quote: Maybe reread your paragraph. You say people have a choice . . . But it sounds like an ultimatum. You start off with love and end with a threat. The middle sentence feels like a lie in that context.
Enjoy it while you can is not a threat, it means while you are still alive. God always gives you a choice. He will generally let you sink or swim based on the choices you make in life. One constant choice is to ask Him for his help (wink, wink).
The mysterious and incomprehensible as uncontrollable. Mmmmph! Victor needed to MAKE it simpler to fit his shallow awareness and perception so he could then TEACH it. Hands in gloves. Mmmmph.
Teach? Teach? Teaching by repetitive rubbing. A cyclic drubbing of a bait and switch to supply and demean. An economy ego inflated through quantitative teasing. A mathematical precision of terrible de-cision.
Teach? Teach? Teaching by repetitive rubbing. A cyclic drubbing of a bait and switch to supply and demean. An economy ego inflated through quantitative teasing. A mathematical precision of terrible de-cision.
I'll give you an A for this. But I beleeeve El will give you an A+. Mmmmph.
quote: Maybe reread your paragraph. You say people have a choice . . . But it sounds like an ultimatum. You start off with love and end with a threat. The middle sentence feels like a lie in that context.
Enjoy it while you can is not a threat, it means while you are still alive. God always gives you a choice. He will generally let you sink or swim based on the choices you make in life. One constant choice is to ask Him for his help (wink, wink).
The parable of the prodigal son bothered me for a long time. He definitely enjoyed it while he could. Then he couldn't and it turned out fine.
As I said, he is no longer free. He now has what amounts to an unpardonable death sentence, and he KNOWS it. He also knows that one day in the future (still future) one of his people will rise up to great power and authority over all the earth. Most Christians call this person 'the antichrist'. Technically, the bible doesn't ever call him 'the' antichrist; the bible says there are many antichrists and this person will just be one of the many. However, the bible Does call him the "man of sin". He is also called the "son of perdition". It is said of him that he will "oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God" and he will "sit in the temple of God showing himself that HE IS GOD". AHA! The antichrist is going to be a man who SAYS he's God.
I found it fascinating, some time ago, to look over the Greek texts of those verses. It called him the "man of sinS", plural. I thought it was interesting that "man" there was "anthropos". He will be "the son of ruin", a title used in reference to Judas Iscariot. He will sit in the HOLY OF HOLIES of God, that is, the temple's separated area consecrated to God and representing His Presence. He will sit in the Holy of Holies of God Almighty. and "set forth that he is God." He will CLAIM he's God.
Knowing all of that, why AUTOMATICALLY assume this will proceed DIRECTLY from the Trinity? Don't you know other religions and philosophies, ones that claim either that you shall be as God or that you already are? I'm suspicious that the use of "anthropos" there might suggest someone pushing a "perfectability of man" doctrine, where any man might potentially become A god. Instead of something strictly Hindu, say, I'd look for some newer, fusion of Hindu and other doctrines.
Come on. The Greeks and Romans had ideas about men becoming gods- like Hercules/Heracles to the Greeks, and the Roman Emperor to the Romans (he got temples and everything.) A guy who was a big deal was promoted to a god. We know that the early church felt in competition with the Greco-Roman religion. There were rumors that, when Julius Caesar died, the dead rose from their graves and walked around in the streets. (Shakespeare mentions it in Hamlet, so it was well-known when he wrote that play.) Some Christians decided to "compete", and, next thing you know, during the earthquake at the moment of Jesus' death, we got a reference to the dead rising, and that crudely inserted into the text in a jarring way. (Things that supposedly take place weeks later are shoved into a single verse before they happened, and when they actually happened, NOBODY mentioned it. Secular writers had no mention of it. It's not in Acts, nor mentioned in books about saints and martyrs.
Maybe you're worried about the wrong thing with the man of sinS, this General Practitioner of sinfulness.
The parable of the prodigal son bothered me for a long time. He definitely enjoyed it while he could. Then he couldn't and it turned out fine.
Keeping with the theme of this thread:
The prodigal son lived large and squandered his assets. His older brother was outraged and called him a liability.
In the Bourne movies a highly trained assassin-for-hire is called an asset. But hiring the asset means money is flowing out – so then, the asset is a liability?
A cult-leader might consider followers assets because they put money in his pocket on a regular basis. On the other hand, a cult-leader is a liability if his bad behavior is exposed…Note: exposing oneself is a whole other type of bad behavior.
