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Thus Saith Paul


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10 hours ago, TLC said:

 

 

 

"Okay, you're focused on what Geer might have taught. "

That's what I thought you were asking me about, and I answered making it clear I was addressing HIS positions specifically.

"(I say "might," because I don't actually know. Seems like I may have heard some of what he taught years ago, but if so, I'm just not sure when it was or what he said about it, or what his reasons were for it.)  "

I'm giving him the credit of the doubt when I say that his reason was an honest attempt to understand God that went horribly off-track into what vpw called "private interpretation". That's the best possible motive he could have had for what he taught.  I'm willing to grant him the best possible motive by speculation.

"However... I have read and given some thought (again, some number of years ago) to what others have said on this matter.  As a matter of fact, I think most of it (if not all) falls under a category called "open theism" (which appears to be quite alive and well among some number of bible scholars.)  So, I have serious doubts that Geer was "original" with the concept, and if (as you've alluded to previously) he had ulterior reasons to use it to endorse or promote something else... well, he may have either taught it wrong or not understood it well enough. "

He wasn't original, and I certainly knew that at the time. The book "the Trivialization of God" was published around that time, a book addressing "Open Theism" (I was familiar with the term, and with the existence of the book.)  In fact, "Christianity Today" addressed this subject around that time also-which is how I heard about this stuff pre-internet.

"Otherwise, I  suspect a couple of teenagers would not have had as easy a time with the rebuttal of it as you say they did."

I assure you, we had an easy time of it.  He spent 3 different tapes laying out his position, and we successfully refuted each tape point by point, as well as the entire premise.   Perhaps it might have gone differently with someone else presenting "Open Theism",  but I'm skeptical it would have gone DRASTICALLY different. We refuted the premise in addition to every point he made, attempting to make his case.  But that's an exercise in imagination, at this point.

"'Cause the concept appears to be much more than merely "defensible"... (and when presented correctly and cast in the right light, I'm inclined towards believing it.) 

If anyone is interested in pursuing this a bit further, there's a number of books out there (I don't recall the titles.)  A quick search brought the following site up, maybe it will help:

https://probe.org/god-and-the-future-examining-the-open-view-of-god/

========================================

Well, anyone's welcome to explore different POVs, and different ideas.   I have too much to catch up with now that the World Cup ended.(Vive la France!)

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13 hours ago, WordWolf said:

That's what I thought you were asking me about,

It only started there, because of the (strange, and unexpected) linking of the "overthrow" to Genesis 3:15.  Strange and unexpected, as I don't recall ever hearing anything like that from vpw or twi.

13 hours ago, WordWolf said:

and I answered making it clear I was addressing HIS positions specifically.

Yeah, I got that.  No problem.  I simply had more interest in the concept itself.

13 hours ago, WordWolf said:

I assure you, we had an easy time of it.  He spent 3 different tapes laying out his position, and we successfully refuted each tape point by point, as well as the entire premise.   Perhaps it might have gone differently with someone else presenting "Open Theism",  but I'm skeptical it would have gone DRASTICALLY different. We refuted the premise in addition to every point he made, attempting to make his case.  But that's an exercise in imagination, at this point.

So, if you still have your refutation of his position, I would be interested in reading it (to see how directly it might - or might not - address the general concept.)

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17 hours ago, chockfull said:

Are they all not taking Paul's writings with enough levity?

Seems most want a law to live by, to appear (or feel) more righteous...

Do you know that the harlots in the pagan temples in Corinth shaved their heads?  Made it easy to identify them.
And by the way, hair is the covering Paul speaks of. (Not the hijab... unless maybe you have a shaved head, and don't care to be mistaken for a harlot.) 

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7 minutes ago, TLC said:

Seems most want a law to live by, to appear (or feel) more righteous...

Do you know that the harlots in the pagan temples in Corinth shaved their heads?  Made it easy to identify them.
And by the way, hair is the covering Paul speaks of. (Not the hijab... unless maybe you have a shaved head, and don't care to be mistaken for a harlot.) 

No, and I also didn't know that all the hair bands in the 90's were "disgraceful" naturally per I Cor 11:15.  Didn't seem that way to me at the time - all the girls wanted to hang out with them.

