Even the guys that didn`t mean to be boogers were conditioned to believe that their wives were emotional creatures, who`s feelings would allow satan in the door. COnstant vigilance must be maintained, a distancing of ones self from their emotions in order to be firm and protect themselves, their wives and their children.
Even WORSE...the wives...omg it is hard to type this...but I was taught to believe the above, and that if my husband loved me, that he would protect me from myself, because my emotions rendered me a danger and unstable. That given the chance, as a woman, I would lead mybeloved down the same path the eve led Adam.
I honestly believed that if my husband ever struck me, it was because I deserved it. I should have shut up, I should have behaved myself. My perception and opinion was simply not to be considered, because who knew when it was a trick.
I was warned of dire consequences if I ever got fat or ugly....and get this...I believed that I would have deserved them.
Folks, what they taught the young men was despicable. What they taught the young women much much worse.
We were conditioned to believe that any abuse suffered that we had coming. If we were good wives, if we took care of our men, we would be ok. Any troubles, and our only resource was to pray, to placate, to gently entreat...
It was a terrible terrible thing to do to people.
I wanted to put this in in response to the comment about Adam and Eve, so, a few things can be clarified....
Genesis 3:6 (KJV) And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make on wise, she took of the fruit thereof and did eat, and gave also to her husband WITH her; and he did eat.
Adam was with Eve, therefore, without excuse. He wasn't out in the woods praying or naming animals as some would suppose, he was right there with Eve. The message was given directly to him from God, and he should have spoken up.
I can't help but be moved by what you've written here. TWI tore my family apart. It was just as bad for the kids.
I was a kid growing up in TW from about the time I was two until I was 15. My father was a horrible man, and The Ways teaching only allowed him to get away with what he was doing. He committed adultery multiple times, and my mom turned a blind eye to it cause he was the "man of God." She figured she wasn't meeting his "sexual needs." I also remember it being taught by VP that wives/women are supposed to meet a man's sexual needs so he can focus on the spiritual things....sheesh!
My father abused us in multiple ways that I don't care to disclose, but believe me if you can imagine it it''s not far off. My mom turned a blind eye to this as well because he was "the man of God," and she figured she couldn't cope with out him. First came God (at least that's the rumor). Then he was the Head, he comes first in everything cause he's the man of God.... Then us kids.... Ack! It was awful.
When we finally broke away for TW my father was kind enough to rip everything I understood as God out from under me, and replaced it with nothing.
I remember when I was 13, my father confined me to the attic. I told him that I needed to use the restroom, and he refused. I was so fed up with his stuff that I stood there on the steps leading up to the attic, looked him straight in the eye and ....ed myself. After all was said and done, he never denied me the right to use the bathroom again.
You're absolutely right, what TW teaches is disastrous for relationships and children.
oh ((((Ben))) Oh gosh, I am sorry. It was horrible for us, but gosh you poor children. At LEAST I was an adult dealing with this crap.
I agree with you, TWI enabled horrible people to be even more horrible, only this time under the guise and protection of God.
I can only cringe when I read your account, I know that I probably would not have been any more capable of standing up for my children and myself than your mom was, as despicable as this sounds.
Not because I lacked courage, not because I wasn`t outraged, not because my heart didn`t break, not because I was afraid of any man. What I could not and was not willing to do was go against what I was taught God required.
I was so broken down, that I did not think that I could survive without God, which was the only alternative to defying the abuse, defying of the husband, even if he was grossly out of line meant that we would be defying God. We were taught that if we obeyed, even when the husband or the leader was wrong, that God would bless and honor us for our heart, he would see that everything would be ok. I was taught that if I ever left the ministry or my husband for any reason, that the children and I would become possessed and die.
We were taught, and believed that we were shielding and protecting our babies from spiritual possession and death, that the difficulties of living with twi crap was far more preferable than an eternity of no spiritual rewards for you guys.
Fortunately for my kids we left while they were young. Even then, we still had a great deal to unlearn as far as parenting.
We all were so trapped. I am so sorry for what you and the other way children endured because of our collective stupidity.
I can remember thinking that way kids were SO lucky to be raised in the word by believer parents. I think that I believed you would all grow up to become some sort of spiritual super heros :(
Now mind you, I don't dislike JAL. I rather like him. He's fun to talk to and I really like butting heads with him and messing with his head pointing out his absurd thinking.
I'd like to hear about how you did that; maybe in another thread.
He tries real hard to be a servant leader, but servant leadership just wasn't taught at TWI...
oh ((((Ben))) Oh gosh, I am sorry. It was horrible for us, but gosh you poor children. At LEAST I was an adult dealing with this crap.
I agree with you, TWI enabled horrible people to be even more horrible, only this time under the guise and protection of God.
I can only cringe when I read your account, I know that I probably would not have been any more capable of standing up for my children and myself than your mom was, as despicable as this sounds.
Not because I lacked courage, not because I wasn`t outraged, not because my heart didn`t break, not because I was afraid of any man. What I could not and was not willing to do was go against what I was taught God required.
I was so broken down, that I did not think that I could survive without God, which was the only alternative to defying the abuse, defying of the husband, even if he was grossly out of line meant that we would be defying God. We were taught that if we obeyed, even when the husband or the leader was wrong, that God would bless and honor us for our heart, he would see that everything would be ok. I was taught that if I ever left the ministry or my husband for any reason, that the children and I would become possessed and die.
We were taught, and believed that we were shielding and protecting our babies from spiritual possession and death, that the difficulties of living with twi crap was far more preferable than an eternity of no spiritual rewards for you guys.
Fortunately for my kids we left while they were young. Even then, we still had a great deal to unlearn as far as parenting.
We all were so trapped. I am so sorry for what you and the other way children endured because of our collective stupidity.
