I think mainly- loy wasn't that smart. Maybe he was just an ordinary thug in tights with an inferiority complex..
It is known that he was jealous of his predecessor.. at one point forbad the use of his name.. I think he knew nobody would give him that kind of allegiance the vicster somehow conned out of people..
Well I was involved with The Way International when Weirwille was alive. Martindale had not taken over yet... but he was being manuevered into place and was begining to dictate ministry doctrine. He was a very different personality from Weirwille.
And was taking over a completely different age group of people.
First of all you have to realize that Weirwille was an Alcoholic, The kind of Alcoholic that is very charismatic. (I find that many alcoholics are, I do not understand why but people love them and will follow them, I have seen it at work and in other situations in my life)
HE cultivated a Fatherly vibe,and aimed his ministry directly at the 19 to 23 year old set. Kept rules and regualtions to a minimum recognizing perhaps that young adults were not going to get on board if there was a ton of you can and can not do rules. And I think as he gained more followers and the snow ball effect took hold, yes he did throw stuff out there to see how much people would follow him.
Also from the very begining he did not tach anything as a suggeestion.
They weren't taught as anything other than how you ought to be living your life if you wanted to walk with God.
Then there was Martindale who really was not charasmatic at all .. was a control freak and demanded complete loyalty.
As he began to take over the ministry he began to throw out more and more rules and he also began to attack people. whole sale. The Gays in particular. Under Weirwille there was a kind of tolerance.. an acceptance but not a condoning.. Hard to describe you had to be there.
I am sure weirwill attacked people too, but not to the vicious degree of Martindale.
You had to be there at the cusp of the change over to see it I think.
Also Remember Martindale was taking over a group of people who the majority of were now moving into true adulthood. They were now in their late 20's and things that seemed reasonable before when they were younger were not so reasonable now.
Also many of the Corps from the minute they heard it was going to be Martindale were not happy.
Many of them did not like him. They had gone through Corps training with him or had been through the program under him.. They did understand who he wasand what he was like. The night Weirwill announced him as the succesor officially to the Corps, you should have heard the complaining.Many people were very unhappy about it.
I also think that Martindale really began to push peoples limits gradually building up steam as he went along. and the more he pushed, the more unhappy people became and wanted to leave.. and the more they left the more insecure Martindale felt and pushed harder.
The last place we lived when we were in, the young BL barely remembered VPW, just some "old guy" who was seen from time to time. His main experience and his WC training were all under LCM, and he absolutely worshipped the man! His wife was a former "Personal Assistant to the President of The Way," he mimicked the speech patterns, postures, and attitudes of LCM, and they both gave a vague impression of being close personal friends of the LCMs, though I doubt they really were.
I think this was in many ways attributable to his age (under 30)and what seemed to me personally to be somewhat of a predisposition to the same kind of cruelty and mind games and desire for power over others. He also lied and twisted facts with ease, but this may have just been SOP for leadership at that point in time.
The leadership in the area that was of our age group, especially WC grads, leaped passionately upon the bandwagon of the "present truth," mostly it seemed to me out of fear of being dropped from the WC/TWI, which of course meant they leaped upon the rest of us peons like wolves on the flock.
I do wonder if I ever ran across any of them, if they ever recognized their mistake in following this lunatic.
Much has been talked about that people were led, coerced, and manipulated in TWI. Apparently, all it ever took was planting the idea that "suggestion" actually meant "commandment" and then suggesting something. How utterly genius. No leading. No coercion. No manipulation past planting the original idea.
It had to be amazing to sit back and watch it unfold. Imagine being able to suggest something and people treating it like it was a commandment. How powerful is that? Do you think he knowingly kept pushing the suggestions to new heights to test his power and influence?
And why didn't it work with LCM? After all, he was the hand-picked successor.
Many reasons, for sure.....
1) Wierwille was "untouchable".......and yet, many (by 1981) were starting to see behind the curtain. As I posted several times, some of the 3rd, 4th, and 5th corps were distancing themselves from twi. Pilots and bodyguards were leaving wierwille's side.
2) 10 years of exposure.......10 years of obedience.......10 more years towards adulthood
3) The region coordinators (and others) saw an opportunity to be top dog as wierwille stepped down. In my opinion, many were feigning allegiance......yet, sizing up the point of opportunity to break away.
