Why I was drawn

[Outfield]

I was never in The Way officially. But what drew me in was non-judgemental categorizing. However, this soon changed once I became a grad of piffle.

I dont' know where I'm going with this.... Basically, I was accepted and then it started turning, more and more and more. Even though it wasn't The Way. And I started asking more -- and then told to "obey."

[cman]

That's typical Outfield.

Draw you in with the pretence of care and love.

Though some actually did.

Then after being a 'grad' you were expected to do everything they said.

It was set up that way.

The class showing you who's in charge,

and it wasn't God or Jesus Christ.

The will and word of God was whatever the so called gift ministries said.

[waterbuffalo]

It's the lobster analogy, outfield.

They didn't hit you over the head and say "obey." It happened gradually until you were sucked in.

[excathedra]

i understand outfield

i was so comforted and loved and "set free" from crazy guilt from much of my past (as much of a past you can have at 18)

but then it became so much worse

forget about being "set free" from childhood abuse and catholic stuff and so many other things

god is good. veepee and twi not

[socks]

Basically, I was accepted and then it started turning, more and more and more.

Absolutely true. I joke about it but it's absolutely true that the best place to be in, in regards to the Way, is when you're checkin' it out. You're Fresh Fish, a New Person. A valued addition to any meeting. "We got a new peop!" Everyone's nice to you, you can do wrong, really, as long as you're reasonably civil and friendly. Anything you do wrong is an "error of ignorance". You don't know any better!

Course you will reach a point where something's going to be expected of you, and not just once. Again and again and again.

Take THIS class and it will answer all your questions. Now, take THIS class and it will build on that.

Now take THIS class and it will really get you going.

Now take THIS class and you won't know yourself when you're done. Which is good because there's going to be another class soon, and it will help if you forget that you had all your questions answered in the first one.

Now, I have to be honest, this was not my experience for many of the years I was in the Way. Many many fine people didn't have that cold calculation going, where the clock is ticking and once you're 5 minutes over your Freshness Date, you're no good to anyone anymore. That wasn't always the way it was. The idea of helping people and enjoying it all was prominent.

But I would agree that's the way it was for a lot of people the year I left and it sounds like it just continued down that road. Picture Paul Newman and George C Scott at the end of "The Hustler".....

"Eddie... you owe me MONEY!!!!"

Just keep smiling. Everything's fine. Nothing to be concerned about. Sign here.

[johniam]

Outfield: When were you with TWI? Because it got really ugly in about 1994 and it was heading that way for the 5 years before.

[rascal]

It was mighty ugly in 1979 as well. You were golden, God`s elite special forces as long as you were producing...taking classes, going wow, preparing for corpes...etc

Do anything less and you were a spiritual cop out, a bump on the log spirituallyand just an all around dissapointment to God.

In later years...it was more of a black mail thing....tithe.... witness ....fellowship...run classes....sponsorship...instant obedience ...the list was endless...or God wouldn`t spit in your direction...

You were very fortunate to have only been exposed for a very short time no matter when you were involved.

Edited August 21, 2007 by rascal

[Oakspear]

It was mighty ugly in 1979 as well.

I think it was Ryebread, a poster we don't see around these days, who said that she got out in 1973 and things were getting ugly then.

[WordWolf]

Within a cycle of 3-5 years (for some people, less)

interactions in twi degraded drastically..

Stage 1: Honeymoon stage.

Everyone loves you, you are precious in God's sight, and therefore in twi's sight.

The classes will explain everything once you take them.

Stage 2:Sunset stage.

You're loved, but there's expectations of performance-with social sanctions in place for conformity.

The classes you took answered a few questions, but your REAL questions will be answered further up-

in the Advanced class, or once you enter the wow program (you'll see it in action)

or it's reserved for the corps.

Since you're expected to know better, the "everyone loves you" thing has faded, unless of course

it's from family members in the way (and even then there are no guarantees....)

Stage 3:Hard lessons stage.

Reality has kicked in. The classes offered more questions than answers- even if specific answers

were claimed to be in classes. You're expected to be a top performer, so you don't "feel the love"

unless you're performing- witnessing, and otherwise spouting the company line at the drop of a hat.