I can remember thinking that way kids were SO lucky to be raised in the word by believer parents. I think that I believed you would all grow up to become some sort of spiritual super heros :(
The thing is, you all weren't stupid. You're intelligent beautiful people. You were brainwashed. They used your faith and desire to serve the Lord for their own purposes. I understand a thing or two about occults. From the outside looking in it's a beautiful thing. They don't start out with the crazy nonsense, no, they start out with the stuff that sounds right and fits what we understand. Then they take the truth, and twist in tiny little ways that barely noticeable until it all adds up to one big fact. They'll claim it's right, then they use fear, peer pressure and religion to keep you in line, and to prevent you from questioning. Because we were integrated slowly we don't quite recognize the lie until it's almost too late. That is not your fault, it's theirs. Your faith, sincere desire to serve the Lord and emotions were manipulated by by experts. It's the proverbial frog in water on a hot stove. The frog doesn't realize the water is getting hot until it's boiling, but by then it's too late.
It's kinda like the German people during World War II. Hitler didn't jump in and start killing Jews. He started slowly. When he did try to implement the final solution too early, the people rejected it. So, he took the road I mentioned above. When German citizen say they didn't know about the killings, many of them weren't lying--they were programed not to look.
God removed you from this situation before it was too late.
My mom was floating in the same boat as you were when it came to standing up to my father. I've grown up since then, and I am a new person, and God has been faithful. I don't blame my parents for what The Way did. You shouldn't blame yourself.
Instead of mingling with other Christians in other denominations, all he wants to do is take someone else's ideas and put a TWI spin on them.
Loved the "It-Getter" page. Your statement about putting a TWI spin on things is how they continue their "research." They read books by Christian counselors [like the books on Boundaries], and then expound on them.
What is amazing to me is that they don't see it. JAL appears to be intelligent enough, but he falls far short in understanding the realities of life.
JAL gave up a baseball career to be leadership in the way. I have had a few run in with him. One was over believing equals receiving which I said I did not believe and he told me to get out of the corps. Which I did but when it suited me and on my terms. I have no respect for him. When the way was breaking up. I believe he saw his lively hood going out the window and started his own ministry. He did not know how to do anything else. He got others to follow him and finance him. All the books he wrote were on the arrgont side. That the way people are better than others. We are all sinners that is why we should be humble because of where we came from and realize wher others are at.
What is amazing to me is that they don't see it. JAL appears to be intelligent enough, but he falls far short in understanding the realities of life.
It's almost like he's clueless.. maybe he is. I really think, as a self-esteemed "prophet" or "minister" or whatever ministry hat he chooses to wear, he really believes that:
1. He's right. Yep. "the word" ALWAYS "works", doesn't it? That may be part of the reason he doesn't have a whole heck of a lot to do with other christians.. with different views than his..
2. As one who "labors in the word" he is worthy and deserving of our support. Financially, physically, mentally.. if not *him*.. then his *ministry*.
I think he really thinks the "believers" owe him a living.. and if not him, his organization.. his "package", unlike anything since the earth cooled.. *his* conjunction of "truths"..
Loved the "It-Getter" page. Your statement about putting a TWI spin on things is how they continue their "research." They read books by Christian counselors [like the books on Boundaries], and then expound on them.
What is amazing to me is that they don't see it. JAL appears to be intelligent enough, but he falls far short in understanding the realities of life.
I would have to say that all of them are wildly intelligent; just not too well endowed with common sense.
At first, they were willing to look at anything. It was like opening up a box of chocolates and sampling everything. I really enjoyed that time because it was like going from a dark room into a bright light. For the first time there could be some honest discourse and people felt free to have opposing viewpoints.
Then there came Momentus. In my view, that was the beginning of the big shutdown. If you didn't feel that Momentus was what you wanted to do, then you were somehow just not spiritual enough. There was more than a twinge of corp attitude among those who had attended and it stepped up a notch for those who assisted or worked on teams - to the extent that some of them actually began to strut like corp guys did when walking into a room (was that taught?). I flat out said that if I wanted to put up with that kind of crap, I would have stayed in TWI. At that point, we quit fellowshipping. Sunday morning fellowship (God forbid that it be called "church") was supposed to be a spontaneous display of gifts, when it was just as staged as tongues and prophecy at TWI. I found that out when I showed up early and found people rehearsing so the "spontaneity" would flow better. I also found out about the true lack of "spontaneity" when I actually tried to inject some. Talk about rocking the boat.
Then "Dialog" was renamed "Contender". CES went from a willingness to exchange ideas to assertion that its ideas were correct, and therefore not up for debate.
By the time DG arrived, CES was pretty much there in terms of shutting down any dissension. I read DG's "rules" for being allowed to run a CES sanctioned fellowship and believed those rules were every bit as oppressive as any twig. Strict rules regarding liturgy (not that it was called that) and what would be taught and how. I pointed out the similarities and got this dazed look that comes across the face of most TWI indoctrinated guys when confronted with logic emitting from the mouth of a female.
The only difference between TWI and CES is there is no clear charismatic leader. JAL is pretty tarnished. JS has no charisma, unless one is enthralled by drywall. DG does and in a slick VPW sort of way. Not sure the wife would go for the antics that appear requisite to being a charismatic leader as defined by TWI, but Dan's the only one that has the recognized type of charisma.
There are doctrinal differences. I give them credit for trying to improve. Also I believe JS is a hero for speaking the truth about adultery back then. To hell with charisma.
The only difference between TWI and CES is there is no clear charismatic leader.
Not today..
I think they are very much alike.. more so now than ever..
No *real* charismatic leader.. in my opinion, rosie doesn't exude "greatness".. and "twigs" are likely soooo bland, it might be more intellectually challenging to stuff ice down one's pants..
all that seems to be left, is hype, and their *charismatic leaders* can't cough up very much of that..
all that's left seems to be a form of vain boasting.. j.l. has his "package" "unparalleled" in content, since the first century.. rosie and gang have their *ministry* of "over sixty years of *biblical* research"..
it's really pathetic..
what have either organization done *biblically* in recent years? They CLAIM to be "biblical" organizations..
one has left a trail of abuse, manipulation, spiritualistic practices, intrigue, lawsuits.. and a "no compromise" position as to what they PERCEIVE to be the will of gawd..
the other one, well, it's left us.. another trail of abuse, manipulation, spiritualistic practices, intrigue, lawsuits.. and a "no compromise" position as to what they PERCEIVE to be the will of gawd..
