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 new video by John Juedes- What Victor Paul Wierwille's Power for Abundant Living class did Very Well

Victor Paul Wierwille's Power for Abundant Living class did one thing very well, even though it wasn't a stated purpose of the class, and participants didn't realize what they were hearing. It's my ninth video on TWI on YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2quaAr-n98

 

 

 

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Good job, John.

I realized (as many here at GSC have also) long ago that the PFLAP class was all about focusing the student's world view and biblical understanding on what Wierwille said any of it meant.

7 hours ago, johnj said:

 new video by John Juedes- What Victor Paul Wierwille's Power for Abundant Living class did Very Well

Victor Paul Wierwille's Power for Abundant Living class did one thing very well, even though it wasn't a stated purpose of the class, and participants didn't realize what they were hearing. It's my ninth video on TWI on YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2quaAr-n98

 

 

 

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  • 3 months later...

Well, if I'm going to comment, I need to sit through it. This video is nothing more than a guy thinking evil and going on a 12 minute rant about it. There's more. You can tell by listening to his vocal flow, that he's obsessed. He's run those thoughts through his mind rapid fire for decades. Martindale wasn't that bad when he talked about Jews and homos. Even VPs teaching 'the way of life and death' wasn't that out of control. The guy's a whack job.

Victor Paul Wierwille's Power for abundant living class did indeed do one thing very well.....it drew a line in the sand which clearly separated mainstream Christianity, which is STILL based on man made traditions not found in scripture...from biblical research, which is based on the firm belief that the words in the bible as originally given by God, are truth, God breathed, whatever you want to call it.

I've attended a few churches since leaving TWI. Those people are mostly Christians, not glassy eyed robots. They know a lot of the same stuff we do. But they still believe Jesus is God, that dead people aren't really dead, they don't understand incorruptible seed ( they think they can be saved one moment and unsaved the next), some of them think they might go to hell for playing outside on Sunday. THAT should be regarded as brainwashing!

People don't join cults because they're "brainwashed"...they join because they want more substance than they're ever going to get from their church. Not everybody feels that way, but, obviously, enough people do so there will always be small religions that spring up which bigotted mainstream ministers will be likely to label as "cults".

Take your best shot.

PS  Rev. Richard Thomas has fallen asleep. He had cancer for 2 years. He was 71. 

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1 hour ago, johniam said:

Well, if I'm going to comment, I need to sit through it. This video is nothing more than a guy thinking evil and going on a 12 minute rant about it. There's more. You can tell by listening to his vocal flow, that he's obsessed. He's run those thoughts through his mind rapid fire for decades. Martindale wasn't that bad when he talked about Jews and homos. Even VPs teaching 'the way of life and death' wasn't that out of control. The guy's a whack job.

Victor Paul Wierwille's Power for abundant living class did indeed do one thing very well.....it drew a line in the sand which clearly separated mainstream Christianity, which is STILL based on man made traditions not found in scripture...from biblical research, which is based on the firm belief that the words in the bible as originally given by God, are truth, God breathed, whatever you want to call it.

I've attended a few churches since leaving TWI. Those people are mostly Christians, not glassy eyed robots. They know a lot of the same stuff we do. But they still believe Jesus is God, that dead people aren't really dead, they don't understand incorruptible seed ( they think they can be saved one moment and unsaved the next), some of them think they might go to hell for playing outside on Sunday. THAT should be regarded as brainwashing!

People don't join cults because they're "brainwashed"...they join because they want more substance than they're ever going to get from their church. Not everybody feels that way, but, obviously, enough people do so there will always be small religions that spring up which bigotted mainstream ministers will be likely to label as "cults".

Take your best shot.

PS  Rev. Richard Thomas has fallen asleep. He had cancer for 2 years. He was 71. 

A guy thinking evil? That's certainly not objective, rational fact. That's your impression, your subjective reaction. 

Rather than take apart each of your irrational claims, I'll just leave this for you. From start to finish, Wierwille was a huckster, through and through. We bought the snake oil he was selling. You, Johniam, apparently are still buying. 

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9 hours ago, johniam said:

Victor Paul Wierwille's Power for abundant living class did indeed do one thing very well.....it drew a line in the sand which clearly separated mainstream Christianity, which is STILL based on man made traditions not found in scripture...from biblical research, which is based on the firm belief that the words in the bible as originally given by God, are truth, God breathed, whatever you want to call it.