4) In hindsight, I don't think there was as much "like-mindedness" as one might have thought.
5) Some were of Apollo, some of Geer, some of Martindale, some of Lynn.....
6) Even though wierwille praised Peter W@de in pfal.......W@de moved on.
Much has been talked about that people were led, coerced, and manipulated in TWI. Apparently, all it ever took was planting the idea that "suggestion" actually meant "commandment" and then suggesting something. How utterly genius. No leading. No coercion. No manipulation past planting the original idea.
It had to be amazing to sit back and watch it unfold. Imagine being able to suggest something and people treating it like it was a commandment. How powerful is that? Do you think he knowingly kept pushing the suggestions to new heights to test his power and influence?
And why didn't it work with LCM? After all, he was the hand-picked successor.
You watch some of the young people, teens/20s, do this, I swear you can see them lick their lips. lcm just enjoyed it too openly, would be my guess.
It was little bit more than simply planting the idea that a suggestion was equivalent to a command. Think of the "frog in the frying pan" illustration. Control progressed gradually.
The reason that Martindale failed was that Wierwille was good at shifting gears into his "tender moments"..."you're my keeds" and all that baloney...he sucked people in. Martindale couldn't pull it off...he was one dimensional and that was being mean spirited and a big mouth.
the old man kept things apart from himself pretty good, too, to the general audiences, but martindale was too easy to see through and he was too in your face with things. the old man played the dad/grandpa part and let the limb leaders and branch leaders and twig leaders and corps people come off as the the thugs and henchmen, but martindale wanted the power and the glory for himself so much that he couldn't see the old man's "wisdom" in letting the subordinates do the "heavy" stuff. and when the old man did dish out heavy stuff in front of the general audiences he did it like a dad/grandpa would do it, with that old "this is going to hurt me more than it's going to hurt you" blah blah blah stuff and it endeared him to people and made people feel like they had somehow disappointed him and they really deserved being ripped a new one for being such a disappointment to dear old dad/grandpa, but martindale finger-pointed and blamed and glorified himself which did nothing to endear him to people and did everything to show him for being whack. the old man played that "father in the word" stuff like a pro, and martindale couldn't pull it off. and i think like others here have said that it was also because people had grown up a little bit, but also because martindale was too close in age to the people he was trying to push around and too many of those people saw him when he was a nothing and knew he was no "father in the word". i know that martindale came off to us kids like a mean and dirty uncle to steer clear from, but the old man was like a senile grandpa that you respected because he was old and you laughed at because he was senile and you made fun of all the adults because he could make them jump around just for saying jump, but other than that harmless and to be ignored. (but that was then and now i know better.)
the old man kept things apart from himself pretty good, too, to the general audiences, but martindale was too easy to see through and he was too in your face with things. the old man played the dad/grandpa part and let the limb leaders and branch leaders and twig leaders and corps people come off as the the thugs and henchmen, but martindale wanted the power and the glory for himself so much that he couldn't see the old man's "wisdom" in letting the subordinates do the "heavy" stuff. and when the old man did dish out heavy stuff in front of the general audiences he did it like a dad/grandpa would do it, with that old "this is going to hurt me more than it's going to hurt you" blah blah blah stuff and it endeared him to people and made people feel like they had somehow disappointed him and they really deserved being ripped a new one for being such a disappointment to dear old dad/grandpa, but martindale finger-pointed and blamed and glorified himself which did nothing to endear him to people and did everything to show him for being whack. the old man played that "father in the word" stuff like a pro, and martindale couldn't pull it off. and i think like others here have said that it was also because people had grown up a little bit, but also because martindale was too close in age to the people he was trying to push around and too many of those people saw him when he was a nothing and knew he was no "father in the word". i know that martindale came off to us kids like a mean and dirty uncle to steer clear from, but the old man was like a senile grandpa that you respected because he was old and you laughed at because he was senile and you made fun of all the adults because he could make them jump around just for saying jump, but other than that harmless and to be ignored. (but that was then and now i know better.)