From the CES Doctrinal Issues statement, there is this:
[Along this same line, Eve's mistake in Genesis 3: 1-5 was not that she "considered" the Serpent's words, but that she failed to compare what the Serpent said with what God said. To say that she should not have even thought about an alternative viewpoint shuts down healthy inquiry and the freedom to develop personal convictions. It is a subtle but deadly form of "brainwashing" and fosters unhealthy dependence upon teachers and tradition, often at the expense of truth and a "good conscience"]
Perhaps worst of all, a golden opportunity to make known the Word of God, as it had not been known since the first century, was squandered.
The Way. It was. What was it? First and foremost, it was, from about 1955-1987, the only place I know of
where anyone could hear the amount of truth of the Word of God that we heard.
Like I, you may know of some ministries that do teach some of these truths, but I submit that until 1987
there was nowhere other than TWI to find all of them taught as accurately as they were there.
That is why The Way International stands out on the spectrum of Church history as an amazingly significant Christian movement.
----------------------------------------
Huh???
If it was the greatest thing since sliced bread, why do they now feel they must clarify that they disagree with what they were taught on 26 (count 'em) major doctrinal points?
Perhaps worst of all, a golden opportunity to make known the Word of God, as it had not been known since the first century, was squandered. I will elaborate upon why that is true from a doctrinal standpoint, but when else in the history of the Christian Church has there ever been such a cadre of thousands of young, energetic, enthused, biblically knowledgeable, logistically equipped, organizationally backed, diverse, multi-lingual, mobile, available, and committed-to-“It-is-written” men and women with leadership qualities who were willing to go anywhere and spread the Word? Certainly not often in the past 2000 years. Thank God that many of these students of the Word became teachers themselves, and were thus able to recognize the errors that crept into TWI.
All I can say is.... Why did JL break away from the Way when he seems to appreciate their doctrine as much as they do....
JL is no different that those the are a part of the Way in his beliefs, and if he thinks otherwise he's sadly mistaken. All he's done is allowed for continued abuses, and the creation of another occult that robs people.
Great man of God my foot!
I take that back, not my foot.... I'd use my foot, but I like my foot and my boot. Could see it now, give him a swift Godly kick in the behind. It would be a three legged race, him running for the hospital and me trying to get my foot out of his butt. Other than that I'd lose my boot and nothing would be accomplished. <_<
All I can say is.... Why did JL break away from the Way when he seems to appreciate their doctrine as much as they do....
JL is no different that those the are a part of the Way in his beliefs, and if he thinks otherwise he's sadly mistaken. All he's done is allowed for continued abuses, and the creation of another occult that robs people.
Great man of God my foot!
I take that back, not my foot.... I'd use my foot, but I like my foot and my boot. Could see it now, give him a swift Godly kick in the behind. It would be a three legged race, him running for the hospital and me trying to get my foot out of his butt. Other than that I'd lose my boot and nothing would be accomplished. <_<
**Sigh**
Honey, he didn't leave - he was fired. Not too sure why he got involved in writing the letter at all as he was married with spiritual "benefits" as well.
Honey, he didn't leave - he was fired. Not too sure why he got involved in writing the letter at all as he was married with spiritual "benefits" as well.
My bad.... Typed too soon.... :) Thanks for the correct.
Thing is, I don't get is why fire someone as dedicated as him... If I were an occult, I would've kept him and tolerated the little irritations.
To stop the itch, irritations and rashes are best handled with Cortizone cream. Rub a little on, the itch stops, and you go on about your business.
Scratch, well, it spreads and ..... we know the rest of the story.....
My bad.... Typed too soon.... :) Thanks for the correct.
Thing is, I don't get is why fire someone as dedicated as him... If I were an occult, I would've kept him and tolerated the little irritations.
To stop the itch, irritations and rashes are best handled with Cortizone cream. Rub a little on, the itch stops, and you go on about your business.
Scratch, well, it spreads and ..... we know the rest of the story.....
Not that I've ever had a rash or anything....
**A little humor and sarcasm there** ;)
Because while VPW was a charismatic leader and could sweet talk his way out of just about anything. LCM was not and could not. He was a "leader" by position, not by calling. That's why he simply got rid of anyone who wasn't "loyal" to him. I'm sure it was hard for him to realize that the people's loyalty to VPW did not translate to him.
John Lynn, who once served as a high level leader in The Way International (TWI) and now serves as a high level leader in a TWI splinter group, Christian Educational Services (CES) / Spirit and Truth fellowship (STF) wrote a letter defending TWI in June 2008 titled The Way, It Was. TWI’s primary error, Lynn says, was that “we became too arrogant toward other Christians.” Ironically, the main premise of the letter repeats and defends the most arrogant of TWI’s assertions and balderdash– that TWI was the most significant group in the last 2,000 years of church history and that it alone had true teaching and biblically knowledgeable followers. Lynn repeats several aspects of TWI’s arrogant claim:
“(TWI was)... one of the most significant movements in the history of the Christian Church (p. 1) .....
“a golden opportunity to make known the word of God, as it had not been known since the first century” (p. 2)
“When else in the history of the Christian Church has there ever been such a cadre of thousands of young, energetic, enthused, biblically knowledgeable, logistically equipped, organizationally backed, diverse, multi-lingual, mobile, available, and committed-to-‘It-is-written’ men and women with leadership qualities who were willing to go anywhere and spread the Word? Certainly not often in the last 2,000 years.” (P.2)
“...it was, from about 1955-1987, the only place I know of where anyone could hear the amount of truth of the Word of God..... to put the Word together like it had not been known since the first century Church.” (P.2)
“(TWI) stands out on the spectrum of Church history as an amazingly significant Christian movement.” (P.4)
Lynn does not seem to understand the ramifications of the valid criticisms of TWI that he himself raises, nor know what a “significant Christian movement” looks like.
