And nobody should be alarmed that the county records do not agree (in the value) with that shown on the combined balance sheet filed with the Arizona Corporation Commission. The purpose of the county records is to value them for calculation of property taxes (if not exempt) and the balance sheet reflects cost less accumulated depreciation (as previously noted, for the buildings, equipment and machinery, but NOT on the land).
I agree. County valuations also do not necessarily reflect actual "real life" sale value.
I read the Ohio report and nearly burst out laughing at TWI's articles of incorporation where it states it's purpose is"for the improvement of spiritual, moral and intelectual of it's members". Wonder if they served koolaid to the Secretary of Ohio and they now claim they are a church. Hmm! Bet VP is spining in his grave.
In 1985 I went on the Bible Lands Tour with twi followers. At the time I was on the Research Team. I remember on the boat ride we took across the "Sea of Galilee," I wondered about the difference between what an organization like ours was doing, really, and what Jesus did back in his time. Were we really doing something good like he probably did? Christ certainly didn't run an organization like ours, if the gospels are any reflection of what went on. What do we think we're doing with such a set up like ours?
I didn't have the nerve then to voice my growing doubts about running a so-called Christian ministry in the 20th century largely based on what Paul sort of did, not what Jesus did.
What is the real need for any group like twi in the world? What is the point of making money off of a bible class? Who is benefiting?
I sorta went to college to learn about accounting... but last worked in the field (as an accountant) 10 years ago.
All the aptitude tests I took before entering Penn State told me that I should be an accountant...but despite my eternal aptitude with numbers, I knew I would never have the temperament for it. I needed more variety in my life's work...like the changing weather.
And nobody ever asked me to work with numbers in TWI.
What is the real need for any group like twi in the world? What is the point of making money off of a bible class? Who is benefiting?
What is so wrong is they made that money off the backs of God's children, just like the many other religions that do the same.
It's the kind of thing young people in the '60's and '70's eschewed-the organized religion-full of fear tactics, lording over people, dressing people up in suits singing orderly hyms at church listening to their preacher using the scriptures as a club, while the churches rake in the money-operating like a warehouse for christian searchers-giving only enough to draw them in and keep them there.
It turned into exactly what we didn't want and away from what appealed to us in the beginning.
It is important that the dark hidden secrets of twi reach the light of day, are spoken about and stay uncovered.
It seems a lot of the drive of twi boiled down to money, even with the current twi regime- keeping the money that they have now.
The concern about the people was minimal, the broader concerns about the betterment of the world and your fellow man were minimal, the concerns about the followers relationship with God-minimal. Keeping the organization alive so that the money would come in is what we got, and using the people to that end is what it was all about.
The fact that the words biblical research were/are included in the description of the ministry was a complete slight of hand con job. Penworks, I'm sure you saw this first hand, especially with the athlete's of the spirit declarations....
The AZ report above notes about 19 million invested in Money Market accounts, since these have lost at least 50% recently, the twi leaders must be in a real tizzy by now.
The AZ report above notes about 19 million invested in Money Market accounts, since these have lost at least 50% recently, the twi leaders must be in a real tizzy by now.
They'll probably start a new recruitment drive and work real hard to convert old members back into the fold, using people as merchandise to feed the beast.
They'll probably start a new recruitment drive and work real hard to convert old members back into the fold, using people as merchandise to feed the beast.
I posted this recently on the Mark & Avoid thread.
I also remember a time (1973 or 1974) when there was a huge push to contact any and all grads who had tripped out and recruit them back into the fold. The goal was to show their names on class attendance sheets.. (I think this may have been some kind of qualifying test for branch leaders who were WC candidates.) In this instance, the branch leaders met with their twig leaders at the weekly twig leader meeting and handed out printed lists of all the people in the area who were PLAF grads but tripped out. This list apparently came from International HQ or, at the very least, Limb HQ. Then, at the monthly branch leaders meeting, the branch leaders were called upon to show how they had increased their active numbers. In reality, it was a convoluted form of artificially inflating sales numbers.
A friend of mine who was pretty high up on the twi ladder questioned Rosie about the dwindling ABS.