You have SOME answers, but not all the important ones, and you wonder where the love went.

(Unless of course you have family members in the way-which is still no guarantee...)

You've now seen things at twi locations, and found some never matched the hype. However,

speaking of that incurs social sanctions (you're "speaking negatives" and so on), since inconvenient

truths are never to be spoken of in twi. Unofficial (and sometimes designated) thought police will

clamp down ruthlessly on any dissent they find.

The organization you saw in Stage 1 in no way resembles the organization you saw in Stage 3.

Responses to Stage 3 vary, and can include convincing yourself that what you saw was all incorrect

and twi doctrine WAS correct, and can also include getting fed up and leaving.

That's why there were cycles of people leaving- there were cycles of people ENTERING.

When they reached Stage 3- or Stage 3 reached them like in the pop letter being read, or lcm drawing

his line in the sand in 89- they often left. Most of them complained the organization was a lot worse than

a few years ago, when they arrived. In some cases, that was true-

but usually, it just meant they knew a LOT more about things than they once did.

===========

Then again, from 1969-1973, things DID change.

In 1969-1970, the rank-and-file were the Jesus People and the Groovy Christians,

whom H33fn3r and D00p spoke Christ to, and they responded in a major way.

Around 1973 was when vpw kicked out H33fn3r and D00p, and declared all the local money and local

loyalty were to be shipped entirely to hq.

(This is when he finished "hijacking the hippies.")

So, rules and regulations DID suddenly replace God's love and no earthly regulations.

Often, in other timeframes, that was secondary to the PERCEPTION of that changing.

[WordWolf]

Then again,

there WERE events every once in a while that "shook people out of the magnolias",

crystallizing what they'd already been seeing, or that got their attention so they started

looking around, and in each case, led to exits from twi one way or another.

twi had its first surge of membership at the end of the 60s, when the hippies were hijacked.

Some of them left when around 73- the "no rules and lots of God's love" of the Jesus People

was kicked out in favour of twi-endorsed and twi-trained leaders.

After 1976, I expect there was a mini-burp as well. The Watchtower Society ("Jehovah's Witnesses")

has learned through their own history that the end-of-the-world-crisis means LOTS of people join up

as the apocalypse approaches-

and then LOTS of people leave as it passes and the world is still here.

twi in 1976 had their first (AFAIK) end-of-the-world-crisis, so I expect they had the same thing

happen in 1977, where some people walked out.

In 1979, twi was at its apex, member-size-wise. It was also around the time there were enough

corps (twi-trained leaders) to spare to run all the territories, placing them at the top from the trunk,

region, limb, and territory levels. (Which meant the branch coordinators best cooperate...)

In the early 1980s, vpw put lcm- who was poorly-trained and poorly-educated for the task-

in charge of twi, from being in charge of the corps (which he was poorly-trained and poorly-educated

for as well.) The rules and regulations multiplied, and this came to a head in 1985.

In 1985, vpw died, which shocked some people expecting Jesus to return in his lifetime,

and cg wrote the pop paper, which was then read to large numbers of them,

and the top leadership rolled over.

(For those who never read it, it's in its entirety here:

http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/waydal...-patriarch.html )

In 1989, lcm drew his line in the sand, and demanded an oath of loyalty from all leaders,

and fired all the ones that refused to do exactly that.

("I respect you but my sworn loyalty is to God and your demand is unScriptural"

meant "you're fired".)

In 1994, lcm cancelled the ROA, and finished making his draconian corps measures

the standard for all of twi.

In 1999-2000, twi admitted in court that they knew about lcm using his office to have sex with women.

Each of those seems to have resulted in posters here saying "That's when I got fed up, realized things were

not going to get better, and left twi."

(I'm not so certain about 1977.)

[oldiesman]

Now, I have to be honest, this was not my experience for many of the years I was in the Way. Many many fine people didn't have that cold calculation going, where the clock is ticking and once you're 5 minutes over your Freshness Date, you're no good to anyone anymore. That wasn't always the way it was. The idea of helping people and enjoying it all was prominent.