 

Yeah – wierwille drew a line in the sand to distinguish himself and his “ministry” as the only viable option for “biblical truth” by plagiarizing the works of others and yet claiming it was by his own research ( stealing and lying - and on a grand scale - wierwille was a repeat offender - an unabashed plagiarist  -   that’s two sins  committed frequently over the duration of his "ministry" - two sins which are clearly condemned in the Word of God...the original God-breathed Scriptures - and I'm pretty sure stealing and lying are condemned in any Bible  translation/version too), and throw in his incompetency of handling material without any due diligence – and voila - you’ve got wierwille’s skewed theology..."drew a line in the sand which clearly separated mainstream Christianity", yup!!! controlling cults maintain their power by promoting an "us versus them" mentality...see  the psychology of cults        and for variety here's an  "us versus them" TED talk you might find interesting

...for anyone that doesn't know TWI's supposed "biblical research" was/is a sham should read Penworks' book Undertow  ...Penworks (Charlene Edge) the author of Undertow worked in TWI's research department; in her book she relates how wierwille pressured the research department to alter the translation of a word to fit with his theology - -  so much for "biblical research, which is based on the firm belief that the words in the bible as originally given by God, are truth, God breathed, whatever you want to call it."  That might be your firm belief but it certainly wasn't wierwille's.

 

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I've attended a few churches since leaving TWI. Those people are mostly Christians, not glassy eyed robots. They know a lot of the same stuff we do. But they still believe Jesus is God, that dead people aren't really dead, they don't understand incorruptible seed ( they think they can be saved one moment and unsaved the next), some of them think they might go to hell for playing outside on Sunday.

THAT should be regarded as brainwashing!

 

I think the way corps program was some intense brainwashing. one night while wierwille was sipping on his Drambuie he showed a porn video to our Family Corps – there were teens present – after which wierwille explained how he’s so spiritually mature that stuff doesn’t faze him and it shouldn’t bother any corps if you want to help others in counseling, you shouldn’t be shocked by anything...I’ll spare you all the other salacious details he got into that night...some folks think what he did and said was okay...and really some folks are still okay with anything wierwille did or said...that makes me think there's still remnants of conditioning or indoctrination in some folks. The way corps program was a delivery system for a sedative to the conscience...That should be regarded as brainwashing!   DVD Bonus feature - see  TWI's sedative to the conscience     and  four new way corps students meet wierwille for the first time   - if I'm not mistaken I think that scene was the four of them approaching the chapel entrance at the Rome City campus.

"They know a lot of the same stuff we do. But they still believe Jesus is God, that dead people aren't really dead, they don't understand incorruptible seed ( they think they can be saved one moment and unsaved the next), some of them think they might go to hell for playing outside on Sunday." ... People who think they might go to hell for playing outside on Sunday at least they have some sense of morality...I’d rather hangout with some Trinitarian who sees dead people, is not sure if he's going to heaven and absolutely refuses to play touch football on Sunday - than a lying thieving hypocritical delusional drunkard like wierwille who had a penchant for showing off his porn collection...  visual aid for "I see dead people"

 

Quote

People don't join cults because they're "brainwashed"...they join because they want more substance than they're ever going to get from their church. Not everybody feels that way, but, obviously, enough people do so there will always be small religions that spring up which bigotted mainstream ministers will be likely to label as "cults".

 

 

I can't imagine someone knowingly joining a harmful cult...I don't assume people are that stupid. Often people are attracted to a cult for some innocuous reason like the cult claims to answer all your tough questions about life, or claim their classes, teachings, secrets or whatever will increase one’s good fortune... the attraction could just be a desire to fit in – to belong...to be a part of something bigger than themselves...also common in a lot of harmful cults is the romance-phase with new recruits – a lot of love-bombing goes on.  see  Psychology Today article on love-bombing

see also why normal people join cults and why they stay

and   why did they join a cult?

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I wonder if Mike has seen this?  What's his take on it?

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"Well, if I'm going to comment, I need to sit through it. "

[OK, 12 minutes isn't that long, but it's long enough to analyze and to make observations about the content or the presentation. What did you get from it?]

