit very hard by the putsch-like firing of Steve and Sandi Heefener in March of 1972, and the resistance to Boob and Doody Moneyhands having been brought in as the new limb bosses. I had been a “full-time ministry employee” at the way of Long Island from September 1971 through May, 1972. Steve and Laurie Perez were the full-time area leaders for the way of Long Island, which they started from scratch in the fall of 1970. There was an authentic Christian “revival” in lower NY among the young people and hippies of the time. Steve and Laurie sparked a non-stop slew of piffle film classes at a clip of 4 or 5 a month from Suffolk, Nassau & Queens, for 12 months in a row, leading up to the AC in Rye, NY in March, 1972, during which the Heefners were publically slandered and spitefully fired. When the Heefners got fired, the Perezs quit. That left Ed Goebel, John Petty, and me as the remaining full-timers down in lower NY from the 5 boroughs of the City to Nassau and Suffolk Counties. We all decided to quit full-time employment with the way of NY, but, except for Ed, we retained our oversized branches to keep running classes. At that time, the whole “blue form” send all the $$ to HQ thing began too! So, it had been quite a year of fighting and resisting for the lower NY areas by the time the 2nd and 3rd showed up in June of 1973. I was busy getting ready for the ROA ‘73 and finalizing my decision on whether or not to go into the corpse that fall. I got married in July of that year and 2 weeks later was at HQ for summer school and in-Rez. I was playing back- up guitar for Cliff, and lead guitar for Sweet Fellowship (most of whom were going into the 4th corpse) and we backed-up a whole bunch of other groups from the Northeast. Doug MacMullan was 3rd Corpse and he was specifically assigned to work with all us “way productions” people to get us ready for the ROA that year. It was total HELL! LOL! Rehearsals were these 14 hour marathons at Ray Bertine’s parents’ farm in upstate NY, with Mac Mullan telling us to smile, and move, and look at the audience, and, and, and, and........., It was during that week of rehearsals at the farm, that I made the decision to go into the corpse. My thoughts were these: I could see the handwriting on the subway walks pretty damn clearly! If anyone wanted to have any leadership position in the way it would eventually require doing time in da corpse! THAT was made quite obvious to us by vp himself during that month-long Advanced Class in Rye, and by Boob and Doody with their smarmy obsequious worship of all things dictor paul, and by the book bondage”leadership” style. I just wanted to get married, run the Queens/Brooklyn Area Of NY for the way, and make my living playing music. I did NOT want to go be a limp leader or staff person somewhere. I wanted to stay in NY, get married, play music, and “move da word”!! LOL! There’s the language manipulation again!! Well, once we were in the way corpse gulag at HQ, EVERYTHING CHANGED! VP had big plans for us Way Productions keedz that we had no idea about! Then, suddenly, there was an Interim year added!!! WTF?? And then......JCING came out.....and then PFAL ‘77.....and then AC ‘79......and then The 40th Anniversary Year weekends, Living Victoriously, The Installation of Da forehead on the 40th Anniversary, Sound Out ‘84.....WIBAP.......one mega event after another and no time to think about what the hell we were doing other than we were “just moving the word”!! Well that wound up a big bust! LOL! Point of it all being, I never went into the way corpse to be a lifelong ful-time “Minister”! I just wanted to get married, run a branch or two for the way of NY in the City, and play music. I only wanted the corpse so HQ would leave us alone in NY! Leave us alone to run classes, glorify Jesus, play music, have fun, and live life! But, dictor Paul had other ideas. He manipulated the meaning of “a lifetime of Christian service” into a lifetime of indentured servitude to his personal perverted peccadilloes and pathological illnesses. I pity the fool. Thanks again for another good post Socks. You rawk!

"retemory" was a portmanteau word mixing together "retain" and "memorize" because twi had to have it's own word for memorizing something. Saying you "retained" what you memorized is needless. It's like saying you have to mention you ATE something that you DIGESTED. It demonstrated a lack of understanding of what it meant to memorize. "Cop out" became really popular once 80% of the people got up and left at once in 88-89. They needed a slur to slap on the other Christians who were doing all the same things as them but not with the same social organization, so they were "copped out." "The Best" - It's shocking how dissatisfied the cadre at the top of twi can be about everyone else who has a life and a job and still does HOURS of stuff for twi. On the one hand, vpw always claimed twi had all the "best" people and he studied under "the best" despite their lack of background. However, if YOU do something for twi, the top person from there can avoid saying something nice and say it wasn't "best" instead, implying it wasn't good enough. "All 9 all the time." - A nice goal to aim for, but impossible in practice. NOBODY EVER walked around in twi, CONTINUALLY performing miracles, doing healings, casting out demons or devil-spirits, etc INCLUDING vpw, no matter how often he FAKED getting revelation.

Oldiesman! The lady speaks like a legitimate biblical teacher, while learning from and quoting actual bible verses. In my view for faith, she gets a grade of "A". For teaching, she gets a passing grade. Interesting that sometimes the Roman Catholic church believes in the gift of the Holy Spirit and the manifestation, evidence, events or gifts of the Holy Spirit. Whatever they want to call it, it is OK with me.

