waysider

Bolshevik You asked why The Word did not move at the grass roots level, where people shared The Word spontaneously and why fellowships didn't just sprout forth of their own accord. ( sorry, I'm paraphrasing.) That is a very keen observation. In fact, this is exactly what did happen in the early days of The Way. You didn't have to tell people to "witness". In fact, you couldn't STOP them from witnessing. Everyone was so excited, it was infectious. Of course, most of us were representatives of a generation that felt we could change the world and make it a better place. How much better, some of us thought, if we could not only change the world, but we could do it with Gods' blessing.(or so we thought). At some point, of course, the emphasis on business superceeded the excitement that had sparked the fire. It's a mixed bag. On one hand, I wish some of you young people could have seen what it was and on the other hand, I'm glad you didn't. You can see now what it became and that is something I don't think any of us would have imagined. Most of my family was in TWI so I definately see what you are driving at with the family concept.

Lots of similarities, lots of differences but all in all the parallels are like a glass of cold water in the face. I don't remember where I heard this, but someone who was close to the aftermath reported that a large percentage of the deaths were caused by gunshot rather than poison. I can't verify that. I'll have to try to remember where I heard that. One thing that really struck me was the invisibility of the inner circle of militants he had hiding in the wings just waiting for orders to be given. It was like they came out of nowhere at the drop of a hat to attack the plane. I found myself wondering if the rank and file knew of this inner group and if they knew how extreme the measures were that they were ready to carry out. The sleep deprivation, the long hours, the isolationism, the directives not to discuss or consider or voice disagreement; it was all there. More extreme and tragic on a large scale than TWI but who knows what changes a few more years might have brought? I remember,too, how smug we felt that this "could never happen" to our precious TWI. We were far too tapped into the source for that to be possible.

There's a hole in daddy's arm where all the money goes Jesus Christ died for nuthin' , I suppose Little pitchers have big ears Don't stop to count the years Sweet songs never last too long on broken radios Sam Stone--------------by John Prine

Objection------Calls for speculation <_<

Just for the record, I never kissed his ring------------

It is airing in the Central Ohio area as well. A co-worker of mine, who was in a cult very similar to TWI, has already seen it and given it a thumbs up. Sidenote: Whodda thunk there coulda been another cult like TWI?

Maybe he could be a "chart flipper" at the next class. There's always a shortage in that department. What?!!!----Just tryin' to help the poor guy out!!!

I no longer have a PFAL book so I can't look it up. I am curious, however, to see what it says and to grasp the point that is being made in the context. Isn't this the part where it says that even though David was a murderer and an adulterer, he was still an OK guy? Was that the opinion of God or VP?(That darn chronolgy thing again) Context, I would think, would be the key factor here rather than any isolated sentence or paragraph.

Oakspear The "company line" I recall was that Wierwille and Bullinger independently and totally unaware of each others' work, had arrived at "amazingly" similar conclusions. This was supposed to give credence to the truth of the work. Four crucified, for example, was supposed to be validated by the shear fact that someone else had, supposedly unbenownst to Wierwille, arrived at the same conclusion. Therefore, "it must be true". Personally, I think he mentioned these guys because he was wily enough to realize that someone might just see through his facade. In other words, he was creating a convenient alibi in case he should ever need it.Of course, it kinda shoots holes in that idea that God showed it to him like it hadn't been seen in 2,000 years but that's another subject.(or is it?)

bfh Thank you for calling my attention to that reference in I Samuel. Still, I don't see mention of David, specifically, at this point. Following the events that took place after this, we can see where David was chosen. I don't think, however, that VPW handled this in a completely honest fashion because he fudged the chronology to make it seem like, even after all that David did, God found him to be a man ater his own heart. Maybe I'm reading too much into that, I don't know. I suppose this could go to the doctrinal forum if someone had a desire to carry it any farther. Personally, I do not.

I'm not the world's greatest researcher. Well,OK, I'n not even a researcher---period. But I have still not been able to find an O.T. account where"God said David was a man after his own heart" as quoted by VP in the PFAL class. I have seen the account that was part of a sermon given by Paul that refers to that but still nothing in the O.T. So here we have Paul making the statement in a specific context. Then we have VP using that statement in yet another context. But still, no point of origin in the O.T. which is the period of time in which David lived. How many of us remenber the blip in the PFAL class where VP strays from the point at hand and talks about how the flowers were placed on the desk because Mrs. W. thought it would be a nice touch? I, like most people, thought he was extending credit for a good idea. Little did I know that years later it would be posted here by someone who worked behind the scenes at the filming, that these comments were really a backhanded burst of sarcasm aimed at Mrs. W., whom he had just lambasted off camera for suggesting it. After VP passed, Mrs. W. was heard to utter"He was a mean man." Who would know better than she? All this is posted here at GSC for anyone who has the genuine desire to find out what kind of man VP was and if he was the "real deal".