Her answer was something like it doesn't really concern me because we have more than 40 million in savings.
Twi is just a money grab that's all.
I think they would have done more good for mankind selling something tangible like "reading glasses" or something we could really use now in our old age.
A friend of mine who was pretty high up on the twi ladder questioned Rosie about the dwindling ABS.
Her answer was something like it doesn't really concern me because we have more than 40 million in savings.
Twi is just a money grab that's all.
I think they would have done more good for mankind selling something tangible like "reading glasses" or something we could really use now in our old age.
I dunno... I get my reading glasses at the local dollar store... and pay ONLY $1.00 for a pair... they'd have to find something they could do better than the dollar stores...
Back in 1975-76 when I was a WOW, one of my duties was to mail our family's abundant sharing to HQ. Each Friday I would go to the bank for a money order, and mail it in along with some form they gave us. At the end of the WOW year, I received a summary statement from HQ that supposedly showed all of our contributions for the year. That summary they sent was not correct. It was off. Way off. They shorted our recorded contributions. Most of the money we sent was apparently never recorded as part of our "official" contributions. I've often wondered how common an occurrence that was at HQ, to simply lie about the amount of money being received. I kept my copies of those weekly forms and that annual summary, somewhere, I should dig them out again.
Interesting. I was a Twig Leader for many years (1980-1992). I sent in the "Blue Forms" with the ABS, but I never received a summary statement at the end of the year. I wonder if TWI did away with that practice, or was it only for WOWs?
Back in 1975-76 when I was a WOW, one of my duties was to mail our family's abundant sharing to HQ. Each Friday I would go to the bank for a money order, and mail it in along with some form they gave us. At the end of the WOW year, I received a summary statement from HQ that supposedly showed all of our contributions for the year. That summary they sent was not correct. It was off. Way off. They shorted our recorded contributions. Most of the money we sent was apparently never recorded as part of our "official" contributions. I've often wondered how common an occurrence that was at HQ, to simply lie about the amount of money being received. I kept my copies of those weekly forms and that annual summary, somewhere, I should dig them out again.
Interesting. I was a Twig Leader for many years (1980-1992). I sent in the "Blue Forms" with the ABS, but I never received a summary statement at the end of the year. I wonder if TWI did away with that practice, or was it only for WOWs?
George
Opera Buff, considering that I NEVER saw such a form either, having sent in abs for over two years at a stretch.. and nobody else I knew ever saw anything like it..I'd say it probably was a "mistake" you got it..
maybe it was intended for whoever was running the branch..
At some point, however, the feds required churches to provide statements for donors to use to back up (use for evidence of) amounts claimed as deductions for tax purposes. I don't remember when that change may have taken place...
At some point, however, the feds required churches to provide statements for donors to use to back up (use for evidence of) amounts claimed as deductions for tax purposes. I don't remember when that change may have taken place...
I received a summary statement from HQ that supposedly showed all of our contributions for the year. That summary they sent was not correct. It was off. Way off.
...Now why doesn't that surprise me?...
...and think about all the money that was collected in the form of cash...all the big meetings where they passed the "horn"...are you kidding me? They would screw your wife but they wouldn't lie about the money?
A friend of mine who was pretty high up on the twi ladder questioned Rosie about the dwindling ABS.
Her answer was something like it doesn't really concern me because we have more than 40 million in savings.
Hmmm...and I thought that the ABS was to open the floodgates of heaven upon those who gave...isn't Rosie concerned about people getting "blessed"? If the ABS is dwindling, then people are simply not "seeing it"...How can the "way people" get blessed if they do not give money to twi? Sounds to me that Rosie should be "ministering" to this need...
...but wait...she claims to have 40 million in savings...ok... I get it now.
At some point, however, the feds required churches to provide statements for donors to use to back up (use for evidence of) amounts claimed as deductions for tax purposes. I don't remember when that change may have taken place...