Keeping with the theme of this thread:
The prodigal son lived large and squandered his assets. His older brother was outraged and called him a liability.
In the Bourne movies a highly trained assassin-for-hire is called an asset. But hiring the asset means money is flowing out – so then, the asset is a liability?
A cult-leader might consider followers assets because they put money in his pocket on a regular basis. On the other hand, a cult-leader is a liability if his bad behavior is exposed…Note: exposing oneself is a whole other type of bad behavior.
Well okay, Trinity in The Matrix was both a liability and an asset to Neo. There was also a colorful choice.
There’s different ways to look at it. When I first left TWI, I would read verses like this and figure well maybe TWI wasn’t all that bad – at least they’re preaching Christ. But over time - the more I analyzed TWI doctrine the more I realized that Christ is essentially absent in their ideology.
So, I don’t think Paul was addressing pseudo-Christian cults here.
I think he may have been speaking to the issue of ambitious leaders who wanted to make a name for themselves. I get the idea they were still preaching Christ – which is the priority.
Maybe this is getting into shades of gray with motives.
Setting aside the issue of TWI’s twisted doctrine for a moment: I knew a lot of good leaders in TWI – clergy who were salaried by TWI and they did a good job from the heart – they genuinely cared about people – you could tell. They truly were good shepherds but didn't know they worked for ravenous wolves. I also knew a few career-clergy. Salaried by TWI – and their service was all about building their reputations and selfish ambitions.
15 It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16 The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Philippians 1
Now, after Jesus had finished the work that his Father gave him to do, he 1) was crucified 2) was raised from the dead 3)walked on the earth for 40 days after he was raised from the dead 4) on one occasion he was seen by 500 people after he was raised from the dead 5) he ascended into heaven and 6) he poured out God's gift of holy spirit on the day of Pentecost with the result that ABOUT 3000 PEOPLE received eternal life.
This is ironic, because on the day that the law was given to Moses under the old covenant, ABOUT 3000 PEOPLE were put to death for worshipping a gold calf, an idol. On the day of Pentecost, at which time the new covenant became official, ABOUT 3000 PEOPLE were ordained unto eternal life. What about the devil?
He is no longer free. Prior to the day of Pentecost, he wanted God's people to believe that Jesus was evil. Since the day of Pentecost, he NOW wants God's people to believe that Jesus is God. Why would he change like that? He did a 180. He looks fickle. What's going on???
As I said, he is no longer free. He now has what amounts to an unpardonable death sentence, and he KNOWS it. He also knows that one day in the future (still future) one of his people will rise up to great power and authority over all the earth. Most Christians call this person 'the antichrist'. Technically, the bible doesn't ever call him 'the' antichrist; the bible says there are many antichrists and this person will just be one of the many. However, the bible Does call him the "man of sin". He is also called the "son of perdition". It is said of him that he will "oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God" and he will "sit in the temple of God showing himself that HE IS GOD". AHA! The antichrist is going to be a man who SAYS he's God.
All those idiots and fools will believe him, in small part because of the 'lying signs and wonders' he will do, and in much larger part because of the trinity. Many of those people will figure that if God came as a man once, then He could do it again. The trinity promotes the belief that God came as a man once. The trinity is the welcoming committee and the public relations machine for the antichrist. The trinity is a perpetual reminder that..."Haleluia, the antichrist is coming".
In light of the doctrine of the Trinity, there’s also another way to analyze this “game plan”.
Your statements are in bold red:
1. “Prior to the day of Pentecost, he wanted God's people to believe that Jesus was evil. Since the day of Pentecost, he NOW wants God's people to believe that Jesus is God. Why would he change like that? He did a 180.” There are some misconceptions in your statement. One, you’re assuming you know what the devil wanted. Two, you’re ignoring the more obvious reason for what changed people’s perception of Jesus Christ...it was his resurrection!