That's the way it mostly was for me too socks. I tripped out the times it wasn't. :)

[Nottawayfer]

Outfield: When were you with TWI? Because it got really ugly in about 1994 and it was heading that way for the 5 years before.

He said he wasn't in TWI. He must have been in an offshoot.

[anotherDan]

I was drawn (1973) by the possibility of taking the Bible seriously, and there were marvelous discoveries to be made therein. I was drawn by the simplicity of the love of the believers, their kindness and patience and honesty. Their joy and laughter were contagious. I enjoyed the big stuff... the ROA, the programs and all, but that wasn't what kept me. It was those original things that I was drawn to, and I stuck it out in forebearance and love until I could no longer see how those things could continue. I should have seen the handwriting on the wall much sooner, but I didn't. The lobster analogy applies to me. I left in 1990, or thereabouts.

But I still love loving people, and am still partial to honesty, taking the Bible seriously, continued marvelous discoveries in it (it is a treasure, just like we thought it was!), and kindness and patience with people, whether they "know the truth" or not.

Lo and behold, some of the marvelous discoveries I'm making today were there all along, outside the Way box, in the writings of faithful men and women, and written on the lives of people all around me. Maybe it's still possible that "this little light of mine" can remain lit in a dark and anxious world.

Edited August 22, 2007 by anotherDan

[WordWolf]

I was drawn (1973) by the possibility of taking the Bible seriously, and there were marvelous discoveries to be made therein. I was drawn by the simplicity of the love of the believers, their kindness and patience and honesty. Their joy and laughter were contagious. I enjoyed the big stuff... the ROA, the programs and all, but that wasn't what kept me. It was those original things that I was drawn to, and I stuck it out in forebearance and love until I could no longer see how those things could continue. I should have seen the handwriting on the wall much sooner, but I didn't. The lobster analogy applies to me. I left in 1990, or thereabouts.

Isn't it a terrible shame that what you were sold wasn't the reality?

But I still love loving people, and am still partial to honesty, taking the Bible seriously, continued marvelous discoveries in it (it is a treasure, just like we thought it was!), and kindness and patience with people, whether they "know the truth" or not.

Lo and behold, some of the marvelous discoveries I'm making today were there all along, outside the Way box, in the writings of faithful men and women, and written on the lives of people all around me. Maybe it's still possible that "this little light of mine" can remain lit in a dark and anxious world.

You're still a Christian, you're still the person you were- only moreso.

You're no longer shackled to THEIR version of anything, no longer limited to THEIR limitations.

[anotherDan]

Isn't it a terrible shame that what you were sold wasn't the reality?

Well, to me, it was the reality. Did I fall short of that kindness, that love, that honesty? Yes. Many times. So did others. It has taken me a LONG time to grow up, and I have no excuse. (And I still have a long way to go.) I almost feel bad because I didn't have to endure the depths of depravity others on this board have spoken about. And I pretty much completely missed TWI2, for which I am most grateful. It sounds absolutely horrible. What may have been going on behind the scenes was not a part of my experience. I am still growing out of my own foolishness, as well as the stuff that was wrong with the teaching and practice in the Way.

I just read your comment on another thread, WW, where you said that you wished you'd have been a part of the Way Ministry that they experienced. (Even though you were spared the heavier damage that others suffered.) I wish you had, too. But your experience and others who may have suffered more than you did should be heard, and you should do all you can to see that others are not taken advantage of, lied to, or anything else that is contrary to God's will.

If not you, certainly others feel that the whole thing was a sham. I can respect that, particularly with all the testimonies that have been made about people being sexual predators, copyright poachers, and money-hungry, self-absorbed "leadership." No doubt at least some of that was true. I did not escape the fallout for being naive, either. I have no standing to expect anyone to move beyond that stuff, because it's taken me many years to move beyond much lesser damage that I suffered as a result of others' shortcomings, as well as my own. IMO, we should all be able to listen to each other, and how we experienced what we did with a view to understanding, comforting, and encouraging one another, so we can all move ahead and on to something much better.

Was I sold a bill of goods? You seem to think so, and in some measure I would agree with you. But I disagree with your implication that the Way Ministry that I experienced didn't build godly, profitable qualities in my life.