That's interesting, Rocky. Obviously, most WOWs were in no financial position to itemize tax deductions. We didn't make enough money to do so, at least not those that I knew. I certainly didn't make enough money driving that delivery truck, or working in that burger joint, or that steak & eggs joint, or that.... oh, never mind. When I got that summary, it didn't mean much to me except for the fact it was wrong.
What about today? Are "real" churches required to send donors statements for tax purposes? I don't belong to any church so have no idea. Seems like they ought to.
Also, my memory on this is vague, but I seem to recall HQ required money orders to be sent and didn't want any personal checks. Anyone else remember that?
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waysider
-----------plus the cost of the money order, at a time when the average pay was something like $1.50/hour. But the actual amount is irrelevant. The money collected was supposed to be used to do God'
frank123lol
They(twi) did not CARE how you got the money to them,as long as they got their money,Oh and it better not be late,or you are slothful.You will be reproved,humiliated,marked out.Ok we reproved you,Wher
Tzaia
My memory is that I had more than one corp and WoW person writing me asking for nothing more than stamps, paper, envelopes, and pens. When you don't have much of anything, then stamps are very costly.
HAPe4me
I agree. County valuations also do not necessarily reflect actual "real life" sale value.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
I read the Ohio report and nearly burst out laughing at TWI's articles of incorporation where it states it's purpose is"for the improvement of spiritual, moral and intelectual of it's members". Wonder if they served koolaid to the Secretary of Ohio and they now claim they are a church. Hmm! Bet VP is spining in his grave.
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Ham
Interesting.. what's missing from that list is "physical" "emotional" or "monetary".
just the omission is rather striking..
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penworks
This thread raises an old issue for me.
In 1985 I went on the Bible Lands Tour with twi followers. At the time I was on the Research Team. I remember on the boat ride we took across the "Sea of Galilee," I wondered about the difference between what an organization like ours was doing, really, and what Jesus did back in his time. Were we really doing something good like he probably did? Christ certainly didn't run an organization like ours, if the gospels are any reflection of what went on. What do we think we're doing with such a set up like ours?
I didn't have the nerve then to voice my growing doubts about running a so-called Christian ministry in the 20th century largely based on what Paul sort of did, not what Jesus did.
What is the real need for any group like twi in the world? What is the point of making money off of a bible class? Who is benefiting?
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waysider
Uhmmmm-- That question was posed rhetorically, no?
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Rocky
I think more than one of Penworks's questions were rhetorical in nature.
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Lifted Up
All the aptitude tests I took before entering Penn State told me that I should be an accountant...but despite my eternal aptitude with numbers, I knew I would never have the temperament for it. I needed more variety in my life's work...like the changing weather.
And nobody ever asked me to work with numbers in TWI.
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now I see
What is so wrong is they made that money off the backs of God's children, just like the many other religions that do the same.
It's the kind of thing young people in the '60's and '70's eschewed-the organized religion-full of fear tactics, lording over people, dressing people up in suits singing orderly hyms at church listening to their preacher using the scriptures as a club, while the churches rake in the money-operating like a warehouse for christian searchers-giving only enough to draw them in and keep them there.
It turned into exactly what we didn't want and away from what appealed to us in the beginning.
We should have examined what we were fed.
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penworks
Yes they were.
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now I see
It is important that the dark hidden secrets of twi reach the light of day, are spoken about and stay uncovered.
It seems a lot of the drive of twi boiled down to money, even with the current twi regime- keeping the money that they have now.
The concern about the people was minimal, the broader concerns about the betterment of the world and your fellow man were minimal, the concerns about the followers relationship with God-minimal. Keeping the organization alive so that the money would come in is what we got, and using the people to that end is what it was all about.
The fact that the words biblical research were/are included in the description of the ministry was a complete slight of hand con job. Penworks, I'm sure you saw this first hand, especially with the athlete's of the spirit declarations....
The AZ report above notes about 19 million invested in Money Market accounts, since these have lost at least 50% recently, the twi leaders must be in a real tizzy by now.
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waysider
Maybe they can "believe" their way out of it.
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now I see
Ha ha!
They'll probably start a new recruitment drive and work real hard to convert old members back into the fold, using people as merchandise to feed the beast.
