"I'd be dead by now."

[waysider]

"If it wasn't for The Way, I'd be dead by now."

Have you ever heard someone say this? Oh, there are lots of variations. "I'd be in prison." or "I'd be in a mental hospital". Or maybe they've said "If it wasn't for PFAL" or " If it wasn't for Dr." or "If it wasn't for 'the word'". or whatever. I'll bet we've all heard someone say something like this. Hell, I probably even said it myself at some time or other. But where did this thinking come from? What's the earliest time you can remember someone saying this? It might be interesting to find out how this started.

When I was a kid, my aunt lived in the southern California desert. I don't know what it's like now but back then, they had terrible sand storms. You had to seal up every little crack and crevice or the sand would find its way in. I mean, you could open up your underwear drawer and find sand in your shorts! I think some of this cult thinking stuff was like that desert sand, finding its way into every nook and cranny.

So, when you hear someone say, "I'd be dead by now if not for The Way", it's a pretty sure bet they still have some sand in their shorts.

Edited December 24, 2009 by waysider

[waysider]

Just to give a little perspective to this, can you imagine someone from The People's Temple saying, "I'd probably be dead by now if it was for Jim Jones."?

[HAPe4me]

The first time I remember hearing this idea was probably in 1973. I can remember Victor saying from a stage (maybe AC73?) that as he looked out over the audience he saw many "who have told me they would be dead now but for the Word I have taught them, it makes me cry out for joy". (or something to that effect). I remember thinking to myself that there must be a bunch of weird people in that group.

Thinking back on it years later, I figured he made that up, and was planting a thought in our minds about how wonderful it was that he was around to "save" us with his teachings. Sort of "we owe our very living, breathing souls to him". Yikes, it went downhill from there. I was never one to doubt better times were around the corner, I wasn't about to check out of this life early and didn't understand those who would.

[chockfull]

You know, in a certain perspective, I could say this. Yet however, upon deeper reflection, it really had not a thing to do with the Way, and everything to do with God. Yes, I believe God led me in and led me out. The experiences I had were due to my trust in God, and have not ceased upon exiting a flawed hypocritical organization. Suffice it to say, even within a flawed organization, miracles can happen. Miracles depend on the individual and believing, not the integrity of an organization.

[Broken Arrow]

You remember that old Cheech and Chong record where the "Jesus Freak" was "witnessing" to this guy who wanted to sell him a watch. He said, "You know, I used to be all messed up on drugs. But since I found the Lord, now I'm all messed up on the Lord." Still messed up, just a different venue. That's kind of my story, I guess. I was starting to lean to some rather bad behaviors, then I found The Way to get all messed up on, and that was enough! So I didn't get into drugs, didn't become an alcoholic, and barely escaped some other rather broken behaviors. Funny, I've since learned that some of the stuff I managed to stay out of was being practiced by top leadership.

Anyway, maybe Waysider's right. Maybe I still have "sand in my shorts". Maybe my memory is jaded. Maybe all I needed to do was grow up a little and I would have stayed out of all that stuff anyway. So what is it I'm saying? Darned if I know, but thanks for listening. :P

Edited December 24, 2009 by erkjohn

[dmiller]

Last time I had "sand in my shorts", I was at the beach for a day.

Had more fun there that day than I spent with the decade of twi.

Chockfull - - - I hear you, but God and twi are interchangeable words given "the org" in consideration.

Given my "indiscretions as a youth", I shouldn't be here talking/ typing to you.

Twi never saved me from anything, but I can see where that might be different for others.

Still ticks me off that they say "God", while referring to "the org".

And vice versa. They've screwed up verbiage from day one and continue to do so.

[waysider]

Good points, one and all.

It's not an "us vs. them" kind of thing. It's a "we" thing. Anybody whoever taught the "law of believing" or had someone sign "The Green Card" is a part of it. Maybe that's the lesson we're supposed to learn from that section of scripture where the foot says "I wanna be the liver." and all that jazz.

Anyway, I often think it's a bit like one of those brave old souls you see on the evening news. There they are, telling the whole world how they were duped out of their life savings by some sweet talking shyster who feigned genuine interest in their well-being. Why do they do it? I don't know. Maybe they feel it's worth the embarrassment if it helps someone else. Maybe it just gives them a sense of relief to admit their folly. I know one thing. You seldom hear them talk about the wonderful time they had that fateful afternoon as the conman took them to the bank to withdraw their life savings.

[penworks]

"If it wasn't for The Way, I'd be dead by now."

Have you ever heard someone say this? Oh, there are lots of variations. "I'd be in prison." or "I'd be in a mental hospital". Or maybe they've said "If it wasn't for PFAL" or " If it wasn't for Dr." or "If it wasn't for 'the word'". or whatever. I'll bet we've all heard someone say something like this. Hell, I probably even said it myself at some time or other. But where did this thinking come from? What's the earliest time you can remember someone saying this? It might be interesting to find out how this started.

When I was a kid, my aunt lived in the southern California desert. I don't know what it's like now but back then, they had terrible sand storms. You had to seal up every little crack and crevice or the sand would find its way in. I mean, you could open up your underwear drawer and find sand in your shorts! I think some of this cult thinking stuff was like that desert sand, finding its way into every nook and cranny.

So, when you hear someone say, "I'd be dead by now if not for The Way", it's a pretty sure bet they still have some sand in their shorts.

Because I viewed him as the man of God for this day and time (geezz...) and because of that, I mis-gave thanks to him rather than to God, I am ashamed to report that I said the following, which was quoted in the Way Magazine, Jan/Feb 1984:

"...He showed me the Word living, and I owe my life to this ministry."