Well, except. . . . My Grandpa never grabbed my backside or commented on the endowment of my front side. Something was altered in my perception of the obvious. . . . Grandpa was a pig. How I missed what was painfully obvious. . . . is why I come here. Something happened to me and it was subtle and persuasive. I ignored my own conscience. Not going to happen again.
If Grandpa tried to cop a feel today. . . . I would smack him right across the face.
It was little bit more than simply planting the idea that a suggestion was equivalent to a command. Think of the "frog in the frying pan" illustration. Control progressed gradually.
I think it's more like a young elephant on a chain. IMO.
They hit you with a spoon when you're little, you hesitate to react when you're bigger.
Much has been talked about that people were led, coerced, and manipulated in TWI. Apparently, all it ever took was planting the idea that "suggestion" actually meant "commandment" and then suggesting something. How utterly genius. No leading. No coercion. No manipulation past planting the original idea.
It had to be amazing to sit back and watch it unfold. Imagine being able to suggest something and people treating it like it was a commandment. How powerful is that? Do you think he knowingly kept pushing the suggestions to new heights to test his power and influence?
And why didn't it work with LCM? After all, he was the hand-picked successor.
I think mainly- loy wasn't that smart. Maybe he was just an ordinary thug in tights with an inferiority complex..
It is known that he was jealous of his predecessor.. at one point forbad the use of his name.. I think he knew nobody would give him that kind of allegiance the vicster somehow conned out of people..
Well I was involved with The Way International when Weirwille was alive. Martindale had not taken over yet... but he was being manuevered into place and was begining to dictate ministry doctrine. He was a very different personality from Weirwille.
And was taking over a completely different age group of people.
First of all you have to realize that Weirwille was an Alcoholic, The kind of Alcoholic that is very charismatic. (I find that many alcoholics are, I do not understand why but people love them and will follow them, I have seen it at work and in other situations in my life)
HE cultivated a Fatherly vibe,and aimed his ministry directly at the 19 to 23 year old set. Kept rules and regualtions to a minimum recognizing perhaps that young adults were not going to get on board if there was a ton of you can and can not do rules. And I think as he gained more followers and the snow ball effect took hold, yes he did throw stuff out there to see how much people would follow him.
Also from the very begining he did not tach anything as a suggeestion.
They weren't taught as anything other than how you ought to be living your life if you wanted to walk with God.
Then there was Martindale who really was not charasmatic at all .. was a control freak and demanded complete loyalty.
As he began to take over the ministry he began to throw out more and more rules and he also began to attack people. whole sale. The Gays in particular. Under Weirwille there was a kind of tolerance.. an acceptance but not a condoning.. Hard to describe you had to be there.
I am sure weirwill attacked people too, but not to the vicious degree of Martindale.
You had to be there at the cusp of the change over to see it I think.
Also Remember Martindale was taking over a group of people who the majority of were now moving into true adulthood. They were now in their late 20's and things that seemed reasonable before when they were younger were not so reasonable now.
Also many of the Corps from the minute they heard it was going to be Martindale were not happy.
Many of them did not like him. They had gone through Corps training with him or had been through the program under him.. They did understand who he wasand what he was like. The night Weirwill announced him as the succesor officially to the Corps, you should have heard the complaining.Many people were very unhappy about it.
I also think that Martindale really began to push peoples limits gradually building up steam as he went along. and the more he pushed, the more unhappy people became and wanted to leave.. and the more they left the more insecure Martindale felt and pushed harder.
Culminating in that first big exodus.
Many reasons, for sure.....
1) Wierwille was "untouchable".......and yet, many (by 1981) were starting to see behind the curtain. As I posted several times, some of the 3rd, 4th, and 5th corps were distancing themselves from twi. Pilots and bodyguards were leaving wierwille's side.
2) 10 years of exposure.......10 years of obedience.......10 more years towards adulthood
3) The region coordinators (and others) saw an opportunity to be top dog as wierwille stepped down. In my opinion, many were feigning allegiance......yet, sizing up the point of opportunity to break away.
4) In hindsight, I don't think there was as much "like-mindedness" as one might have thought.
5) Some were of Apollo, some of Geer, some of Martindale, some of Lynn.....
6) Even though wierwille praised Peter W@de in pfal.......W@de moved on.