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waysider
I posted this recently on the Mark & Avoid thread.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I also remember a time (1973 or 1974) when there was a huge push to contact any and all grads who had tripped out and recruit them back into the fold. The goal was to show their names on class attendance sheets.. (I think this may have been some kind of qualifying test for branch leaders who were WC candidates.) In this instance, the branch leaders met with their twig leaders at the weekly twig leader meeting and handed out printed lists of all the people in the area who were PLAF grads but tripped out. This list apparently came from International HQ or, at the very least, Limb HQ. Then, at the monthly branch leaders meeting, the branch leaders were called upon to show how they had increased their active numbers. In reality, it was a convoluted form of artificially inflating sales numbers.
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now I see
Wow, they've actually done it before, it will be interesting to hear about it if they do it again and end up contacting GS members.
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polar bear
A friend of mine who was pretty high up on the twi ladder questioned Rosie about the dwindling ABS.
Her answer was something like it doesn't really concern me because we have more than 40 million in savings.
Twi is just a money grab that's all.
I think they would have done more good for mankind selling something tangible like "reading glasses" or something we could really use now in our old age.
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Rocky
I dunno... I get my reading glasses at the local dollar store... and pay ONLY $1.00 for a pair... they'd have to find something they could do better than the dollar stores...
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OperaBuff
Back in 1975-76 when I was a WOW, one of my duties was to mail our family's abundant sharing to HQ. Each Friday I would go to the bank for a money order, and mail it in along with some form they gave us. At the end of the WOW year, I received a summary statement from HQ that supposedly showed all of our contributions for the year. That summary they sent was not correct. It was off. Way off. They shorted our recorded contributions. Most of the money we sent was apparently never recorded as part of our "official" contributions. I've often wondered how common an occurrence that was at HQ, to simply lie about the amount of money being received. I kept my copies of those weekly forms and that annual summary, somewhere, I should dig them out again.
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GeorgeStGeorge
Interesting. I was a Twig Leader for many years (1980-1992). I sent in the "Blue Forms" with the ABS, but I never received a summary statement at the end of the year. I wonder if TWI did away with that practice, or was it only for WOWs?
George
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Ham
Opera Buff, considering that I NEVER saw such a form either, having sent in abs for over two years at a stretch.. and nobody else I knew ever saw anything like it..I'd say it probably was a "mistake" you got it..
maybe it was intended for whoever was running the branch..
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Rocky
Obviously, one possible problem is skimming...
At some point, however, the feds required churches to provide statements for donors to use to back up (use for evidence of) amounts claimed as deductions for tax purposes. I don't remember when that change may have taken place...
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RumRunner
I think (but cannot completely recall) that that happened pretty early on. I remember some uproar when the IRS was reviewing TWI's exempt status (I think IRS code 501©3) and Martindork going off the deep end about government conspiracies etc etc etc
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GrouchoMarxJr
...Now why doesn't that surprise me?...
...and think about all the money that was collected in the form of cash...all the big meetings where they passed the "horn"...are you kidding me? They would screw your wife but they wouldn't lie about the money?
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GrouchoMarxJr
Hmmm...and I thought that the ABS was to open the floodgates of heaven upon those who gave...isn't Rosie concerned about people getting "blessed"? If the ABS is dwindling, then people are simply not "seeing it"...How can the "way people" get blessed if they do not give money to twi? Sounds to me that Rosie should be "ministering" to this need...
...but wait...she claims to have 40 million in savings...ok... I get it now.
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OperaBuff
That's interesting, Rocky. Obviously, most WOWs were in no financial position to itemize tax deductions. We didn't make enough money to do so, at least not those that I knew. I certainly didn't make enough money driving that delivery truck, or working in that burger joint, or that steak & eggs joint, or that.... oh, never mind. When I got that summary, it didn't mean much to me except for the fact it was wrong.
What about today? Are "real" churches required to send donors statements for tax purposes? I don't belong to any church so have no idea. Seems like they ought to.
Also, my memory on this is vague, but I seem to recall HQ required money orders to be sent and didn't want any personal checks. Anyone else remember that?
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