[nyunknown]

I knew someone (whos name I will not mention) Was studying to be a deacon in the catholic church, but there was scandel reguarding a priest. He left and found the TWI. I can understand why this person left. Its been my point of view that its not the religion but the people running it.

[waysider]

Just to give a little perspective to this, can you imagine someone from The People's Temple saying, "I'd probably be dead by now if not for Jim Jones."?

It was too late to edit. Sorry. I adjusted the original post to convey what I meant to say.

Edited December 24, 2009 by waysider

[geisha779]

It probably did take the abrupt personality change associated with high pressure groups like TWI to get me to change. :) Seriously. . . I wasn't about to go into rehab. . . . my closest family was a 1000 miles away. . . I was really young and liked to party hard. . . . and although I knew I needed help. . . and prayed. . . . I could not wrap my head and heart around the idea of church.

So yeah, in an odd twisted way. . . it probably did save me from a drug or alcohol related early demise. Life is funny.

It was a sideways move . . . . no doubt. . . . but, I did remain vertical.

That is one of the things that kept me convinced it was truth. . . . long after I physically left. . . . the idea that I prayed and TWI came at me from a couple different angles. Never really considered that so did a group of Christians a few buildings over. . . . the sister of an ex-boyfriend. . . and the wife of a neighbor we partied with. . . .

I have actually wondered about that for years. . . . the truth is. . . I would not have listened to anyone else. . . the guy who witnessed to me also got wasted with me first. . . . I didn't really want to change. . . . just slow down. . . . going out drinking after twig. . . meeting in bars. . . . grace as a license to sin. . . . the "no legalism" mantra. . . . all kind of appealed to me.

Hooked me right in. . . before I knew it. . . I was in a cult.

To Add: The girl I lived with. . . who was a school friend from home and got involved with TWI along with me. . . is still involved and high up the food chain. . . . why I got out and she didn't. . . . still makes me wonder.

Edited December 24, 2009 by geisha779

[waysider]

Of course, the other (ugly) side of the coin is that many of us can think of some who "might still be alive if not for The Way."

[nyunknown]

I forgot to finish from my last post here. This "person" had a sister she told me "Thank God for the way it saved my brother". litte did I know at the time this person was in this twi cult.

[Ham]

I remember that stupid claim.. the character who supposedly witnessed to me..

"if it weren't for da way, well, with the amount of drugs I did (do) I'd a be dead.."

affiliation with herr vicster didn't seem to reduce his proclivities for sex, drugs and rock and roll..

maybe *miraculously* he survived.. somehow was immune to the consequences..

Edited December 25, 2009 by Ham

[excathedra]

good post erkjohn

[Keith]

While ulitmatly it was God that saved my life. I will also have to admit that He did through TWI, I also came and went early on and knew nothing of the indiscressions till I tried to go back around 1990, I found it law bound and non-loving. But at the point I was witnessed to I was depressed and suicidal. The only reason that I hadn't killed myself is that I had heard too many horror stories about people who had tried and failed. I want to make absolutly sure that I would do it right. The people who ran the fellowship I went to were very loving and TWI gave me a reason to live. That reason was God and His Son. I was very sorry to hear what was going on in TWI, but after seeing it again after 13 years in the early 90's I wasn't a surprised by it.

There really are people who can say that God through TWI saved their life. I have a feeling that you will find that a great many of those people God led to other groups, like he did me.

[waysider]

I'm sure there are probably people who are alive today because of their Way involvement, though I can't think of any specific examples. On the other hand, there are also people who are dead today because of their Way involvement. For those, I can think of specific examples. But, my point, really, was that the expression, itself, became somewhat of a pledge of allegiance to the organization. Except in specific, verifiable cases, it was really just a parroted phrase that perpetuated itself down through the years as a rallying cry to remain loyal to the cult. People repeated it without any real concern for it's veracity.

[Keith]

You are likely right. Though TWI did appeal to a lot of people who were on the edge, or like me just past it, but hadn't acted yet. I can say that becoming involved in TWI did save my life. However, even then I would have given glory to God, not TWI. So I guess in a way you have on verifiable case. But only God and I really know whether it is true or not. I would say it is.

It is so sad that there are people who would have been alive had it not been for TWI. What is worse is the reason that is true.

Edited December 26, 2009 by Keith

[excathedra]

it's very sad for me to think of friends of mine who committed suicide after having been in the way. were they already predisposed to this? maybe. but i know for sure that they never said they'd be dead if it weren't for the way

[waysider]

it's very sad for me to think of friends of mine who committed suicide after having been in the way. were they already predisposed to this? maybe. but i know for sure that they never said they'd be dead if it weren't for the way

Good point, excie.

And there were those, also, who died trying to prove the law of believing was real.

[excathedra]

i don't think the law of believing helped people really

it's a damn shame a whole chapter in the blue book and a good portion of PFAL and wayfer teachings covered tha t

[potato]

twi almost killed me. it put me into a position of no hope. I found hope again when I looked outside of twi's system, which helped me get out of twi. I've been busy rebuilding my life and am finally at a beginning point of my life, where I was before I got trapped in their abusive system. I have things to look forward to now, and life is enjoyable in a way it never was when all I could do is try to survive the next leadership or spousal attack.

Edited December 27, 2009 by potato

[excathedra]

dear potato, i too lost hope while being in the way

hugs

[potato]

hugs back to you, excie. you helped me heal. I'm so glad we're out!

[GrouchoMarxJr]

Burger King saved my life...if I hadn't stopped for that Whopper and fries I would have surely been hit by that train...

I remember Vic laying that on people all the time...how his "ministry" saved people from certain death...was that before or after he fondeled his 12 year old daughter's breasts?

What's wrong with people? The guy was a drunken pervert. How about the people who committed suicide because of twi?...shall we subtract that number from those who were saved?