Lone Wolf Have you taken some time to seriously examine some of the materials that are here for the click of a mouse at GSC? If you are not sure where to start, I'm pretty sure someone will be along shortly to help give some focus and direction. Are you are receptive to considering it? It takes a bit of time to wade through some of it, but the end result might just surprise you.

While we are on a side track here, I'll sneak this in. I remember hearing dr. Wierwille retell of a personal event that involved his children when they reached school age. It seems that the authorities insisted they(the children) have their shots before allowing them admittance. VPW resisted their efforts by insisting that God would protect his children, not a series of shots. Eventually he "decided" that if God could protect them from disease, he could protect them from effects of shots as well. (My wife, upon hearing the story, said it sounded like a case of old fashioned rationalization.) Anyway, he went on to say that we should NOT stop taking meds. until our healing was completed and the meds. themselves caused us ill effect. In some convoluted way, I thought there might be some logic to that. Afterall, The man speaking it had already established a level of credibility in my thinking. Years later, right here on GSC, I learned that this teaching came on the heels of a tragic event in which a believer had stopped taking meds. and died as a result.So you see, this "advise" was not some special wisdom bestowed upon the chosen ones. It was an example of how a shrewd business man can sieze an opportunity to cover his own arse and look like a wiseman in the process. Any light bulbs starting to glow?

I was always fond of "What A Fellows' Hip". Hoppy,Hoppy Easter.

C'mon people ---- :) ---- ______________ ---each other----

The ephod was one of the garments worn by the priest. It symbolized a connection to God. When Saul and David felt that they needed a connection to God, they would tell the priest to bring them the ephod. That's one of the perks that comes with rank.(being able to give orders) Having possesion of the ephod simply meant that David had exercised his authority to do so. It did not make him a priest. BTW-----The topic at hand is not "Was David the real deal?"(Please refer to title of thread for further insight)

I'm with you on Wootens' playing but, Hey!, we're talking about HUMANS here. I mean, check out the album covers . The cat is definately from outer space. I also wanted to include Dale Peters from James Gang (for that funk sound ) and Marc Andes from Spirit. I'm totally "wit youze guys" about a bass player serving as an I-Beam first and foremost rather than an embellishment on the facade of the building. Consider, if you will, the contributions of Willie Dixon in this respect. Re: Jack Bruce. I think the strength of his vocals may have been just as important as his bass work in the success of Cream. Too many to name, really, without leaving out a key player or three.

Thank you, FC, for your response to the questions I asked in my post. VeePeePee also made this statement in the piffle class, though he implied that it was in spite of specific incidents (that have been cited here) and the fact that David had been weighed in the balance and found lacking.(Notice how the examples are out of chronological order?) One has to wonder if he wasn't crafting a personal alibi to cover what his intuition told him might come back to bite him in the arse. For the record: I don't harbour any anger or hatred for the man. I just want to come to a better understanding of how this sort of deception unfolds so I don't get fooled again and can maybe prevent others from getting duped as well.

Here's one I heard on the "60's channel this morning. It's pretty easy, also. I'm not sure if it's been done here before but here it is. Some will come and some will go We shall surely pass When the one that left us here Returns for us at last We are but a moments sunlight Fading in the grass

Geeze----The words in my concordance keep getting smaller with each passing year. Would someone be so kind as to help me find that scripture that says David was referred to as a man after Gods' own heart? I'm also interested in who made the statement, when it was made and the context in which it was stated.

lone wolf Thought you said in post #139 that David was NOT the spiritual leader. What did I miss? And yeah, God gave the inspiration, but the "hard copy" came to us from fallible human beings. Remember session #2? That's part of the problem with the way TWI conditioned our thinking. We were supposed to hold onto everything they ever taught us and never even take the time to consider that maybe, just maybe, someone elses viewpoint might be just as valid as our own. There were some good lessons I learned in TWI. I won't deny that. But their approach to academic exploration and logical reasoning was deplorable at best. When a person refuses to at least consider the merits of another persons' opinion and, instead, does verbal gymnastics to try to justify there own thinking, it seems to imply an unwillingness to give a serious ear to what the other has to say and suggests that it can't possibly have any merit. Was VPW the real deal? Well, he certainly "dealt" us some powerful logic and reasoning lessons in session #7 that had some "real" long lasting effects. Sidenote: the word "real" is not derived from the same Greek word as "good".

To each his own Said Farmer Jones As he kissed Ol' Bossy the cow.

UMMMMM!------This thread is about things that SHOCK you, not things that give you cause to rejoice. Just funnin' with you, dude. Hope you don't mind.

Maxwells' Silver Hammer----------The "Fab Four"