By Their Fruits You Will Know Them
Jesus Christ warns us,
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' (Matthew 7:15-21)
Lynn himself lists many kinds of bad fruit in TWI,
“Yes, there was more doctrinal error than I ever realized while I was in TWI, and there was corresponding practical error that became more evil than most of us involved ever imagined, Yes, many people were terribly abused. Yes, there was dishonesty about Scripture, there was plagiarism, and there was rampant sexual sin, all of which contributed to many people choosing to turn away from God and His Word.” (P.1)
“egregious evil” (p. 4)
“TWI failed to teach us that we can have an intimate relationship with the Lord Jesus” (p.3)
“abuses they themselves committed” (p. 4)
(Link to) “a detailed list of biblical subjects I think TWI mishandled” (p.5)
This is probably a longer and more severe list of bad fruit than that ascribed to the chief priests of Jesus’ day. As Jesus notes, the bad fruit does not mean that a basically good tree produced a few bad apples, but that the tree itself is bad and must be “cut down and thrown into the fire.” But here John Lynn is admiring, honoring and defending the bad tree instead. Lynn treats grotesquely deadly errors as though they are trivial. “Egregious evil” that fails to lead people into a relationship with Jesus Christ and prompts people “to turn away from God and His Word” is the work of Satan, not a work of God.
Furthermore, Titus 1 and 1 Timothy 2 detail the essential qualifications of church leaders. The apostle emphasizes that men who do not meet the qualifications should not be honored or followed. Yet Lynn implicitly honors TWI leaders who fail these biblical tests.
What Does a “Significant Christian Movement” Look Like?
When Lynn says that TWI was “an amazingly significant Christian movement,” (P.4) it appears that he does not have a real picture of what such a Christian movement really is. A genuinely significant movement reaches large numbers of people over a long period of time, makes lasting changes in their spiritual lives, and centers on Jesus Christ.
To understand the difference between TWI and genuinely significant Christian movements, it would be helpful to compare TWI to some movements which began during the same time period as TWI and continue today, namely the Billy Graham Organization and Calvary Chapel.
Billy Graham was born only two years after TWI’s founder V. P. Wierwille (though Wierwille died much younger, which according to his theology shows that he was guilty of negative believing). Graham vaulted into the public eye at his eight week Los Angeles Crusade in 1949, two years after Wierwille started Chimes Hour Youth Caravan on radio (www.billygraham.org). In 1957, when Wierwille resigned from his pastorate under pressure, Graham’s nightly Crusade in New York was extended to 16 weeks. Over the years Graham has preached to live audiences of 215 million people in 185 countries. Today about 150 TV stations broadcast old Graham Crusades five to seven times a year. His “Hour of Decision” radio program ran nightly for over 50 years. Decision magazine has a circulation of 600,000 and World Wide Pictures has produced 150 movies in 38 languages which have been viewed by 250 million people. Graham wrote 27 books, most selling over 1 million copies each.
Graham’s ongoing impact was not just in leading people to Christ, but also in training thousands of Christians to do evangelism. Another long term impact was in facilitating interdenominational cooperation and unity. Every Crusade is led by a steering committee composed of local leaders from many denominations and backgrounds. The Graham organization has done much to unite the Church not by formal organization, but through informal relationships and cooperation.
Money and sex were never downfalls for Graham as they were for Wierwille. He never appointed his own family to control the board of directors as Wierwille did. While Wierwille had a constant procession of young women visiting him in his bedroom at all hours of the day and night, Graham carefully followed his rule to never be alone with any woman except for his wife, whether in public or in private.
Calvary Chapel began during the Jesus movement in the 1970s, the time TWI gained steam (www.calvarychapel.org). But Calvary helped power the movement, while TWI just leached followers from it. Chuck Smith began the mother church in Costa Mesa, California in 1965. During a two-year period in the mid 70s, it performed over 8,000 baptisms and was instrumental in over 20,000 conversions to the Christian faith. The church now numbers 20,000, and perhaps 140,000 have counted it as their home church in the last 40 years -- more than the 100,000 people who apparently have taken TWI’s foundational course (the average church adds 30% of its membership every five to seven years, though Calvary Chapel has probably well exceeded this given its prominence in Southern California). There are now 1,346 affiliate Calvary Chapels around the world, many of them local mega-churches such as Greg Laurie’s Harvest Fellowship in Riverside, California which has a membership of 15,000 and does several Billy Graham-like crusades a year. Millions of Christians hear radio and television programs by Calvary Chapel pastors every year across the nation
Calvary Chapel founded Maranatha Music in 1971, which is the dominant force in worship music in the world today. Over 120,000 church leaders have attended their worship workshops and hundreds of millions of Christians around the world use Maranatha music in weekly worship.
Calvary Chapel has had a major, ongoing impact by facilitating a new worship style in the Church around the world. It also had a major impact in promoting “nondenominational” Christianity. Calvary amounts to a denomination (it has an association of approved churches, trains clergy, holds pastor and church conferences, facilitates missions and does other things denominations are designed to do). But it helped promote the “nondenominational” emphasis on the central tenets of the Christian faith with a de-emphasis of secondary doctrines that often distinguish denominations. It also helped popularize the idea of a pre-trib rapture, although this is held by only a small percentage of world wide Christianity.
Lynn can’t think of any group of thousands of young people who go to spread the Word as TWI’s WOW Ambassadors and Way Corps did. (Perhaps Lynn doesn’t remember many WOWs, many of whom were immature, untrained refugees from college and no where near the gold standard he claims. TWI also set them up for sexual sin by placing groups of two single men and two single women in the same house. Apparently he isn’t aware of Campus Crusade for Christ International (CCCI), InterVarsity Christian Fellowship (IVF) and similar organizations.