 

"This video is nothing more than a guy thinking evil and going on a 12 minute rant about it. There's more. You can tell by listening to his vocal flow, that he's obsessed. He's run those thoughts through his mind rapid fire for decades. Martindale wasn't that bad when he talked about Jews and homos. Even VPs teaching 'the way of life and death' wasn't that out of control. The guy's a whack job. "

 

[That's a gross MIScharacterization of this video. I know, because I just watched it, and the presentation is completely different from your claims.  The speaker was calm and kept to his points. There was no "rant". Furthermore, there was no indication from his speech that he was "obsessed."  As a student of Psychology AND Human Communication,  I've studied this out before.  There's no "vocal flow" of "obsessed" there.    He spoke calmly-  and you said he was worse than men who were known to scream AND hurl insults at everyone they disagreed with.  This man "disagreed without being disagreeable."  All of that CAN be catalogued independently of the content.  That you missed the mark so completely reflects a lack of understanding of making such an analysis, and an inability to separate his message (of which you disapprove) from his presentation (which you distorted because it contains a message you dislike. I try not to do that even of people I strongly dislike.  ]

 

"Victor Paul Wierwille's Power for abundant living class did indeed do one thing very well.....it drew a line in the sand which clearly separated mainstream Christianity, which is STILL based on man made traditions not found in scripture...from biblical research, which is based on the firm belief that the words in the bible as originally given by God, are truth, God breathed, whatever you want to call it. "

 

[The "line in the sand" was between all other Christians- who were maligned and insulted at every turn, characterized as ignorant and useless-  and vpw and his students, who were characterized as the ONLY Christians who knew anything and were any good for anything.   "Them" were characterized as unable to read the Bible or see anything past their traditions, and "us" were characterized as the only Christians with The Truth because we had vpw's "God-given" understanding of the Bible, and no traditions of our own.   Those are ALL demonstrably false, all the way down to twi having made its own traditions.    An inability to see the distinction DECADES LATER does NOT do you credit.]

 

"I've attended a few churches since leaving TWI. Those people are mostly Christians, not glassy eyed robots. They know a lot of the same stuff we do. "

 

[Yes!  They're people "FOR WHOM CHRIST DIED."  As are you.]

"But they still believe Jesus is God, that dead people aren't really dead, they don't understand incorruptible seed ( they think they can be saved one moment and unsaved the next), some of them think they might go to hell for playing outside on Sunday. THAT should be regarded as brainwashing! "

 

[ It's shocking how UNimportant those are in the scheme of things.  If you obey Jesus because he answers directly to God, says exactly what God would say, and commands your fealty as your lord who is The Son of God,  or if you obey Jesus because he is God the Son himself,  the results from your end work out the same!  If you obey God because you love Him and want to make Him proud of you, or if you obey God because you believe it's mandatory, the results from your end work out the same!  Although, in fairness, under vpw's system, actually obeying God is less likely because it's given a LOW PRIORITY.  As for "brainwashing", you don't understand the concept if that's what you think.]

 

"People don't join cults because they're "brainwashed"...they join because they want more substance than they're ever going to get from their church. Not everybody feels that way, but, obviously, enough people do so there will always be small religions that spring up which bigotted mainstream ministers will be likely to label as "cults". "

 

]People don't ALL join cults for ONE reason or the SAME reason. Some do join because they are brainwashed.  Also, people IN cults who are still in the honeymoon phase really do think what it's like inside is superior to everything else outside, like all the churches out there.    If you don't understand what brainwashing is, nor cults, you're not going to be able to tell the difference between a small church and a cult.  BTW, vpw was fond of making them sound synonymous because that served his purposes. You don't need to fall for that anymore.]

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23 hours ago, johniam said:

Well, if I'm going to comment, I need to sit through it. This video is nothing more than a guy thinking evil and going on a 12 minute rant about it. There's more. You can tell by listening to his vocal flow, that he's obsessed. He's run those thoughts through his mind rapid fire for decades. Martindale wasn't that bad when he talked about Jews and homos. Even VPs teaching 'the way of life and death' wasn't that out of control. The guy's a whack job.

Victor Paul Wierwille's Power for abundant living class did indeed do one thing very well.....it drew a line in the sand which clearly separated mainstream Christianity, which is STILL based on man made traditions not found in scripture...from biblical research, which is based on the firm belief that the words in the bible as originally given by God, are truth, God breathed, whatever you want to call it.

I've attended a few churches since leaving TWI. Those people are mostly Christians, not glassy eyed robots. They know a lot of the same stuff we do. But they still believe Jesus is God, that dead people aren't really dead, they don't understand incorruptible seed ( they think they can be saved one moment and unsaved the next), some of them think they might go to hell for playing outside on Sunday. THAT should be regarded as brainwashing!