I also know the Way jargon interpolation of that section of scripture how "covering" really means you are obedient and have the permission of your husband.  But the husband only has to ask the Lord, that is unless he is in the "household" where he has to tell Rosalie if he's going off grounds to buy flowers for his wife.  Many women I conversed with in the Way felt that to be demeaning, and certainly the male leaders used it to make their spouses walk 10 feet behind them.

And mind you now, God is breathing all this stuff.  Right?

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11 minutes ago, chockfull said:

No, and I also didn't know that all the hair bands in the 90's were "disgraceful" naturally per I Cor 11:15.  Didn't seem that way to me at the time - all the girls wanted to hang out with them.

Disgraceful? Never heard of such ridiculousness.  (And btw, our girls wore 'em. ...loved'em, as a matter of fact.)

11 minutes ago, chockfull said:

I also know the Way jargon interpolation of that section of scripture how "covering" really means you are obedient and have the permission of your husband.

Well then, evidently they were full of chit. Sounds like a prime example of how to use the scripture deceitfully.

11 minutes ago, chockfull said:

And mind you now, God is breathing all this stuff.  Right?

Wrong. Not that crap. 

Edited by TLC
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12 minutes ago, TLC said:

Disgraceful? Never heard of such ridiculousness.  (And btw, our girls wore 'em.)

Well then, evidently they were full of chit. Sounds like a prime example of how to use the scripture deceitfully.

Wrong. Not that crap. 

14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering.

Clarifying here - so these scriptures in I Cor. 11:14, 15 are not the crap that is God-breathed.  There is other crap that is God-breathed in Corinthians but this crap isn't?

I think this kind of gets down to what we were discussing in "Thus Saith Paul" the title of the thread.  What part of Paul's crap is God breathed and what part is not.  Or all of it is God-breathed and God likes obedient women in hijabs.  And Pentecostal preachers with haircuts from a salad bowl.  (I remember listening to this Pentecostal preacher one time live in a tent and he was at 110 decibels going on about how someone found the Lord and cut their hair).

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1 minute ago, chockfull said:

14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering.

Clarifying here - so these scriptures in I Cor. 11:14, 15 are not the crap that is God-breathed.  There is other crap that is God-breathed in Corinthians but this crap isn't?

I think this kind of gets down to what we were discussing in "Thus Saith Paul" the title of the thread.

Hey, you were referring to "Way jargon" and how they interpret those verses, so the crap I spoke of should be plenty obvious enough, and it doesn't need for any more clarification from me. 

If you have an issue understanding a couple of verses because of some BS that was taught in twi, and are going to throw out or otherwise use that to denigrate the Pauline epistles as a result, well... that's some serious damage that twi has put in your head. 

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Just now, TLC said:

Hey, you were referring to "Way jargon" and how they interpret those verses, so the crap I spoke of should be plenty obvious enough, and it doesn't need for any more clarification from me. 

If you have an issue understanding a couple of verses because of some BS that was taught in twi, and are going to throw out or otherwise use that to denigrate the Pauline epistles as a result, well... that's some serious damage that twi has put in your head. 

Actually I was getting at what your views are on the hair thing referred to in I Cor 11:14, 15.  But instead of answering it seems you are passing on that, instead saying it should be plenty obvious enough.

Next you are pushing it back on me saying I have an issue understanding verses because the Way taught false doctrine?

But you don't?

How about instead of the ad hominem attack,  you just answer the question about how you fit in Paul's writings on hair length with the God breathed topic.

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14 hours ago, WordWolf said:

"However... I have read and given some thought (again, some number of years ago) to what others have said on this matter.  As a matter of fact, I think most of it (if not all) falls under a category called "open theism" (which appears to be quite alive and well among some number of bible scholars.)  So, I have serious doubts that Geer was "original" with the concept, and if (as you've alluded to previously) he had ulterior reasons to use it to endorse or promote something else... well, he may have either taught it wrong or not understood it well enough. "

He wasn't original, and I certainly knew that at the time. The book "the Trivialization of God" was published around that time, a book addressing "Open Theism" (I was familiar with the term, and with the existence of the book.)  In fact, "Christianity Today" addressed this subject around that time also-which is how I heard about this stuff pre-internet.

"Otherwise, I  suspect a couple of teenagers would not have had as easy a time with the rebuttal of it as you say they did."