CCCI was founded by Bill Bright on the UCLA campus to reach students (www.ccci.org). There are now 25,000 self-supported staff members (mainly full time) in 191 countries. In the last 50 years, hundreds of thousands of staff have spread the Word in campuses and communities in many settings.
InterVarsity Christian Fellowship serves 31,000 students and faculty on 580 campuses (www.intervarsity.org). They are served by 864 undergraduate chapters and 163 graduate or professional chapters led by 871 field staff. They reported 1,986 first time professions of faith in Jesus Christ in 2007 alone and worked on scores of mission projects around the world. InterVarsity Press publishes about 90 new books a year. Most major college campuses today have a CCCI or IVF group.
Books on the history of Christian such as Roland Bainton’s Christianity describe many significant movements of God over the centuries. These are often called “revivals” and typically include a resurgence of worship, a feature distinctly lacking in TWI. TWI in its prime couldn’t hold a candle to the sunlight of these true movements of God.
Most of these groups were part of the Jesus movement which spread across North America and Europe in the late 1960s and 1970s. The broad “counter-culture” of that era was the anti-establishment hippie movement which emphasized sex, drugs, rock and roll, New Age spirituality, rebellion and situational ethics in which there is no absolute moral code. This has become today’s American culture as the hippies aged and become politicians and leaders in society. The Jesus movement was counter-cultural in that it pointed people to pure love (rather than sexual promiscuity) and ultimate moral authority and truth in the Bible. CCCI organized a Jesus movement event called Explo ‘72 in Dallas which attracted 80,000 young people, including this author. The Jesus movement dramatically impacted American Christianity by providing contemporary worship music (like Maranatha music), providing leaders for church and parachurch groups (like this author) and centering Christianity on the Bible as infallible authority, a belief many main line denominations gave away in the last half of the century.
All these organizations are members of the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability, requiring ethical accounting procedures and public disclosure of finances which TWI would never make. For most of TWI’s existence, Wierwille and his brother Harry controlled all aspects of TWI, including all its money, because they made themselves the majority on the three-person Board of Trustees.
Compared to the impact these (and other organizations, such as Focus on the Family, World Vision and the charismatic movement, of which Wierwille’s mentor J. E. Stiles was a part) groups have made on Christianity around the world, TWI is not just a drop in the bucket, but a drop in the seven oceans of the world. They are movements of God in ways that TWI never was. They have impacted hundreds of millions of Christians, led millions to profession of faith in Jesus Christ, been led by leaders with integrity and godliness, provided sound Biblical teaching, and had wide spread impact for over 50 years– and counting.
By contrast, TWI had only 13 prosperous years before it imploded, its “research” is unaccepted and unknown today, it affected a very, very tiny number of people (compared to total population), it distracted people from repentance and a relationship with Jesus Christ, and the majority of people who were involved in it are still struggling with the negative consequences today. When TWI spoke of “witnessing” they did not mean introducing people to Jesus Christ, but recruiting people to pay to take TWI’s class.
Biblical “Research”
John Lynn also lauds the “biblical research” of TWI. Ironically, he states that it taught the Word as it had not been known since the first century, while also admitting that most of it was plagiarized from others, primarily from E. W. Bullinger. You can’t have it both ways- as unknown for 2,000 years, and as the result of stealing others’ writings.
The most outstanding characteristic of TWI’s biblical research is that is it unknown. If you ask 10,000 people on the street who V. P. Wierwille is, what TWI is and what books they published, you’ll get 10,000 blank stares. Regardless of what field of research, quality researchers are known. Wierwille’s “research” is unknown because it is extremely poor.
Lynn claims that TWI had much more impact than the Reformation. Yet Luther and the Reformation impacts every Christian today. Christians sing hymns and songs that have verses because the Reformation popularized this kind of congregational signing which was essentially unknown before then (called “bar” tunes not because they were sung in saloons, but because they have short bars, or verses, that are repeated). More non-Lutherans than Lutherans read Martin Luther today. His biblical teachings on the Word of God being the sole rule for faith and practice and on grace and faith dominate the Christian church today, 500 years later. We continue to translate the Bible into native languages because Luther launched this practice with his German Bible, which is still in use today. By contrast, Wierwille is unknown. True movements of God are not cloistered in just a few acres of northwestern Ohio.
CES and TWI single out Wierwille’s teaching that Jesus Christ is Not God and his book by that title as the flagship achievement. But apparently Lynn does not actually consider TWI research to be worthy of any notice whatsoever. Lynn co-wrote an anti-Trinitarian book called One God and One Lord (OGAOL). But Lynn never once quotes or even mentions JCING. There are 122 books in the bibliography, but it lists not even one by Wierwille or TWI. If Wierwille and TWI were such powerhouses of biblical research they would have to be quoted repeatedly.
It is easy to see why Lynn is ashamed of JCING. This “research” book on the most important topic in the Christian faith– who Jesus Christ is– is less than 33,000 words long. This is several thousand words less than there are in a single issue of a magazine like Newsweek. The “book” doesn’t even qualify as a magazine. Lynn even contradicts or rejects many arguments used in JCING.
JCING shows no signs of serious research at all. Its only footnotes are in chapter one, a very brief history that was not even written by Wierwille. Another chapter was originally a short magazine article, and a third was a transcription of a brief sermon (recorded by TWI as tape 295) with only shallow two or three sentence comments on important Biblical passages.
Jesus Christ is not God did not convince anyone by sound logic or use of Scripture. Wayers accepted JCING in totality because they totally accepted everything Wierwille said because they believed he was “The Man of God for our day and time” who taught and spoke by revelation. It was not important what JCING said– only that Wierwille said it. They accepted what Wierwille said with blind devotion much as early Mormons accepted polygamy and six-foot tall residents on the moon because their “Prophet” Joseph Smith said so. Cult leaders like Wierwille expect their followers to obey all they say no matter what it is. By contrast, if Billy Graham or Chuck Smith would have published JCING, their readers would have roundly rejected it, rather than unquestioningly accepting it as Wierwille’s followers did. Cult followers like TWI dutifully obey their leaders while deceiving themselves into thinking that they are thinking for themselves.