People don't join cults because they're "brainwashed"...they join because they want more substance than they're ever going to get from their church. Not everybody feels that way, but, obviously, enough people do so there will always be small religions that spring up which bigotted mainstream ministers will be likely to label as "cults".

Take your best shot.

PS  Rev. Richard Thomas has fallen asleep. He had cancer for 2 years. He was 71. 

Bravo!
Good to see you still kicking, johniam! :)

Are you still swinging a squeegee?  I am, but far less now. I'm 72. 

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17 hours ago, Twinky said:

I wonder if Mike has seen this?  What's his take on it?

Yes, I saw it and commented on another thread with the same video.  I completely agree with johniam here in this thread, that J. Juiedes is on a hate trip.

I think those who did not get a good appreciation for Jesus and his love and leadership from PFAL and  TWI-1 had to work extra hard to avoid him all those years!

 We all had our Bibles open every day, and the 4 Gospels were involved. JCOP is a masterpiece at presenting the accomplishments of Jesus.  It's the syrupy sweet emotional Jesus relationship that we were taught (mostly by example) to avoid.

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4 hours ago, Mike said:

We all had our Bibles open every day, and the 4 Gospels were involved.

We were advised to avoid studying the gospels, as they were represented as being for spiritual weaklings.

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the mark and avoid still comes up in my life, I recognize it more these days,

it was drilled into me for so long, it's hard to deal with sometimes, hate it

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2 hours ago, waysider said:

We were advised to avoid studying the gospels, as they were represented as being for spiritual weaklings.

Such advice was in the minority, to actually avoid the gospels.  Maybe avoid spending too much time in them was advised, and rightly, at times. We were advised to put heavy emphasis on the Epistles, because they were so terribly ignored for centuries, even after Martin Luthor's insights.

Anyone who actually advised avoiding the Gospels must have avoided reading JCOP and JCNG and JCPS.   Like I said, I feel a person had to work very hard to miss the love and character of Jesus Christ in TWI-1.  I know I did not miss him.

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Mike, JCOP, JCNG and JCPOS are not in the Orange Book.

And - the epistles were seriously venerated; the gospels were despised.  (Yes they were, Mike!)  JCNG was pushed, as a way of distinguishing TWI from more mainline churches.  The others you mention weren't particularly promoted; they are better and more researched (but still with a lot of bias) - but much more emphasis was on the PFAL books and venerating TWI's "Promised Seed," Victor-Paul Wierwille.

And besides hardly giving the gospels a mention, the schedule, especially in the WC, was so controlled and so overburdened that there was hardly time to read anything.  Study PFAL, work, study Corps Night notes, work, study the Sunday Service, work, study the "lunchtime sharings," work, work, work, get ready for this or that ministry event...  Gospels?  You should be reading Ephesians - the breakfast of champions!

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1 hour ago, Mike said:

Such advice was in the minority, to actually avoid the gospels.  Maybe avoid spending too much time in them was advised, and rightly, at times. We were advised to put heavy emphasis on the Epistles, because they were so terribly ignored for centuries, even after Martin Luthor's insights.

Anyone who actually advised avoiding the Gospels must have avoided reading JCOP and JCNG and JCPS.   Like I said, I feel a person had to work very hard to miss the love and character of Jesus Christ in TWI-1.  I know I did not miss him.

I'm usually not so blunt, Mike, but on this one you are just plain wrong. We were taught that the gospels were more suited for the "natural man" and the epistles were more suited for people with a "spiritual understanding". No one wanted to publicly declare they weren't spiritually mature enough to handle the epistles.

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I don't ever remember any TWI leader discouraging us from reading the gospels. Yes, at times in TWI the gospels were used merely to augment the epistles, but that's better than what churches did...totally ignore the epistles. 

There is nothing that could happen in a 'so called' cult...that couldn't also happen in a 'so called' mainstream Christian church. Adolescents getting molested in a catholic church is as bad or worse than anything that could happen in a "cult".

The argument that VPs sins negate the possibility that he was right about anything is absurd...just simply not true. Imagine the most heinous crimes possible. Murder, sexual assault, theft, etc. Imagine that I, Johniam, am guilty of those. Then imagine yourself...not guilty of any of those. Each of us (myself and yourself) say that 2 plus 2 equals 4.  Am I less correct than you??? We're ALL sinners. We ALL deserve the death Jesus endured for us. That doesn't mean that any one of us cannot tell many truths.