~ ~ ~ ~
2. “Prior to the day of Pentecost… Since the day of Pentecost…” your time reference is close…but sorry, no cigar…From his birth to the cross, Jesus Christ’s divinity was not fully revealed. But AFTER the resurrection is a whole other story:
24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.” 26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”John 20: 24 - 28 …and for good measure I refer Grease Spotters to Bible Hub Commentaries: John 20:28 where at least 12 exegetical and expository commentaries concur that the natural meaning of Thomas’ exclamation “My Lord and My God” was a bold confession that his Lord was also his God. see also: The divinity of Christ in the Gospels and Jesus’ Divinity in the Gospels
~ ~ ~ ~
3. It seems logical that the devil might want to imitate the “resurrection factor” because that is what changed people’s perception of Jesus Christ (see point 2) . In Revelation 13 that appears to be the devil’s game plan: 11 Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. 12 It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13 And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. 14 Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
Most commentaries seem to be in agreement that the "Satanic trinity" is:
In my humble opinion, there is a literary trinity of sorts with John 14 , John 15 , and John 16 …three concentrated and consecrated chapters that are like a doctrine of the Christian life…unfolding in the outworking of the Holy Trinity.
Conclusion: sometime in the future, the devil plagiarizes the Trinity, the resurrection, and with lying signs and wonders fools a lot of people. I tend to think a believer submitting to the outworking of the Holy Trinity would have an advantage in the end times – since yielding to God’s purpose, ways and means would put one on God’s side...He will help believers discern the counterfeit unholy trinity ...and He will also strengthen them for the battles ahead…to remain neutral in the fight is to lose! ...so to circle back to answering the question in the thread title: The Holy Trinity is an asset if you’re on Team Holy Trinity…the unholy trinity is a liability if you’re on Team 3 Bad Amigos.
Edited by T-Bone T-Bone's trinity: my dumb ideas, the editor, the post - aka Me, Myself, and I
quote: This is a logical fallacy. How do you know what his motives were and how do you know what he wanted people to believe? Chapter and verse please.
2 Cor. 2:11 - Lest satan should get an advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices.
Luke 22:31 - And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat.
John 14:12 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
We are not ignorant of satan's devices, Jesus knew what satan wanted, and he said we could too. The reason you don't believe that us "lowly Christians" can do the works Jesus did is because you think He's God!
Ok I’ll post. The trinity was an asset to VP as it is a mainstream doctrine that is not clearly defined, and the mystery imagery accepted on faith by many denominations is confusing.
As such this represented a main area to draw followers away from their churches in the 60s as opposed to taking his classes and keeping their loyalty to their home churches.
By taking a hard line stance on the trinity and dead alive they could deepen that into conspiracy theory in the advanced class and plant seeds of doubt by teaching that all major heads of denominations are born of the seed of the serpent.
That proved to be enough to tear people away from their churches. Attack the trinity, isolate students on the farm for some brainwashing, get them to believe they are some kind of Star Wars rebel alliance fighting the evil Empire. That proved to be enough to extract people from the Christian brethren in their churches and give up their money and allegiance to follow the pied piper Wierwille into a life of meaning moving the Word over the World.
I would say for VP the trinity was a major asset in selling the long con.
Ok I’ll post. The trinity was an asset to VP as it is a mainstream doctrine that is not clearly defined, and the mystery imagery accepted on faith by many denominations is confusing.
As such this represented a main area to draw followers away from their churches in the 60s as opposed to taking his classes and keeping their loyalty to their home churches.
By taking a hard line stance on the trinity and dead alive they could deepen that into conspiracy theory in the advanced class and plant seeds of doubt by teaching that all major heads of denominations are born of the seed of the serpent.
That proved to be enough to tear people away from their churches. Attack the trinity, isolate students on the farm for some brainwashing, get them to believe they are some kind of Star Wars rebel alliance fighting the evil Empire. That proved to be enough to extract people from the Christian brethren in their churches and give up their money and allegiance to follow the pied piper Wierwille into a life of meaning moving the Word over the World.
I would say for VP the trinity was a major asset in selling the long con.
I see this and think VPW was more a scavenger than a predator. The other groups failed to fill their role, and did not protect their own. In another context he would have not had success.
quote: This is a logical fallacy. How do you know what his motives were and how do you know what he wanted people to believe? Chapter and verse please.
2 Cor. 2:11 - Lest satan should get an advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices.
Luke 22:31 - And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat.
John 14:12 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
We are not ignorant of satan's devices, Jesus knew what satan wanted, and he said we could too. The reason you don't believe that us "lowly Christians" can do the works Jesus did is because you think He's God!
Hey, I don’t mean to be snarky, Johniam – but when I asked for chapter and verse, I assumed you would offer a passage that actually supports your point.