Ha ha ha
The reason that Martindale failed was that Wierwille was good at shifting gears into his "tender moments"..."you're my keeds" and all that baloney...he sucked people in. Martindale couldn't pull it off...he was one dimensional and that was being mean spirited and a big mouth.
the old man kept things apart from himself pretty good, too, to the general audiences, but martindale was too easy to see through and he was too in your face with things. the old man played the dad/grandpa part and let the limb leaders and branch leaders and twig leaders and corps people come off as the the thugs and henchmen, but martindale wanted the power and the glory for himself so much that he couldn't see the old man's "wisdom" in letting the subordinates do the "heavy" stuff. and when the old man did dish out heavy stuff in front of the general audiences he did it like a dad/grandpa would do it, with that old "this is going to hurt me more than it's going to hurt you" blah blah blah stuff and it endeared him to people and made people feel like they had somehow disappointed him and they really deserved being ripped a new one for being such a disappointment to dear old dad/grandpa, but martindale finger-pointed and blamed and glorified himself which did nothing to endear him to people and did everything to show him for being whack. the old man played that "father in the word" stuff like a pro, and martindale couldn't pull it off. and i think like others here have said that it was also because people had grown up a little bit, but also because martindale was too close in age to the people he was trying to push around and too many of those people saw him when he was a nothing and knew he was no "father in the word". i know that martindale came off to us kids like a mean and dirty uncle to steer clear from, but the old man was like a senile grandpa that you respected because he was old and you laughed at because he was senile and you made fun of all the adults because he could make them jump around just for saying jump, but other than that harmless and to be ignored. (but that was then and now i know better.)
I'll add another consideration to the rest.
Looking at the entire history of what victor paul wierwille did and said, and when he
did and said it, it seems obvious that he built his entire career on the talents of
other people, and the gaps in time reflect the times he was limited in what he could
find and claim credit for.
From the beginning, vpw knew he was a fake. He constructed a fictional character he
played, and cobbled it all together from the work of others- the manner of speaking,
the materials, even the personal anecdotes of life experiences, at times.
All of that was so that victor paul wierwille could give out that himself was some
great one, so that they would all give him heed, from the least to the greatest,
saying "This man is the great power of God."
It was so successful that a few people, having displeased vpw or his successor
or having been labeled a failure by them, went off and committed suicide.
He convinced some women-some married, some single- that it was perfectly fine with God
to help a man commit adultery by fornicating with him.
When craig martindale came along, he was completely snowed about all of that.
vpw convinced lcm that this was all a legitimate movement of God, so lcm carried himself
accordingly. vpw knew that he would have to "play" his audience- he knew there were
times to hide his true intentions and answers to questions, he knew that there were
times to play the "benevolent father" and times he could secretly crush someone's
personality. lcm never stopped to think that he had to "play" his audience- he thought
everything he saw vpw do was approved of God- so he could copy him at will and God
would approve. So, the "do some things in secret" strategy wasn't a factor.
Add that to his lesser intelligence, lesser skill in strategy and falsehood,
add his big ego, add his jock mentality,
and it's clear lcm was possibly the worst choice for a successor vpw could possibly
have chosen!
Then again, all he had to do was fit vpw's own criteria- when asked once just after
selecting lcm, vpw said it was because lcm had always obeyed him without question
no matter what. That was "good enough" for vpw, but over time, it was painfully
obvious it wasn't "good enough" for everyone else.
Wierwille said that for a general to his troops a suggestion was enough. As a former troop I can say that is untrue in every sense. Any member of the armed forces wants their superiors to be on the record when they give orders.
Wierwille said that for a general to his troops a suggestion was enough. As a former troop I can say that is untrue in every sense. Any member of the armed forces wants their superiors to be on the record when they give orders.
Wierwille was just being slippery and slimey!
What did we know?
We were just a bunch of "kids" who took his word for it.
Well, except. . . . My Grandpa never grabbed my backside or commented on the endowment of my front side. Something was altered in my perception of the obvious. . . . Grandpa was a pig. How I missed what was painfully obvious. . . . is why I come here. Something happened to me and it was subtle and persuasive. I ignored my own conscience. Not going to happen again.