I assure you, we had an easy time of it.  He spent 3 different tapes laying out his position, and we successfully refuted each tape point by point, as well as the entire premise.   Perhaps it might have gone differently with someone else presenting "Open Theism",  but I'm skeptical it would have gone DRASTICALLY different. We refuted the premise in addition to every point he made, attempting to make his case.  But that's an exercise in imagination, at this point.

I resent the characterization of our work as "easy." It was exhausting.

That said, on its own terms, Geer's thesis was preposterous. On its own terms.

On philosophical terms -- that's another matter entirely.

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Can we all agree that this topic, however it started, has become almost entirely doctrinal since TLC's act of necromancy? I mean, you can almost make the case it belongs in the European forum, but About the Way? not seeing it.

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1 hour ago, TLC said:

It only started there, because of the (strange, and unexpected) linking of the "overthrow" to Genesis 3:15.  Strange and unexpected, as I don't recall ever hearing anything like that from vpw or twi.

Yeah, I got that.  No problem.  I simply had more interest in the concept itself.

So, if you still have your refutation of his position, I would be interested in reading it (to see how directly it might - or might not - address the general concept.)

I don't.

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35 minutes ago, Raf said:

Can we all agree that this topic, however it started, has become almost entirely doctrinal since TLC's act of necromancy? I mean, you can almost make the case it belongs in the European forum, but About the Way? not seeing it.

Yes doctrinal at this point.

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38 minutes ago, chockfull said:

Actually I was getting at what your views are on the hair thing referred to in I Cor 11:14, 15.  But instead of answering it seems you are passing on that, instead saying it should be plenty obvious enough.

I did answer it, in nearly as direct a way as you asked.  What was far more obvious was (your) bringing twi's interpretation of it into the picture (which I subsequently called "crap.")  

48 minutes ago, chockfull said:

Next you are pushing it back on me saying I have an issue understanding verses because the Way taught false doctrine?

That bothers you?  Trust me, I've had more than my share of trouble understanding certain verses because of what twi taught.
What did you expect, or would have liked me to say?

53 minutes ago, chockfull said:

But you don't?

Not so much on those particular verses.  Does that mean I have a full or complete understanding of them?  No, I never said or claimed that, nor will I.  And yeah, I could be wrong... but I think I understand them well enough that they don't jump off the page and scream at me, "Something's wrong here." 

58 minutes ago, chockfull said:

How about instead of the ad hominem attack, 

It was nothing of the sort, and I'm sorry you feel that way.  Maybe it's a generational thing (as in, I don't think peers in my generation would have ever taken it as such.)  But, maybe it's me, and my thinking is so different than most here, I ought to just quit.

1 hour ago, chockfull said:

...just answer the question about how you fit in Paul's writings on hair length with the God breathed topic.

We don't have (at least, not in this country - that I've ever heard of) open practices where the worship involved sex with the temple harlots that had shaved heads.  So, if you or anyone else wants to rip that verse of context and the culture of its day and time to make some dumbass law out of it, so what?  Think that changes the truth of why it was written and what it means?

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43 minutes ago, Raf said:

Can we all agree that this topic, however it started, has become almost entirely doctrinal since TLC's act of necromancy? I mean, you can almost make the case it belongs in the European forum, but About the Way? not seeing it.

Makes no diff to me.  (But I blame waysider for posting the link that brought me here... lol.) 

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1 minute ago, TLC said:

We don't have (at least, not in this country - that I've ever heard of) open practices where the worship involved sex with the temple harlots that had shaved heads.  So, if you or anyone else wants to rip that verse of context and the culture of its day and time to make some dumbass law out of it, so what?  Think that changes the truth of why it was written and what it means?

So that part was only to the twig that was having sex with shaved head temple harlots while worshipping?

Cool story bro.

Why write it with the intention to be passed around all the other churches then?

 

 

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1 minute ago, chockfull said:

So that part was only to the twig that was having sex with shaved head temple harlots while worshipping?

Cool story bro.

Why write it with the intention to be passed around all the other churches then?

'Cause it wasn't just in Corinth, and I never said it was or wasn't happening in their fellowships.  You injected that.  I spoke of it being "in the culture" of that day and time.

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1 minute ago, TLC said:

'Cause it wasn't just in Corinth, and I never said it was or wasn't happening in their fellowships.  You injected that.  I spoke of it being "in the culture" of that day and time.