If you click on this hyperlink > II Corinthians 2:11 you’ll see many versions use the word “schemes” instead of “devices”. To spare you the atrocity of my verbosity I’m not going to get into the Greek - and since the English words convey something close to the same idea I’ll just expand on these two English words - NEITHER of which supports YOUR idea that we know what Satan WANTS…what MOTIVATED him…his MOTIVES…“Device” – gadget, an explosive weapon, a plan, a method, a design…“Scheme” – strategy, program, plan, plot, conspire, a combination of elements that are connected, adjusted, and integrated by design.
If I had to make a case for Satan's MOTIVE, I’d use something like Isaiah 14: 12 -14 - note willful intent is mentioned five times in the following:
How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.” I think that’s pretty good evidence to prove MOTIVE. If I may beg the court’s indulgence, I’d like to revisit my previous post > herethe devil plagiarizing the Trinity, the resurrection, the use of lying signs and wonders as the MEANS to make himself like the Most High.
Jesus may have referenced Isaiah 14: 12, when he said in Luke 10:18 I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven and Revelation 12 may also allude to that catastrophic event - “Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth.”
~ ~ ~ ~
Now about your statement “The reason you don't believe that us "lowly Christians" can do the works Jesus did is because you think He's God!”
… Geez what a pontificating thing to say! Let’s break that down with more questions:
1. HOW do YOU know the reason?
2. HOW do YOU know what I believe and don’t believe?
3. WHEN did I ever make reference to “us lowly Christians”?
4. WHAT gave YOU the impression that I think He’s God?
5. HOW do YOU know what I think?
If I may beg the court’s indulgence one more time by referencing my first post on this thread > here – under point # 7 where I tried to express some of how I understand the Trinity “ For me the Trinity is shorthand referring to how God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit work together. I didn’t say they’re identical / one and the same - nor do I see them portrayed that way in Scripture. So while the word Trinity is not found in Scripture - the concept of the Godhead is - which blends together God's transcendence and immanence.” Not there nor anywhere outside this thread have I ever said I think Jesus Christ the Son of God is the same as or identical to God the Father. That may be how YOU mischaracterize the doctrine of the Trinity. That’s YOUR problem and NOT mine.
And as far as the greater works of John 14:12 I don’t think Jesus meant greater works referring to power but in SCOPE. Believers would become witnesses to ALL THE WORLD through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit – reaffirmed by his words in Acts 1:8.
Edited by T-Bone I think my editor is ignorant of his own devices :)
Is there a trinity of moderators? Do they work together as one? Or are they pros - distinctly separate, yet not the same?
We are not together. We hardly see each other.
And we are most certainly distinctly independent.
We're down to two active moderators [modgellan and myself]. I am Raf. I know it's confusing, but whether I post as Raf or modcat5 now depends almost ENTIRELY on which device I'm using. If it's Raf, I'm using my laptop. If it's Modcat5, I'm using my phone.
Modgellan is safely anonymous.
Pawtucket still runs the show and pays the bills and can run us out of town on a whim.
GreasyTech, who has mod authority, is always on call to fix things up when the site goes down.
So that makes 4 of us.
Modgellan and I do not have a system. We check on reports when we check on them; whoever logs in first. He moved this thread. I just saw it. Excellent, thoughtful work by everyone.
We're down to two active moderators [modgellan and myself]. I am Raf. I know it's confusing, but whether I post as Raf or modcat5 now depends almost ENTIRELY on which device I'm using. If it's Raf, I'm using my laptop. If it's Modcat5, I'm using my phone.
Modgellan is safely anonymous.
Pawtucket still runs the show and pays the bills and can run us out of town on a whim.
GreasyTech, who has mod authority, is always on call to fix things up when the site goes down.
So that makes 4 of us.
Modgellan and I do not have a system. We check on reports when we check on them; whoever logs in first. He moved this thread. I just saw it. Excellent, thoughtful work by everyone.
Thanks, Raf. For everything.
it's not confusing at all. It's not three like the trinity, but four like the crucified.
I get it. It fits. Like a hand in a glove.
Edited by Nathan_Jr You don't need to know about hermeneutics or exegesis, victor doesn't, either.
I have a purpose for everything I say, why I say it, how come I say it, for what reason I say it, my motive in saying it and what I want to accomplish by saying it.