If Grandpa tried to cop a feel today. . . . I would smack him right across the face.
hi
my grandpa did
unfortunately, i never slapped the ****** out of wierwille
but i did finally do it to my grandpa but i was 34 years old -- i know i'm .....
i guess once the major pig died, i got up some courage lol
unfortunately, i never slapped the ****** out of wierwille
but i did finally do it to my grandpa but i was 34 years old -- i know i'm .....
i guess once the major pig died, i got up some courage lol
pitiful
************
i mean the godly pig
I don't think it makes you pitiful at all. Courage at 34 is still courage.
I don't think VP's behavior was pitiful either. It was disgusting, unforgivable, vile, and it was extremely manipulative. And since he knew it was wrong, but his own lust was more important to him than resisting temptation and yielding to the higher authority he claimed to know and love above all else. . . . I don't have any pity for him. None.
VP's actions are not to be pitied as unavoidable, they were not a product of some circumstance he could not control and no one with an honest bone in their body can say he didn't know better. He left the church because they told him it was wrong. They held him accountable.
Why do we really think he vaunted the scriptures above all else including Jesus Christ? Because being beholden to a book he could manipulate and use to justify his actions instead of a personal God who shows us right from wrong. . . . allowed him to indulge his lust with seeming impunity. . . no, actually with what he claimed was God's permission.
I have a theory, he spent all that time reordering truth because he was once held accountable by it. He was angry and bitter because he could not do as he wanted. He created a "truth" that would allow him to continue in lust with God's permission.
There is no such thing.
I personally don't believe he loved God, or respected the scriptures and Jesus Christ(the revelation of God) was so much a burden he had to file him in the waste basket. . . . or minimize Him to such an ineffectual pal that He was easy to dispose of. . . . . . nope. . . .VP didn't love God IMO. . . he loved himself, and he loved to sin.
I hope you guys don't mind if I contribute something here. I was only five or six when VPW died. My Dad however, lived through all that stuff - so I have a second hand story to pass along,... well, first -hand from him to me.
He told me that he knew it was "over" when that Tape "Love Letters" came out. On it there was some mention that the word was going to have spread across the World by some certain year. dad said that he and a friend of his said to one another, well,... that's it then. it's over. Now, he also mentioned that LCM was teaching about the rise and expansion stuff at Avanced Class '80? [This was before Rise & Expansion became a seperate Way Class] & before He wore "tights".
No growth, no life. If the word was over the world (and it was true that,... the Way was at it's Zenith then, expansion-wise), from there it was downhill. My Dad said the Way Ministry pretty much ended then. though it wouldn't become apparent for a while yet to many.
He had a friend, who had a sister, who was Corps,... that had been approached By VPW as a motorcoach delectible one night. Apparently she had told some tale to her parents - who promptly disbelieved her (that part dazzles me) anyways my dad's friend (and ex WOW brother) believed his sister, and so my dad did. If I remember right this was in 1979. the Girl's name was Anna. she and her husband were in one of the WC's and she sang songs too. So some of you can figure it all out maybe. So it was not long after these things that my dad pretty much quietly walked out of the Way Int. He was never able to go into the Corps himself because he joined the military and had me all around the same time. (it really IS all about me -yanno? [snicker]) <kiddin',...kiddin'....>
I remember my dad telling me - Well, if we'd moved the Word over the World, we'd done our job and it was OVER. Anything LCM did was going to be presiding over decline.
Honestly,... hearing some of this stuff makes me feel sympathy for anyone with a nail-gun at the door of a tent...
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Ham
I think mainly- loy wasn't that smart. Maybe he was just an ordinary thug in tights with an inferiority complex.. It is known that he was jealous of his predecessor.. at one point forbad the use of
100% Free
The whole "suggestion" thing was a way for a leader to control others yet not be accountable for "suggesting" it. If someone didn't follow a "suggestion" and something bad happened, it was because th
Ham
I think mainly- loy wasn't that smart. Maybe he was just an ordinary thug in tights with an inferiority complex..
It is known that he was jealous of his predecessor.. at one point forbad the use of his name.. I think he knew nobody would give him that kind of allegiance the vicster somehow conned out of people..