Holidays- Christmas became Household Holiday (HoHo) Valentines became Happy Hearts Day Easter became Resurrection Sunday

Yeah, "move the word" is code for enlisting new recruits and enrolling new class students, preferably ones without a lot of troublesome personal baggage and lots of disposable cash.

We were also 78-79 military wow ambassadors in West Germany. If you remember three of the military wow couples had babies during that time. I thought we had a lot of caring between all of the military involved in the way at that time. However when we returned stateside it seemed to be a lot colder than in Europe.

"If we could get another 6 families interested in our local group meetings who would join with us week after week in fellowship as well as the giving of their tithes for this work and ministry we would have a greater group than we have even now." There are so many things nauseating about wierwille's solicitation letter......but this quote is extremely nauseating and calculating. Let's see......Average median household income X 10% (tithe) X 6 (household incomes) = amount needed to adequately pay expenses and wierwille's salary Not 5 families.......6 families who will faithfully give their weekly tithe What ever happened to looking to God......to do exceeding abundantly above all that you ask or think (calculate in your pea brain)? I've said this several times.......Mrs. Wierwille's book debunks the myths and mystique of victor paul wierwille.

Yeah.......splinter cults "taking care of each other." The "reverends" stay "reverends." Corps still hold spiritual status and leadership roles in this two-tier system. Rather than align with wierwille-mandates of DFAC (dropped from active corps).....they dismiss vpw's contempt on cop-outs. The splinter cults laud pfal-doctrine..........yet, bury every corps letter (and teaching) that wierwille directed their way. Cognitive dissonance is on parade as these splinter cults fly their flags and wear their masks. And then, others follow them into these splinter cults.......because "churches are evil messengers." OMG.......is this what institutionalized means? Psychosocial perversions, indeed.

No doubt JJ never thought he'd still be making these videos contra'ing VPW, after all these years. As well as showing the copies of the books plagiarised by VPW, it might have been useful if JJ had recommended one or two deeper (but not too deep) theological tomes by reputable writers, since he mentions that VPW's writings are not only plagiarised, but shallow, sloppy, subbed, stolen, etc. Too many ex-Wayfers have no idea where to start looking, if they want more info, or want to study or think for themselves, and find it difficult to accept, let alone analyse, the content of non-Way materials. Anyway, well done John, for sticking with it all these years.

Yeah, Skyrider.... splinters are oftentimes worse than the original disease from which they metastasized! Look at “Rev” Charlie Quillen’s “Faithful In Christ Ministries” out of Chicago, IL & hooked in tight with CFFM, SOWERS, Wrenn, Reahard and all the other pathetic wierwilleites running around the fringiest fringes of the Alt-Right Aryan “Christian” Dominionist groups flooding the evangelical fundamentalist persecuted hordes of the faithful! They provide shelter and cover for each other, doing their best to sweep away all the blood tracks dripping back to Wierwille, The Way, and and all the spiritual and sexual abuse that they participated in and/or enabled! Quillen (along with MacMullan) was the wannabe Heinrich Himmler of the wierwille/martindale reich....Head Of The Gestapo and SS. We’ve had tons of stories here at the GSC through the years, involving the creepy stares and eerie presence of the “bless patrol chief’s” security for the MOGs of TWI. Standing guard at the door of the motor coach as the abused victims marched in and out under the watchful stare of “Rev” Quillen and “Rev” Geer, game OF Thrones 1970s cornfield cult style! LOL! Well, now “Rev” Charlie has a pretty decent sized Wierwille-cult in IL now and has all sorts of “related pages” and “ministries” he sponsors, like “The Solution Radio Show: Jesus Christ Is God’s Solution” which is advertised all over Charlie’s pages. Greg Backes runs the joint and hooks up with old TWIt broadcast refugees like Mike Verdicchio, the voice of Sprits In The Althlete, who also does some jeeezus show on some radio station out west somewhere. CFFM, and SOWERS are heavily promoted as is Sparrow Cartoons, a “Christian” cartoon publishing company owned and operated by none other then one of Charlie’s most loyal Blesstapo Patrol henchman, and Heinrich Himmler to convicted rapist and cult leader, and fellow corpse bruddah, Victor Barnard! Frontczak has 476 likes and followers on his page now! Taking care of each other is now their job, instead of taking care of the wierwille family. Well......same thing really, since the only wierwille’s still living are all active in CFFM, SOWERS, or John Hagee Ministries......and these ex-wayfer cults are all intermarried with each other! So, I agree, Skyrider. The splinters are worse in the sense that they have brewed and distilled wierwillean doctrinal and psychosocial perversion down into a slick, state-of-the-art megachurch con, as good and as far removed from what’s left of TWIt in New Knoxville and Gunnison. Makes it easier to “forgive” your old pals and overlook their current associations and alliances with cult-buddies and grifters from their glory daze in TWIt, boozin’ and sexin’ it up in the name of jeeezus and da holy spurt! Worse than hypocrites......cowardly, shameful enablers. Worse indeed, Skyrider. Worse indeed.