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johniam
When the devil tempted Jesus, as recorded in both Matthew chapter 4 and in Luke chapter 4, he offered Jesus "all the kingdoms of this world and the glory of them". He further stated that those things
T-Bone
This thread belongs in doctrinal forum. But for now, I’ll throw my 2 cents in while it’s hot off the press. note your words are in bold red 1. “Prior to the day of Penteco
Bolshevik
Hi Johniam, Maybe reread your paragraph. You say people have a choice . . . But it sounds like an ultimatum. You start off with love and end with a threat. The middle sentence feels like a li
johniam
quote: Maybe reread your paragraph. You say people have a choice . . . But it sounds like an ultimatum. You start off with love and end with a threat. The middle sentence feels like a lie in that context.
Enjoy it while you can is not a threat, it means while you are still alive. God always gives you a choice. He will generally let you sink or swim based on the choices you make in life. One constant choice is to ask Him for his help (wink, wink).
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Bolshevik
Teach? Teach? Teaching by repetitive rubbing. A cyclic drubbing of a bait and switch to supply and demean. An economy ego inflated through quantitative teasing. A mathematical precision of terrible de-cision.
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Nathan_Jr
I'll give you an A for this. But I beleeeve El will give you an A+. Mmmmph.
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Bolshevik
A lot of Hebrew names end in El. God Cain-do what he is Abel.
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Nathan_Jr
Ooooh... ok. A++
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Bolshevik
The parable of the prodigal son bothered me for a long time. He definitely enjoyed it while he could. Then he couldn't and it turned out fine.
Edited by BolshevikGrammar is a CHOICE
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Nathan_Jr
And he never got tired. At least not so tired that he stopped believing and died.
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WordWolf
I found it fascinating, some time ago, to look over the Greek texts of those verses. It called him the "man of sinS", plural. I thought it was interesting that "man" there was "anthropos". He will be "the son of ruin", a title used in reference to Judas Iscariot. He will sit in the HOLY OF HOLIES of God, that is, the temple's separated area consecrated to God and representing His Presence. He will sit in the Holy of Holies of God Almighty. and "set forth that he is God." He will CLAIM he's God.
Knowing all of that, why AUTOMATICALLY assume this will proceed DIRECTLY from the Trinity? Don't you know other religions and philosophies, ones that claim either that you shall be as God or that you already are? I'm suspicious that the use of "anthropos" there might suggest someone pushing a "perfectability of man" doctrine, where any man might potentially become A god. Instead of something strictly Hindu, say, I'd look for some newer, fusion of Hindu and other doctrines.
Come on. The Greeks and Romans had ideas about men becoming gods- like Hercules/Heracles to the Greeks, and the Roman Emperor to the Romans (he got temples and everything.) A guy who was a big deal was promoted to a god. We know that the early church felt in competition with the Greco-Roman religion. There were rumors that, when Julius Caesar died, the dead rose from their graves and walked around in the streets. (Shakespeare mentions it in Hamlet, so it was well-known when he wrote that play.) Some Christians decided to "compete", and, next thing you know, during the earthquake at the moment of Jesus' death, we got a reference to the dead rising, and that crudely inserted into the text in a jarring way. (Things that supposedly take place weeks later are shoved into a single verse before they happened, and when they actually happened, NOBODY mentioned it. Secular writers had no mention of it. It's not in Acts, nor mentioned in books about saints and martyrs.
Maybe you're worried about the wrong thing with the man of sinS, this General Practitioner of sinfulness.
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WordWolf
It was a parable. It was meant to make a specific point by analogy- in this case, it wasn't about the prodigal son, it was about the Forgiving Father!
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T-Bone
Keeping with the theme of this thread:
The prodigal son lived large and squandered his assets. His older brother was outraged and called him a liability.
In the Bourne movies a highly trained assassin-for-hire is called an asset. But hiring the asset means money is flowing out – so then, the asset is a liability?
A cult-leader might consider followers assets because they put money in his pocket on a regular basis. On the other hand, a cult-leader is a liability if his bad behavior is exposed…Note: exposing oneself is a whole other type of bad behavior.
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Bolshevik
Well okay, Trinity in The Matrix was both a liability and an asset to Neo. There was also a colorful choice.
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T-Bone
Okay, so there were these three Trinitarians who started a business working out of their home. It was a cottage industry.
Their stock tripled in value by the third quarter, and they became trillionaires.
Now they have their own office building.
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Bolshevik
Philippians 1:15-18
Is this something?
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T-Bone
Good question.
Could be.
There’s different ways to look at it. When I first left TWI, I would read verses like this and figure well maybe TWI wasn’t all that bad – at least they’re preaching Christ. But over time - the more I analyzed TWI doctrine the more I realized that Christ is essentially absent in their ideology.