Lynn and other Wayers accepted Wierwille’s writings as sound research (even revelation) because he was “The Man of God,” not because it was quality research. Lynn even today parrots Wierwille’s lines including “the Word as it had not been known since the first century,” which were words of Wierwille quoted in Elena Whiteside’s book The Way- Living in Love, p. 178. Many ex-Wayers continue to live by “The Man of God” myth even while superficially denying it.
Whose Word?
Lynn’s letter repeats two key errors of TWI.
Lynn says that V. P. Wierwille put together a combination of teachings which were “the Word as it had not been known since the first century.” He admits that Wierwille was a plagiarist (who stole other’s ideas), serial adulterer (who stole others’ wives and fiances), megalomaniac (who promoted himself as “The Man of God”) and greedy man who used his teachings on the Law of Tithing and Law of Prosperity to induce people to pay for his luxuries. Wierwille undoubtedly does not qualify as a godly leader according to the traits required by Titus and Timothy but does qualify as a false prophet by Jesus’ definition. Yet, Lynn honors his teachings and thoughts.
Lynn proudly repeats TWI’s phrase, “The Word of God is the will of God.” But at the same time he declares that the Gospels, half of Acts and much of Revelation are not authoritative today. In reality, he counts only a small part of the New Testament as the will of God, just as TWI does.
The Gospels are the foundation of the “intimate relationship with Jesus Christ” that Lynn admits TWI never taught. A major reason TWI lacked this is because it declared that the words of Jesus Christ were not written to them (or any Christians since Pentecost). This is like telling a bride to have an intimate relationship with her husband, but adding that his love letters were written to another woman. CES wants to restore intimate relationships with Jesus Christ while continuing to hold a major cause of the problem, its extreme view of “administrations” (called “ultradispensationalism”).
John Lynn claims that he and CES are keeping the Word alive and moving all over the world (p.5). But whose word are they keeping alive? Wierwille’s word.
Haven't looked in on this thread for a while, and then Isaw that Pawtucket had posted that long and excellent response from John Juedes.
John, thanks for your response. It really puts a different perspective on things. Not even a drop in 7 oceans... They closed the doors of our minds so completely that even if JC himself had appeared we wouldn't have recognized him.
Paw, thanks for finding this and posting it. JJ's perspective is always enlightening.
Somewhat off topic, and because I reviewed posts from way back, I found this:
...omg it is hard to type this...but I was taught to believe the above, and that if my husband loved me, that he would protect me from myself, because my emotions rendered me a danger and unstable.
How many times did I get, "You're too emotional!" yelled at me? Always by a male in some sort of "superior" leadership posiition. Usually because I was excited about the forthcoming event we were all preparing for (especially in rez). If I'm happy, I show it. Is that wrong? I always thought that God gave us emotions so that we could be happy, enjoy things, etc. He didn't have to; He could have made us incapable of emotion. Robots. Machines.
But Rascal's post and the response of others to it has shown me that was just yet another form of bullying women -just like so much other abuse - not specific to me at all except that I am female.
Thanks, another step along the road to recovery.
:D
(thought I'd give you some emotion, orat least emoticons. Because I CAN!)
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geisha779
The letter of Assumptions--by St. John the divine of Indiana This is what happens when people isolate themselves from the Christian community at large. No accountibility. John, get out there and mee
geisha779
Word Wolf--That. . . was. . . an. . . AWESOME read!! Thank-you for that effort. Astute very astute!
ihrleben
Just read the excerpts of the John Lynn letter.
I only have one thing to say about his letter..... Are you S**TIN ME!
I'm going to go and watch Teletubbies on the telly so I can numb my brain a bit more.... Maybe I'll drool on my shirt while I'm at it....
**Leaves room**
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ihrleben
Not going as planned, satellite probs, sorry for multiple postings
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ihrleben
I wanted to put this in in response to the comment about Adam and Eve, so, a few things can be clarified....
Genesis 3:6 (KJV) And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make on wise, she took of the fruit thereof and did eat, and gave also to her husband WITH her; and he did eat.
Adam was with Eve, therefore, without excuse. He wasn't out in the woods praying or naming animals as some would suppose, he was right there with Eve. The message was given directly to him from God, and he should have spoken up.
I can't help but be moved by what you've written here. TWI tore my family apart. It was just as bad for the kids.
I was a kid growing up in TW from about the time I was two until I was 15. My father was a horrible man, and The Ways teaching only allowed him to get away with what he was doing. He committed adultery multiple times, and my mom turned a blind eye to it cause he was the "man of God." She figured she wasn't meeting his "sexual needs." I also remember it being taught by VP that wives/women are supposed to meet a man's sexual needs so he can focus on the spiritual things....sheesh!
My father abused us in multiple ways that I don't care to disclose, but believe me if you can imagine it it''s not far off. My mom turned a blind eye to this as well because he was "the man of God," and she figured she couldn't cope with out him. First came God (at least that's the rumor). Then he was the Head, he comes first in everything cause he's the man of God.... Then us kids.... Ack! It was awful.
When we finally broke away for TW my father was kind enough to rip everything I understood as God out from under me, and replaced it with nothing.
I remember when I was 13, my father confined me to the attic. I told him that I needed to use the restroom, and he refused. I was so fed up with his stuff that I stood there on the steps leading up to the attic, looked him straight in the eye and ....ed myself. After all was said and done, he never denied me the right to use the bathroom again.
You're absolutely right, what TW teaches is disastrous for relationships and children.
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rascal
oh ((((Ben))) Oh gosh, I am sorry. It was horrible for us, but gosh you poor children. At LEAST I was an adult dealing with this crap.
I agree with you, TWI enabled horrible people to be even more horrible, only this time under the guise and protection of God.
I can only cringe when I read your account, I know that I probably would not have been any more capable of standing up for my children and myself than your mom was, as despicable as this sounds.