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leafytwiglet
Well I was involved with The Way International when Weirwille was alive. Martindale had not taken over yet... but he was being manuevered into place and was begining to dictate ministry doctrine. He was a very different personality from Weirwille.
And was taking over a completely different age group of people.
First of all you have to realize that Weirwille was an Alcoholic, The kind of Alcoholic that is very charismatic. (I find that many alcoholics are, I do not understand why but people love them and will follow them, I have seen it at work and in other situations in my life)
HE cultivated a Fatherly vibe,and aimed his ministry directly at the 19 to 23 year old set. Kept rules and regualtions to a minimum recognizing perhaps that young adults were not going to get on board if there was a ton of you can and can not do rules. And I think as he gained more followers and the snow ball effect took hold, yes he did throw stuff out there to see how much people would follow him.
Also from the very begining he did not tach anything as a suggeestion.
They weren't taught as anything other than how you ought to be living your life if you wanted to walk with God.
Then there was Martindale who really was not charasmatic at all .. was a control freak and demanded complete loyalty.
As he began to take over the ministry he began to throw out more and more rules and he also began to attack people. whole sale. The Gays in particular. Under Weirwille there was a kind of tolerance.. an acceptance but not a condoning.. Hard to describe you had to be there.
I am sure weirwill attacked people too, but not to the vicious degree of Martindale.
You had to be there at the cusp of the change over to see it I think.
Also Remember Martindale was taking over a group of people who the majority of were now moving into true adulthood. They were now in their late 20's and things that seemed reasonable before when they were younger were not so reasonable now.
Also many of the Corps from the minute they heard it was going to be Martindale were not happy.
Many of them did not like him. They had gone through Corps training with him or had been through the program under him.. They did understand who he wasand what he was like. The night Weirwill announced him as the succesor officially to the Corps, you should have heard the complaining.Many people were very unhappy about it.
I also think that Martindale really began to push peoples limits gradually building up steam as he went along. and the more he pushed, the more unhappy people became and wanted to leave.. and the more they left the more insecure Martindale felt and pushed harder.
Culminating in that first big exodus.
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Watered Garden
The last place we lived when we were in, the young BL barely remembered VPW, just some "old guy" who was seen from time to time. His main experience and his WC training were all under LCM, and he absolutely worshipped the man! His wife was a former "Personal Assistant to the President of The Way," he mimicked the speech patterns, postures, and attitudes of LCM, and they both gave a vague impression of being close personal friends of the LCMs, though I doubt they really were.
I think this was in many ways attributable to his age (under 30)and what seemed to me personally to be somewhat of a predisposition to the same kind of cruelty and mind games and desire for power over others. He also lied and twisted facts with ease, but this may have just been SOP for leadership at that point in time.
The leadership in the area that was of our age group, especially WC grads, leaped passionately upon the bandwagon of the "present truth," mostly it seemed to me out of fear of being dropped from the WC/TWI, which of course meant they leaped upon the rest of us peons like wolves on the flock.
I do wonder if I ever ran across any of them, if they ever recognized their mistake in following this lunatic.
I doubt it, though.
wG
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skyrider
Many reasons, for sure.....
1) Wierwille was "untouchable".......and yet, many (by 1981) were starting to see behind the curtain. As I posted several times, some of the 3rd, 4th, and 5th corps were distancing themselves from twi. Pilots and bodyguards were leaving wierwille's side.
2) 10 years of exposure.......10 years of obedience.......10 more years towards adulthood
3) The region coordinators (and others) saw an opportunity to be top dog as wierwille stepped down. In my opinion, many were feigning allegiance......yet, sizing up the point of opportunity to break away.
4) In hindsight, I don't think there was as much "like-mindedness" as one might have thought.
5) Some were of Apollo, some of Geer, some of Martindale, some of Lynn.....
6) Even though wierwille praised Peter W@de in pfal.......W@de moved on.
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Bolshevik
You watch some of the young people, teens/20s, do this, I swear you can see them lick their lips. lcm just enjoyed it too openly, would be my guess.
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Oakspear
It was little bit more than simply planting the idea that a suggestion was equivalent to a command. Think of the "frog in the frying pan" illustration. Control progressed gradually.