So, I don’t think Paul was addressing pseudo-Christian cults here.
I think he may have been speaking to the issue of ambitious leaders who wanted to make a name for themselves. I get the idea they were still preaching Christ – which is the priority.
Maybe this is getting into shades of gray with motives.
Setting aside the issue of TWI’s twisted doctrine for a moment: I knew a lot of good leaders in TWI – clergy who were salaried by TWI and they did a good job from the heart – they genuinely cared about people – you could tell. They truly were good shepherds but didn't know they worked for ravenous wolves. I also knew a few career-clergy. Salaried by TWI – and their service was all about building their reputations and selfish ambitions.
15 It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16 The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.
Philippians 1
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T-Bone
In light of the doctrine of the Trinity, there’s also another way to analyze this “game plan”.
Your statements are in bold red:
1. “Prior to the day of Pentecost, he wanted God's people to believe that Jesus was evil. Since the day of Pentecost, he NOW wants God's people to believe that Jesus is God. Why would he change like that? He did a 180.” There are some misconceptions in your statement. One, you’re assuming you know what the devil wanted. Two, you’re ignoring the more obvious reason for what changed people’s perception of Jesus Christ...it was his resurrection!
~ ~ ~ ~
2. “Prior to the day of Pentecost… Since the day of Pentecost…” your time reference is close…but sorry, no cigar…From his birth to the cross, Jesus Christ’s divinity was not fully revealed. But AFTER the resurrection is a whole other story:
24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.” 26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” John 20: 24 - 28 …and for good measure I refer Grease Spotters to Bible Hub Commentaries: John 20:28 where at least 12 exegetical and expository commentaries concur that the natural meaning of Thomas’ exclamation “My Lord and My God” was a bold confession that his Lord was also his God. see also: The divinity of Christ in the Gospels and Jesus’ Divinity in the Gospels
~ ~ ~ ~
3. It seems logical that the devil might want to imitate the “resurrection factor” because that is what changed people’s perception of Jesus Christ (see point 2) . In Revelation 13 that appears to be the devil’s game plan:
11 Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. 12 It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13 And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. 14 Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
Most commentaries seem to be in agreement that the "Satanic trinity" is:
see also:
Bible.org: Satan's trinity
Bible Helps: Satanic trinity in final conflict
Got Questions.org: what is the unholy trinity in the end times?
In my humble opinion, there is a literary trinity of sorts with John 14 , John 15 , and John 16 …three concentrated and consecrated chapters that are like a doctrine of the Christian life…unfolding in the outworking of the Holy Trinity.
the Trinity, the resurrection, and with lying signs and wonders fools a lot of people. I tend to think a believer submitting to the outworking of the Holy Trinity would have an advantage in the end times – since yielding to God’s purpose, ways and means would put one on God’s side...He will help believers discern the counterfeit unholy trinity ...and He will also strengthen them for the battles ahead…to remain neutral in the fight is to lose! ...so to circle back to answering the question in the thread title: The Holy Trinity is an asset if you’re on Team Holy Trinity…the unholy trinity is a liability if you’re on Team 3 Bad Amigos.
Edited by T-BoneConclusion: sometime in the future, the devil plagiarizes
T-Bone's trinity: my dumb ideas, the editor, the post - aka Me, Myself, and I
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johniam
quote: This is a logical fallacy. How do you know what his motives were and how do you know what he wanted people to believe? Chapter and verse please.
2 Cor. 2:11 - Lest satan should get an advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices.
Luke 22:31 - And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat.
John 14:12 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
We are not ignorant of satan's devices, Jesus knew what satan wanted, and he said we could too. The reason you don't believe that us "lowly Christians" can do the works Jesus did is because you think He's God!
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oldiesman
I don't think the working of miracles is contingent upon believe in the Trinity but it'd be interesting to find anything written by VPW on that one.
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chockfull
Ok I’ll post. The trinity was an asset to VP as it is a mainstream doctrine that is not clearly defined, and the mystery imagery accepted on faith by many denominations is confusing.
As such this represented a main area to draw followers away from their churches in the 60s as opposed to taking his classes and keeping their loyalty to their home churches.
By taking a hard line stance on the trinity and dead alive they could deepen that into conspiracy theory in the advanced class and plant seeds of doubt by teaching that all major heads of denominations are born of the seed of the serpent.