Not because I lacked courage, not because I wasn`t outraged, not because my heart didn`t break, not because I was afraid of any man. What I could not and was not willing to do was go against what I was taught God required.
I was so broken down, that I did not think that I could survive without God, which was the only alternative to defying the abuse, defying of the husband, even if he was grossly out of line meant that we would be defying God. We were taught that if we obeyed, even when the husband or the leader was wrong, that God would bless and honor us for our heart, he would see that everything would be ok. I was taught that if I ever left the ministry or my husband for any reason, that the children and I would become possessed and die.
We were taught, and believed that we were shielding and protecting our babies from spiritual possession and death, that the difficulties of living with twi crap was far more preferable than an eternity of no spiritual rewards for you guys.
Fortunately for my kids we left while they were young. Even then, we still had a great deal to unlearn as far as parenting.
We all were so trapped. I am so sorry for what you and the other way children endured because of our collective stupidity.
I can remember thinking that way kids were SO lucky to be raised in the word by believer parents. I think that I believed you would all grow up to become some sort of spiritual super heros :(
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Mark Clarke
I'd like to hear about how you did that; maybe in another thread.
It was "taught," just not practiced.
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ihrleben
The thing is, you all weren't stupid. You're intelligent beautiful people. You were brainwashed. They used your faith and desire to serve the Lord for their own purposes. I understand a thing or two about occults. From the outside looking in it's a beautiful thing. They don't start out with the crazy nonsense, no, they start out with the stuff that sounds right and fits what we understand. Then they take the truth, and twist in tiny little ways that barely noticeable until it all adds up to one big fact. They'll claim it's right, then they use fear, peer pressure and religion to keep you in line, and to prevent you from questioning. Because we were integrated slowly we don't quite recognize the lie until it's almost too late. That is not your fault, it's theirs. Your faith, sincere desire to serve the Lord and emotions were manipulated by by experts. It's the proverbial frog in water on a hot stove. The frog doesn't realize the water is getting hot until it's boiling, but by then it's too late.
It's kinda like the German people during World War II. Hitler didn't jump in and start killing Jews. He started slowly. When he did try to implement the final solution too early, the people rejected it. So, he took the road I mentioned above. When German citizen say they didn't know about the killings, many of them weren't lying--they were programed not to look.
God removed you from this situation before it was too late.
My mom was floating in the same boat as you were when it came to standing up to my father. I've grown up since then, and I am a new person, and God has been faithful. I don't blame my parents for what The Way did. You shouldn't blame yourself.
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Rejoice
Loved the "It-Getter" page. Your statement about putting a TWI spin on things is how they continue their "research." They read books by Christian counselors [like the books on Boundaries], and then expound on them.
What is amazing to me is that they don't see it. JAL appears to be intelligent enough, but he falls far short in understanding the realities of life.
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Green Hornet
JAL gave up a baseball career to be leadership in the way. I have had a few run in with him. One was over believing equals receiving which I said I did not believe and he told me to get out of the corps. Which I did but when it suited me and on my terms. I have no respect for him. When the way was breaking up. I believe he saw his lively hood going out the window and started his own ministry. He did not know how to do anything else. He got others to follow him and finance him. All the books he wrote were on the arrgont side. That the way people are better than others. We are all sinners that is why we should be humble because of where we came from and realize wher others are at.
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Ham
It's almost like he's clueless.. maybe he is. I really think, as a self-esteemed "prophet" or "minister" or whatever ministry hat he chooses to wear, he really believes that:
1. He's right. Yep. "the word" ALWAYS "works", doesn't it? That may be part of the reason he doesn't have a whole heck of a lot to do with other christians.. with different views than his..
2. As one who "labors in the word" he is worthy and deserving of our support. Financially, physically, mentally.. if not *him*.. then his *ministry*.
I think he really thinks the "believers" owe him a living.. and if not him, his organization.. his "package", unlike anything since the earth cooled.. *his* conjunction of "truths"..
beliefs apparently are not negotiable..
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anotherDan
John, if you're reading this, I get the impression that Ham (and others) disapproves of your conduct and thinking.
added "and others"
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Tzaia
I would have to say that all of them are wildly intelligent; just not too well endowed with common sense.
At first, they were willing to look at anything. It was like opening up a box of chocolates and sampling everything. I really enjoyed that time because it was like going from a dark room into a bright light. For the first time there could be some honest discourse and people felt free to have opposing viewpoints.
Then there came Momentus. In my view, that was the beginning of the big shutdown. If you didn't feel that Momentus was what you wanted to do, then you were somehow just not spiritual enough. There was more than a twinge of corp attitude among those who had attended and it stepped up a notch for those who assisted or worked on teams - to the extent that some of them actually began to strut like corp guys did when walking into a room (was that taught?). I flat out said that if I wanted to put up with that kind of crap, I would have stayed in TWI. At that point, we quit fellowshipping. Sunday morning fellowship (God forbid that it be called "church") was supposed to be a spontaneous display of gifts, when it was just as staged as tongues and prophecy at TWI. I found that out when I showed up early and found people rehearsing so the "spontaneity" would flow better. I also found out about the true lack of "spontaneity" when I actually tried to inject some. Talk about rocking the boat.
Then "Dialog" was renamed "Contender". CES went from a willingness to exchange ideas to assertion that its ideas were correct, and therefore not up for debate.
By the time DG arrived, CES was pretty much there in terms of shutting down any dissension. I read DG's "rules" for being allowed to run a CES sanctioned fellowship and believed those rules were every bit as oppressive as any twig. Strict rules regarding liturgy (not that it was called that) and what would be taught and how. I pointed out the similarities and got this dazed look that comes across the face of most TWI indoctrinated guys when confronted with logic emitting from the mouth of a female.
The only difference between TWI and CES is there is no clear charismatic leader. JAL is pretty tarnished. JS has no charisma, unless one is enthralled by drywall. DG does and in a slick VPW sort of way. Not sure the wife would go for the antics that appear requisite to being a charismatic leader as defined by TWI, but Dan's the only one that has the recognized type of charisma.