If you don't want to fellowship with someone whom you KNOW is guilty of such and such, then you don't have to. I got into the word in 1976. If I had found out in, say, 1980 that VP was doing what he did with women, then I may have had a real problem with continuing beyond the people I knew in twig.  I really can't say conclusively how I would have responded.

Yet, much of PFAL still rings true. The doctrine has nothing directly to do with VPs lifestyle (part of it). I repeat, there's a difference between blindly following man made traditions and focusing on "what does the word really say". I believe that was VPs #1 agenda.

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Mike

quote: Good to see you still kicking, johniam! :)

Are you still swinging a squeegee?  I am, but far less now. I'm 72. 

Yeah, one day at a time. After 20 years I just quit window cleaning. My wife is wheel chair bound now. This happened maybe 4 months ago. Since then I just couldn't keep up with my work, so I quit. I collect social security benefits, so at least that's still coming in, but I quit 6 weeks ago and I still feel like I work a lot every day. I am welcome to make my services available again for window cleaning, but I'll see how this plays out. 

Good to see YOU still kicking.

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1 hour ago, johniam said:

There is nothing that could happen in a 'so called' cult...that couldn't also happen in a 'so called' mainstream Christian church. Adolescents getting molested in a catholic church is as bad or worse than anything that could happen in a "cult

"But, Mom, all the other kids are doing it."

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3 hours ago, johniam said:

 

There is nothing that could happen in a 'so called' cult...that couldn't also happen in a 'so called' mainstream Christian church. Adolescents getting molested in a catholic church is as bad or worse than anything that could happen in a "cult".

You are absolutely right – no argument there...that has been talked about before   here    and     here

 

Quote

The argument that VPs sins negate the possibility that he was right about anything is absurd...just simply not true. Imagine the most heinous crimes possible. Murder, sexual assault, theft, etc. Imagine that I, Johniam, am guilty of those. Then imagine yourself...not guilty of any of those. Each of us (myself and yourself) say that 2 plus 2 equals 4.  Am I less correct than you??? We're ALL sinners. We ALL deserve the death Jesus endured for us. That doesn't mean that any one of us cannot tell many truths.

No one is making an argument about wierwille’s sins negating the possibility that he was right about anything. Do you know what is absurd? wierwille’s flagrant disregard for the intellectual property of others, being a glory hound like it was all the fruit of his own hard work, and then using his position of power and authority to sexually assault women somehow qualifies him to remain a pastor – or to be revered as a great teacher...How does this bull$hit continue to live on? …the perpetual idolizing of wierwille…occasionally putting another coat of whitewash on his life…God forbid his hypocrisy should come to light. God forbid wierwille should be treated or understood any differently than Jerry Sandusky, Harvey Weinstein, Jeffrey Epstein, Larry Nassar...oh wait – what?!?! Is anyone shocked I mention wierwille in the same light as those slimeballs ?!?! To use wierwille’s own words from PFAL against him and his legacy “ there’s got to be something wrong with our scale of values.”

 

 

Quote

If you don't want to fellowship with someone whom you KNOW is guilty of such and such, then you don't have to. I got into the word in 1976. If I had found out in, say, 1980 that VP was doing what he did with women, then I may have had a real problem with continuing beyond the people I knew in twig.  I really can't say conclusively how I would have responded.

I’m just speculating here – but in saying you may have had a real problem with continuing - if you knew back then what you know now – it seems to me you’ve developed a tolerance for wierwille’s bad behavior.


 

Quote

Yet, much of PFAL still rings true. The doctrine has nothing directly to do with VPs lifestyle (part of it). I repeat, there's a difference between blindly following man made traditions and focusing on "what does the word really say". I believe that was VPs #1 agenda.

It would help if you were more specific on what these man made traditions are. Are you talking about if Jesus Christ is God or not and stuff like are the dead alive now? That’s issues of doctrine and we could go on forever with a battle of verses to prove this or that...Honestly, I don’t get hung up in stuff like that...but I have to strongly disagree with you on wierwille’s #1 agenda being "what does the word really say" – because of his hypocrisy. I’ve heard him teach on passages like  Matthew 15: 18-20  or  Hebrews 13:4  that mentions adultery – and he said it was talking about spiritual adultery – i.e. shacking up with other Gods...even in PFAL, when he talks about the two great commandments he leaves it open to one’s own interpretation on what’s forbidden. He said “as long as you love God and love your neighbor you can do as you full well please.” ...oh gee - is that what "The Word" really says? give me a break... ...wierwille’s #1 agenda was “what does the word really say”? Naw - I don’t think so.