You're still a Christian, you're still the person you were- only moreso.

You're no longer shackled to THEIR version of anything, no longer limited to THEIR limitations.

Yes I am, and moreso, as you said. And I'm no longer shackled and limited to their "box" as I called it. And I'm glad I'm not. I still have a long way to go, as I said, and perhaps with your help I will get there. And if some way I can be there for you, I would like that.

Edited August 23, 2007 by anotherDan

[likeaneagle]

Your a very good man adan..GBU heart!

[johniam]

quote: He said he wasn't in TWI. He must have been in an offshoot.

He said he wasn't in the way officially, but was a grad of piffle. He probably didn't hang around long enough to learn all the "correct terminology". I'm still curious as to when that was.

Edited August 23, 2007 by johniam

[polar bear]

Another Dan-ditto. You hit the nail right on the head.

The people were great. There were some honest loving folks. And there were some who believed and taught the Word with an honest heart and a non traditional approach. It really did draw us in.

I just wish I would have seen it sooner that VP was messed up with his ego and money hungry heart

[anotherDan]

Actually, on further reflection, I think my reply should have agreed more with WW's "bill of goods" concept. I'm still processing, I guess. I don't like all the naysaying and judging, and it hurts my heart to have been deceived, but I have to admit that now, I think I was. Somehow, underneath my sorrow and regret, there is still faith and thanksgiving, because God is smarter than men. He has sustained me and He remains as my Teacher, my Friend, and my Authority.

[WordWolf]

In fairness, I do agree with some of what you said without qualification.

I just read your comment on another thread, WW, where you said that you wished you'd have been a part of the Way Ministry that they experienced. (Even though you were spared the heavier damage that others suffered.) I wish you had, too. But your experience and others who may have suffered more than you did should be heard, and you should do all you can to see that others are not taken advantage of, lied to, or anything else that is contrary to God's will.

My thinking is, if twi's reality matched its claims, we wouldn't be here sharing behind-the-scenes stories.

We'd be here, still in, largely agreeing with doctrine and policies. (Most of us-I imagine some would have moved on

regardless, and there would be some faces we don't have now as well.)

I think that sharing the ugly truths about twi is necessary, albeit somewhat distasteful.

If not you, certainly others feel that the whole thing was a sham. I can respect that, particularly with all the testimonies that have been made about people being sexual predators, copyright poachers, and money-hungry, self-absorbed "leadership." No doubt at least some of that was true. I did not escape the fallout for being naive, either. I have no standing to expect anyone to move beyond that stuff, because it's taken me many years to move beyond much lesser damage that I suffered as a result of others' shortcomings, as well as my own. IMO, we should all be able to listen to each other, and how we experienced what we did with a view to understanding, comforting, and encouraging one another, so we can all move ahead and on to something much better.

Growing PAST twi is a goal for almost everyone here.

(The rest want to replicate their twi experience, and since they are adults, they're entitled to try even if I

disagree strongly.)

Was I sold a bill of goods? You seem to think so, and in some measure I would agree with you. But I disagree with your implication that the Way Ministry that I experienced didn't build godly, profitable qualities in my life.

As a Christian, I believe some of what was taught- and some of what was practiced, both locally and corporately-

was on the mark.

As a Christian, I believe some of it was not- and both practice and doctrine in some cases made the entire experience

harmful. Not for nothing were we warned "a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump."

(I Corinthians 5 AND Galatians 5.)

God wanted to let us know that perfectly godly stuff-with a small amount of adulteration- can be degraded

so it's no longer what He wanted.

(If one is to believe I Corinthians 5 and Galatians 5, anyway- I've seen someone argue against it while claiming

they believe the whole Bible.)

Yes I am, and moreso, as you said. And I'm no longer shackled and limited to their "box" as I called it. And I'm glad I'm not. I still have a long way to go, as I said, and perhaps with your help I will get there. And if some way I can be there for you, I would like that.

I say the same. That's largely why I'm here.

(My time on the game threads notwithstanding.)

Actually, on further reflection, I think my reply should have agreed more with WW's "bill of goods" concept. I'm still processing, I guess.