Well stop me from filling in the blanks and tell me why it is you think God wants us Christians in modern times (as I believe the intent of the letters was to reach us also) to be aware that shaved head temple harlots aren't naturally attractive so grow your hair out?  And men don't be a cue ball?  

 

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13 minutes ago, chockfull said:

Well stop me from filling in the blanks and tell me why it is you think God wants us Christians in modern times (as I believe the intent of the letters was to reach us also) to be aware that shaved head temple harlots aren't naturally attractive so grow your hair out?  And men don't be a cue ball?  

 

Why is this issue so important to you, or why does it bother you so much, chockfull?  I don't get it.  Why try to make it mean something more than it does? 

I think we have it really easy in many respects compared to what Paul evidently had to contend with in his day and time.  On one hand were the religious zealots of Judaic law (more than a few of them stemming directly out of the church in Jerusalem, led by James.) On the other hand were pagan idolaters that were, in so many words, the extreme opposite.  Just imagine how impossible it must have seemed to bring either out of the muck and mire of "the senses world" that they were bred into.  In so many words, it required change.  And my, oh my... how people in general do hate change.

Fast forward to our world today, and what is (or isn't) required for us to fit into the culture around us.  Very little, if anything, really.  At least, not in the USA.  You can pretty much do what you want, go where you want, think what you want, say what you want, whenever you want.  The culture today is so diverse, what common molds or casings for it stand out as binding us or holding us back from what God might desire for us?

Seems I see what is written here (and certain things written elsewhere) as being meant to free believers from certain cultural practices, norms or ensnarement's, some number of which simply don't exist in our culture today, and direct their (non-spiritual) thinking more towards Christ. 

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1 minute ago, TLC said:

Why is this issue so important to you, or why does it bother you so much, chockfull?  I don't get it.  Why try to make it mean something more than it does? 

I think we have it really easy in many respects compared to what Paul evidently had to contend with in his day and time.  On one hand were the religious zealots of Judaic law (more than a few of them stemming directly out of the church in Jerusalem, led by James.) On the other hand were pagan idolaters that were, in so many words, the extreme opposite.  Just imagine how impossible it must have seemed to bring either out of the muck and mire of "the senses world" that they were bred into.  In so many words, it required change.  And my, oh my... how people in general do hate change.

Fast forward to our world today, and what is (or isn't) required for us to fit into the culture around us.  Very little, if anything, really.  At least, not in the USA.  You can pretty much do what you want, go where you want, think what you want, say what you want, whenever you want.  The culture today is so diverse, what common molds or casings for it stand out as binding us or holding us back from what God might desire for us?

Seems I see what is written here (and certain things written elsewhere) as being meant to free believers from certain cultural practices, norms or ensnarement's, some number of which simply don't exist in our culture today, and direct their (non-spiritual) thinking more towards Christ. 

it is a seeming dichotomy - language of freedom, but there language of control across an extreme personal boundary like grooming choices.

Paul in one letter made a distinction between speaking by permission or by command.  Separating them out would be futile verse by verse.   However to me I find that as sufficient evidence that Paul says of himself that sometimes in his writings it's Paul, and other times he feels it is God inspiring him to write things. 

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Paul was a religious zealot of the time, a Pharisee of the Pharisees.  He was clearly well educated and well respected, trusted by the important people of the time, given free rein to carry out his zealotry and haul converts (heretics) off to prison.  Yet he was tutored also by Gamaliel, who we’ve seen from other records took things carefully and slowly, and in perhaps a more considered manner.

Paul goes off hauling folk off to prison.   He meets a form of zealotry and passive resistance that astounds him: the martyr Stephen, and others in the towns he rampages.  He knows that what he knows – in his head – hasn’t quite reached his heart.  But he sees these people have something in their hearts.  He’s suspicious, at first; doesn’t believe it’s real, but knows they have a passion that exceeds his own.  (They can be a bit scary, that sort of people; yet they have something that grabs one’s attention.)

After his conversion experience and with his welcome and introduction by Barnabas (how astounding that must have been!), Paul wants to know how he got it wrong.  He re-examines everything he knows (and it’s a lot).  (Just like we have to re-examine everything we learned from TWI in particular, and perhaps from other churches too.)  He finally begins to get the big picture.  Those of us who still profess to be Christians know those light-bulb moments when something suddenly comes into focus, or when such-and-such a verse appears in our Bible and it’s as though we’d never ever seen that verse before.  I’m suspecting Paul had a lot of those moments. 