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Bolshevik
Now, when you can tell someone to do what they want to do, and they turn around and do what you want them to do, is that the epitome?
What's after that?
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geisha779
Home Depot.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Ha ha ha
The reason that Martindale failed was that Wierwille was good at shifting gears into his "tender moments"..."you're my keeds" and all that baloney...he sucked people in. Martindale couldn't pull it off...he was one dimensional and that was being mean spirited and a big mouth.
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brainfixed
the old man kept things apart from himself pretty good, too, to the general audiences, but martindale was too easy to see through and he was too in your face with things. the old man played the dad/grandpa part and let the limb leaders and branch leaders and twig leaders and corps people come off as the the thugs and henchmen, but martindale wanted the power and the glory for himself so much that he couldn't see the old man's "wisdom" in letting the subordinates do the "heavy" stuff. and when the old man did dish out heavy stuff in front of the general audiences he did it like a dad/grandpa would do it, with that old "this is going to hurt me more than it's going to hurt you" blah blah blah stuff and it endeared him to people and made people feel like they had somehow disappointed him and they really deserved being ripped a new one for being such a disappointment to dear old dad/grandpa, but martindale finger-pointed and blamed and glorified himself which did nothing to endear him to people and did everything to show him for being whack. the old man played that "father in the word" stuff like a pro, and martindale couldn't pull it off. and i think like others here have said that it was also because people had grown up a little bit, but also because martindale was too close in age to the people he was trying to push around and too many of those people saw him when he was a nothing and knew he was no "father in the word". i know that martindale came off to us kids like a mean and dirty uncle to steer clear from, but the old man was like a senile grandpa that you respected because he was old and you laughed at because he was senile and you made fun of all the adults because he could make them jump around just for saying jump, but other than that harmless and to be ignored. (but that was then and now i know better.)
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geisha779
Well, except. . . . My Grandpa never grabbed my backside or commented on the endowment of my front side. Something was altered in my perception of the obvious. . . . Grandpa was a pig. How I missed what was painfully obvious. . . . is why I come here. Something happened to me and it was subtle and persuasive. I ignored my own conscience. Not going to happen again.
If Grandpa tried to cop a feel today. . . . I would smack him right across the face.
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Steve Lortz
"The suggestion of a general is paramount to an order!"
That used to bug me no end. TANTAMOUNT! The word is TANTAMOUNT, not paramount!
Love,
Steve
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Bolshevik
I think it's more like a young elephant on a chain. IMO.
They hit you with a spoon when you're little, you hesitate to react when you're bigger.
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Bolshevik
maybe for lcm, a father's love is a father's love. but the others?
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WordWolf
I'll add another consideration to the rest.
Looking at the entire history of what victor paul wierwille did and said, and when he
did and said it, it seems obvious that he built his entire career on the talents of
other people, and the gaps in time reflect the times he was limited in what he could
find and claim credit for.
From the beginning, vpw knew he was a fake. He constructed a fictional character he
played, and cobbled it all together from the work of others- the manner of speaking,
the materials, even the personal anecdotes of life experiences, at times.
All of that was so that victor paul wierwille could give out that himself was some
great one, so that they would all give him heed, from the least to the greatest,
saying "This man is the great power of God."
It was so successful that a few people, having displeased vpw or his successor
or having been labeled a failure by them, went off and committed suicide.
He convinced some women-some married, some single- that it was perfectly fine with God
to help a man commit adultery by fornicating with him.
When craig martindale came along, he was completely snowed about all of that.
vpw convinced lcm that this was all a legitimate movement of God, so lcm carried himself
accordingly. vpw knew that he would have to "play" his audience- he knew there were
times to hide his true intentions and answers to questions, he knew that there were
times to play the "benevolent father" and times he could secretly crush someone's
personality. lcm never stopped to think that he had to "play" his audience- he thought
everything he saw vpw do was approved of God- so he could copy him at will and God
would approve. So, the "do some things in secret" strategy wasn't a factor.
Add that to his lesser intelligence, lesser skill in strategy and falsehood,
add his big ego, add his jock mentality,
and it's clear lcm was possibly the worst choice for a successor vpw could possibly
have chosen!