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oldiesman
There are doctrinal differences. I give them credit for trying to improve. Also I believe JS is a hero for speaking the truth about adultery back then. To hell with charisma.
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Ham
Not today..
I think they are very much alike.. more so now than ever..
No *real* charismatic leader.. in my opinion, rosie doesn't exude "greatness".. and "twigs" are likely soooo bland, it might be more intellectually challenging to stuff ice down one's pants..
all that seems to be left, is hype, and their *charismatic leaders* can't cough up very much of that..
all that's left seems to be a form of vain boasting.. j.l. has his "package" "unparalleled" in content, since the first century.. rosie and gang have their *ministry* of "over sixty years of *biblical* research"..
it's really pathetic..
what have either organization done *biblically* in recent years? They CLAIM to be "biblical" organizations..
one has left a trail of abuse, manipulation, spiritualistic practices, intrigue, lawsuits.. and a "no compromise" position as to what they PERCEIVE to be the will of gawd..
the other one, well, it's left us.. another trail of abuse, manipulation, spiritualistic practices, intrigue, lawsuits.. and a "no compromise" position as to what they PERCEIVE to be the will of gawd..
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waysider
From the CES Doctrinal Issues statement, there is this:
[Along this same line, Eve's mistake in Genesis 3: 1-5 was not that she "considered" the Serpent's words, but that she failed to compare what the Serpent said with what God said. To say that she should not have even thought about an alternative viewpoint shuts down healthy inquiry and the freedom to develop personal convictions. It is a subtle but deadly form of "brainwashing" and fosters unhealthy dependence upon teachers and tradition, often at the expense of truth and a "good conscience"]
----------------------------------------------------
From The Letter there is this:
Perhaps worst of all, a golden opportunity to make known the Word of God, as it had not been known since the first century, was squandered.
The Way. It was. What was it? First and foremost, it was, from about 1955-1987, the only place I know of
where anyone could hear the amount of truth of the Word of God that we heard.
Like I, you may know of some ministries that do teach some of these truths, but I submit that until 1987
there was nowhere other than TWI to find all of them taught as accurately as they were there.
That is why The Way International stands out on the spectrum of Church history as an amazingly significant Christian movement.
----------------------------------------
Huh???
If it was the greatest thing since sliced bread, why do they now feel they must clarify that they disagree with what they were taught on 26 (count 'em) major doctrinal points?
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doojable
Here is the link to JAL's June 2008 letter.
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=420113
He still believes that:
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Ham
I think jl would have been ahead of the game if he just left it at that..
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ihrleben
All I can say is.... Why did JL break away from the Way when he seems to appreciate their doctrine as much as they do....
JL is no different that those the are a part of the Way in his beliefs, and if he thinks otherwise he's sadly mistaken. All he's done is allowed for continued abuses, and the creation of another occult that robs people.
Great man of God my foot!
I take that back, not my foot.... I'd use my foot, but I like my foot and my boot. Could see it now, give him a swift Godly kick in the behind. It would be a three legged race, him running for the hospital and me trying to get my foot out of his butt.
Other than that I'd lose my boot and nothing would be accomplished. <_<
**Sigh**
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Ham
actually, I think that is the heart of his new "redemptive view" of der vey..
it was "bad", but it wasn't really "that bad"..
if he paints the old ministry in it's true light.. then how does he paint his "ministry"?
"error slowly crept in.." in other words, he believes, or claims there was a time when all was holy, pure and wonderful..
when the reality of the matter, the organization and herr "doctor" appear to be corrupt from day one..
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Tzaia
Honey, he didn't leave - he was fired. Not too sure why he got involved in writing the letter at all as he was married with spiritual "benefits" as well.
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ihrleben
My bad.... Typed too soon.... :) Thanks for the correct.
Thing is, I don't get is why fire someone as dedicated as him... If I were an occult, I would've kept him and tolerated the little irritations.
To stop the itch, irritations and rashes are best handled with Cortizone cream. Rub a little on, the itch stops, and you go on about your business.
Scratch, well, it spreads and ..... we know the rest of the story.....
Not that I've ever had a rash or anything....
**A little humor and sarcasm there** ;)
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Tzaia
Because while VPW was a charismatic leader and could sweet talk his way out of just about anything. LCM was not and could not. He was a "leader" by position, not by calling. That's why he simply got rid of anyone who wasn't "loyal" to him. I'm sure it was hard for him to realize that the people's loyalty to VPW did not translate to him.
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pawtucket
Here is a rebuttal by Dr. John Juedes
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GrouchoMarxJr
Well now...that was quite a rebuttal.
Mr Lynn, it sounds like you've been called out...and this guy even uses his real name!
Speak up!...after composing the letter that you did...can you back up your words by addressing Dr. Juedes letter?
YOU wrote the letter...do you dare respond here?
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Twinky
Haven't looked in on this thread for a while, and then Isaw that Pawtucket had posted that long and excellent response from John Juedes.
John, thanks for your response. It really puts a different perspective on things. Not even a drop in 7 oceans... They closed the doors of our minds so completely that even if JC himself had appeared we wouldn't have recognized him.
Paw, thanks for finding this and posting it. JJ's perspective is always enlightening.
Somewhat off topic, and because I reviewed posts from way back, I found this:
How many times did I get, "You're too emotional!" yelled at me? Always by a male in some sort of "superior" leadership posiition. Usually because I was excited about the forthcoming event we were all preparing for (especially in rez). If I'm happy, I show it. Is that wrong? I always thought that God gave us emotions so that we could be happy, enjoy things, etc. He didn't have to; He could have made us incapable of emotion. Robots. Machines.
But Rascal's post and the response of others to it has shown me that was just yet another form of bullying women -just like so much other abuse - not specific to me at all except that I am female.
Thanks, another step along the road to recovery.
(thought I'd give you some emotion, orat least emoticons. Because I CAN!)
End "off topic."
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