I don’t think Paul was a con-artist, any more than we escapees from TWI are con artists.  If anything, we who have re-examined our beliefs and our biased studies are more passionate for what we now understand than we ever were before.   Paul started from a high level of knowledge so he could examine a lot of detailed passages and draw threads together in a way that most of us cannot.  Finally, finally, he gets God’s big picture, and the more he studies, ponders, preaches, the more he learns.   The more he sees others apply it and live it (and it works!) the more he understands.

I wonder if some of those “but I speak by permission” and “in my judgment” sections are things that he’d considered, but hadn’t at that point found any specific Torah or other scroll/scripture to support (and also nothing to negate).  He realised “externals” didn’t matter (hair length, modes of dress, religious observances and rituals, etc) but that “internals” manifesting as actions, really did matter. 

There is so much more freedom in Paul’s epistles than he’s usually given credit for.  He himself had been “under law” for so long – he knew what that was like – and he knew it wasn’t the will of God that men should be oppressed by legalism.  He knew the many OT proverbs and sayings about guarding one’s heart, probably knew the oral forms of the gospels – what we know as Mt 15:1-28 for example.

I don’t think a single one of us here could do anything like Paul did (not even the late Steve Lortz, whose contributions I always found interesting and usually enlightening).  Paul, a con man?  If it were not for Paul, we’d still be worshiping nature, Diana, Dagon, the local emperor, or other false gods.

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10 hours ago, Raf said:

Can we all agree that this topic, however it started, has become almost entirely doctrinal since TLC's act of necromancy? I mean, you can almost make the case it belongs in the European forum, but About the Way? not seeing it.

I agree.

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10 hours ago, Raf said:

I resent the characterization of our work as "easy." It was exhausting.

That said, on its own terms, Geer's thesis was preposterous. On its own terms.

On philosophical terms -- that's another matter entirely.

From an emotional perspective, it was a lot more difficult than from any other.   We were able to get it all done using resources found in the twi bookstore, using skills any wayfer could have displayed.   Digging into "the word in the stars" didn't have to go any further than "JC-OPS",and "the Witness of the Stars",  and finding verses that refuted each claim as he made them was done with a simple Concordance. 

On its own terms, it should have been plainly obvious it was too flawed to hold.  "...had God foreknown- or forced or tracked or whatever you'd like to put as the word there...."  Honestly, that sentence alone should have been a tremendous embarrassment, and that's not even the whole sentence.  We were even able to quote 8ruce M@h0ne to refute him- and BM probably was going around agreeing with him at the time.  EMOTIONALLY, it was a heavy burden, and I readily acknowledge that.

 

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I think if one were to listen to Wayne Clapps post twi expose` on "Is hell a place of eternal torment" and his handling of the greek words regarding eternal, age long, cosmos and aeon it certainly throws 'new light' on current thinking. 

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16 hours ago, TLC said:

Hey, you were referring to "Way jargon" and how they interpret those verses, so the crap I spoke of should be plenty obvious enough, and it doesn't need for any more clarification from me. 

.

Edited by Rocky
Nevermind
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18 hours ago, chockfull said:

Paul in one letter made a distinction between speaking by permission or by command.  Separating them out would be futile verse by verse.   However to me I find that as sufficient evidence that Paul says of himself that sometimes in his writings it's Paul, and other times he feels it is God inspiring him to write things. 

It appears there is something in the semantics, and the difference between how we see or use certain vocabulary that we don't seem to agree on.  If there is a distinction that can be made between speaking by permission or by command, I would be more inclined to take that to mean speaking by inspiration or speaking by revelation. 

If you were to tell me that you wrote a book, I would probably hear that and think... okay, so you wrote a book.  But, if you were to say that you were inspired to write a book, my first thought is probably going to be....okay, what inspired you to write it?  Maybe it's that association in my own head between "inspired" and "in spirit action" that I'm too hung up on, but I suppose that a great many things are said and done and accomplished by "inspiration."  In a certain sense, one might even say (or claim) that everything that is said or done is the result of inspiration.  However, that seems to significantly lessen the worth even having or ever using it in our vocabulary.  And for the record, I just don't think it is very common to equate someone being "inspired" to say or write something with them being "commanded" to do so.  But then, perhaps the "not by commandment" spoken of by Paul relates more to the message itself rather than the messenger. 

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