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13 hours ago, Mike said:

Yes, I saw it and commented on another thread with the same video.  I completely agree with johniam here in this thread, that J. Juiedes is on a hate trip.

I think those who did not get a good appreciation for Jesus and his love and leadership from PFAL and  TWI-1 had to work extra hard to avoid him all those years!

(snip)

[Two sentences there go together nicely.  There was no "hate" or "trip" or "hate trip" demonstrated in that video.  Anyone who thinks they get that from this video is obviously projecting- seeing things that aren't there because that's what they WANT to see. Why would someone so divorce themselves from reality to see a 12-minute video so completely the opposite of what it was?   In this case,  delusion allows the person who "sees" the "hate trip" to dismiss the content of the video. They have an excuse to refrain from addressing the uncomfortable issues brought up in it- so, delusion as a method of avoiding "inconvenient truths."

That's followed up here with someone who thinks that pfal and twi emphasized Jesus and his love.  Anyone who could spend time with vpw and get that is probably prone to seeing things that aren't there- like a "hate trip" in a calm video,  or compassionate altruism in a man who plagiarized and deceived to make a comfortable living, then added rape on top because he could get away with it.]

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 "I don't ever remember any TWI leader discouraging us from reading the gospels. Yes, at times in TWI the gospels were used merely to augment the epistles, but that's better than what churches did...totally ignore the epistles." 

[To this day, in ever Roman Catholic mass, there is a reading from the Epistles.  Many modern churches teach about the Epistles, and teach living like Jesus said in the Gospels AND was said in the Epistles.   There's plenty of sound doctrine in churches today.   Please remember that you are making errors in your doctrine right now because we ALL do-  bur you give yourself a pass on that and let the churches have both barrels.  In the neighborhood where I grew up, right now, there's a RC parish that walks the walk and talks the talk, teaching fairly well from the Epistles and teaching RIGHT ACTION- like helping others, and getting out in the community to actually help them!  That's something any ex-twi person should try sometime.  It's very different than just reciting Scripture and feeling superior.  Not far from where I once worked is a large Pentecostal church that teaches Scripture in a manner you'd find comfortable-  coupled with practices of The Spirit (their celebrant completely discarded the schedule for one of their services because he was advised =by revelation-  that healing was a bigger priority, so the entire service was given over for prayers for healing.)    There's definitely plenty of churches out there where the Epistles are NOT ignored.]

 

"There is nothing that could happen in a 'so called' cult...that couldn't also happen in a 'so called' mainstream Christian church. Adolescents getting molested in a catholic church is as bad or worse than anything that could happen in a "cult". "

 

[It's a disgrace either way, but the odds on it happening are much greater in a cult for many reasons, and there's methods of redress in a church whereas in a cult, the victim can be silenced and destroyed to the point of committing suicide by the cult leader (vpw certainly did that one.)

a sensible person will manage and MINIMIZE THEIR RISKS.   You can get run over when walking on the sidewalk-  but a sensible person crosses at the corners and crosswalks and waits for the traffic lights, and watches carefully as they cross.   They don't say "Well, I can get run over anytime" and just dash out into oncoming traffic!  That's a rather silly defense for being in a cult-  but it's been brought up before and refuted before.  Some people never learn.]

 

 

"The argument that VPs sins negate the possibility that he was right about anything is absurd...just simply not true. Imagine the most heinous crimes possible. Murder, sexual assault, theft, etc. Imagine that I, Johniam, am guilty of those. Then imagine yourself...not guilty of any of those. Each of us (myself and yourself) say that 2 plus 2 equals 4.  Am I less correct than you??? We're ALL sinners. We ALL deserve the death Jesus endured for us. That doesn't mean that any one of us cannot tell many truths."