Still growing and still alive, hey, that's fine.

I don't like all the naysaying and judging, and it hurts my heart to have been deceived, but I have to admit that now, I think I was.

You've gotten farther than some people-not that we're in a race or anything...

Somehow, underneath my sorrow and regret, there is still faith and thanksgiving, because God is smarter than men. He has sustained me and He remains as my Teacher, my Friend, and my Authority.

Those of us still Christians, we all say that.

One organization that shrank into obscurity inside of 50 years, that's an eyeblink in God's story.

[anotherDan]

Thanks, WW

[sprawled out]

In 1979, twi was at its apex, member-size-wise. It was also around the time there were enough

corps (twi-trained leaders) to spare to run all the territories, placing them at the top from the trunk,

region, limb, and territory levels. (Which meant the branch coordinators best cooperate...)

just for the record, i was a branch leader on long island in 1979 (also my apprentice year in the corps). there were loads of people around then, and we worked hard and were incredibly busy--BUT we also had a LOT of fun. I remember branch leader weekends (monthly?) where it seems like we laughed for hours. we also did lots of silly, goofy things like go christmas carolling in a mall, acting like we were in a hollywood musical, spinning on lamp posts and stuff. it was some of the most fun i ever had without a guitar around my neck.

if i had to characterize that year, i'd say there was a complete absence of bullsh!t. except maybe for storing up all those buckets full of dry food. (was that '79 or '78?)

just for the record.

[doojable]

just for the record, i was a branch leader on long island in 1979 (also my apprentice year in the corps). there were loads of people around then, and we worked hard and were incredibly busy--BUT we also had a LOT of fun. I remember branch leader weekends (monthly?) where it seems like we laughed for hours. we also did lots of silly, goofy things like go christmas carolling in a mall, acting like we were in a hollywood musical, spinning on lamp posts and stuff. it was some of the most fun i ever had without a guitar around my neck.

if i had to characterize that year, i'd say there was a complete absence of bullsh!t. except maybe for storing up all those buckets full of dry food. (was that '79 or '78?)

just for the record.

One thing about us New Yorkers... we know how to have fun without the BS.

[Oakspear]

just for the record, i was a branch leader on long island in 1979 (also my apprentice year in the corps). there were loads of people around then, and we worked hard and were incredibly busy--BUT we also had a LOT of fun. I remember branch leader weekends (monthly?) where it seems like we laughed for hours. we also did lots of silly, goofy things like go christmas carolling in a mall, acting like we were in a hollywood musical, spinning on lamp posts and stuff. it was some of the most fun i ever had without a guitar around my neck.

if i had to characterize that year, i'd say there was a complete absence of bullsh!t. except maybe for storing up all those buckets full of dry food. (was that '79 or '78?)

just for the record.

Sprawled - I was on Long Island that same year, although not in your branch; it was right before I went WOW and less than 2 years after I first took PFAL. Overall I'd say that most of you Branch Leaders were decent folks, and as I recall, none of you were Corps grads either. But absence of BS? No way. There were red flags even then.

[sprawled out]

Sprawled - I was on Long Island that same year, although not in your branch; it was right before I went WOW and less than 2 years after I first took PFAL. Overall I'd say that most of you Branch Leaders were decent folks, and as I recall, none of you were Corps grads either. But absence of BS? No way. There were red flags even then.

everybody's got one, oak--a point of view, that is.

i think you're right, there were no corps grads among us. at least 2 were interim corps, though, and i think almost everyone else was apprentice. our area leader was a 6th corps grad, and he was hard-core about moving the word--but he was never a pr!ck about it. in fact, he was a GREAT guy. the best. we were all serious about what we were doing, but the folks i was close to were all terrific. (thinking back, one was kind of an a-hole. but i wouldn't blame that on twi. i think he was a self-made a-hole!)

of course there were red flags--we were pushing PFAL! i was just making the point that some of us were still having fun in '79. (then again, i even had fun during corps training--in between periodic face-meltings! maybe i'm just a fun guy.)

and dooj--you know it! :P

Edited August 23, 2007 by sprawled out