That proved to be enough to tear people away from their churches. Attack the trinity, isolate students on the farm for some brainwashing, get them to believe they are some kind of Star Wars rebel alliance fighting the evil Empire. That proved to be enough to extract people from the Christian brethren in their churches and give up their money and allegiance to follow the pied piper Wierwille into a life of meaning moving the Word over the World.
I would say for VP the trinity was a major asset in selling the long con.
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Bolshevik
I see this and think VPW was more a scavenger than a predator. The other groups failed to fill their role, and did not protect their own. In another context he would have not had success.
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waysider
"I have secret knowledge that others don't"......VPW (sort of)
This approach is pretty standard fare for cults, in general.
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T-Bone
Hey, I don’t mean to be snarky, Johniam – but when I asked for chapter and verse, I assumed you would offer a passage that actually supports your point.
If you click on this hyperlink > II Corinthians 2:11 you’ll see many versions use the word “schemes” instead of “devices”. To spare you the atrocity of my verbosity
I love thriller movies where the investigation or court proceedings get into the trinity-of-pointing-fingers award: means, motive and opportunity. See articles in Psychology Today: Means, Motive, and Opportunity , City Security Magazine: Cyber security: motive, method, opportunity and Criminal Justice 101: Means, Motive, and Opportunity . But I will grant you this - your citation of II Cor. 2:11 would best be used to show MEANS…an action, system, or process, financial resources – but NOT MOTIVE.
If I had to make a case for Satan's MOTIVE, I’d use something like Isaiah 14: 12 -14 - note willful intent is mentioned five times in the following:
How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.” I think that’s pretty good evidence to prove MOTIVE. If I may beg the court’s indulgence, I’d like to revisit my previous post > here the devil plagiarizing the Trinity, the resurrection, the use of lying signs and wonders as the MEANS to make himself like the Most High.
Jesus may have referenced Isaiah 14: 12, when he said in Luke 10:18 I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven and Revelation 12 may also allude to that catastrophic event - “Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth.”
~ ~ ~ ~
Now about your statement “The reason you don't believe that us "lowly Christians" can do the works Jesus did is because you think He's God!”
… Geez what a pontificating thing to say! Let’s break that down with more questions:
1. HOW do YOU know the reason?
2. HOW do YOU know what I believe and don’t believe?
3. WHEN did I ever make reference to “us lowly Christians”?
4. WHAT gave YOU the impression that I think He’s God?
5. HOW do YOU know what I think?
If I may beg the court’s indulgence one more time by referencing my first post on this thread > here – under point # 7 where I tried to express some of how I understand the Trinity “ For me the Trinity is shorthand referring to how God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit work together. I didn’t say they’re identical / one and the same - nor do I see them portrayed that way in Scripture. So while the word Trinity is not found in Scripture - the concept of the Godhead is - which blends together God's transcendence and immanence.” Not there nor anywhere outside this thread have I ever said I think Jesus Christ the Son of God is the same as or identical to God the Father. That may be how YOU mischaracterize the doctrine of the Trinity. That’s YOUR problem and NOT mine.
Edited by T-BoneAnd as far as the greater works of John 14:12 I don’t think Jesus meant greater works referring to power but in SCOPE. Believers would become witnesses to ALL THE WORLD through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit – reaffirmed by his words in Acts 1:8.
I think my editor is ignorant of his own devices :)
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modcat5
We are not together. We hardly see each other.
And we are most certainly distinctly independent.
We're down to two active moderators [modgellan and myself]. I am Raf. I know it's confusing, but whether I post as Raf or modcat5 now depends almost ENTIRELY on which device I'm using. If it's Raf, I'm using my laptop. If it's Modcat5, I'm using my phone.
Modgellan is safely anonymous.
Pawtucket still runs the show and pays the bills and can run us out of town on a whim.
GreasyTech, who has mod authority, is always on call to fix things up when the site goes down.
So that makes 4 of us.
Modgellan and I do not have a system. We check on reports when we check on them; whoever logs in first. He moved this thread. I just saw it. Excellent, thoughtful work by everyone.
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Nathan_Jr
Thanks, Raf. For everything.
it's not confusing at all. It's not three like the trinity, but four like the crucified.
I get it. It fits. Like a hand in a glove.
Edited by Nathan_JrYou don't need to know about hermeneutics or exegesis, victor doesn't, either.
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modcat5
I have a purpose for everything I say, why I say it, how come I say it, for what reason I say it, my motive in saying it and what I want to accomplish by saying it.
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