 

[ It IS absurd.    BECAUSE it is absurd, I wish you pro-vpw people would stop inventing that one and putting it in people's mouths!   NOBODY claimed that to any of you. I even ran a poll a long time ago, and nobody claimed that position even under anonymity.   I've mentioned that before, as well.  Selective memory or an inability to give up a deeply-held belief?    Why would that one be "deeply held?"   Because it's ANOTHER piece of nonsense invented to cling to and hide behind when others are saying sensible, inconvenient truths.   "Oh, don't listen to them, they hold this ridiculous viewpoint!" they can say, and go back to believing all sorts of things that were successfully refuted years or decades ago.]

 

"If you don't want to fellowship with someone whom you KNOW is guilty of such and such, then you don't have to. I got into the word in 1976. If I had found out in, say, 1980 that VP was doing what he did with women, then I may have had a real problem with continuing beyond the people I knew in twig.  I really can't say conclusively how I would have responded."

{If you would have considered it AN OPTION to continue, that says a lot about the error of your walk- something taught rather extensively to you BY vpw. Surprise, surprise, he soft-pedaled the consequences of his types of sins, while still hiding them from you.]

 

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I just watched the video.  Juedes's presentation seems a bit scattershot, maybe because he was trying to cover a lot of ground in a short time, but it certainly wouldn't be considered a "rant."

I never believed that TWI was the only truth (which is probably why I got drummed out, years later).  I remember a WOW asking me if I believed TWI was "God's ministry."  I responded that I believed it was OF God, but not the only one out there.  That was an acceptable answer in the early 80's, but not after Martindale took over.  Branch adn Limb leaders had to acknowledge that Wierwille and Martindale were not infallible, but who was I to question what they had to say?

I'm glad I took PFAL (Foundational, Intermediate, and Advanced).  I did learn a lot of biblical truth which I probably wouldn't have, otherwise.  Over time, I could see that the group was more about obedience (to TWI) than devotion to God and His Son.  One of the promises on "the Green Card" was that PFAL helped one separate truth from error.  It took a while, but it did come to pass.  :wave:

George

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BTW, this "if you COULD be in danger somewhere else, it doesn't matter if you're in danger here" thing was standard vpw.  vpw made mandatory some practices that exposed women to what healthy people would consider UNACCEPTABLE RISKS.  With them hitchhiking,  some of them ended up getting raped- which should not have been a surprise if the potential for risk was even considered. 

Naturally, it got back to vpw that some women got raped as a result of following his instructions.  Did he reconsider the risks and change things to lower the risks while maintaining a program?  No, he doubled-down and told off the Corps for bringing it up.    His only comment on record about the risks of a woman getting raped as a result of being forced to hitchhike was to say that they could get raped down near their location.    The idea that one was an increased risk that was avoidable never even seemed to occur to him.   The idea that he should make reasonable efforts to keep people safe never occurred to him- people got injured or killed doing mandatory activities like rock-climbing in addition to hitchhiking (which carried risks of death and rape.)   Other Christian groups don't require those because they actually care about their students and take their LEGAL fiduciary responsibility seriously.  As for vpw, he was all talk about "loving his kids" but kept them in harms way because it was cheaper and funneled more money back to HQ where he could dip into it- and he did.

Amazingly, I've heard people defend this kind of thinking-  as if there was no way to challenge the students without placing them in risk of life, limb or rape.  It's NOT difficult, which is why non-twi groups don't have this sort of problem.  And only vpw fans insist this sort of thing is a good idea or possibly even necessary.

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As for vpw's explanation of "love God, love your neighbor, then you can do as you fool well please" was both UNINFORMATIVE and INCORRECT.  The entire purpose of that was to INSERT vpw's "private interpretation" (as he would call it)  into a verse that did not contain "do as you fool well please." The goal was to get people used to the idea that God Almighty was fine with them "doing as they fool well pleased".   However, that contradicted the actual verses.

It's so obvious.  IF you actually   A) love God Almighty with everything you've got    and B) love your neighbor like you love yourself,

then it is IMPOSSIBLE to "do as you fool well please."   

Your actions will reflect pleasing God and being a good neighbor and making God and neighbor happy.   And before anyone claims that just applied to someone living next door, Jesus himself clarified "who is my neighbor" with the parable of The Good Samaritan.    THAT was the example Jesus gave. 

Luke 10: 29-37   KJV

29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.

31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.

33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,

34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

 

Which was the example Jesus gave?   He found the stranger, and had him healed and taken care of at his own expense.   "Go and do thou likewise."  As for the priest and the Levite, who SUPPOSEDLY served God and avoided the stranger who needed help?   They did as they fool well pleased.   According to vpw, that was FINE- becuase he was setting the stage for himself to have free reign to do whatever he wanted to, and encourage likewise.  vpw had FAR more in common with the religious hypocrites of Jesus' day than with the disciples he CLAIMED to resemble (and insinuate he outperformed.)