Then again, all he had to do was fit vpw's own criteria- when asked once just after
selecting lcm, vpw said it was because lcm had always obeyed him without question
no matter what. That was "good enough" for vpw, but over time, it was painfully
obvious it wasn't "good enough" for everyone else.
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Bolshevik
vpw rode a wave caused by events greater than himself, I suspect that wave had broke before lcm's ascent. Could anyone have been "successful"?
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JeffSjo
Wierwille said that for a general to his troops a suggestion was enough. As a former troop I can say that is untrue in every sense. Any member of the armed forces wants their superiors to be on the record when they give orders.
Wierwille was just being slippery and slimey!
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waysider
What did we know?
We were just a bunch of "kids" who took his word for it.
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Tzaia
[smirk] a few think they could have.
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excathedra
what an interesting opening post
i don't know. i think many thought craig was a "peer" and some thought they should have been the chosen one....
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excathedra
hi
my grandpa did
unfortunately, i never slapped the ****** out of wierwille
but i did finally do it to my grandpa but i was 34 years old -- i know i'm .....
i guess once the major pig died, i got up some courage lol
pitiful
************
i mean the godly pig
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geisha779
I don't think it makes you pitiful at all. Courage at 34 is still courage.
I don't think VP's behavior was pitiful either. It was disgusting, unforgivable, vile, and it was extremely manipulative. And since he knew it was wrong, but his own lust was more important to him than resisting temptation and yielding to the higher authority he claimed to know and love above all else. . . . I don't have any pity for him. None.
VP's actions are not to be pitied as unavoidable, they were not a product of some circumstance he could not control and no one with an honest bone in their body can say he didn't know better. He left the church because they told him it was wrong. They held him accountable.
Why do we really think he vaunted the scriptures above all else including Jesus Christ? Because being beholden to a book he could manipulate and use to justify his actions instead of a personal God who shows us right from wrong. . . . allowed him to indulge his lust with seeming impunity. . . no, actually with what he claimed was God's permission.
I have a theory, he spent all that time reordering truth because he was once held accountable by it. He was angry and bitter because he could not do as he wanted. He created a "truth" that would allow him to continue in lust with God's permission.
There is no such thing.
I personally don't believe he loved God, or respected the scriptures and Jesus Christ(the revelation of God) was so much a burden he had to file him in the waste basket. . . . or minimize Him to such an ineffectual pal that He was easy to dispose of. . . . . . nope. . . .VP didn't love God IMO. . . he loved himself, and he loved to sin.
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Gen-2
I hope you guys don't mind if I contribute something here. I was only five or six when VPW died. My Dad however, lived through all that stuff - so I have a second hand story to pass along,... well, first -hand from him to me.
He told me that he knew it was "over" when that Tape "Love Letters" came out. On it there was some mention that the word was going to have spread across the World by some certain year. dad said that he and a friend of his said to one another, well,... that's it then. it's over. Now, he also mentioned that LCM was teaching about the rise and expansion stuff at Avanced Class '80? [This was before Rise & Expansion became a seperate Way Class] & before He wore "tights".
No growth, no life. If the word was over the world (and it was true that,... the Way was at it's Zenith then, expansion-wise), from there it was downhill. My Dad said the Way Ministry pretty much ended then. though it wouldn't become apparent for a while yet to many.
He had a friend, who had a sister, who was Corps,... that had been approached By VPW as a motorcoach delectible one night. Apparently she had told some tale to her parents - who promptly disbelieved her (that part dazzles me) anyways my dad's friend (and ex WOW brother) believed his sister, and so my dad did. If I remember right this was in 1979. the Girl's name was Anna. she and her husband were in one of the WC's and she sang songs too. So some of you can figure it all out maybe. So it was not long after these things that my dad pretty much quietly walked out of the Way Int. He was never able to go into the Corps himself because he joined the military and had me all around the same time. (it really IS all about me -yanno? [snicker]) <kiddin',...kiddin'....>
I remember my dad telling me - Well, if we'd moved the Word over the World, we'd done our job and it was OVER. Anything LCM did was going to be presiding over decline.
Honestly,... hearing some of this stuff makes me feel sympathy for anyone with a nail-gun at the door of a tent...
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Bolshevik
que?
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