 

 

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Try reading 

Matthew 23

For those who defend or make excuses for wierwille under the twisted rationalization that his bad behavior doesn’t negate the truth he taught - I say buyer beware.

 

Read Matthew 23, Jesus warned of the dangers and insidiousness of hypocrisy....yeah insidiousness... now that’s a big word. After you hear the definition “you'll love that word” it means the quality of gradually and secretly causing harm: 

Jesus tells the people “hey, you see these hypocrites - you should do as they say but not as they do” what does that mean? It means actually obeying the Word of God has a higher priority than just telling others to obey the Word of God. It’s dangerous and insidious because if you read further in Matthew 23 you see that these hypocrites go out looking for disciples to “teach” them how to be even bigger hypocrites destined for hell...season tickets to hell, folks - front row seats to the lake of fire...hell of a deal...literally...whatayasay?!?!

 

Imagine if you had a government official, a Supreme Court judge or a police officer who has sworn to uphold the laws of the land but they themselves disobey the laws  anytime it suits their fancy. What does that mean? It means they are in effect above the law. What if all government officials, judges and police officers behaved that way? And what if that was the norm? You’d have a double standard...you’d have one law “on the books” for the peons like us - and politicians, judges and cops are a law unto themselves - they can do whatever they full well please.

 

If that’s the way the world really worked - I’d say to hell with your bull$hit laws it’s better to be a politician, judge or cop.

 

Okay - back to that lying, cheating, thieving, money grubbing sexual predator known as wierwille. Why do you wierwille defenders want to grant him impunity? Is he above the moral dictates of the Word of God? He made such a big deal about the accuracy and integrity of “The Word” and that it means what it says and says what it means. But his bad behavior indicated that none of that applied to him. 

 

These wierwille defenders try to sell me on the dopey idea that God NEEDED wierwille to teach His Word to the masses!

 

If that’s the way God really works I’d say to hell with your bull$hit god and I wouldn’t be interested in “working” as a preacher for such a whimpy  fvcked up god who has to scrape the bottom of the cesspool for sales reps. If that’s really the only god out there in the cosmos  - then thanks - but no thanks , fellas - I’ll take my chances as a rank unbeliever living with  atheists, agnostics, tripped out grads, telemarketers (I never answer the phone anyway),Dead Heads, mothers against drunk pastors, butchers, bakers and candlestick makers in a great country that Superman adopted for truth, justice and the American way. Yeah, give me that old time “religion” - the rule of law...now sing it with me brethren and sistern(?) “no one is above the law” yeah sing it till the WOWs come home...oh just tell them to go home right now - leave the field...it’s a free country - dats riiiight , sing it “halls-of-justice, halls-of-justice, oh praise be to the Declaration of Independence!!!!” ...(singing stops...piano and organ stop playing)...Thank you Dorothy, thank you Rhoda...now take your Declaration of Independence and open to our favorite verse...this is our vision for all those who are freed from the tyranny of harmful cults ...the Holy Trinity of ex-cult folks - “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness”...amen and amen...you wonder what you should say to your people at a time like this...so I lick my lips...and I’m real natural...then...I move my lips, my tongue, my mouth and don’t even have to think about what to say...I let out a loud belch and call it good.

 

Hey wierwille defenders are you cringing in horror? Afraid I am blaspheming your god and he just might strike me down...like give me the COVID or something....well ...I defy your puny god with a little slingshot of reality - oh *snap* - a little pebble of truth zings into the forehead of the one-eyed-“Goliath”-golden-idol-lying-cheating-thieving-money grubbing-sexual predator-wierwille and you’d better stand back cuz the bigger the bull$hit the more you’ll have to flush - it’s a long way to New Knoxville, ya know...I said stand back - you know what happens when you’ve got the mother-of-all-turds clogging the toilet...the damn thing just won’t go down...the water is spilling over the rim...you’re in your bare feet...Twig is in 1 hour...the Tidy Bowl Man is looking at the turd from the deck of his row boat named “Lil’ Titanic “ shouting “even god can’t sink this turd”...oh the insanity of this $hitberg! 

Edited by T-Bone
Oh the insanity of insidiousness
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